/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-01-30 / end

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  118. # [16:33] <guy> leaverou: never mind my linked in message. I realised seconds later why you were doing it.
  119. # [16:33] <guy> linkedin*
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  123. # [16:57] <guy> leaverou: https://github.com/LeaVerou/prefixfree/pull/139
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  129. # [17:49] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/30-css-irc
  130. # [17:49] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  131. # [17:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  132. # [17:49] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  133. # [17:49] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
  134. # [17:50] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  135. # [17:52] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  136. # [17:52] <Zakim> +??P25
  137. # [17:52] * darktears_ is now known as darktears
  138. # [17:52] <darktears> Zakim, ??P25 is me
  139. # [17:52] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
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  142. # [17:54] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  143. # [17:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
  144. # [17:54] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  145. # [17:54] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
  146. # [17:55] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  147. # [17:55] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  148. # [17:55] * arronei Partial regrets, only on IRC today. Not able to call in.
  149. # [17:55] <Zakim> +hober
  150. # [17:55] * nvdbleek Hi I'm Nick Van den Bleeken from Inventive Designers
  151. # [17:55] <Zakim> +krit
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  154. # [17:56] <stearns> zakim, krit has me
  155. # [17:56] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
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  157. # [17:56] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  158. # [17:57] <Zakim> +BradK
  159. # [17:57] <rhauck> zakim, krit has me
  160. # [17:57] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
  161. # [17:57] <Zakim> +leif
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  163. # [17:57] <Zakim> +smfr
  164. # [17:58] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  166. # [17:58] <BradK> Welcome, nick
  167. # [17:59] <Zakim> +cabanier
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  169. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
  170. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dbaron
  171. # [18:01] * antonp can't connect :-/ Redialling...
  172. # [18:02] * nvdbleek Thanks
  173. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
  174. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone
  175. # [18:02] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', plinss
  176. # [18:02] * nvdbleek Don't think I can scribe, don't know the voices
  177. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  178. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, plinss, nvdbleek, hober, krit, SylvaIng, BradK, leif, smfr, fantasai, cabanier, Bert, dbaron, SimonSapin1
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> krit has rhauck
  180. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> still on Zakim with the wrong nick…
  181. # [18:03] <Bert> Scribe: Bert
  182. # [18:03] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013?&#agenda
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  185. # [18:03] <Bert> Topic: Welcome Nick
  186. # [18:04] <Bert> Nick wil not be at the ftf.
  187. # [18:04] <Bert> Topic: Agenda ftf
  188. # [18:04] <Bert> plinss: Please add topics to wiki
  189. # [18:04] <Bert> ... Any questions, issues about ftf?
  190. # [18:04] * fantasai would like to make sure we get to viewport units, bc dbaron said they were time-sensitive
  191. # [18:04] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0557.html'
  192. # [18:05] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  193. # [18:05] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
  194. # [18:05] <Bert> Topic: viewport units
  195. # [18:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0312.html
  196. # [18:05] <Bert> fantasai: Seems a growing consensus on www-style.
  197. # [18:06] <Bert> ... Generally you try to fit things in view;oort and don't want scroll.
  198. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P89
  199. # [18:06] <Bert> ... If you *do* want to scroll, you can do 'overflow: scroll' to have scrollbars.
  200. # [18:07] <Bert> ... Alternative is 'overflow: hidden' to be sure to not have scriollbars, but that has side effect of clipping in case things *do* overflow.
  201. # [18:07] <Bert> ??: I agree with that
  202. # [18:07] <Bert> plinss: Objections?
  203. # [18:07] <sylvaing> s/??/Rossen
  204. # [18:07] <fantasai> rossen agrees too
  205. # [18:07] <fantasai> (there was someone else)
  206. # [18:08] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~TabAtkins@public.cloak)
  207. # [18:08] <Bert> RESOLVED: viewport units in case of 'overflow:auto' are sized as if scrollbar is *not* present (even if they are)
  208. # [18:09] <Bert> dbaron: Worth saying [???]
