/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-01-23 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  73. # [17:21] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  74. # [17:21] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
  75. # [17:21] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  76. # [17:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  77. # [17:23] <SimonSapin> Well, that was easy :) https://github.com/Kozea/WeasyPrint/commit/829c758788
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  86. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  87. # [17:55] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  88. # [17:55] <glazou> for those of you using Colloquy : http://colloquy.info/project/wiki/Documentation/TipsAndTricks/HiddenPreferences#Tabcompletionstring
  89. # [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  90. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P2
  91. # [17:56] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p2 is me
  92. # [17:56] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  93. # [17:56] * mollyholzschlag is hovering on IRC, ping if you have F2F q's or want to add yourself to the meetup
  94. # [17:57] <jdaggett> what's the temp in tucson?
  95. # [17:57] * jdaggett can use google but feels real people are better search engines...
  96. # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit
  97. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P10
  98. # [17:58] <Zakim> +rhauck
  99. # [17:58] * jdaggett wishes he were sleeping...
  100. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P10 is me
  101. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  102. # [17:58] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  103. # [17:58] * krit jdaggett sleep prevents you from working
  104. # [17:58] <glazou> mollyholzschlag, I can attend
  105. # [17:59] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  106. # [17:59] * jdaggett i'm liking it even more now...
  107. # [17:59] <mollyholzschlag> it's going to be 80f today in Tucson
  108. # [17:59] <mollyholzschlag> bring yer bathing suits!
  109. # [17:59] <Zakim> +??P22
  110. # [17:59] <jdaggett> holy cow
  111. # [17:59] * Joins: leif (~leif@public.cloak)
  112. # [17:59] <mollyholzschlag> glazou: will you speak for a few minutes
  113. # [17:59] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  114. # [18:00] <Zakim> -??P22
  115. # [18:00] <mollyholzschlag> or more than a few minutes even? ;)
  116. # [18:00] <glazou> mollyholzschlag, I can even do that, yes :-) Let me practice my best french accent first, ok ? ;-)
  117. # [18:00] <SimonSapin> mollyholzschlag: I could talk about Paged Media and WeasyPrint
  118. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P19
  119. # [18:00] * darktears_ is now known as darktears
  120. # [18:00] <mollyholzschlag> LOL! you bet Daniel
  121. # [18:00] <mollyholzschlag> Simon - got the email, you're on. How much time do you want?
  122. # [18:01] <darktears> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  123. # [18:01] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
  124. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aaaa
  125. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> not sure … anything in 5~15min should be fine, I’ll adapt
  126. # [18:01] <leif> Zakim, aaaa is me
  127. # [18:01] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  128. # [18:01] <mollyholzschlag> cool Simon, thanks so much!
  129. # [18:01] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  130. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P20
  131. # [18:01] * Joins: SimonSapin1 (~simon@public.cloak)
  132. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Stearns
  133. # [18:01] <jdaggett> hey, don't blame me
  134. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  135. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.417.671.aabb
  136. # [18:02] <jdaggett> i'm awake at least
  137. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  138. # [18:02] <jdaggett> ouch
  139. # [18:02] <glenn> zakim, [IPcaller] has glenn
  140. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  141. # [18:02] <florian> Zakim, IPCaller has me
  142. # [18:02] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  143. # [18:03] <jdaggett> typing and eating never mix...
  144. # [18:03] <jdaggett> hmmm, now toilet sounds, lovely...
  145. # [18:03] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  146. # [18:03] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  147. # [18:03] <jdaggett> florian is joining us from the men's room?
  148. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +44.180.383.aacc
  149. # [18:03] <sylvaing> Zakim, what kind of a screwed up casing is this?
  150. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sylvaing.
  151. # [18:03] <Zakim> +hober
  152. # [18:04] <jdaggett> that would be....
  153. # [18:04] * sylvaing this case-sensitivity madness is driving Zakim mad. We must stop.
  154. # [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
  155. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  156. # [18:04] <jdaggett> the man in the toilet, no?
  157. # [18:04] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  158. # [18:04] <Zakim> +cabanier
  159. # [18:05] <glenn> zakim, who's on the phone?
  160. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett, krit, glazou, rhauck, darktears, leif, ??P20, Stearns, plinss, +1.417.671.aabb (muted), [IPcaller], SylvaIng, antonp, hober, cabanier
  161. # [18:05] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  162. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  163. # [18:05] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  164. # [18:05] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
  165. # [18:05] <glenn> zakim, aabb is me
  166. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  167. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P52
  168. # [18:06] <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
  169. # [18:06] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  170. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> Zakim still has me with the wrong nickname…
  171. # [18:06] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
  172. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim tries to give me a turkish I
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smfr
  174. # [18:07] <jdaggett> StOppppppp....
