/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-02-07 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 07 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #css
3. # [00:00] <dbaron> jdaggett: I'm still unclear about the use case.
4. # [00:00] <dbaron> glenn: Inside of publishing companies there are probably style rules for how to deal with multi-scripts distribution.
5. # [00:00] <dbaron> glenn: I think you're probably not going to find it outside of that context.
6. # [00:00] <dbaron> glenn: so anything that's definitive in some context is better than the current state of affairs which is pretty random
7. # [00:01] <dbaron> glenn: if we don't have script prioiritaziotn specified propertly, we could improve
8. # [00:01] <dbaron> jdaggett: I think we should specify in terms of restrictions, "prioritize X less", "prioritize Y last"... we could cover all use cases that way, and leaves you not having to define broad script categories.
9. # [00:01] <dbaron> -glenn
10. # [00:01] <dbaron> Koji: I still don't understand what you mean by use cases
11. # [00:01] <dbaron> Koji: use case for inter-ideograph is japan, china, etc.
12. # [00:02] <dbaron> jdaggett: That's my entire problem with this property. If it's for CJK, why can't you just go based on the language.
13. # [00:02] <dbaron> Koji: that's not what browsers do already for justification
14. # [00:02] <dbaron> jdaggett: but it could easily be defined that way
15. # [00:02] <dbaron> jdaggett: and defining it that way gives UAs more leeway to figure out what the right things, and we don't have to put a lot of effort into detailing script categories
16. # [00:02] <dbaron> jdaggett: you're talking about pushing this to last call; it's not clear if it's the right direction
17. # [00:03] <dbaron> Koji: It's implemented for WebKit and IE; everyone's using it
18. # [00:03] <dbaron> jdaggett: part of the problem is that here, we don't know if implementations match
19. # [00:03] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Ap%20{%20width%3A%202.9em%3B%20border%3A%20solid%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cp%20lang%3Dzh%3E%0A%E8%BF%99%E6%98%AF%E4%B8%80%E4%BA%9B%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%AD%90%E3%80%82
20. # [00:03] <dbaron> jdaggett: MS people haven't documented their impl
21. # [00:03] <dbaron> stevez: I'm not sure what you're copmlainig about
22. # [00:03] <fantasai> Testcase above shows that implementations don't use lang values to turn on proper justification....
23. # [00:04] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
24. # [00:04] <dbaron> jdaggett: This spec is defining script categories that are not defined elsewher; we're coming up with our own set of categories.
25. # [00:04] <dbaron> stevez: There's no external definition of script categories that we can point to
26. # [00:04] <dbaron> stevez: is that part of your point?
27. # [00:04] <dbaron> jdaggett: I'd put it as that we're making groupings that are unique to this spec
28. # [00:04] <dbaron> q+
29. # [00:04] <dbaron> stevez: there are groupings that are in common use today
30. # [00:04] <dbaron> stevez: there are different justification rules in common use today for groups of scripts
31. # [00:05] * fantasai wonders if we can avoid a lot of this by removing inter-cluster
32. # [00:05] <dbaron> jdaggett: another way to think of them is not breaking them down by script but saynig "these scripts share this behavior", and defining property values based on these behaviors, not saying property values say "value means X for this set of scripts and Y for this set"
33. # [00:05] * fantasai is confused what the difference is between the two things above stated
34. # [00:06] <dbaron> stevez: other problem with this outline, I think you're saying.... too many combinations of script X in Y to come up with a reasonable set of finite properties to come up with ...
35. # [00:07] <dbaron> s/come up with .../adequately control every combination/
36. # [00:07] <dbaron> stevez: It might be better to be able to, with a script pseudo-elemnent, to label how a fragment of text is to behave in justification
37. # [00:07] <dbaron> stevez: that doesn't get me into the combination thing; the combinations come about by simultaneously trying to apply the set of pieces
38. # [00:08] <dbaron> fantasai: I think that's overkill for 99.99% of the population.
39. # [00:08] <dbaron> stevez: I think the default rules would work for 99% of the population.
