/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-01-16 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 16 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [16:07] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0072.html'
# [16:07] * Set by smfr on Wed Jan 09 18:08:03
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# [17:20] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:20] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
# [17:20] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:29] <mollyholzschlag> \
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# [17:36] <glazou> hi mollyholzschlag
# [17:37] <glazou> hi arno
# [17:38] <mollyholzschlag> Hi daniel!
# [17:38] <liam> glazoooooooooooooooou, well done for stirring a little the pot of love and helping to foment the revolution!
# [17:38] <glazou> ?
# [17:38] <glazou> liam: care to explain ?-)
# [17:39] * glazou loves being a revolutionary but would like to know why :-p
# [17:39] <liam> your mail about running headers, and about translating from docx etc
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# [17:40] <liam> add the Gallifreyan Concubine Module or whatever it is, gcpm
# [17:41] <glazou> liam: ah ok :-)
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# [17:42] <mollyholzschlag> poor, poor gcpm ;)
# [17:43] <liam> si.
# [17:43] <glazou> of course, I will have to fight howcome on that but I'm not here for that, I really think PM and GCPM are faaaar too weak
# [17:43] <liam> +1
# [17:43] <liam> +1e99999
# [17:45] <mollyholzschlag> I think there's an intriguing publishing model for print there, but perhaps outside the focus we need in the group
# [17:46] <liam> we need to get to the point where it's being addressed (somewhere in W3C) fairly soon, for sure this year.
# [17:46] <glazou> mollyholzschlag: if browser vendors don't implement it, it is dead
# [17:46] <glazou> as are currently dead PM and GCPM
# [17:46] <liam> ebooks are changing people's expectation of the platform
# [17:46] <glazou> only batch processors implement it
# [17:46] <glazou> nobody cares
# [17:47] <mollyholzschlag> I think Opera put out one lab version last year
# [17:47] <glazou> liam: exactly !
# [17:47] <mollyholzschlag> or a year ago
# [17:47] <mollyholzschlag> LOL
# [17:47] * mollyholzschlag was being diplomatic
# [17:47] <liam> I like labradors.
# [17:47] <mollyholzschlag> Golden, chocolate, brindle, black or all of the above?
# [17:48] <liam> people will go into a kiosk in an airport and say, "make me a print copy of this book while I check in to my flight".
# [17:48] <liam> we have a border collie / black lab mix sa one of our dogs
# [17:49] <glazou> print-on-demand
# [17:49] <glazou> yes
# [17:49] <glazou> no more stocks in bookstores
# [17:49] <glazou> one demo book only
# [17:50] <glazou> want it ? we print it
# [17:50] <liam> I have seen this for google books
# [17:50] <glazou> with a micro-cameron press
# [17:50] <glazou> one book printed in 10 seconds
# [17:52] <mollyholzschlag> good mix of doggies, Liam. I love border collies and labs - great dogs
# [17:52] <liam> he's neurotic and won't float to the left margin.
# [17:53] <liam> but he has hung punctuation and cute brown eyes.
# [17:53] * liam has to go
# [17:53] <glazou> bye liam
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P30
# [17:55] <Zakim> +rhauck
# [17:55] <darktears> Zakim, ??P30 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
# [17:55] <krit> zakim, rhauck is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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# [17:56] <Zakim> +??P40
# [17:56] <krit> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [17:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, krit, ??P40
# [17:56] <Zakim> +??P42
# [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, ??P42 is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
# [17:57] <stearns> zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
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# [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aabb
# [17:57] <stearns> the noise is actually my office :(
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:57] <rhauck> Zakim, aabb is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim: SimonSapin1 is me
# [17:58] * krit stearns want to move to SF?
# [17:59] <SimonSapin> glazou: page-margin boxes are weak, but I don’t see existing implementations removing them any time soon even with a better altenative
# [17:59] <SimonSapin> compat issues with existing content are the same as on the web, even though at a smaller scale
# [17:59] <stearns> I want to move to an office that isn't beset with AC noise
# [17:59] <stearns> two doors down would be fine :)
# [17:59] <glazou> SimonSapin: existing implems are batch and I don't see browsers implement it any soon either...
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +93192aacc
# [18:00] <dbaron> so should I expect the London number in the agenda to actually work?
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> glazou: so what?
