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- # Session Start: Wed Dec 05 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [09:52] <Whiskey-> Hay
- # [09:52] <Whiskey-> I have problem whit the validation
- # [09:52] <Whiskey-> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=https://test.test.se/index.php?view=1&db=2&uid=a10dbe120dd1a4a7a7c40fca30f252dc&css=1 <-- not working
- # [09:53] <Whiskey-> its just read https://test.test.se/index.php?view=1 of some reason
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- # [09:54] <Whiskey-> but if i set the url maually in the validator its find it and everything is fine
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- # [17:12] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-css-irc
- # [17:12] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:12] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
- # [17:12] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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- # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +??P25
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- # [17:54] <darktears_> P25 is me
- # [17:54] <darktears_> Zakim: P25 is me
- # [17:54] * darktears_ is now known as darktears
- # [17:55] <darktears> Zakim, ??P25 is me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
- # [17:56] <glenn> zakim, what is the code?
- # [17:56] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glenn
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P39
- # [17:56] <glenn> zakim, ??p39 is me
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
- # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
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- # [17:57] <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit; got it
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P42
- # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P42 is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:58] * krit is happy that Zakim doesn't call him gaga
- # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P43
- # [17:58] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
- # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [17:59] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Molly_Holzschlag (3%)
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- # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is hober
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +hober; got it
- # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is antonp
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
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- # [18:04] <leif> Zakim, aadd is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +leif; got it
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- # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
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- # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aaee is SimonSapin
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
- # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaff
- # [18:05] <florian> Zakim, IPcaller has me
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +florian; got it
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- # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, aaff is bradk
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
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- # [18:05] <Zakim> +Stearns
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P82
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- # [18:06] <tantek> Zakim, mute Tantek
- # [18:06] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:07] <jdaggett> zakim, ?p82 is me
- # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '?p82'
- # [18:07] <jdaggett> greetings
- # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, ??P82 is jdaggett
- # [18:07] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
- # [18:07] * antonp will have to drop off the call after the flexbox discussion
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- # [18:08] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
- # [18:08] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
- # [18:08] <Zakim> +koji; got it
- # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aagg
- # [18:08] * dbaron Zakim, aagg is dbaron
- # [18:08] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
- # [18:09] <leif> ScribeNick: leif
- # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:09] <leif> glazou: extra items?
- # [18:09] <leif> … nothing
- # [18:09] <leif> glazou: Need report about Tucson from Molly
- # [18:10] <leif> mollyholzschlag: Request last meeting was to shift it a day.
- # [18:10] <leif> mollyholzschlag: Didn't work out too well.
- # [18:10] <leif> … Feb being a big month, the best option is (as a suggestion) to move one week forward, to 11th
- # [18:10] <leif> … can have it downtown at the Marriot, walkable to campus and bars
- # [18:11] <leif> … for those that stay an extra day, can go to biosphere etc.
- # [18:11] <leif> glazou: problem: w3c workshop about ebooks in NYC from 11-13th
- # [18:11] <leif> florian: shifting it 1 day was preference, but no-one completely against keeping
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- # [18:12] <leif> mollyholzschlag: The block I had for Marriot is not available anymore, but still have the Bioshhere
- # [18:12] <dbaron> Earlier this week, I created a problem for myself that week (the following week) because we'd said last week that we were committed to the week we'd chosen.
- # [18:12] <leif> … Big q is whether people … Daniel, you're the only one with a conflict?