  175. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  176. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  177. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett, krit, glazou, rhauck, darktears, leif, ??P20, Stearns, plinss, glenn (muted), [IPcaller], SylvaIng, antonp, hober, cabanier, fantasai, ??P52,
  178. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... SimonSapin1, smfr, [Microsoft]
  179. # [18:07] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  180. # [18:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnJansen, smfr, oyvind, SimonSapin, florian, lmclister, leif, cabanier, antonp, mollyholzschlag, glenn, jdaggett, rhauck, Zakim, glazou, trackbot, dbaron, krit,
  181. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... shepazu, darktears, Ms2ger, krijnh, arronei, liam, Hixie, sawrubh
  182. # [18:07] <antonp> @Sylvaing, but uppercased it's the same, don't worry
  183. # [18:08] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0299.html'
  184. # [18:08] <sylvaing> antonp, but how does it match in JS?
  185. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  186. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  187. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  188. # [18:08] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  189. # [18:09] <glazou> ScribeNick: cabanier
  190. # [18:09] <cabanier> scribenic: cabanier
  191. # [18:09] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
  192. # [18:09] <cabanier> glazou: first item
  193. # [18:09] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  194. # [18:09] * krit needs to be careful on the the minutes for background and blending now :)
  195. # [18:09] <cabanier> topic: Scribe, extra agenda items and other digressions
  196. # [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  197. # [18:09] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  198. # [18:10] <cabanier> glazou: she sent a message to let Tucson know that we appreciate that they helped out with the meeting
  199. # [18:10] <cabanier> … please book hotels and fligts soon
  200. # [18:10] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0334.html
  201. # [18:10] <cabanier> topic: loadFont()
  202. # [18:10] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#fontloader-interface
  203. # [18:10] <cabanier> jdaggett: this is a proposal for a change
  204. # [18:11] <cabanier> … basically the descriptiion of load in the current spec
  205. # [18:11] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  206. # [18:11] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett (90%), glazou (4%), [IPcaller] (10%)
  207. # [18:11] <cabanier> … the version that is in the spec now will load a specific set of fonts but it doesn't set any callback
  208. # [18:11] <glazou> florian, you're noisy
  209. # [18:11] <cabanier> … several people noted that this was cumbersome
  210. # [18:12] <cabanier> … and that it was easier to set up the callbacks at the same time
  211. # [18:12] * Joins: dino (~dino@public.cloak)
  212. # [18:12] <cabanier> glazou: why no onprogress callback?
  213. # [18:12] <cabanier> jdaggett: that would be possible
  214. # [18:13] * fantasai finally found the headset for the phone
  215. # [18:13] <cabanier> glazou: yes, it think it would be useful to notify the user
  216. # [18:13] * dino zakim, passcode?
  217. # [18:13] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, dino
  218. # [18:13] <cabanier> jdaggett: that would make sense. reasonable
  219. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  220. # [18:13] <cabanier> florian: yes
  221. # [18:13] * dino zakim, IPcaller.a is me
  222. # [18:13] * Zakim +dino; got it
  223. # [18:13] <cabanier> jdaggett: yes, it makes things easier for users
  224. # [18:14] <cabanier> florian: yes, that is a good thing
  225. # [18:14] <cabanier> jdaggett: I will look at the font progress handler
  226. # [18:14] <cabanier> … and will put it in the spec
  227. # [18:14] <cabanier> glazou: does anyone else have a comment?
  228. # [18:14] <cabanier> smfr: I'm a little confused
  229. # [18:14] <cabanier> … why is this on the font loader interface?