# [18:00] <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
# [18:00] <glazou> SimonSapin: epub readers and browsers are not batch !
# [18:00] <antonp> dbaron: neither London nor Paris worked for me
# [18:00] <glazou> they need better than current PM/GCPM
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# [18:01] <glazou> dbaron: removed from service years ago
# [18:01] <dbaron> glazou, maybe they should stop being in the weekly agenda emails, then? :-P
# [18:01] <SimonSapin> glazou: should we remove a feature from the spec if only some implementations have it?
# [18:01] <glazou> yeah
# [18:01] <glazou> who said remove ?
# [18:01] <glazou> I said better
# [18:01] <glazou> better is L4
# [18:01] <Zakim> +fantasai
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:02] <SimonSapin> so better in addition to the current features?
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# [18:02] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
# [18:02] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
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# [18:03] <BradK> Zakim, aadd is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +BradK; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> +smfr
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# [18:04] <dbaron> me Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:04] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:04] <stearns> mmm - balanced text polyfill just posted: https://github.com/adobe-webplatform/balance-text
# [18:04] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (9%)
# [18:04] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:05] <fantasai> plinss: Any other items? No?
# [18:05] <fantasai> topic: F2F
# [18:05] * Bert doesn't hear noise. But do I need to mute?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <JohnJansen_> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
# [18:05] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [18:05] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Wanted to make sure we have everything in order for F2F, since I might not be available for next 2 meetings... available only via email
# [18:05] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: good shape w/ rooms
# [18:06] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Only have a problem solving with koji, will take care of that
# [18:06] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Meetings held at U of AZ on campus
# [18:06] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: They'll take care of catering
# [18:06] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Only thing is, Wed night we have to leave the room by 5pm
# [18:06] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Seems like it will be ok, is it a problem with anybody?
# [18:07] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: We'll be on a university campus, lots of resources
# [18:07] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: working on right now is social events
# [18:07] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Daniel suggested a meetup
# [18:07] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: figure out which night is best, and who would like to do 5-7 minute presentation?
# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: related to CSS, CSS and community, design-oriented, W3C topic, whatever
# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Wondering if Tuesday is best night
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# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Sunday make sure we have dinner for ppl arriving, from 8-10
# [18:08] * sylvaing is unable to call in; busy signal
# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: I imagine a lot of ppl will be tired Monday night
# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: so thinking Tuesday?
# [18:08] <dbaron> s/Any other items? No?/Any other items? I saw dbaron's email. No?/
# [18:08] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Let me know by end of day
# [18:09] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Would like to know who's interested in topic and which night is better
# [18:09] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: That's it
# [18:09] <fantasai> glazou asks about weather
# [18:09] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: We have had historic lows
# [18:09] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: 7-8 days under freezing at night
# [18:10] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: beautiful -- sun shining, sky clear -- but cold
# [18:10] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: Looks like it's warming up
# [18:10] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: don't need winter coats, but bring heavy sweater
# [18:10] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: will keep you posted
# [18:10] <sylvaing> where is the list of bridge numbers?
# [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [18:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [18:10] <dbaron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson#Climate
# [18:10] <sylvaing> that number rings busy; any other?
# [18:11] <glazou> that's the only one I have :(
# [18:11] <dbaron> FWIW, I find doing a meetup after 9 hours of meeting to be rather exhausting...
# [18:12] <fantasai> [discussion of concerns wrt which day]
# [18:12] <glazou> hey come one, he won't even change of TZ :-)
# [18:12] <glazou> s/come on
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# [18:12] <fantasai> mollyholzschlag: will aim for Tuesday then