- # [18:12] <leif> glazou: Alan will probably also attend
- # [18:12] <leif> dbaron: I got a jury duty postponed to that week
- # [18:13] <leif> mollyholzschlag: Don't have to do it, only if we want that model
- # [18:13] <leif> … General feeling is not to move right now, stick to dates
- # [18:13] <leif> … partly biosphere, part downtown, 4-7 Feb
- # [18:14] <leif> … or any combination
- # [18:14] <leif> … not going to do anything about moving to next week
- # [18:14] <leif> … We may have to be in separate hotels
- # [18:14] <leif> … Housing is only problem
- # [18:14] <leif> … Resolve to keep dates? Part of problem was adding Thurs, that's when they start running out of rooms
- # [18:15] <leif> … checking out 7th is ok
- # [18:15] <leif> glazou: that's enough
- # [18:15] <leif> mollyholzschlag: someone wanted to move it forward
- # [18:15] <leif> SimonSapin: ok for me
- # [18:15] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
- # [18:15] <leif> mollyholzschlag: PLEASE use wiki planning page, put your name in there
- # [18:16] <leif> … in notes section, put special needs, spouse, children etc.
- # [18:16] <leif> … once I get this all done, have to start working on catering
- # [18:16] <leif> … Next week I'll come back with hotel to begin reserving
- # [18:17] <leif> glazou, mollyholzschlag: thanks
- # [18:17] <krit> I want to mention that next monday (12/10) is a FXTF call. Agenda and times posted on the public-fx mailing list.
- # [18:17] <leif> Topic: CSS3 Text
- # [18:17] <leif> glazou: jdaggett objected to LC, we thought merited time onc all
- # [18:17] <leif> jdaggett: bunch of issues I posted
- # [18:17] <leif> … some have solutions, some just require a bit more head-scratching
- # [18:17] <leif> … figure out what is needed now
- # [18:18] <leif> … text-justify: what it is and why it's needed. is it the best way to accomplish this?
- # [18:18] <leif> … It's a bit underdefined
- # [18:18] <leif> … In San Diego I said we need use cases
- # [18:18] <leif> … an example was added, but doesn't expalin UC.
- # [18:19] <leif> … Set a string in multiple scripts, but doesn't show you why
- # [18:19] <leif> florian: Wouldn't put it that way, but I share some concern.
- # [18:19] <leif> … when introduced, it was overly specific
- # [18:19] <leif> … good for justification
- # [18:19] <leif> … Gives implementors flexibility, but so flexible that it is somewhat meaningless
- # [18:20] <leif> … can conform without making sense
- # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P14
- # [18:20] <leif> jdaggett: A number of specific issues were filed not just -justify
- # [18:20] <leif> … until we go through those [noise]
- # [18:20] <leif> jdaggett: posted to the list
- # [18:20] <leif> … filed in tracker
- # [18:20] <Zakim> -antonp
- # [18:20] <leif> … linked from spec
- # [18:21] <leif> glazou: So we have quite a strong objection
- # [18:21] <Zakim> +SteveZ
- # [18:21] <leif> florian: I object almost as strongly
- # [18:21] <leif> glazou: So we need to solve these issues before going to LC
- # [18:21] <leif> jdaggett: I'm not sure these issues are so high prio that we need to push through on calls before the next F2F
- # [18:21] <florian> s/object almost as strongly/don't object as strongly, but I agree with the concerns/
- # [18:22] <leif> … better to do it then
- # [18:22] <leif> glazou: letter-spacing does not need conf call time?
- # [18:22] <leif> jdaggett: That's an issue that is easier to resolve, so could talk about it
- # [18:22] <leif> … or later
- # [18:22] <leif> glazou: later
- # [18:22] <leif> … more time for flexbox
- # [18:22] <leif> fantasai: What about text-decoration?
- # [18:22] <leif> … in a separate spec go to LC?
- # [18:23] <leif> glazou: I think fantasai is asking whether you also object to that
- # [18:23] <leif> jdaggett: Not looked at it, not on agenda
- # [18:23] <leif> ACTION jdaggett loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC
- # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-526 - Loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC [on John Daggett - due 2012-12-12].
