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- # Session Start: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [17:20] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/28-css-irc
- # [17:21] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:21] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
- # [17:21] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
- # [17:21] <glazou> hi all
- # [17:33] * Joins: lmclister (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [17:49] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:50] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aaaa
- # [17:50] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
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- # [17:50] <krit> Zakim, aabb is me
- # [17:50] <Zakim> +krit; got it
- # [17:50] <leif> Zakim, who is here?
- # [17:50] <Zakim> On the phone I see +47.23.69.aaaa, krit
- # [17:50] <Zakim> On IRC I see leif, SimonSapin1, rhauck, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, krit, glenn, logbot, antonp, SamB_MacG5, danielfilho|w, {Darktears}, drublic, teoli_, cabanier,
- # [17:50] <Zakim> ... isherman, arronei, stearns, hober, shepazu, vhardy__, boblet, gsnedders
- # [17:51] <leif> Zakim, aaa is me
- # [17:51] <Zakim> sorry, leif, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
- # [17:51] <leif> Zakim, aaaa is me
- # [17:51] <Zakim> +leif; got it
- # [17:51] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
- # [17:51] <Zakim> +??P16
- # [17:51] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
- # [17:51] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:51] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [17:51] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: leif (62%)
- # [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, mute leif
- # [17:52] <Zakim> leif should now be muted
- # [17:52] <glazou> leif: too much noise, I muted you
- # [17:53] <Zakim> + +33.9.52.34.aacc
- # [17:53] * {Darktears} is now known as darktears
- # [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is SimonSapin
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +plinss
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P61
- # [17:55] <glenn> zakim, ??p61 is me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [17:56] <leif> whoops, I stepped out for a minute, but my phone was muted. sorry
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- # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aadd
- # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aaee
- # [17:57] <dbaron> Zakim, aaee is dbaron
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
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- # [17:58] <smfr> Zakim, aagg is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
- # [17:58] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
- # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aahh
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- # [17:59] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
- # [17:59] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
- # [17:59] <Zakim> +SteveZ
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
- # [18:02] <SteveZ> Scribenick SteveZ
- # [18:03] <SteveZ> Note from Molly which says changing the dates should not be a problem
- # [18:03] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0473.html'
- # [18:03] * Joins: dino (~dino@public.cloak)
- # [18:03] <SteveZ> Please update the Wiki with your plans and everything else you need (e.g. spouse, special needs)
- # [18:04] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013
- # [18:04] <smfr> topic: unbound background-clip from -origin in background shorthand
- # [18:04] * Zakim smfr, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
- # [18:04] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0374.html
- # [18:05] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Ap%20{%20background%3A%20content-box%20red%20content-box%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest%20me
- # [18:05] <SimonSapin> makes sense to allow this
- # [18:05] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Whether other values can be between Background and Clip
- # [18:05] <SteveZ> Dirk: Firefox does not allow others do
- # [18:05] <krit> http://jsfiddle.net/WbWSF/
- # [18:06] <JohnJansen> IE10 is clipped with that test case
- # [18:06] <oyvind> firefox doesn't allow two values at all, at least not in 17/stable
- # [18:07] <SteveZ> Fantasai: reason we put them back to back was that it was simpler, but I do not have strong opinions;
- # [18:07] <fantasai> oyvind: good point, that doesn't seem to work indeed
- # [18:07] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [18:07] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Given one implementation follows the spec we should not change it
- # [18:07] <SteveZ> krit: does Quirks mode affect this
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- # [18:08] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Quirks mode should not matter because this is not a legacy feature
- # [18:08] <SteveZ> Fantasai: does anyone else have an opinion
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- # [18:09] <krit> s/does Quirks mode affect this/does Quirks mode affect this on IE? it doesn't on Safari/Chromium/
- # [18:09] <SteveZ> It was noted that Firefox does not allow two values
- # [18:10] <SteveZ> Krit: Webkit uses first for origin and second for clip
- # [18:10] <SteveZ> A third value would make the specification invalid
- # [18:11] <SteveZ> Fantasai: the spec is clear about the intended value; there used to be only one allowed value and then two were allowed
- # [18:12] <SteveZ> DBaron: I prefer leaving it as it is because it is easier to implement
- # [18:13] <SteveZ> krit: both Webkit and Opera correctly implement a single value, two values and ignoring the property if a third value is set
- # [18:13] <SteveZ> PLinss: there are 3 implementations that agree, but do not implement the spec and one implementation that does implement the spec
- # [18:14] <SteveZ> Sylvain: If we make a change theat would put us back to LC
- # [18:14] <SteveZ> Fantasai: We have to go to LC anyway to allow the inset and color keywords to be re-ordered
- # [18:15] <SteveZ> ACTION krit to provide test case
- # [18:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:15] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find krit. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
- # [18:15] <SteveZ> ACTION Dirk to provide test case
- # [18:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-524 - Provide test case [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-05].