# [18:13] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I could give a presentation on CSS for printing
# [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: call it Tues unless objection
# [18:13] * sylvaing well, no phone for me...
# [18:13] <SimonSapin> sylvaing: not even SIP?
# [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Please put topics on the F2F agenda!
# [18:13] <sylvaing> ah yes, trying that
# [18:14] <Zakim> +??P66
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> s/sylvaing:/sylvaing,/
# [18:14] <dbaron> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0051.html
# [18:14] <smfr> dbaron: very echoy
# [18:14] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/thread.html#msg47
# [18:14] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/thread.html#msg200
# [18:14] <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19737
# [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: There are multiple implementations of viewport units, but major issue that prevents them from working right
# [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Don't interact with scrollbars the way we want them to
# [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Can't decide today, but next week.
# [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: We're pretty close to shipping, but can pull back if needed
# [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Please look this thread over so we can decide next week
# [18:16] <fantasai> dbaron: Tab and I are both thinking that if scrollbars on viewport are overflow: scroll/auto, you do subtract scrollbars. If hidden, then you don't
# [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: So subtract scrollbar even if in overflow: auto case where no scrollbars
# [18:17] <fantasai> smfr: Trying to avoid relaying out after trying the first time?
# [18:17] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So you will have cases that 100vw won't match the size of the ICB?
# [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: This would cause that to be the case.
# [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: 100vw could be smaller than ICB by width of potential scrollbar in 'auto' case
# [18:18] <fantasai> Rossen: One downside to this proposal, in default case where overflow is auto, always subtracting scrollbars
# [18:18] <fantasai> Rossen: For layouts that are designed to fit within viewport, will have a gap
# [18:18] <fantasai> Rossen: I see your reasoning for why you're subtracting the scrollbar
# [18:19] <fantasai> Rossen: But I think we're shortcutting the implementation here.
# [18:19] <fantasai> Rossen: Cases e.g. want to fill a canvas to screen
# [18:19] <fantasai> Rossen: For us might not be a huge deal, since we're overlay scrollbars regardless for viewport
# [18:19] <fantasai> Rossen: But I think we should think it through a bit more.
# [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron: It's more than just circularity, but also layering problem.
# [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron: Don't want computed values to be a function of layout
# [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: But do we make them so they behave like 'scroll' or so they behave like 'hidden' for 'auto' case.
# [18:20] <fantasai> Rossen: Need to decide which case we're optimizing for
# [18:20] <fantasai> Rossen: want to reinforce that what I've seen for most case is
# [18:20] <fantasai> Rossen: ppl building layouts that usually fit without scrolling
# [18:20] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:20] <fantasai> Rossen: Maybe we can poll some public input
# [18:20] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
# [18:20] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: A bunch of cases where you could use viewport units, you could use 100%
# [18:21] <koji> sylvaing: US number just connected
# [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Wondering what are solid use cases for viewport units where you can't use 100%
# [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Not entirely obvious to me what those cases are
# [18:21] <fantasai> Rossen: viewport unit to size pages
# [18:21] <fantasai> Rossen: laid out side-by-side, or one-page view
# [18:21] <fantasai> Rossen: always fit in the viwport
# [18:22] <fantasai> Rossen: usually no scrollbar there
# [18:22] <fantasai> Rossen: in our case we use overlay scrollbars for viewport
# [18:22] <fantasai> Rossen: probably not make that much difference
# [18:22] <fantasai> Rossen: want for us to not make this decision lightly without more input from users, and looking at real cases
# [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: If you have examples you can post, that would be great
# [18:22] * fantasai suggests mollyholzschlag ask for use cases, examples
# [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: A use case I have is a slide deck in HTML
# [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: Most of the time they don't have scrollbars
# [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: But sometimes you wind up on a display that's different size than you designed for
# [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: When that happens, don't want to get cut off, want to scroll and have that work
# [18:23] * fantasai thinks it's better to fill by default than gap by default for that case
# [18:23] <Zakim> +Tantek
# [18:23] <tantek> Zakim, mute Tantek
# [18:23] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
# [18:23] <fantasai> Rossen: Not sure if it's up to us to decide, or poll more opinions here
# [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Could also revisit decision to make viewport units compute to an absolute length, treat more like percentages.