  230. # [18:15] <cabanier> … the modern way is to do addEventListener
  231. # [18:15] <cabanier> … I'm unsure why you need all the 'on-' attributes on this font interface
  232. # [18:15] <cabanier> jdaggett: I need to think about that
  233. # [18:16] <cabanier> smfr: I haven't seen this pop up on modern APIs lately so don't know if it makes sense
  234. # [18:16] <cabanier> glazou: I agree with Simon
  235. # [18:16] <cabanier> florian: in isolation John's proposal makes sense but if it's different from everything on the platform maybe not
  236. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> Modern APIs like WebSocket? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/network.html#the-websocket-interface
  237. # [18:17] <cabanier> … we need a broader debate to discuss
  238. # [18:17] <cabanier> dino: it should be possible to base this on the XHR interface
  239. # [18:18] <cabanier> … it would be a single call like addEventListener with the event type
  240. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> XHR: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#xmlhttprequesteventtarget
  241. # [18:18] <cabanier> … the current proposal is halfway in between of the 2 worlds
  242. # [18:18] <smfr> Ms2ger: i see 'onfoo' is used there, so maybe it's ok here
  243. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> The majority of new APIs do have onfoo, AFAICT
  244. # [18:19] <cabanier> jdaggett: the whole point is to support the canvas use case
  245. # [18:19] <cabanier> jdaggett: I think this is better taken offline and will update the proposal
  246. # [18:20] <cabanier> topic: viewport Units
  247. # [18:20] <cabanier> See last week's minutes
  248. # [18:20] <cabanier> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0220.html
  249. # [18:20] <dino> Yeah, I misunderstood this to be *starting* font loads, rather than querying
  250. # [18:20] <cabanier> glazou: we're getting back to this this week
  251. # [18:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  252. # [18:21] <cabanier> rossen: I'm going to keep looking
  253. # [18:21] <cabanier> glazou: Is there anything new about viewport units
  254. # [18:21] <cabanier> rossen: no
  255. # [18:21] <cabanier> topic: SVG attributes and CSS properties
  256. # [18:21] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0291.html
  257. # [18:21] <Zakim> +Tab_Atkins
  258. # [18:22] <cabanier> krit: in SVG we have a lot of attributes such as x,y, width and height
  259. # [18:22] * shepazu is on IRC
  260. # [18:22] <cabanier> … and the SVG WG wants to turn those to CSS atributes
  261. # [18:22] * shepazu wonders if he should call in?
  262. # [18:22] <fantasai> new about viewport units: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0312.html
  263. # [18:22] * sylvaing is that a trick question?
  264. # [18:22] * shepazu Zakim, code?
  265. # [18:22] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, shepazu
  266. # [18:22] * glazou shepazu, no way :-)
  267. # [18:23] <cabanier> … this was discussed before but the CSS WG wasn't really happy with it and want circle_x, rect_y, et
  268. # [18:23] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
  269. # [18:23] <cabanier> … but it would be really nice if we can just keep the attributes
  270. # [18:23] * glazou humpf :-)
  271. # [18:23] <cabanier> … because otherwise it's very confusing for authors
  272. # [18:23] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  273. # [18:23] <cabanier> … and they would have learn 2 syntaxes
  274. # [18:23] * shepazu glazou :)
  275. # [18:24] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I'm not very happy but Dirk's argument is reasonable
  276. # [18:24] <cabanier> … so I'm OK with it
  277. # [18:24] <cabanier> dbaron: are these REAL css properties?
  278. # [18:24] <cabanier> krit: yes
  279. # [18:24] <cabanier> do you have the list?
  280. # [18:24] <cabanier> krit: no, not right here
  281. # [18:24] <Zakim> -leif
  282. # [18:24] <cabanier> cabanier: didn't Microsoft make that list?
  283. # [18:24] <dbaron> (alternative in my question was whether they were pseudo-properties that apply only to animations)
  284. # [18:24] <cabanier> krit: yes
  285. # [18:25] <cabanier> smfr: there was an other proposal to add an SVG- prefix
  286. # [18:25] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I'm against that since some would be prefixes and others wouldn't
  287. # [18:25] <shepazu> [not just about animations, useful for applying characteristics to all SVG elements]
  288. # [18:26] <cabanier> … .some would be prefixed and others that are already in CSS wouldn't
  289. # [18:26] <cabanier> …. I'm looking for the list
  290. # [18:26] <cabanier> florian: are there collisions:
  291. # [18:26] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I don't think so
  292. # [18:26] <shepazu> [width, height…]
  293. # [18:26] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/css-animation/animation-proposal.html
  294. # [18:26] <cabanier> … there are some that have the same name would take different parameters
  295. # [18:26] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  296. # [18:26] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  297. # [18:27] <cabanier> … x attribute on tspan and others are different
  298. # [18:27] <dbaron> TabAtkins: ... one accepts a list of values, one acceps a singel value
  299. # [18:27] <cabanier> krit: I pasted the list. Not all of those are necessary
  300. # [18:27] <cabanier> TabAtkins: most are for filters so we can eliminate those in the first pass
  301. # [18:28] * leif must leave; my apologies
  302. # [18:28] <cabanier> rossen: in the CSS shapes graph we try to stick to the SVG syntax name
  303. # [18:28] <dino> The list does not include 'd'
  304. # [18:28] * glazou is rossen calling from the matrix ? weird noise in background
  305. # [18:28] <dino> path::d
  306. # [18:28] <cabanier> … I suggest we be consistent everywhere
  307. # [18:29] <cabanier> … and use a similar naming convention
  308. # [18:29] * fantasai are we doing camelCase -> camel-case?
  309. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Oh god yes.