- # [18:24] <leif> Topic: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts
- # [18:24] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#recent-changes
- # [18:24] <leif> jdaggett: number of significant changes
- # [18:24] <bradk> s/Loko/Look
- # [18:24] <leif> … FontLoader events
- # [18:24] <leif> … changes to syntax of @font-feature-values
- # [18:24] <leif> … to OM
- # [18:24] <leif> … and a few others
- # [18:24] <leif> … I think FontLoader object will go through changes as people comment
- # [18:25] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:25] * Quits: jet (~jet@public.cloak) (jet)
- # [18:25] <leif> … Need to make sure it's completely accurate, but it's been reviewed by a number of people. We can publish
- # [18:25] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
- # [18:25] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
- # [18:25] <leif> glazou: Prev. WD from end of Aug
- # [18:25] <leif> … No objections.
- # [18:25] <glenn> sounds good
- # [18:25] <leif> RESOLVED: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts
- # [18:25] <leif> Topic: CSS Flexbox issues
- # [18:26] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0251.html
- # [18:26] * krit flex box is back!
- # [18:26] <fantasai> There have been several issues filed against Flexbox since the CR.
- # [18:26] <fantasai> We wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to review them and
- # [18:26] <fantasai> make sure the changes are correct. (And then of course we'll need
- # [18:26] <fantasai> to publish an update.)
- # [18:26] <fantasai> The changes are summarized in:
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#changes
- # [18:26] <fantasai> The relevant diffs are:
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> The last change is the trickiest one, and we'd really like Rossen and
- # [18:26] <fantasai> Alex Mogilevsky to review it. The thread begins at
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> We also rejected two change requests:
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0462.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html
- # [18:26] <leif> glazou: Many of the confidential messages you sent deserve to be public
- # [18:26] <fantasai> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html
- # [18:26] <fantasai> and would like the CSSWG to review and, if everyone agrees, ratify that.
- # [18:27] <leif> fantasai summarizes
- # [18:27] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html
- # [18:27] <leif> fantasai: 1. special case negative margins and clamp them to zero
- # [18:27] <leif> … could be nonsensical, but Tab and I want to just let them do it
- # [18:27] <leif> … maybe author wanted something weird
- # [18:28] <leif> … we propose not changing it
- # [18:28] <leif> florian: Wouldn't happen by accident, might as well give them that.
- # [18:28] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html
- # [18:28] <leif> RESOLVED: First diff: no change.
- # [18:29] <stearns> issue described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html
- # [18:30] <leif> fantasai: 2. Should an image a max-height constraint affect the max-width constraint when there's an aspect ratio
- # [18:30] <leif> … we say no
- # [18:30] <leif> … specifying the flex is kind of like specifying the width
- # [18:30] <leif> Rossen: That makes sense.
- # [18:30] <leif> SteveZ: In other places we try to preserve aspect ratio.
- # [18:31] <Zakim> -??P14
- # [18:31] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
- # [18:31] <leif> fantasai: We consider the aspect ratio when calculating the hypothetical size
- # [18:31] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
- # [18:31] <leif> SteveZ: And i suspec that's the best you can do in this circumstance
- # [18:31] <leif> … even without flexbox if I set a width I can destroy aspect ratio.
- # [18:31] <leif> … Seems strange to consider flexing a fixed width
- # [18:32] <leif> fantasai: Not a fixed width, but it's kind of like 100%
- # [18:32] <leif> … The only thing in the box.
- # [18:32] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:32] <leif> … The changes, 3 are minor, the last still being discussed on mailnig list
- # [18:32] <glenn> thinks that if AR is specified, then should take priority
- # [18:32] <leif> … First minor one: When deciding whether to use stretch
- # [18:32] * tantek changes topic to 'Please add yourself to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013#participants if you intend to participate in the 2013 February f2f in Tucson, AZ, USA.'