# [18:25] * Quits: arno (~arnog@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: We'd pull our implementation then, b/c too expensive a feature to be worth implementing
# [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: Come back to this next week.
# [18:25] <fantasai> Topic: Pointer Events
# [18:25] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0182.html
# [18:25] <sylvaing> I'm answering Tab's question right now
# [18:25] * Joins: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [18:25] <sylvaing> on www-style
# [18:25] <sylvaing> Let me see if I can call in
# [18:26] <fantasai> plinss: Pointer Events WG is asking for feedback
# [18:26] <fantasai> plinss: Please review
# [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: Tab and I both sent email to their list
# [18:26] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:26] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <fantasai> smfr: Don't really understand why this is necessary since ? does these things based on whether nodes have touch event handlers
# [18:26] * fantasai missed the critical parts of that statement apparently
# [18:27] <smfr> for the touch-action property
# [18:27] <fantasai> smfr: So I'd like to see more justification for ??? property
# [18:27] <Bert> 'touch-action' property
# [18:27] <dbaron> Tab sent http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0017.html ; I sent http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0018.html
# [18:27] <fantasai> ted: ...
# [18:27] <fantasai> sylvaing: What kind of justification looking for?
# [18:27] <hober> hober: i don't think we need touch-action when we already have preventDefault
# [18:27] <fantasai> smfr: Think it's possible to get the behavior by registering touch events
# [18:27] <dbaron> sylvaing: More productive for developers to do declaratively.
# [18:28] <fantasai> smfr: Seems like use case here is ... default panning/zooming behavior of UA
# [18:28] <fantasai> smfr: Authors want to do that when want to create their own handlers
# [18:28] <fantasai> sylvaing: Idea is you want to be able to put your finger anywhere on the page, and have document follow your finger
# [18:28] <fantasai> sylvaing: or pinch and have it zoom
# [18:28] <fantasai> sylvaing: or in an overflow: scroll box, have panning/zooming only affect content inside that box
# [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: Idea is for author to say that panning and zooming applies to a particular subtree
# [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: Things inside me zoom out and pan together, but not things outside it
# [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: Much easier to do that way than writing events
# [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: So what you said about how it works is not at all how I read the spec as saying
# [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: in that what it seems to say to me was
# [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: There's a set of things that can handle these events
# [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Not entirely clear to me what those are, but sounded that if you had another one that could potentially do that inside your map, then the fact that you set 'none' value on an ancestor of the map, doesn't prevent the inner thing from handling the event
# [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: So map has none, everything inside has auto,
# [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: you have another none container in there?
# [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: For the map thing you were talking about, what do you put the none on?
# [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: thing that contains the map
# [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: The parent of the thing that handles the touch stuff?
# [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: or element that handles the touch stuff?
# [18:31] <smfr> +q
# [18:31] * Zakim sees smfr on the speaker queue
# [18:31] * glazou can feel sylvaing interrogative face over the phone
# [18:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: You guys referring to connection between property and ...
# [18:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: Not sure I follow the problem
# [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: Maybe discuss this later, but spec should be clearer about what it's saying
# [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: though maybe feedback I sent was based on completely misunderstanding what the spec was saying
# [18:32] <fantasai> sylvaing: ok, will try to check your email and see what it says
# [18:32] <fantasai> smfr: For example, is it the UA doing panning/zooming inside the thing, or the page using pointer events?