  209. # [18:09] <Zakim> -hober
  210. # [18:09] <Bert> SimonSapin:
  211. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aabb
  212. # [18:09] <dbaron> s/[???]/something about overflow:scroll/
  213. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aabb is me
  214. # [18:09] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  215. # [18:09] <Bert> plinss: You mean horizontal scrolling?
  216. # [18:10] <Bert> SimonSapin: with 100vh, will get overflow?
  217. # [18:10] <Bert> rossen: with 100.1vh you will have scrollbars.
  218. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> 100vw + lots of content vertically to trigger a vertical scrollbar
  219. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> => horizontal scroll by the width of the scrollbar?
  220. # [18:11] <Bert> plinss: Any objection now, after this explanation?
  221. # [18:12] <fantasai> In case of 'overflow: scroll', scrollbars are accounted for in calculating viewport units
  222. # [18:12] <Bert> plinss: When there is overflow:auto the units will be as if there is no scrollbar, but with 'overflow: scroll' the units *will* deduct the scrollbar.
  223. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> ok, `overflow-y: scroll` would take care of my use case
  224. # [18:12] <fantasai> (so that 100vh/100vw will not cause scrolling, just disabled scrollbars )
  225. # [18:12] <Bert> Topic: Box Module
  226. # [18:12] * antonp still cannot connect on the phone. Will follow on IRC
  227. # [18:12] <sylvaing> could we have width:100% and width:100vw be different? Does that matter?
  228. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  229. # [18:12] <Bert> plinss: Question was if we want to update the WD.
  230. # [18:12] <glenn> +Present glenn (IRC only)
  231. # [18:12] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
  232. # [18:12] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  233. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> sylvaing: I think it’s possible with `overflow: auto`
  234. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> on the root
  235. # [18:13] <Bert> bert: what was the discussion last week?
  236. # [18:13] <Bert> plinss: No resolution last week.
  237. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> s/sylvaing:/sylvaing,/
  238. # [18:13] <antonp> +Present antonp (IRC only)
  239. # [18:13] <sylvaing> SimonSapin, right. Just stating it looks like it could happen. I'm not sure it's a problem though.
  240. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: Would like a new WD soon, because current is very old. Most issues listed in draft.
  241. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: On the other hand the order of sections in the draft is in flux. It's chaos atm
  242. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: Would like a few weeks for the editors to make sure that it is at least readable, I'm not sure that's the case at the moment
  243. # [18:15] <fantasai> Bert: Started to look if all the issues were there. E.g. noticed some were mentioned 3 times
  244. # [18:15] <fantasai> Bert: With a few days of work, could me much nicer draft than now. Not opposed to publishing now, but would be more readable with some time to clean it up a bit.
  245. # [18:15] <Bert> bert: /me thanks fantasai
  246. # [18:15] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@public.cloak)
  247. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we should defer to the editor (Bert) and let him decide when it's ready to republish
  248. # [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: Maybe one week after F2F?
  249. # [18:17] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  250. # [18:17] <cabanier> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.html#cssbackgroundsyntax
  251. # [18:17] <Bert> Topic: Compositing bg images
  252. # [18:18] <Bert> cabanier: Q is if this is usful feature to pursue.
  253. # [18:18] <Bert> ... It really belongs in BG & Borders.
  254. # [18:18] <Bert> ... It is kind of hard in the Compositing spec.
  255. # [18:18] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Good idea, the visual effect. I can't say what the imple cost is.
  256. # [18:19] <Bert> ... Putting it in background4 spec may may make spec.
  257. # [18:19] <Bert> cabanier: Yes, then can put it in shorthand.
  258. # [18:19] <Bert> TabAtkins_: let it depend on which spec is faster.
  259. # [18:19] <Bert> cabanier: Pretty simple in term sof implem cost.
  260. # [18:20] <Bert> plinss: Only multiple background images of a single elt?
  261. # [18:20] <Bert> cabanier: Yes.
  262. # [18:20] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Cool.