  310. # [18:29] * shepazu notes that they might be exposed in a CSSOM, in some way
  311. # [18:29] <cabanier> … in that spec we tried to match SVG syntax as much as possible
  312. # [18:30] <cabanier> krit: the SVG WG is looking into synchronizing it better and be more like the CSS syntax
  313. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> cx, cy, cx, dy, fx, fy, height, width, offset, r, rx, ry, x, x1, x2, y, y1, y2
  314. # [18:30] <cabanier> … but it needs more discussion
  315. # [18:30] <shepazu> (I think the SVG WG would be okay with 'camel-case')
  316. # [18:30] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I pasted a list
  317. # [18:30] <cabanier> … most of them have very short names
  318. # [18:30] * shepazu … maybe too short!
  319. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> d
  320. # [18:31] <cabanier> … and it should include 'd'
  321. # [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  322. # [18:31] <Zakim> On the phone I see jdaggett, krit, glazou, rhauck, darktears, ??P20, Stearns, plinss, glenn (muted), [IPcaller], SylvaIng, antonp, hober, cabanier, fantasai, ??P52, SimonSapin1,
  323. # [18:31] <cabanier> … so you can update it
  324. # [18:31] * fantasai had been thinking to use offset as a shorthand for offset-*
  325. # [18:31] <Zakim> ... smfr, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], dbaron, SteveZ, dino, Tab_Atkins, Doug_Schepers
  326. # [18:31] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  327. # [18:31] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  328. # [18:31] <Zakim> -??P20
  329. # [18:31] <dbaron> so we're not talking about the full list at http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/css-animation/animation-proposal.html#def_attributes anymore?
  330. # [18:31] <cabanier> dino: maybe it should be the list that do geometric modifications
  331. # [18:32] <sylvaing> height/width take same values in SVG/CSS?
  332. # [18:32] * Quits: leif (~leif@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  333. # [18:32] <cabanier> krit: David, that is correct. We're not talking about the full list
  334. # [18:32] * fantasai sylvaing, good point
  335. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> If you ignore the gradient properties, you can drop fx, fy, and offset as well.
  336. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Yes, height/width are the same as CSS
  337. # [18:32] <dbaron> I presume Tab's second "cx" should have been a "dx", perhaps?
  338. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> yes
  339. # [18:32] <cabanier> krit: I don't think we should drop those to create very reasonable effects
  340. # [18:33] <cabanier> hober: would this affect non-svg elements?
  341. # [18:33] <cabanier> TabAtkins: no, they would be element specific
  342. # [18:33] <cabanier> hober: would there be author confusion since in SVG you can position with x and y but not with HTML
  343. # [18:34] <cabanier> TabAtkins: the geometric properties are specific to the SVG layout model
  344. # [18:34] <cabanier> … for instance, you can't use 'flex' on arbitrary elements
  345. # [18:34] <shepazu> +1 to SVG layout spec
  346. # [18:34] <cabanier> … we can frame it as: these are SVG layout properties that only apply to SVG elements
  347. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> `display: svg` ?
  348. # [18:35] <cabanier> hober: isn't that an argument for the SVG prefix?
  349. # [18:35] <cabanier> TabAtkins: no. it would be very confusing to have a bunch of SVG dashes
  350. # [18:36] <cabanier> shepazu: I think it would be confusing to have to use the SVG prefix. non intuitive
  351. # [18:36] * sylvaing kind of likes the self-documenting/disambiguation of svg-
  352. # [18:36] * jdaggett famous last words...
  353. # [18:36] <dbaron> we have 3-character property names like 'top'
  354. # [18:36] * sylvaing we really need a bikeshed module to codify this discussion process...
  355. # [18:37] <cabanier> TabAtkins: since CSS is not going to use these short names, it's OK for SVG to use it
  356. # [18:37] <cabanier> dbaron: will width/height require units?
  357. # [18:37] * shepazu proposes adding [a-z] as svg properties
  358. # [18:37] <cabanier> TabAtkins: you are correct
  359. # [18:37] * sylvaing also, doug-says- is a fine prefix
  360. # [18:37] <cabanier> krit: we already do that. For example font size
  361. # [18:37] <cabanier> … so it would require units
  362. # [18:38] <dbaron> schepazu: yes, it would require units
  363. # [18:38] * TabAtkins shep, you mean [rcf]?[a-z][0-9]?
  364. # [18:38] <cabanier> shepazu: we're not proposing a change to CSS syntax and parsing
  365. # [18:38] <cabanier> glazou: is there a consensus?
  366. # [18:38] * shepazu are we consensed?