# [18:32] <fantasai> sylvaing: can do both, can intercept the evnts
# [18:32] <fantasai> sylvaing: touch-action: none turns off UA behavior
# [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing: it's a way of saying elements that don't do special handling, event passes up; this says whether to stop at some intermediate ancestor
# [18:33] <fantasai> smfr: Still sounds exactly what you can do with event handlers
# [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing: Can of course do with JS, but much easier to do with CSS
# [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing: It's syntactic sugar
# [18:34] <tpod> Zakim unsure tantek
# [18:34] <fantasai> sylvaing: for a use case that's very common
# [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: Making declarative rather than script makes sense
# [18:34] <tpod> Zakim unmute tantek
# [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: Bothered a little bit if we're defining feature at too low a level, when concerned about a higher-level concept.
# [18:34] <tpod> Zakim, unmute tantek
# [18:34] <Zakim> Tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: If the issue is panning/zooming, should that be a touch event? Or work for other pointer inputs?
# [18:35] * BradK would like a declarative approach that handled scroll wheel events too.
# [18:35] <fantasai> smfr: Tendency of this spec to [...] pointer-events , which is different from pointer-events property, which is confusing
# [18:35] * fantasai missed that too :/
# [18:35] <fantasai> plinss: My issue is, instead of touch-action, shouldn't this be panning-and-zooming?
# [18:35] <tpod> Q+ to mention map example requires js
# [18:35] * Zakim sees smfr, tpod on the speaker queue
# [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yeah, naming is confusing, even values 'auto' / 'none' are confusing
# [18:36] <smfr> There's a dependency from the CSS pointer-events spec on the DOM "pointer events" proposal
# [18:36] <tpod> Zakim, tpod is tantek
# [18:36] <Zakim> sorry, tpod, I do not recognize a party named 'tpod'
# [18:36] <fantasai> plinss: Any feedback on this?
# [18:36] <smfr> (http://www.w3.org/Submission/pointer-events/)
# [18:36] <fantasai> plinss: Any group response?
# [18:36] * glazou is afk a second, someone ringing on door's bell
# [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: I guess group response is, this is confusing? :)
# [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Interaction with actual events isn't clear
# [18:36] * glazou is back
# [18:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: And feedback wrt naming being inappropriate
# [18:37] <fantasai> tantek: Example you mentioned with maps... that requires JS to make the maps work
# [18:37] <fantasai> tantek: While I agree with having declarative shorthands
# [18:37] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:37] <fantasai> tantek: But if you're going to have an example of how declarative-only feature is useful
# [18:37] <fantasai> tantek: Should be an example that doesn't require JS for the rest of the example to work
# [18:38] <fantasai> tantek: whatever the example is, should be declarative only, rather than depend on JS
# [18:38] * fantasai agrees with tantek
# [18:38] <fantasai> tantek: otherwise echo Simon's concern -- if you're doing things with JS anyway, have to handle details there anyway
# [18:38] * smfr just noticed that this is the pointer events spec
# [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: Could be picture, not a map
# [18:38] <tpod> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:38] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
# [18:38] <fantasai> tantek: Not saying declarative-only can't exist, just asking that they be used as examples
# [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Happy to take 3 points here as feedback: naming is unclear, example should be declarative, spec is confusing
# [18:39] * Bert agrees with tantek, too: the only reason to stop defautl actions is if there is some event handler that defines diffeent actions. So the presence of that handler seems enough to stop the default actions.
# [18:39] <fantasai> plinss asks for volunteers
# [18:40] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Masking
# [18:40] <smfr> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
# [18:40] <fantasai> krit: I would like to go to LC, but first would like a review of it
# [18:40] <fantasai> krit: also got email from dbaron today
# [18:40] <fantasai> krit: he suggested that we share more text between CSS Backgrounds and CSS Masking
# [18:41] <fantasai> krit: But feel that context of property defs is different from Backgrounds
# [18:41] <fantasai> krit: Also worried about reading 2 specs instead of one
# [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: Flip side is that for ppl reading both specs, if it were shared, only read once
# [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: If not shared, have to read twice and figure out the differences.