40. # [00:08] <dbaron> stevez: e.g., For latin, the rules are word-spacing, then letter-spacing; for Japanese, normally no spacing at all so need a value to say space the letters; for Thai and most of S Asian I would use cluster spcaing
41. # [00:09] <dbaron> jdaggett: is theer a tradition of justification
42. # [00:09] <dbaron> fantasai: for thai and many indian, yes
43. # [00:09] <dbaron> [details]
44. # [00:09] <dbaron> jdaggett: if I look at Thai as an example
45. # [00:10] <fantasai> dbaron: Koji was saying that browsers don't implement lang-dependent justification rules today
46. # [00:10] <fantasai> dbaron: Just because they don't do it today, doesn't mean the solution is that authors should specify it, if lang-dependent rules would be sufficient.
47. # [00:10] <fantasai> dbaron: If we can do things with same amount of code, but no new properties, then that's better.
48. # [00:10] <dbaron> Koji: I think what we came down... WG wanted not to do language-dependent .. introduce justification-language: japan
49. # [00:11] <dbaron> jdaggett: nobody wants justification: japan. But browsers already have some line-breaking behavior based on language; it makes equal sense to do the same for justification.
50. # [00:11] <dbaron> jdaggett: ... and what I don't quite get... if a Japanese author says text-justify on a piece of text... are there multiple styles they'd actually use?
51. # [00:11] <dbaron> various: yes
52. # [00:12] <dbaron> jdaggett: then we need values... but do these values make sense to the author? Do the values describe the different styles?
53. # [00:12] <dbaron> Koji: if you want a space between characters, use inter-ideograph... people understand that
54. # [00:12] <dbaron> fantasai: 2 typical styles in japanese: compress around extra spaces around punct; otherwise expand certain things, but don't expand between Latin
55. # [00:13] <dbaron> fantasai: ... or just space everywhere (text-justify: distribute) -- less common, but definitely used.
56. # [00:13] <dbaron> jdaggett: I can see the use case for text-justify: distribute.
57. # [00:13] <dbaron> jdaggett: seems like what you want are ways to say "allow this" or "enable that"
58. # [00:13] <dbaron> jdaggett: then it's very clear that for this set of codepoints I'm allowed to expand the box, but at a lower priority
59. # [00:13] <dbaron> jdaggett: that way you're creating property values that make sense to what the author wants to do
60. # [00:13] <plinss> ack dbaron
61. # [00:14] <dbaron> jdaggett: not some "this is what's best for japan"
62. # [00:14] <dbaron> Koji: then if ... tools work correctly, that changes layout
63. # [00:14] <dbaron> Koji: you're saying to make justification language-dependent
64. # [00:14] <dbaron> jdaggett: yes
65. # [00:14] <dbaron> stevez: he's saying to put in language-specific rules for justification, and only have controls where they're needed to override language-specific rules
66. # [00:15] <dbaron> jdaggett: yes
67. # [00:15] <fantasai> dbaron: If you're doing lang-specific rules for justification
68. # [00:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Could use rules specific to the language of the block
69. # [00:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Within the block, mark sections as other languages
70. # [00:15] <fantasai> dbaron: but not affect the justification choice for the block
71. # [00:15] <dbaron> stevez: so you can distinguish between japanese-in-english and english-in-japanese ,which is an important distinction since therules are different
72. # [00:16] <dbaron> jdaggett: the meta-point here is that this porperty seems like we're only doing it because IE defined it
73. # [00:16] <dbaron> jdaggett: ... and that I see this as not the right way to do this
74. # [00:16] <dbaron> stevez: slightly differently: we're doing it the way we're doing it because IE defined it. Can we step back and say what is really needed to do the controls that we need?
75. # [00:16] <dbaron> stevez: we recognize the need for a property (normal vs. distribute, maybe other cases)
76. # [00:17] <dbaron> stevez: but I think John's ocmplaint, do what IE/Word did... is that really the most reasonable way of doing this?
