/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-11-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 09 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  4. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I just put scoping into the cascade spec. It... seems almost too easy. ^_^ Check it out? All I did was add a note in the filtering section, and add a step in the cascade.
  5. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> I didn't end up defining anything further in this spec, instead just linking to Selectors4.
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  9. # [00:17] <fantasai> ไทย
  10. # [00:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: okay, I'll look it over
  11. # [00:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm not surprised it was easy
  12. # [00:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: given the structure we put in the spec :)
  13. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  14. # [00:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: should the root element and the document be two different scopes?
  15. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Good question. I guess not?
  16. # [00:19] * fantasai isn't sure
  17. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> (Also, the document and the root element don't strictly have a parent/child relationship, which would make this more complicated.)
  18. # [00:19] <fantasai> ....
  19. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> (Well, I'd just have to define that unscoped declarations are ancestors of all scoped declarations.)
  20. # [00:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't think linking to Selectors 4 is the way to define scoped style sheets...
  21. # [00:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: it just defines scoped *selectors*
  22. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, sure. We will need a section defining how a scoped stylesheet scopes all of its selectors.
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  24. # [00:21] <fantasai> Not sure how to go about it
  25. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Actually, that might belong in Selectors, then.
  26. # [00:22] <fantasai> might have a separate module that defines scoped style sheets
  27. # [00:22] <fantasai> maybe defines a CSS syntax for them
  28. # [00:22] <fantasai> and normatively references Selectors 4 and Cascade 3
  29. # [00:22] * fantasai isn't sure yet
  30. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> That'd work too.
  31. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> We can put the question to the group real quick, or I can let you think about it.
  32. # [00:23] <fantasai> Let's think about it for a bit
  33. # [00:24] * fantasai has to think about Text today, tough
  34. # [00:24] <fantasai> s/tough/though/
  35. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> No problem.
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  38. # [00:47] <fantasai> 日本語とการเขียนภาษาไทยand中国子
  39. # [00:51] <glenn> CJT ?
  40. # [00:51] <glenn> but rather mixed syntax
  41. # [00:54] <glenn> nihongo to gor khien pasa thai zhongguo zi
  42. # [00:55] <fantasai> และ<nobr>การเขียน·ภาษาไทย</nobr>
  43. # [00:56] <fantasai> glenn: yeah, mostly non-sense mixed script text :)
  44. # [00:56] <fantasai> glenn: trying to demonstrate all the text-justify values in one or two lines of example...
  45. # [00:56] <glenn> nice
  46. # [00:57] <glenn> i'm lucky i can read nihongo, pasa thai, and hanyu to figure out the example
  47. # [00:57] <fantasai> handy
  48. # [00:57] <fantasai> is the last line I pasted remotely sensical? :)
  49. # [00:58] <glenn> yes
  50. # [00:58] <fantasai> yay!
  51. # [00:59] * fantasai is cutting and splicing bits of other examples to make this one
  52. # [01:00] <glenn> though i would suggest dropping การ which can mean "to shit", better just write และ<nobr>เขียน·ภาษาไทย</nobr>
  53. # [01:02] <glenn> ruu khien pasa thai (and write thai)
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  55. # [01:06] <fantasai> glenn: Any suggestions for shortening the part inside <nobr>?
  56. # [01:07] <glenn> as i suggest, you can use เขียน·ภาษาไทย (write thai) inside nobr
  57. # [01:08] <fantasai> yeah, more than that I mean
  58. # [01:08] <glenn> of course, one can break between เขียน (write) and ภาษาไทย (thai) in normally layout, though generally one doesn't break between ภาษา (language) and ไทย (thai)
  59. # [01:09] <glenn> you can eliminate เขียน (write) if you wish
  60. # [01:10] <glenn> just retaining ภาษาไทย
  61. # [01:10] <fantasai> และ<nobr>ภาษาไทย</nobr> ?
  62. # [01:11] <glenn> ok, which means "and" <nobr> "thai" </nobr>
  63. # [01:13] * fantasai is going to have you sanity-check the final text once we've garbled it all sufficiently from a layout perspective :)
  64. # [01:14] <glenn> fyi, "thai" is 泰国话 or 泰国语
  65. # [01:15] <fantasai> in Chinese?
  66. # [01:15] <glenn> yep
  67. # [01:15] <fantasai> useful to know :)
  68. # [01:15] <glenn> taiguohua or taiguoyu
  69. # [01:15] <fantasai> we went with kana in this particular example, because Koji was typing. ;)
  70. # [01:16] <fantasai> Trying to get IE to give us usable screenshots, but it's pretty bad at mixing Thai with other scripts and justifying correctly....