- # [18:32] <leif> … you check the computed cross-size property
- # [18:33] <leif> … What happens if it's specified as a percentage and can't be resolved, treated as auto
- # [18:33] <leif> … You check the computed cross-size prop, which means you get auto behavior and no stretching
- # [18:33] <leif> … We're open to doing things different, but this simplest thing, to just check the computed size
- # [18:33] * Joins: drublic_ (~drublic@public.cloak)
- # [18:34] * tantek added himself to the CSSWG wiki f2f planning page for 2013 Feb Tucson per mollyholzschlag's request.
- # [18:34] <leif> RESOLVED (from earlier): Second diff, no change.
- # [18:34] <leif> glazou: move on?
- # [18:35] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:35] <leif> fantasai: 3rd diff: Fixed an error
- # [18:35] <leif> … needs review
- # [18:35] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:35] <leif> … 4th diff: Floats may not have an effect, but may affect display property
- # [18:35] <leif> … Clarify that takes effect and still becomes a flex item
- # [18:35] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
- # [18:36] <leif> … Probably should review it
- # [18:36] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
- # [18:36] <leif> … Last diff
- # [18:36] <fantasai> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
- # [18:36] <leif> … Would like Rossen and Alex Mogilevksy to review
- # [18:36] <leif> … Does it match IE, or different and better
- # [18:36] * Quits: drublic_ (~drublic@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:36] <leif> Rossen: We will review, maybe today
- # [18:36] <leif> … close this next week
- # [18:37] <leif> ^fantasai
- # [18:37] <leif> fantasai: address Kenny's comments
- # [18:37] <leif> Topic: Case insensitivity of identifiers from TPAC
- # [18:37] <leif> ?: Is Tab on the call?
- # [18:38] <leif> glazou: No, in Hawaii, poor him
- # [18:38] <leif> glazou: So what do we do?
- # [18:38] * sylvaing_away Tab is finally in a place where being barefoot looks normal
- # [18:38] <leif> florian: Please remind me of conclusion of last discussion
- # [18:38] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:38] <leif> … which options did we eliminate?
- # [18:38] <leif> plinss: At TPAC we deferred to i18n
- # [18:38] * mollyholzschlag barefoot is always normal. Were you born with shoes, Sylvain :P
- # [18:38] <leif> … they came back and said to do case folding
- # [18:38] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
- # [18:39] <Bert> q+ to ask which case-folding? There are two, aren't there? A simnple and a complex one.
- # [18:39] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
- # [18:39] <leif> florian: Main arg. for not doing that is that in other places, like HTML, they do ASCII case insensitivty.
- # [18:39] * sylvaing_away I wasn't born with clothes either. are you suggesting the Tucson meeting will be held naked?
- # [18:39] <leif> ?: They said to do full case-insensitivity
- # [18:39] <leif> florian: Hard to do
- # [18:40] <plinss> s/?/jdaggett/
- # [18:40] * bradk just got back from Maui. Weather was great. I wore shoes most of the time when I wasn't on a beach or snorkeling.
- # [18:40] <leif> … Nothing says which language a stylesheet is in
- # [18:40] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
- # [18:40] * mollyholzschlag thinks a naked CSS-WG anywhere would be case-insensitive
- # [18:40] <glazou> poor bradk too… :-)
- # [18:40] <leif> fantasai: Set of default rules to use when you don't know the language for text-transform
- # [18:40] * sylvaing_away naked-csswg-avoid: always;
- # [18:41] * bradk LOL
- # [18:41] * mollyholzschlag resolved, sylvain
- # [18:41] <leif> Bert: Which of the two case-folding algorithms from Unicode did i17n recomend?
- # [18:41] <leif> … The simple one is better than full
- # [18:41] <glazou> s/i17n/i18n
- # [18:41] <leif> florian: Other than language sensitivty, what is the difference?
- # [18:42] <leif> fantasai: I have to look into that
- # [18:42] <leif> … two sets: one that preserves the length of the string, on ethat doesn't
- # [18:42] <leif> Bert: the German sharp s
- # [18:42] <leif> … wouldn't be folded in the simple algo.