  263. # [18:21] <Bert> plinss: But if we ever want compos of bg with other elt, syntax shoul dnot preclude that.
  264. # [18:21] <Bert> cabanier: Yes, we can add something. or another property later.
  265. # [18:21] <Bert> dbaron: Curious about use cases.
  266. # [18:21] <Bert> TabAtkins_: The use case sof compos and blen in general.
  267. # [18:22] <Bert> ... I mght want to animate bgs together.
  268. # [18:22] <Bert> cabanier: Some clouds, text that inherits what's behind it...
  269. # [18:22] <Bert> ... designers can tell you much better what they want with it.
  270. # [18:22] <Bert> plinss: Objections?
  271. # [18:23] <Bert> RESOLVED: keep it in the spec for now.
  272. # [18:23] <Bert> Topic: overlay value for overflow
  273. # [18:24] <Zakim> +Tantek
  274. # [18:24] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Don't know eher eit came from, but it is in the spec.
  275. # [18:24] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  276. # [18:24] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  277. # [18:24] <Bert> smfr: A feature that is no longer part of our browser.
  278. # [18:24] <Bert> ... Should have been prefixed. And we don't want to standardize it.
  279. # [18:24] <Bert> TabAtkins_: What arte you opposed to?
  280. # [18:24] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  281. # [18:24] <Bert> smfr: It is a user control, not an author control.
  282. # [18:25] * fantasai agrees with smfr
  283. # [18:25] <Bert> dbaron: Agree with smfr
  284. # [18:25] <tantek> agree with Simon as well
  285. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> Sorry, got bumped.
  286. # [18:25] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  287. # [18:26] <Zakim> -cabanier
  288. # [18:26] <Bert> sylvaing: We have it in IE (?)
  289. # [18:26] <cabanier> *sorry, I need to go*
  290. # [18:26] <sylvaing> we expose auto-hide overlay scrollbars in IE10/Win8 as an overflow-style
  291. # [18:26] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Avoid jumping text
  292. # [18:27] <Bert> dbaron: And what if user has never seen an ovverlay scrollbar before?
  293. # [18:27] <Bert> TabAtkins_: It looks exactly like a normal scrollbar.
  294. # [18:27] <sylvaing> to the extent authors can MQ touch/mouse it may be interesting for them to pick a default as well
  295. # [18:27] <tantek> not sure designing this feature in a telcon make sense?
  296. # [18:27] <Bert> rossen: Only present in case of interaction. User will understand when he sees it.
  297. # [18:28] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Chromw draw a normal scrollbar, it just overlaps. It looks weird anyway.
  298. # [18:28] * sylvaing doesn't have a strong opinion except: this shouldn't be a value of the overflow property
  299. # [18:28] <Bert> ... But another way would be perfect fine as well.
  300. # [18:28] <Bert> rossen: If the platform decides to do it, then that's what you get.
  301. # [18:29] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Not a difficult problem for design.
  302. # [18:29] <Bert> sylvaing: Do people do these scrollbars, e.g., with jQuery?
  303. # [18:29] <Bert> TabAtkins_: I don't know.
  304. # [18:29] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  305. # [18:30] <Bert> smfr: We don't allow to style scrollbars, they look like traditonal scrollbars on Mac.
  306. # [18:30] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  307. # [18:30] <Bert> smfr: If the user hovers near the edge, the scrollbar will appear. Authors should be able to know if such scrollbars are used, maybe a Media Query.
  308. # [18:31] <Bert> fantasai: 'overflow: scroll' makes sure there is a scrollbar.
  309. # [18:31] <Bert> TabAtkins_: People don;'t liek scrollbars, don 't use ''scroll'
  310. # [18:31] <Bert> fantasai: Overlay scrollbars are great. All platforms should just use them.
  311. # [18:32] <tantek> if scrollbars are ugly, why not just use overflow:hidden?
  312. # [18:32] <smfr> tantek: overflow:hidden prevents user scrolling
  313. # [18:32] <Bert> glenn: Maybe spec scrollbars that somehow don't obscure content.