- # [18:16] <SteveZ> PLinss: we will revisit next week after test is posted
- # [18:16] <SteveZ> 2. css3-text/text-decor
- # [18:17] <SteveZ> Fantasai: are there any more issues?
- # [18:17] <SteveZ> PLinss: this is the LC for LC so we can decide to publish LC next week
- # [18:18] <SteveZ> Fantasai: want to insure everyone, including JDaggett, can file any issues they have
- # [18:18] <SteveZ> Topic: 3. FX TF meetings
- # [18:19] * dino zakim, passcode?
- # [18:19] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, dino
- # [18:19] <Zakim> +??P3
- # [18:19] <SteveZ> Dirk: There were FX TF meetings in the past with CSS and SVG folks; they stopped when CSS participation dropped
- # [18:19] * dino zakim, i am P3
- # [18:19] * Zakim sorry, dino, I do not see a party named 'P3'
- # [18:19] <SteveZ> Sylvain: What time will these meetings be?
- # [18:19] * dino zakim, i am ??P3
- # [18:19] * Zakim +dino; got it
- # [18:20] <SteveZ> Dirk: there are attendees in Japan and Australia so we need to accommodate them; it was 10-11PM in Europe
- # [18:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
- # [18:21] <SteveZ> DBaron: Will these meeting be regular.
- # [18:21] <cabanier> cabanier: they used to be Monday afternoon PST
- # [18:21] <SteveZ> Dirk: How about having a meeting only if there is an agenda
- # [18:22] <SteveZ> DBaron: that is OK if the agenda comes at least 2 days prior to the meeting
- # [18:22] <SteveZ> Dirk: I had sent agendas on the Wednesday prior to a following Monday meeting
- # [18:22] <SteveZ> DBaron: I would join depending the the topics
- # [18:23] <SteveZ> Dirk: the SF time was 1:30PM on Mondays
- # [18:24] <tantek> I would monitor it
- # [18:24] <SteveZ> DBaron: I would prefer every other week so I can put a chron entry in my calendar
- # [18:25] * sylvaing orders a Tantek Meeting Monitor
- # [18:25] <SteveZ> Dirk: How about every even week?
- # [18:25] <dbaron> but every week is fine too
- # [18:25] <SteveZ> DBaron: I can live with every week and cancelling as well
- # [18:25] <cabanier> It's unlikely that there will be many meetings in a row
- # [18:25] <SteveZ> Topic: 4. viewport units (vw/vh/vmin/vmax) and varying page size
- # [18:25] <SteveZ> ---------------------------------------------------------
- # [18:25] <SteveZ> http://www.w3.org/mid/50A04DD2.1030309@kozea.fr
- # [18:26] * glazou that sounded like a "I'm your father" sound
- # [18:27] <SteveZ> Simon: viewport units are based on the initial containing block which is only the first page, but units should vary across varying size pages
- # [18:27] <SteveZ> Simon: the first page solution is easier to implement;, but makes them useless for varying size pages
- # [18:28] <SteveZ> PLinss: what happens with a entity is split across pages of different size
- # [18:29] <SteveZ> Simon: If we choose that viewport units depend on the current page, then the width may vary across pages
- # [18:30] <SteveZ> Rossen: This is the same problem as exists with percentages where fragments fit into different size containers
- # [18:30] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
- # [18:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see leif (muted), krit, glazou, plinss, glenn, [Microsoft], +1.253.307.aadd, dbaron, +1.206.512.aaff, Stearns, ??P77, smfr, +1.619.846.aahh, SteveZ, fantasai,
- # [18:30] <Zakim> ... SimonSapin, dino
- # [18:30] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
- # [18:30] <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, jet, cabanier, dino, emalasky, SteveZ, oyvind, smfr, dbaron, JohnJansen, leif, SimonSapin, rhauck, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, krit, glenn, logbot,
- # [18:30] <Zakim> ... antonp, SamB_MacG5, danielfilho|w, darktears, drublic, teoli_, isherman
- # [18:30] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaff is me
- # [18:30] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
- # [18:30] <SteveZ> Rossen: It is not that different to have the viewport relative values be computed differently for each fragment
- # [18:31] <SteveZ> Rossen: IE does take advantage of the current initial containing block so I would be in favor of keeping that behavior.