  71. # [01:16] <glenn> and probably WK too... i'm in W3C Performance Workshop just now (Google Mtn View)
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  75. # [01:33] <fantasai> glenn: reload http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-justify ?
  76. # [01:33] <glenn> looking
  77. # [01:36] <glenn> inter-cluster (2nd example) seems wrong for the thai
  78. # [01:37] <glenn> but not sure how cluster is intended to be defined in this context
  79. # [01:39] <glenn> if cluster is supposed to be syllable, then the 2nd line of 2nd example would be something like ภา ษา ไทย
  80. # [01:40] <fantasai> koji_: http://rishida.net/docs/unicode-tutorial/part5
  81. # [01:40] <fantasai> glenn: I don't think it's supposed to be syllable, I think it's supposed to be grapheme cluster
  82. # [01:42] <fantasai> glenn: The one thing I know is that the examples in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#word-break are correct
  83. # [01:42] <glenn> ok
  84. # [01:42] <fantasai> glenn: if the expectation is to break at all those points for break-all, then I assume expanding at those points is also correct
  85. # [01:42] <glenn> so it depends on whether vowels are supposed to be considered as part of cluster or distinct
  86. # [01:42] <fantasai> glenn: I don't have my Thai books with me to double-check, but I don't recally that what looked like a "character" to me (being totally untrained in Thai)
  87. # [01:43] <fantasai> s/don't recally/recall/
  88. # [01:43] <fantasai> was what was spaced out
  89. # [01:44] * fantasai picked up some random books on a trip to Beijing in 2007
  90. # [01:44] <glenn> in this example text, there are two vowels sara aa, which is nominally considered non-combining by unicode (i.e., there is no dotted circle)
  91. # [01:45] <glenn> and there is also sara ai maimalai
  92. # [01:45] <glenn> U+0E44
  93. # [01:46] <glenn> which also is not shown in Unicode as combining (i.e., does not have a dotted circle), but just happens to (visually) precede the consonant it (phonetically) follows
  94. # [01:47] <glenn> so, i guess if the definition of GC treats these as separate (non-combining) chars, then the example would be correct
  95. # [01:47] <glenn> it might be useful to have an example from thai which makes use of a combining vowel mark
  96. # [01:49] <glenn> e.g., พระพุทธเจ้า (buddha) has two combining marks
  97. # [01:49] <fantasai> I believe that would be split up as พ ร ะ พุ ท ธ เ จ้ า
  98. # [01:50] <glenn> yes, that would be consistent
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  104. # [02:12] <fantasai> glenn: The definition currently specifies that spacing happens between grapheme clusters, and defers to Unicode on what a grapheme cluster is
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  106. # [02:14] <glenn> ok, i'll double check the unicode def later tonight, but it looks like the 2nd example is correct given the data; as i said above, it might be useful to use a longer word that includes combining marks
  107. # [02:14] <fantasai> I think this particular example is complicated enough as it is...
  108. # [02:16] <glenn> ok, it's your call... it just that having an inter-cluster example that actually includes more than one character in a cluster would be useful for readers
  109. # [02:16] <fantasai> heh
  110. # [02:16] <fantasai> problem is coming up with sample text that's the right length and half-sensical
  111. # [02:17] <glenn> ok, let me know if you want me to suggest other thai text to fit your example
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  123. # [04:11] <fantasai> Anyone know why there is red in this testcase? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cp%20style%3D%22border%3A%20solid%20blue%3B%20height%3A%201em%3Bfont-size%3A%2060px%3B%20%22%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3D%22background%3A%20red%3B%20line-height%3A%201%3B%22%3E%3Cimg%20style%3D%22height%3A%201em%3B%20vertical-align%3A%20text-top%3B%22%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Ftest.csswg.org%2Fsuites%2Fcss2.1%2Fnightly-unstable%2Fht[CUT]
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  125. # [04:11] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cp%20style%3D%22border%3A%20solid%20blue%3B%20height%3A%201em%3Bfont-size%3A%2060px%3B%20%22%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3D%22background%3A%20red%3B%20line-height%3A%201%3B%22%3E%3Cimg%20style%3D%22height%3A%201em%3B%20vertical-align%3A%20text-top%3B%22%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Ftest.csswg.org%2Fsuites%2Fcss2.1%2Fnightly-unstable%2Fhtml4%2Fsupport%2Fswatch-orange.png%22%3E%3Cspan%[CUT]
  126. # [04:12] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1901
  127. # [04:32] <fantasai> Bert: I may have asked you this before, but, do we have a way to do cross-module term auto-linking?
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The end :)