# [18:41] <fantasai> krit: but are different
# [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: Different that applying to mask image instead of bg image, but would hope it's possible to encapsulate that in a small chunk of prose
# [18:42] <tpod> Q-
# [18:42] * Zakim sees smfr on the speaker queue
# [18:42] <fantasai> krit: If someone is interested in both specs, CSS Masking and CSS background, then a lot of stuff is very familiar for him
# [18:42] <smfr> q-
# [18:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:42] <fantasai> krit: But on the other hand, for someone who isn't interested in BG
# [18:42] <fantasai> krit: needs to read two specs to understand one
# [18:43] <Zakim> -Tantek
# [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: One problem with duplicating the prose is that error-fixes have to go into both specs, which is a maintainability issue
# [18:43] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2013JanMar/0017.html was my post that dirk's responding to
# [18:43] <Zakim> +Tantek
# [18:43] <tpod> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:43] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
# [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: Replicating prose also hides any differences; have to find the differences, then decide whether was editorial, was missing error fix, or was substantive intentional difference
# [18:45] <fantasai> BradK: Any reason why we can't have a bg property that turns the current layer of the bg into a mask? Then don't have to recreate all other properties as mask properties
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: Intention was to specify behavior of webkit masking, combine with svg masking
# [18:45] <dbaron> So I think krit might have been asking a question there, but I couldn't hear it well enough because he's talking too quickly.
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: Reuse bg property, then cannot use bg property itself
# [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Really want those two to cascade independently.
# [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Two completely different concepts, would want to reset independently
# [18:46] <fantasai> BradK: ...
# [18:46] <fantasai> BradK: Also in many cases might want to use a bg image as a mask; this way have to set properties twice
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: Comment to that... currently masking masks the whole element
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: was a suggestion to be able to mask different parts of a box
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: not the whole thing
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: compositing and blending has a new property for that
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: and it allows to explicitly say blend this element, or blend this part of the element
# [18:47] <Zakim> -Tantek
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: I think this is a good idea to add to filter effects / masking, but is a different topic
# [18:47] <fantasai> krit: Don't agree that masking can be combined with background the right way
# [18:47] <Zakim> +Tantek
# [18:48] <fantasai> BradK: That it can't or that not right solution
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Both.
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Seems easier to use that way, already know how to use all the bg properties
# [18:48] <fantasai> s/krit/BradK/
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Masking is not just masking the background, so why would we use background properties for it?
# [18:49] <fantasai> BradK: Not saying that bg property would only mask bg, ..
# [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: wouldn't it be confusing for a background property to be masking the foreground
# [18:49] <fantasai> BradK: Already defining images associated with element
# [18:49] <dbaron> fantasai: It's not an "images associated with the element" property, it's a background property.
# [18:49] <fantasai> smfr: ... not just content in this element, but also descendants
# [18:49] * sylvaing Bert, no, you may want to stop a default action from propagating higher up without needed a custom handler. It's perfectly reasonable to want the content of an element to pan and zoom without affecting the document outside that container.
# [18:49] <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
# [18:50] <fantasai> krit: This would actually revert a previous decision of the WG to use a mask property, and is beyond what I want to discuss with this spec at the moment
# [18:50] <fantasai> krit: Would like to avoid to revert that decision
# [18:50] <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
# [18:50] <tpod> Seems like a bad idea to collapse with bg props
# [18:51] <tpod> Agreed with krit
# [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: Seems like a bad idea to overload bg props with something that isn't about backgrounds. Seems like a hack to me
# [18:51] <fantasai> krit: Fine with referencing text from bg as much as possible, but still need property definitions in the masking spec
# [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: Agree for that, but also page of prose that looks like it's copied from bg spec, and unclear what the differences are
# [18:52] <tpod> We have other similar but different properties eg border and outline
# [18:52] <tpod> Defaults are different, collapsing is different. Etc.
# [18:52] <tpod> Yet they share a lot
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# [18:52] <fantasai> krit: So, refernece text if not different, copy if diffeerent, OK.