- # [18:32] <SteveZ> Simon: I agree that the viewport unit computation is like percentages
- # [18:32] <cabanier> * FYI I'm not on the phone *
- # [18:33] <SteveZ> Simon: If we go with using the current page then the computed value of every property would need to change to say and absolute value or a viewport unit
- # [18:33] <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aahh
- # [18:33] <Zakim> +Tab_Atkins
- # [18:33] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaii
- # [18:33] * sylvaing quiet, Tab is here
- # [18:34] * TabAtkins lol
- # [18:34] <SteveZ> Rossen: this is not the case because all the values (today) are bound to an element so you only get one value per element
- # [18:34] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
- # [18:35] <SteveZ> Rossen: The API today is defined on an element that implies a single value per property. This does not allow returning the values for all the fragements an element might divide into
- # [18:36] <SteveZ> Rossen: to solve this you would need to get the used values of the boxes (for the fragments)
- # [18:37] <SteveZ> DBaron: If is not just about the API, it is about the concept of "computed value" and whether viewport units can be computed to a lenght within that concept
- # [18:38] <SteveZ> Rossen: making the change to use the current page would make the value dependent on layout and would vliolate the "computed value" rule
- # [18:39] <SteveZ> DBaron: We decided (not that long ago) that we wanted viewport values to compute to a length. I believe that we did this knowing it would not work with varying page sizes
- # [18:39] * glazou it's not even De-Broy TabAtkins… It's De-Bröy (scandinavian ö)
- # [18:39] <SteveZ> DBaron: changing this would cause current implementations to start over
- # [18:40] <SteveZ> Fantasai: When you do not have varying page sizes you get the same results with either approach.
- # [18:40] * TabAtkins is the scandinavian oe different from the german?
- # [18:40] * glazou ask krit
- # [18:40] <Zakim> -??P77
- # [18:40] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:40] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Add a note to the spec to say that the interpretation may change in the future if varying page sizes become important
- # [18:41] * sylvaing Tab, this guy is dead. We can definitely rename him at LC
- # [18:41] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
- # [18:41] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
- # [18:41] * krit ask Leif :)
- # [18:42] <SteveZ> Tab: We cannot change it in the future if we want viewport units to be computed values
- # [18:42] * leif I think they're the same
- # [18:42] * leif the Hungarian one is different though
- # [18:42] * glazou in phonetic alphabet it's /dəbʁɔj/
- # [18:43] * sylvaing knows better than getting into a phonetic argument with glazou
- # [18:44] <SteveZ> Simon: we need to change the note in Values and Units if we keep the first page rule
- # [18:44] <SteveZ> Fantasai: there may be other places that need to be updated as well
- # [18:44] * glazou http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/De_Broglie.ogg
- # [18:45] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Do we want to allow either interpretation being conformant?