  367. # [18:39] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  368. # [18:39] <Zakim> -??P52
  369. # [18:39] <cabanier> list: cx, cy, cx, dy, fx, fy, height, width, offset, r, rx, ry, x, x1, x2, y, y1, y2
  370. # [18:39] <shepazu> cx, cy, cx, dy, fx, fy, height, width, offset, r, rx, ry, x, x1, x2, y, y1, y2, d
  371. # [18:39] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  372. # [18:39] * shepazu note the addition of d
  373. # [18:39] <cabanier> dbaron: what is the proposal?
  374. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> cx, cy, dx, dy, fx, fy, height, width, offset, r, rx, ry, x, x1, x2, y, y1, y2 and maybe d
  375. # [18:40] * shepazu … and sometimes y
  376. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> proposal ^^^
  377. # [18:40] <cabanier> TabAtkins: this is the list of attributes that we want to promote into property names
  378. # [18:40] * sylvaing 'and this is how we ended up with the maybe property'
  379. # [18:40] <dbaron> so the proposal is to add CSS properties of those names corresponding to the equivalent SVG attributes?
  380. # [18:40] <cabanier> TabAtkins: yes
  381. # [18:40] <cabanier> dbaron: what happens with tspan?
  382. # [18:40] <cabanier> krit: we need to discuss in the SVG WG
  383. # [18:41] <cabanier> TabAtkins: it's resolvable. worst case we reset them to initil
  384. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> x is in the list but not y ?
  385. # [18:41] <cabanier> … we'll figure something out
  386. # [18:41] * TabAtkins simon, y is in the list.
  387. # [18:41] <cabanier> shepazu: it's also possible that we abandon multiple values
  388. # [18:41] <dbaron> s/initil/initial if they're in the wrong form/
  389. # [18:42] <cabanier> glazou: does everyone agreeing. Are there objections?
  390. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> ah indeed, thanks Tab
  391. # [18:42] <dbaron> I'm not exactly happy about it, but not objecting.
  392. # [18:42] * shepazu w00t
  393. # [18:42] <hober> like dbaron, i'm not crazy about it, but i'm not objecting.
  394. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
  395. # [18:42] * fantasai wonders what causes the unhappiness, other than the names
  396. # [18:42] <cabanier> resolution: accept the proposal: cx, cy, dx, dy, fx, fy, height, width, offset, r, rx, ry, x, x1, x2, y, y1, y2 and maybe d becomes CSS properties
  397. # [18:43] <cabanier> topic: styling placeholder
  398. # [18:43] * oyvind fx, fy, fo, fum
  399. # [18:43] <cabanier> glazou: this requires synchronisation between browser
  400. # [18:43] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I can summarize the options
  401. # [18:43] <cabanier> …1. use a pseudo name placeholder but is heavyweight
  402. # [18:44] <cabanier> …2. provide the value pseudo element and a placeholder pseudo class
  403. # [18:44] <cabanier> … 3. add a color opacity or a foreground opacity
  404. # [18:44] <stearns> should do 3 regardless
  405. # [18:44] <cabanier> … to make the text opaque without invoking a pseudo element
  406. # [18:44] <cabanier> … this makes things match SVg
  407. # [18:44] <smfr> cabanier: sylvaing
  408. # [18:45] <cabanier> sylvaing: the main problem is that all browsers do this slightly different
  409. # [18:45] <cabanier> … opaque text (???)
  410. # [18:45] * Joins: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak)
  411. # [18:45] <cabanier> … I don't think we should not pick
  412. # [18:46] <cabanier> 1. ???
  413. # [18:46] <dbaron> sylvaing: I don't think we should pick pseudo-class vs. pseudo-element entirely over one particular default styling (opacity).
  414. # [18:46] <cabanier> 2. I don't think opacity is a massive problem but
  415. # [18:46] <cabanier> … Tab does have a point where sometimes where you want to set the alpa
  416. # [18:46] <cabanier> … alpha of the foreground text
  417. # [18:47] <cabanier> … there may be a case to make this a pseudo element
  418. # [18:48] <cabanier> TabAtkins: the rule is that you set the foreground and background color
  419. # [18:48] <cabanier> … and then you have to set a different color
  420. # [18:48] <cabanier> … unless they see a report that it's not working on the website
  421. # [18:48] <cabanier> sylvaing: they will see that right away
  422. # [18:48] <cabanier> glazou: yes, Sylvain is right
  423. # [18:49] <cabanier> sylvaing: let's not assume that opacity is the only default
  424. # [18:49] * Joins: arno (~arnog@public.cloak)
  425. # [18:49] <cabanier> … I don't want to pick the design that there is a weirdness with opacity in text
  426. # [18:49] <cabanier> … this is the wrong way to approach the problem
  427. # [18:50] <cabanier> dbaron: we have hit problems in the past because people don't test with all browsers
  428. # [18:50] <cabanier> … .the equilibrium is ending up in the same element
  429. # [18:50] <fantasai> s/same /pseudo-/
  430. # [18:50] <cabanier> … people might develop in one browser and then not test as thoroughly in other browsers
  431. # [18:51] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  432. # [18:51] <cabanier> sylvaing: yes, we have a bad situation. but we shouldn't simply do what chrome does
  433. # [18:51] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  434. # [18:51] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I don't argue for Chrome behavior because it's silly
  435. # [18:52] <cabanier> … the point is what should we do for placeholder styling?