- # [18:42] * glazou note to self, need to discuss 25-dec and 02-jan conf calls
- # [18:42] <leif> florian: No particular reason for us to care about string length changing.
- # [18:43] <leif> fantasai: agrees
- # [18:43] <leif> fantasai: Two axes: constant string length or language sensitivity
- # [18:43] <leif> … def. don't want to be language sensitive
- # [18:43] <leif> florian: Dont' know the implications, but from conceptual standpoint, makes sense
- # [18:44] * fantasai can't hear jdaggett
- # [18:44] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:44] <leif> jdaggett: The big problem is that you're making a distinction for …
- # [18:44] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
- # [18:44] <glazou> I think florian is noisy, people speaking french in the background
- # [18:44] <leif> ( identifiers, i18n mailing list … )
- # [18:44] <leif> florian: Slowly moving towards full unicode
- # [18:44] <leif> jdaggett: I don't see that happening
- # [18:44] <leif> SteveZ: HTML is pretty solidly set on not doing that
- # [18:45] <leif> dbaron: Defined lots of things as ASCII case sensitive when comparing things that are ASCII
- # [18:45] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:45] <dbaron> s/comparing things/comparing to things/
- # [18:45] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (5%), glazou (9%)
- # [18:45] <bradk> someone in a lunch room?
- # [18:45] <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
- # [18:45] <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, glenn, Molly_Holzschlag, krit, glazou, ??P43, [IPcaller], hober, plinss, leif, SimonSapin, fantasai, bradk, Stearns, jdaggett, Tantek (muted),
- # [18:45] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], koji, dbaron, Bert, SteveZ, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa]
- # [18:45] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
- # [18:45] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
- # [18:45] <Zakim> On IRC I see smfr, florian, Rossen, SteveZ, cabanier, sylvaing_away, jdaggett, rhauck, bradk, tantek, leif, oyvind, antonp, glenn, dbaron, krit, mollyholzschlag, RRSAgent, Zakim,
- # [18:45] <Zakim> ... glazou, koji, Ms2ger, liam, SimonSapin, teoli, darktears, isherman
- # [18:46] <tantek> Zakim, who is ??P43?
- # [18:46] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
- # [18:46] <leif> glazou: More to say? we haven't solved it
- # [18:46] <dbaron> s/sensitive when/sensitive, mostly when/
- # [18:46] <leif> florian: Should determine what's standing between us and conclusion
- # [18:46] <tantek> are there URLs to specific alternatives being considered?
- # [18:46] <leif> plinss: Not hearing strong arguments against doing Unicode case folding
- # [18:47] <jdaggett> anne k had a pretty strong argument on the i18n list
- # [18:47] <rhauck> fantasai: confirming that we are staying on the call with plinss and arronei to discuss the css 2.1 test suite?
- # [18:47] <fantasai> rhauck: yep
- # [18:47] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/mid/CADnb78gbNqHBtnxqhukZnZFO8Z4bjJJC2mC3JdVW7WqT6D7aLQ@mail.
- # [18:47] <dbaron> gmail.com
- # [18:47] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [18:47] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html
- # [18:47] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
- # [18:47] <leif> jdaggett: That one?
- # [18:47] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html
- # [18:48] <leif> glazou: yeah that one
- # [18:48] <jdaggett> yes
- # [18:48] <leif> fantasai: What is case insensitive in HTML?
- # [18:48] <glenn> @name/@id comparison?
- # [18:48] <leif> Chris: tags and attributes
- # [18:48] <glazou> s/Chris/krit
- # [18:48] <leif> florian: is the pasted mail the only argumetn? Not particularly strong
- # [18:49] <leif> fantasai: You can't make up your own, and they're all ascii
- # [18:49] <fantasai> s/You/Traditionally, you/
- # [18:49] <Ms2ger> getElementsByClassName in quirks mode
- # [18:49] <tantek> disagreed, I think Anne's position of "look at the platform holistically" is the right position.