  314. # [18:32] <tantek> smfr - perhaps that's the answer then - overflow:hidden-scroll
  315. # [18:32] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Every platform that has overlay scrollbars has done something like that.
  316. # [18:32] <tantek> hide the scrollbars, but allow scrolling
  317. # [18:33] <tantek> (native apps seem to do this)
  318. # [18:33] <fantasai> wrt smfr's mq idea, mq should be for how wide the scrollbars are
  319. # [18:33] <Bert> glenn: But overlay scrollbars are hidden. Maybe use a partial transparency instead.
  320. # [18:33] <tantek> (which should be sufficient a use case to justify overflow:hidden-scroll )
  321. # [18:33] <sylvaing> tantek, this is what iOS and Win8 do. no scrollbar until you start moving around
  322. # [18:33] <tantek> (they don't even bother to show overlay scrollbars, they just show no scrolling UI, but allow touch scrolling)
  323. # [18:33] <fantasai> tantek, not sure what you mean. I don't have a scroll wheel, how exactly am I supposed to scroll a window without scrollbars?
  324. # [18:33] <Bert> TabAtkins_: I get your point.
  325. # [18:34] <tantek> sylvaing - I'm talking about native apps (e.g. iOS) which don't even show a scrollbars.
  326. # [18:34] <Bert> smfr: [something about google site]
  327. # [18:34] <tantek> fantasai - touch, page up page down, etc. native apps do this today on mobile.
  328. # [18:34] * darktears smfr +1 these scrollbars are horrible
  329. # [18:34] <Bert> plinss: General pricniple is also to not let authors change the fundamental UI of a platform.
  330. # [18:35] <Bert> Topic: syntax issues
  331. # [18:35] <fantasai> tantek, that's not at all obvious, especially when it's a scroll view inside the page rather than the main viewport
  332. # [18:35] <Bert> SimonSapin: q what is a ASCII character.
  333. # [18:35] <tantek> fantasai - it doesn't work in all cases, just like not all color/bg combinations work in all cases
  334. # [18:35] * sylvaing anything that involves ASCII but does not involve case-sensitivity is AWESOME
  335. # [18:35] <tantek> "not at all obvious" in some cases is never an argument against a style feature - that's a strawman.
  336. # [18:35] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Yes, change it to 7F. Should not matter. Nobody uses 7F-9F
  337. # [18:36] <Bert> dbaron: is nbsp inthe range?
  338. # [18:36] <fantasai> tantek, sorry, I don't think you are making any sense
  339. # [18:36] <tantek> … just as color/bg combinations do NOT work in all cases
  340. # [18:36] <Bert> TabAtkins_: No, that is the 1st character out of that range.
  341. # [18:36] * fantasai is not going to argue this point with you anymore
  342. # [18:36] <dbaron> dbaron: I'm ok with it; changing Firefox is relatively straightforward.
  343. # [18:36] <oyvind> nbsp is a0
  344. # [18:36] <tantek> fantasai - just because you can come up with a confusing example (strawman) doesn't negate the utility of a feature.
  345. # [18:36] <BradK> Bert, I think you we're attributing my comments to Glenn.
  346. # [18:37] <fantasai> BradK, how far back?
  347. # [18:37] * fantasai can fix that in the minutes
  348. # [18:37] <Bert> bert: is this an errata for 2.1?
  349. # [18:37] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Yes, should be.
  350. # [18:37] <glenn> s/glenn: But/BradK/
  351. # [18:37] <BradK> In the overlay scroll bar stuff
  352. # [18:37] <Bert> RESOLVED: non-ascii starts at 0x80
  353. # [18:37] <glenn> s/glenn: Maybe/BradK: Maybe/
  354. # [18:38] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  355. # [18:38] <Bert> ACTION bert: add errata to 2.1 about non-ascii from 0x80
  356. # [18:38] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  357. # [18:38] * RRSAgent records action 1
  358. # [18:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-529 - Add errata to 2.1 about non-ascii from 0x80 [on Bert Bos - due 2013-02-06].