# [18:53] <fantasai> BradK: Define how it interacts with overflow?
# [18:53] <fantasai> BradK: not quite clear on that
# [18:53] <fantasai> ...
# [18:53] <fantasai> krit: clip property from CSS2, copied over
# [18:53] <Zakim> -??P66
# [18:53] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:54] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft.aa is me
# [18:54] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:54] <fantasai> krit: Ok, so CSS Masking needs to define how it interacts with overflow
# [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: Anything else on Masking?
# [18:55] <fantasai> smfr: Do we have enough input from vendors other than WebKit to take this to LC?
# [18:56] <fantasai> krit: New mask property just implemented by webkit
# [18:56] <fantasai> krit: Would vendors be generally interested in following WebKit? Did not start an implementatio nyet
# [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: I haven't really looked at the spec closely
# [18:56] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: I can try and poke roc about it, better reveiwer for it
# [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: I would like a week to review
# [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: It's painful to review right now, due to copied prose from Background
# [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: And what I'm interested in is what's different
# [18:57] <fantasai> smfr: Sounds like we want some editing before we say LC
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:57] * Quits: JohnJansen_ (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: So how about you make the edits so that the differences from BG become clear, then we all review it, and if it's good, send to LC
# [18:57] <fantasai> BradK: Question about ?-clip
# [18:58] <fantasai> BradK: no-clip
# [18:58] <fantasai> BradK: What if you have a repeating image? Does it repeat across the whole viewport?
# [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: This was removed from css3-bg
# [18:58] <fantasai> krit: This is because by default, masks will clip everything to border box
# [18:58] <fantasai> krit: no-clip avoids clipping to border box
# [18:59] <fantasai> krit: Allows to show content outside border box
# [18:59] <fantasai> krit: It could mask whole viewport; but content itself doesn't flood whole viewport
# [18:59] * sylvaing needs to go; bye all
# [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [18:59] <fantasai> BradK: Should specify that explicitly, because alternate interpretation is to clip to tiles that fit within border box
# [18:59] <fantasai> krit: Could you send mail to public-fx? Thanks
# [18:59] <dbaron> I think no-clip does make sense as a masking difference from css3-background, though.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:00] <Zakim> -darktears
# [19:00] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
# [19:00] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:00] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:00] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:00] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [19:00] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
# [19:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
# [19:00] <Zakim> -koji
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# [19:00] <BradK> s/that fit within/that are at least partially within
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
# [19:01] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:01] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Tantek
# [19:01] <Zakim> -??P40
# [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were darktears, krit, glazou, +1.206.675.aaaa, stearns, +1.415.615.aabb, plinss, rhauck, SimonSapin1, +93192aacc, antonp, hober, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, dbaron,
# [19:01] <Zakim> ... +1.650.766.aadd, BradK, smfr, JohnJansen, koji, Tantek, [Microsoft], Rossen
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# [20:04] * Quits: sylvaing (~sylvaing@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [20:25] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@public.cloak) (jarek)
# [20:33] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [20:55] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [20:55] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [20:58] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
# [21:02] * Joins: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [21:22] * Joins: sylvaing (~sylvaing@public.cloak)
# [21:23] * Quits: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [21:28] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [21:31] * Joins: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [21:48] * Quits: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [21:50] * Joins: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak)
# [21:58] * Quits: sylvaing (~sylvaing@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [21:59] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:00] * Quits: tpod (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
# [22:01] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
# [22:52] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [23:03] * Joins: arno (~arnog@public.cloak)
# [23:05] * Quits: arno (~arnog@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:07] * Joins: arno (~arnog@public.cloak)
# [23:28] * Joins: macpherson (~macpherson@public.cloak)
# [23:41] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [23:41] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:44] * Joins: sylvaing (~sylvaing@public.cloak)
# [23:45] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:49] * Quits: macpherson (~macpherson@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [23:52] * Joins: macpherson (~macpherson@public.cloak)
# [23:58] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
# Session Close: Thu Jan 17 00:00:00 2013

The end :)