- # [18:49] <leif> florian: Unless particular problems, support full Unicode
- # [18:49] <leif> glazou: dbaron poitned out anne's answer, but what about you?
- # [18:49] * tantek agrees with Annevk's answer.
- # [18:50] <leif> dbaron: Agree, but probably not as strongly
- # [18:50] * Ms2ger wonders what the TAG would say
- # [18:50] <leif> florian: Anne's point is weakened by what fantasai just said
- # [18:50] <leif> … when mostly talking about ascii things, difference is not great.
- # [18:51] <leif> … Now that we are considering that, we shouldn't feel constrained
- # [18:51] <leif> krit: XML-based languages are case sensitive
- # [18:51] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:51] <Bert> (In HTML I think all tokens defined by HTML are case-insensitive except for entity names.)
- # [18:51] <leif> … CSS is used for those as well
- # [18:51] <tantek> Ms2ger - this might be a good case where it makes sense to be consistent with HTML first, and then raise it to TAG to look at from a "platform holistically" perspective.
- # [18:51] <leif> krit: Not sure it actually matters for us
- # [18:51] <leif> plinss: only matter for elements and selectors
- # [18:51] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
- # [18:51] <leif> … this is only about identifiers, user identifiers specifically
- # [18:52] <leif> florian: Consistency
- # [18:52] <tantek> more important to be consistent with HTML than XML
- # [18:52] <leif> … is already broken
- # [18:52] <leif> SteveZ: Don't need to make it worse
- # [18:52] <leif> florian: But might win something on another front
- # [18:52] <tantek> "on another front" sounds hypothetical, and thus discardable
- # [18:52] <leif> SteveZ: No strong opinions, but anne's solution could get interoperable
- # [18:53] <leif> glazou: Full unicode solves only edge cases?
- # [18:53] <jdaggett> yes, exactly what daniel just said...
- # [18:53] <leif> SteveZ: … (didn't hear it)
- # [18:53] <leif> florian: For French, full case insensitivity doesn't help.
- # [18:54] <dbaron> Florian: ... people tend not to type uppercase accented characters with keyboards
- # [18:54] <leif> SteveZ said before: Trying to track bugs for edge cases is bigger pain than the value of being insensitive, and interop would suffer
- # [18:54] <tantek> excellent summary SteveZ
- # [18:54] <leif> glazou: If we don't implement case insensitivty, what does it mean for the architecture of the wb
- # [18:54] <leif> … will we be inconsistent?
- # [18:54] <glenn> this looks like a good subject for a TAG finding
- # [18:54] <leif> fantasai: We'll be consistent, and non-ASCII langs can't use case insensitivity.
- # [18:55] <leif> florian: Practical for French, but not eg. Norwegian
- # [18:55] <leif> fantasai: Leif's name would be fully insensitive, Håkon's would be excerpt the å
- # [18:55] <leif> florian: Nobody can type the upper case in French
- # [18:55] <leif> fantasai: I don't have trouble?
- # [18:55] <leif> florian: Not É on regular keyboard
- # [18:56] <leif> glazou: only Windows keyboards!
- # [18:56] <leif> florian: Huge number of people don't know how to type it
- # [18:56] <tantek> rathole?
- # [18:56] <leif> fantasai: Weird thing, but not relevant
- # [18:56] * SimonSapin can type É on a bépo keyboard layout, but meh
- # [18:56] <leif> florian: only a theoretical problem
- # [18:56] * sylvaing_away EXCEPTION CULTURELLE!!!!
- # [18:56] <leif> … but if it's common enough, we're not buying anything
- # [18:56] * sylvaing_away sorry. old reflexes.
- # [18:57] <leif> plinss: back to www-international, a test case shows IE, Opera Chrome being interop on case-insensiutive comparison of class idents
- # [18:57] <leif> … Argument that we dno't do it isn't valid, it is done
- # [18:57] <leif> dbaron: version of Firefox?