- # [18:45] <SteveZ> Rossen:
- # [18:45] * sylvaing 'this browser has first-page conformance'
- # [18:46] <SteveZ> Tab: a viewport unit that changes by the page will not be a 'definite size' (in the sizing spec) because it will depend on layout
- # [18:46] <SteveZ> This means that the two choices are not "the same" for constant size pages
- # [18:47] <SteveZ> Tab: making the unit conform to the varying page size makes viewport units be used value units rather than computed value units
- # [18:48] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:49] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
- # [18:49] <SimonSapin> (phone operator cutting calls after ~45 minutes …)
- # [18:49] <SteveZ> PLinss: i am reluctant to making a decision that would not allow viewport units to depend on the actual page size
- # [18:50] <Zakim> -dino
- # [18:51] <SteveZ> SteveZ: the viewport units are absolute so that a rotated table would use the vh to set its width
- # [18:51] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
- # [18:51] <plinss> s/not allow viewport units/not allow initial containing block/
- # [18:51] * dino zakim, i am IP
- # [18:51] * Zakim sorry, dino, I do not see a party named 'IP'
- # [18:51] <SteveZ> RESOVLED: keep the spedification of viewport units the same as now; that is that the first page is used
- # [18:52] * dino zakim, i am [IPcaller]
- # [18:52] * Zakim ok, dino, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
- # [18:52] <SteveZ> Topic: 5. CR Exit Criteria
- # [18:52] <SimonSapin> action to update the v&u note?
- # [18:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:52] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find to. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
- # [18:52] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai edit the spec
- # [18:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:52] <trackbot> Created ACTION-525 - Edit the spec [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-12-05].
- # [18:52] <SteveZ> -------------------
- # [18:52] <SteveZ> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0219.html
- # [18:53] <SteveZ> Tab: I do not know if anyone objected to the conclusion: namely, that if one person writes the code, even if in different products, that is considered to be one implementation
- # [18:54] <stearns> there's nothing restricting someone working on more than one implementation - there's just a requirement to go and find a third implementation in that case
- # [18:54] <SteveZ> PLinss: I would not change our CR wording because because I want to allow time varying participation in different products
- # [18:55] <SteveZ> DBaron and others: I do not think we need to further define "independent"; it's meaning in English is sufficient
- # [18:55] * fantasai agrees with dbaron and doesn't think this needs further discussion or change
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -krit
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -leif
- # [18:56] <SteveZ> PLinss: if the tester writes his tests by reading the spec; that means a second pair of eyes came to the same interpretation as the implementer
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -Rossen
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -Tab_Atkins
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -dbaron
- # [18:56] <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aadd
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -sylvaing
- # [18:56] <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aaii
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -Stearns
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:56] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
- # [18:57] <hober> Zakim, aaii is me
- # [18:57] <Zakim> sorry, hober, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'
- # [18:57] <SteveZ> RRSagend, make minutes
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [18:57] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
- # [18:57] * Quits: leif (~leif@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [18:57] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -glenn
- # [18:57] <SteveZ> RRSagent, make minutes
- # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/28-css-minutes.html SteveZ
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- # [18:57] <SteveZ> Meeting ended at 10:00
- # [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [18:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [18:58] <Zakim> Attendees were +47.23.69.aaaa, +1.415.832.aabb, krit, leif, glazou, +33.9.52.34.aacc, SimonSapin, plinss, glenn, +1.253.307.aadd, +1.415.766.aaee, dbaron, +1.206.512.aaff, Stearns,
- # [18:58] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aagg, smfr, +1.619.846.aahh, JohnJansen, SteveZ, fantasai, dino, sylvaing, Tab_Atkins, +1.619.846.aaii, [Microsoft], Rossen, [IPcaller]
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- # [19:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ping
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- # [21:04] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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- # [21:58] <fantasai> SimonSapin: pong
- # [21:58] <SimonSapin> fantasai: have you got a chance to look at the css3-page stuff?
- # [22:14] * Joins: jet (~jet@public.cloak)
- # [22:30] <Ms2ger> fantasai, shouldn't we get http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/#grammar in a selectors spec?
- # [22:35] <fantasai> SimonSapin: not really. Hopefully will get to that this week.
- # [22:36] <fantasai> Ms2ger: Maybe? I'll file it as an issue.
- # [22:36] <Ms2ger> Thanks
- # [22:37] * fantasai finding it hard to think about anything lately
- # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Time for a vacation ;);
- # [22:41] <fantasai> yeah
- # [22:42] * fantasai operating at 20% efficiency these days; not much of a loss if not showing up for a week :)
- # [22:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai: page stuff can wait too ;)
- # [22:45] <fantasai> well, I'm not off this week anyway :)
- # [22:49] <SimonSapin> fantasai: should I add myself to the editors list?
- # [22:50] <fantasai> yes
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- # Session Close: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2012
The end :)