  359. # [18:38] <glenn> s/BradK overlay/BradK: But overlay/
  360. # [18:38] <glenn> rrsagent, pointer
  361. # [18:38] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/01/30-css-irc#T17-42-41
  362. # [18:38] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Some special characters are now allowed instead of undefined. So may have effect on parsers.
  363. # [18:38] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  364. # [18:38] <Zakim> -??P89
  365. # [18:39] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  366. # [18:39] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  367. # [18:39] <Bert> ... But another issue: 2.1 grammar allowed empty selector.
  368. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: you actually use an "empty selector" in "parse a declaration block"
  369. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> though not that selector is not parsed
  370. # [18:39] <Bert> ... I disallowed that in 3.
  371. # [18:40] <Bert> bert: What does "not allow it mean"?
  372. # [18:40] <Bert> TabAtkins_: It's either a syntax or a semantics error.
  373. # [18:40] * sylvaing sounds like something we can change at LC...
  374. # [18:40] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  375. # [18:40] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Should not affect any use in browsers.
  376. # [18:41] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak)
  377. # [18:41] <Bert> bert: then I say do it as it was: allow in the syntax, it just doesn't match anything.
  378. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> 2.1 allows it
  379. # [18:41] <Bert> plinss: Seems reasonable to not disallow it.
  380. # [18:41] <Bert> ... Maybe we want it in the OM and add a selector by script later.
  381. # [18:41] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Potentially.
  382. # [18:41] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Isn't selector readonly?
  383. # [18:42] <Bert> SimonSapin: Empty selector prob. doens't show up in the OM.
  384. # [18:42] <Bert> plinss: Just leave it open for the future.
  385. # [18:42] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Syntax error resynchs at closing '}'
  386. # [18:43] <oyvind> selectorText is read/write
  387. # [18:43] <Bert> ... (Well, tiny thing. Doesn't matter.)
  388. # [18:43] <Bert> plinss: Othe rgrammar issues?
  389. # [18:43] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Nothing that needs WG attention right now.
  390. # [18:43] <Bert> plinss: Other topics?
  391. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/95
  392. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0562.html
  393. # [18:44] <Bert> SimonSapin: I'd like a feature in @page: multiple selectors with a comma.
  394. # [18:44] <Zakim> +Lea
  395. # [18:44] <Bert> TabAtkins_: That seems like it was an oversight... See no reason to disallow.
  396. # [18:44] <Bert> plinss: Objections?
  397. # [18:45] <Bert> RESOLVED: allow commas in @page rules.
  398. # [18:45] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  399. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> in page selectors
  400. # [18:45] <Bert> s/rules/selectors/
  401. # [18:45] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  402. # [18:45] <Zakim> -krit
  403. # [18:45] <Zakim> -BradK
  404. # [18:45] <Bert> ADJOURNED
  405. # [18:45] <Zakim> -smfr
  406. # [18:45] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  407. # [18:45] <Zakim> -hober
  408. # [18:45] <Zakim> -Rossen
  409. # [18:45] <Zakim> -Tantek
  410. # [18:45] <Zakim> -dbaron
  411. # [18:45] <Zakim> -leif
  412. # [18:45] <Zakim> -darktears
  413. # [18:45] <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
  414. # [18:45] <Zakim> -Lea
  415. # [18:45] <Zakim> -plinss
  416. # [18:45] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  417. # [18:45] <Zakim> -fantasai
  418. # [18:45] <Zakim> -Bert
  419. # [18:45] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
  420. # [18:45] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  421. # [18:45] <Zakim> Attendees were darktears, nvdbleek, +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, hober, stearns, SylvaIng, BradK, rhauck, leif, smfr, fantasai, cabanier, Bert, dbaron, SimonSapin1, +1.832.797.aabb,
  422. # [18:45] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins_, Tantek, Rossen, Lea
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  476. # Session Close: Thu Jan 31 00:00:00 2013

The end :)