  436. # [18:52] <cabanier> … we haven't done anything in years
  437. # [18:52] <dbaron> where's tab's list of 3 options?
  438. # [18:52] <cabanier> sylvaing: I want to hear arguments for your points.
  439. # [18:52] <glazou> dbaron, above in IRC
  440. # [18:53] <dbaron> is it a url or minuted text?
  441. # [18:53] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I'm arguing for opacity
  442. # [18:53] <dbaron> oh, I see
  443. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm arguing for making it possible to use
  444. # [18:53] <tantek> interesting that we're debating this again
  445. # [18:53] <cabanier> glazou: we should not add new properties
  446. # [18:53] <cabanier> … specific for an element
  447. # [18:53] <fantasai> [opacity on the input element would make the entire thing transparent]
  448. # [18:54] <cabanier> dbaron: we should use fill-opacity then like SVG
  449. # [18:54] * antonp thinks fill = background (intuitively)
  450. # [18:54] <cabanier> TabAtkins: fill maps to backgrounds and stroke to borders
  451. # [18:54] <dbaron> Tab: but fill maps to background and stroke maps to border
  452. # [18:54] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  453. # [18:54] <stearns> text opacity is useful generally, not just for this particular case
  454. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> +1 for text opacity, whatever the name
  455. # [18:54] <cabanier> fantasai: not for text though
  456. # [18:55] <cabanier> … people want to do gradient fills on text or stroked text
  457. # [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: adopt the SVG fill-opacity etc. properties, but say in CSS they apply only to text
  458. # [18:55] <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
  459. # [18:55] <cabanier> TabAtkins: ah. this sounds really useful
  460. # [18:55] <cabanier> krit: in webkit we have 2 propoerties
  461. # [18:55] <cabanier> glazou: can you summarize the 3 options?
  462. # [18:55] <cabanier> … so we can discuss during F2F
  463. # [18:56] <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
  464. # [18:56] <cabanier> ???
  465. # [18:56] <Rossen> ??? = Arron
  466. # [18:56] * glazou want to reserve the last minutes for item 5 on agenda, allowing only 3 more minutes to this topic
  467. # [18:56] <fantasai> Arron: Back to original question of pseudo-element/pseudo-class
  468. # [18:56] <cabanier> TabAtkins: (???) the correct answer to go with the pseudo class if we can address the text issue
  469. # [18:57] <dbaron> Tab: If we had a general solution for text opacity, I'd be in favor of pseudo-class, since in general it's more powerful.
  470. # [19:00] <SimonSapin> select the placeholder vs. select inputs that are showing their placeholder
  471. # [19:00] <fantasai> sylvaing: We seem to agree that pseudo-class is generally better, but Tab is arguing that the default styling of placeholder should be to make the text semi-transparent; and you can't do that currently without a pseudo-element to take 'opacity'
  472. # [19:00] * antonp agrees with Arron that architecturally the placeholder is a pseudo-element
  473. # [19:00] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  474. # [19:00] <fantasai> Arron: placeholder text is a pseudo-element by the definition
  475. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: There's an obvious logical explanation for it to be either
  476. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: If it's a pseudo-class, it's a selector that applies to the whole input
  477. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: If it's a pseudo-element, then we're styling a thing inside the input
  478. # [19:00] <cabanier> .. these are 2 different things
  479. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: The pseudo-class represents the entire element when it has a placeholder.
  480. # [19:00] * krit such a pseudo discussion :P
  481. # [19:00] <cabanier> … the pseudo class represent the entire input element
  482. # [19:00] <fantasai> i.e. input:placeholder -- subclassing inputs that are displaying placeholder text
  483. # [19:00] <fantasai> vs. input::placeholder -- pseudo-element containing placeholder text that fits inside the input element
  484. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: If it's a pseudo-class, you can put a red border on any input element that is showing a placeholder. And it would go around the input element.