- # [18:57] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0110.html
- # [18:57] <leif> dbaron: We change it to ASCII case-insensitive
- # [18:57] <plinss> http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html
- # [18:58] <Ms2ger> "A quick survey of browsers on my desktop computer using the following page shows that IE9, Opera, Safari, and Chrome are already non-ASCII case-insensitive (only FF seems to be ASCII-only case-insensitive):"
- # [18:58] <leif> dbaron: Oh, he said only Firefox
- # [18:58] <SimonSapin> relevant HTML5 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#case-sensitivity
- # [18:58] <leif> plinss: I don't think Anne's point holds a lot of water
- # [18:58] <leif> dbaron: Talking of other parts of the platform
- # [18:58] <SimonSapin> "Classes from the class attribute of HTML elements in documents that are in quirks mode must be treated as ASCII case-insensitive for the purposes of selector matching."
- # [18:58] <leif> plinss: Here you have CSS and HTMl
- # [18:59] <SimonSapin> "Everything else (attribute values on HTML elements, IDs and classes in no-quirks mode and limited-quirks mode, and element names, attribute names, and attribute values in XML documents) must be treated as case-sensitive for the purposes of selector matching."
- # [18:59] <leif> … pretty good part of the platform!
- # [18:59] <leif> dbaron: What is this testing?
- # [18:59] <leif> glazou: Class names
- # [18:59] <leif> dbaron: Testing exactly one thing
- # [18:59] <dbaron> http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html
- # [18:59] <leif> florian: If we don't actually have consistency, we don't actually have something to be consistent with
- # [18:59] <glenn> historical reference for interest: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-5353782642
- # [18:59] <leif> dbaron: Well, what's the right thing?
- # [18:59] <leif> florian: i18n said full unicode
- # [19:00] <leif> glazou: Old browsers do what majority of browsers do
- # [19:00] <leif> … spec is what browsers do
- # [19:00] <leif> … IE, Opera, Chrome already do the same thing
- # [19:00] <leif> florian: Not user-defined identifiers
- # [19:00] <leif> … take a poll?
- # [19:00] <Bert> q+ to ask: Mac and Windows have case-insensitive file systems, what algo do they use?
- # [19:00] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
- # [19:01] <leif> Bert: Most ppl are used to Windows, what do they do?
- # [19:01] <leif> florian: in what context?
- # [19:01] <leif> Bert: File names
- # [19:01] <leif> … UNIX doesn't do case folding, Mac and Windows do
- # [19:01] <leif> florian: Most people don't type names
- # [19:01] <leif> … they click
- # [19:02] <leif> … A bunch of places to do case folding. Looking for consistency in web platform, makes sense, not further.
- # [19:02] <leif> glazou: Not sure poll is useful
- # [19:02] <leif> … More discussion is needed.
- # [19:02] <leif> florian: We've been talking about it for a while without many new points
- # [19:02] <leif> … Do we know why we're postpoingn?
- # [19:03] <leif> plinss: We've asked i18n, and they gave an asnwsr, and we have a test that shows consistency
- # [19:03] <leif> dbaron: but only testing one thing
- # [19:03] <leif> plinss: Shows consistency between html and css
- # [19:03] <leif> dbaron: "Consistency across the platform" should mean more than just one thing
- # [19:03] <tantek> could the advocates of each position update their documentation of their positions with the new data, and then reprovide the URLs to the documentation of their positions?
- # [19:03] <leif> glazou: Can we write more tests, or ping i18hn gorup?
- # [19:03] <leif> … if majority do one thing, let's make a decision.
- # [19:04] <leif> … I will ping i18n group and ask for more tests
- # [19:04] <tantek> I'm skeptical about a last minute test being shown and being asked to immediately except it.