  485. # [19:00] <cabanier> glazou: we only have a couple of minutes
  486. # [19:00] <fantasai> [if it was a pseudo-class, the border would go around the placeholder text only]
  487. # [19:00] <cabanier> … tab, can you summarize and give pros and cons
  488. # [19:00] <cabanier> TabAtkins: yes
  489. # [19:01] <tantek> FWIW - there's been so much discussion on this (placeholder pseudo class vs. element etc.) on www-style, in bugzilla (on Mozilla at least), that I think it might be necessary to discuss this at the F2F when we can point at things we are all looking at.
  490. # [19:01] <cabanier> glazou: let's discuss during the F2F
  491. # [19:01] <cabanier> … and let's add it to the wiki
  492. # [19:01] <tantek> thanks glazou
  493. # [19:01] <tantek> glazou++
  494. # [19:01] <cabanier> dbaron: can we talk about it next week?
  495. # [19:01] <cabanier> glazou: I won't be on the talk next weeke and would like to participate
  496. # [19:01] <tantek> in the mean time, please dig up the www-style links to previous discussions (since 2010 I think)
  497. # [19:02] <cabanier> dbaron: we should make the change in FF 19 though so time is essential
  498. # [19:02] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0268.html
  499. # [19:02] <cabanier> topic: css3-box WD
  500. # [19:02] <cabanier> glazou: can we update the WD?
  501. # [19:02] <cabanier> ???: it's good to show people that it's being worked on
  502. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> s/???/antonp/
  503. # [19:02] <cabanier> … there's a lot of things that will change
  504. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dino
  505. # [19:03] <cabanier> … not how CSS is doing things
  506. # [19:03] * Ms2ger thinks that's long overdue
  507. # [19:03] * Quits: dino (~dino@public.cloak) (dino)
  508. # [19:03] <cabanier> dbaron: i think there's stuff in the box editor's draft and we need to be extra careful
  509. # [19:03] * glazou TabAtkins please also mention the spec that should contain the placeholder solution
  510. # [19:04] <cabanier> glazou: are there any objections to republish
  511. # [19:04] <dbaron> s/draft/draft that is also in other working drafts, where the other working draft is more up-to-date on our current thinking,/
  512. # [19:04] <fantasai> s/draft/draft that are covered better and more up-to-date with our current thinking in other drafts/
  513. # [19:04] <cabanier> dbaron: I would like to look at it this week.
  514. # [19:04] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  515. # [19:04] <cabanier> SteveZ: what is the different treatment?
  516. # [19:04] * TabAtkins glazou, will do.
  517. # [19:04] <glazou> thanks TabAtkins
  518. # [19:05] <cabanier> antonp: the way ???? are defined. defintion of containing block
  519. # [19:05] <cabanier> … what we're trying to do is reqrite things so it's easier for spec to refer to
  520. # [19:05] <cabanier> …. it's editorial but quite complex
  521. # [19:05] <cabanier> SteveZ: indicating why the treatment changes would help
  522. # [19:05] * Quits: arno (~arnog@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  523. # [19:06] <cabanier> … maybe a paragraph in the status saying that it's a working in progress/heartbeat
  524. # [19:06] * Joins: arno (~arnog@public.cloak)
  525. # [19:06] <fantasai> We should definitely have a warning that people should still continue to refer to CSS2.1 for implementation
  526. # [19:06] <cabanier> glazou: let's revisit next week
  527. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glenn
  528. # [19:06] <cabanier> … please read the module
  529. # [19:06] <cabanier> .. I will be out next week
  530. # [19:06] <Zakim> -hober
  531. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  532. # [19:06] <Zakim> -rhauck
  533. # [19:06] <Zakim> -smfr
  534. # [19:06] <Zakim> -antonp
  535. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  536. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Stearns
  537. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  538. # [19:06] <Zakim> -darktears
  539. # [19:06] <Zakim> -krit
  540. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  541. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  542. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
  543. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Tab_Atkins
  544. # [19:06] <Zakim> -plinss
  545. # [19:06] * Quits: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("")
  546. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  547. # [19:06] * fantasai wishes we did viewport units today
  548. # [19:07] <Zakim> -dbaron
  549. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  550. # [19:07] <cabanier> * fantasai: do you send out the minutes? *
  551. # [19:07] * Parts: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (florian)
  552. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  553. # [19:07] <Zakim> -cabanier
  554. # [19:07] * Quits: arno (~arnog@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  555. # [19:07] <krit> TabAtkins: fantasai: What is the status of gradients on Text?
  556. # [19:08] <krit> TabAtkins: fantasai: just heard you mention it
  557. # [19:08] * Joins: arno (~arnog@public.cloak)
  558. # [19:08] <fantasai> Proposal I made was to use the SVG fill/stroke properties on text
  559. # [19:09] <krit> fantasai: sounds great! means you can apply patterns and gradients from SVG?