- # [19:04] <leif> … then revisit issue
- # [19:04] <leif> fantasai: Want dbaron to list things to test
- # [19:04] <tantek> er, *accept* it
- # [19:04] <leif> dbaron: yes, but not off top of head
- # [19:04] <leif> ACTION dbaron List types of tests needed for case insensitivity
- # [19:04] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [19:04] <trackbot> Created ACTION-527 - List types of tests needed for case insensitivity [on David Baron - due 2012-12-12].
- # [19:05] <leif> ACTION glazou Contact i18n
- # [19:05] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [19:05] <trackbot> Created ACTION-528 - Contact i18n [on Daniel Glazman - due 2012-12-12].
- # [19:05] <leif> SimonSapin: Tests that we linked are in quirks mode
- # [19:05] <leif> … standards mode might be different.
- # [19:05] <leif> fantasai: Class names are matched case insensitivitely in standards mode
- # [19:05] <leif> … need to use quirks mode for this test
- # [19:05] <fantasai> s/insensit/sensit/
- # [19:06] <leif> florian: My impression is that tests are worth doing, but we don't have consistency
- # [19:06] <leif> glazou: Let's see.
- # [19:06] <leif> Topic: Text decoration
- # [19:06] <leif> jdaggett: text decoration spec has two issues listed in spec
- # [19:06] <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/10
- # [19:06] <leif> … a set of issues listed in the tracker under CSS3 Text that are actually about decoration
- # [19:06] <leif> … only a placeholder in spec
- # [19:07] <leif> … Needs resolving
- # [19:07] * leif can't hear
- # [19:07] <glazou> florian: mute please
- # [19:07] <leif> jdaggett: There's no introduction
- # [19:07] <leif> fantasai: Yes, needs intro
- # [19:08] <leif> … Needs to reference CSS Color,
- # [19:08] * bradk has to go now. Bye.
- # [19:08] <leif> … Also needs to add an example
- # [19:08] <leif> jdaggett: also issues in tracker
- # [19:08] <fantasai> None of the issues in tracker are agianst text-decoration
- # [19:08] * Bert sends regrets for next week
- # [19:08] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/")
- # [19:08] <leif> Topic: conf calls
- # [19:08] <leif> glazou: Last and first are 26 Dec and 2 January
- # [19:09] * fantasai will be around
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Stearns
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [19:09] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -hober
- # [19:09] <leif> … check your agenda and tell me whether you're attending so we can decide whether to cancel
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -darktears
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -koji
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Tantek
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -glenn
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -jdaggett
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -dbaron
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -??P43
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [19:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: There are no subtantial issues against text-decoration
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [19:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: Unless you have some you haven't raised
- # [19:09] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
- # [19:09] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [19:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, plinss, leif, [Microsoft.a]
- # [19:09] * Quits: mollyholzschlag (~mollydotcom@public.cloak) (mollyholzschlag)
- # [19:09] * leif Thanks to people who helped me out on my first minuting attempt!
- # [19:10] <Zakim> -leif
- # [19:10] * Joins: SimonSapin1 (~simon@public.cloak)
- # [19:10] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [19:10] * Parts: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (florian)
- # [19:10] <plinss> fantasai: testing call?
- # [19:11] * fantasai trying to join
- # [19:11] * fantasai can't; it's restricted
- # [19:13] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
- # [19:13] <Zakim> -krit
- # [19:13] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [19:13] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [19:13] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:13] <Zakim> Attendees were darktears, glenn, Molly_Holzschlag, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, +1.619.846.aabb, plinss, +93192aacc, hober, antonp, +47.23.69.aadd, leif, +33.9.52.34.aaee,
- # [19:13] <Zakim> ... fantasai, SimonSapin, +1.650.275.aaff, florian, bradk, Stearns, Tantek, jdaggett, [IPcaller], koji, +1.415.766.aagg, dbaron, Bert, SteveZ, arronei, [Microsoft]
- # [19:13] * Quits: leif (~leif@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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- # [21:35] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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- # [23:11] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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- # Session Close: Thu Dec 06 00:00:00 2012
The end :)