  560. # [19:09] <krit> fantasai: (btw, SVG WG decided to accept CSS Images on these properties as well)
  561. # [19:10] <krit> fantasai: do you have a link to this proposal?
  562. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> krit: Yeah, their values would be "<color> | <image>".
  563. # [19:10] <fantasai> It was just mentioned in passing on the call :)
  564. # [19:10] <fantasai> It's been on my mind for years
  565. # [19:10] <fantasai> not written down anywhere though
  566. # [19:10] <krit> fantasai: fantastic. I was actually about to write a mail about it yesterday
  567. # [19:11] <fantasai> The one tricky bit is the interaction of 'color' and 'fill'
  568. # [19:11] <krit> fantasai: it would be great to push that forward
  569. # [19:11] <fantasai> and making sure authors provide an appropriate 'color'
  570. # [19:11] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  571. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the interaction is interesting, since the initial value for 'fill' is "black".
  572. # [19:12] <krit> fantasai: need to check how we do it in webkit, Tab mentioned that we have special properties there: text-stroke and tex-fill
  573. # [19:12] <fantasai> yeah
  574. # [19:12] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft.a], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  575. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  576. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were jdaggett, krit, rhauck, glazou, darktears, +47.23.69.aaaa, leif, Stearns, plinss, +1.417.671.aabb, glenn, florian, SylvaIng, +44.180.383.aacc, hober, antonp,
  577. # [19:12] <Zakim> ... cabanier, fantasai, SimonSapin1, smfr, SteveZ, dbaron, [IPcaller], dino, Tab_Atkins, Doug_Schepers, JohnJansen, [Microsoft]
  578. # [19:12] <fantasai> I remember discussing text-fill with hyatt
  579. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> krit: I suspect our properties have "auto" as the initial value, or something like that.
  580. # [19:12] <krit> TabAtkins: hm, that would explain it
  581. # [19:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: we could have that compute to SVG's initial on SVG elements
  582. # [19:13] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  583. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that could work.
  584. # [19:14] <fantasai> dbaron, TabAtkins -- thoughts on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0313.html ?
  585. # [19:14] <dbaron> fantasai, in meeting
  586. # [19:14] <fantasai> kk
  587. # [19:14] <krit> fantasai: Do you want to send the proposal?
  588. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's my email, so you know my thoughts already. ^_^
  589. # [19:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: oh, hey, wrong link then
  590. # [19:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: but yeah :)
  591. # [19:15] <krit> fantasai: I can summarize the problem as well if you should not have the time.
  592. # [19:15] * fantasai needs to track down Rossen
  593. # [19:16] <fantasai> krit: Go for it. I'm not super-familiar with SVG properties anyway
  594. # [19:16] * fantasai just wants to reduce duplication
  595. # [19:16] <krit> fantasai: k
  596. # [19:16] <fantasai> leif: thoughts on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0312.html ?
  597. # [19:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai, TabAtkins: could the initial value for fill be currentColor?
  598. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Unfortunately, that's now observably different, since currentColor sticks around in computed values. ^_^
  599. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> But we can have 'auto' compute to either "black" or the 'color' property's value.
  600. # [19:21] <SimonSapin> bye
  601. # [19:21] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  602. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You think we'd specify them in text-decor?
  603. # [19:24] <fantasai> Seems like the logical place
  604. # [19:24] <fantasai> it's in LC right now, though...
  605. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> So, where does this "all" property come from?
  606. # [19:24] <fantasai> Probably we can draft it up and then figure out where to put it
  607. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Excellent, that means we can start a level 4 as soon as it hits CR. ^_^
  608. # [19:24] <fantasai> Ms2ger: css3-cascade
  609. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> Ah
  610. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Or were you asking for the justification for it?
  611. # [19:25] <fantasai> Well, originally from transitions, I think
  612. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we took the name from the special 'all' value that Transitions uses in transition-property, which is now a real shorthand value rather than a special one. ^_^
  613. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> I saw an email come in with no pointer to anything
  614. # [19:27] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  615. # [19:29] * Quits: mollyholzschlag (~mholzsch@public.cloak) ("adios, farewell, 'til we meet again . . .")
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  617. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> krit: I'm sending emails to SVG. That ok?
  618. # [19:40] <shepazu> good job, krit
  619. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> Also, I always forget, are we supposed to send them to public-svg-wg or www-svg?
  620. # [19:41] <shepazu> www-svg
  621. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  622. # [19:41] <krit> TabAtkins: sure thing!
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  626. # [20:04] <leif> fantasai: gotta run now, but I can have a look at it tomorrow
  627. # [20:08] <fantasai> leif: cool, thanks
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The end :)