77. # [00:17] <dbaron> Koji: I understand your point, but that's not what we want this way
78. # [00:17] <dbaron> Koji: my belief is that layout language and content language are different
79. # [00:17] <dbaron> Koji: I do not want layout dependent on language we use
80. # [00:17] <dbaron> Koji: maybe different pseudo-element can work
81. # [00:18] <dbaron> fantasai: no way to get correct justification by having somebody write the lagorithm in CSS syntax... would just be a nightmare, e.g., with different punct characters behaving differently
82. # [00:18] <dbaron> fantasai: doing high-quality justification for a language justiufication can't be done reasonably making the user define the algorithm in CSS syntax
83. # [00:18] <dbaron> fantasai: it should be a one-line request for a type of justification
84. # [00:18] <dbaron> stevez: I sort of agree with what you're saying ... jlreq talks about jsutification and categories therein. But it largely punts on foreign language included in japanese
85. # [00:19] <dbaron> stevez: it says what happens at the boundary, but not necessarily what's inside the foreign piece
86. # [00:19] <dbaron> stevez: I think david's point that you need both a paragraph language and a specific language inside that may change things is another important piece to thta
87. # [00:19] <dbaron> stevez: ... which doesn't really get picked up in what we'retalking about
88. # [00:19] <dbaron> fantasai ;as far as the switches needed: in Japanese need regular vs distribute
89. # [00:19] <dbaron> fantasai: ... in Latin, whether letter-spacing can expand
90. # [00:20] <dbaron> fantasai: ... and in Arabic, ideally, spaces vs. cursive elongation (Kashida)
91. # [00:20] <dbaron> fantasai: ... common in newspapers
92. # [00:20] <dbaron> fantasai: Those are sets of switches that we definitely need to distinguish between
93. # [00:20] <dbaron> jdaggett: example: cursive latin in Japanese text
94. # [00:20] <dbaron> jdaggett: could be any number of styles applied there... can't be called Kashida (it's Latin)
95. # [00:21] <Bert> Scribenick: Bert
96. # [00:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: In that context, you need to say how each one of those blocks will expand
97. # [00:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: It may be that you only want to expand on word spaces
98. # [00:21] <Bert> jdaggett: In that context , you need to say how each type of block is going to expand.
99. # [00:21] <Bert> ... Maybe in the case of latin, you want to strectch the characters.
100. # [00:21] <Bert> ... not widely supported, but neither is kashida.
101. # [00:21] <Bert> ... Picking those pieces i snot encessarily a single setting.
102. # [00:22] <Bert> ... This single propertiy sets all of these.
103. # [00:22] <Bert> ... Curremtly you have kashida and interideograph.
104. # [00:22] <Bert> ... Cannot allow them together.
105. # [00:22] <Bert> fantasai: Maybe in som efuture lavel have a new value for comobination.
106. # [00:22] <Bert> ... those comb are soooo... we'll never get there.
107. # [00:23] <Bert> ... Why ever discuss this in tnext 15 years?
108. # [00:23] <Bert> jdaggett: It captures the problem that this prop is tryin to define.
109. # [00:23] <Bert> ... Opaque to the user.
110. # [00:23] <Bert> fantasai: We can make it a shorhand in the future,
111. # [00:23] <Bert> jdaggett: Becaus we are defining it this way...
112. # [00:23] <Bert> ... My alternatibe is to not define it at this level.
113. # [00:24] <Bert> ... ONly 'auto' and 'sdtsitribute' and rest in level 4
114. # [00:24] <Bert> fantasai: Anf 'none?
115. # [00:24] <Bert> ... accessibilty.
116. # [00:24] <Bert> SteveZ: What's the harm with none?
117. # [00:24] <Bert> jdaggett: text-align: left is the same
118. # [00:25] <Bert> SteveZ: Not the samewhen you mi arabix and latin.
119. # [00:25] <Bert> fantasai: Setting tetx-align also turns of centering.
120. # [00:25] <Bert> SteveZ: justification shouldn't have been in text-align.
121. # [00:26] <Bert> fantasai: auto & distribute would get you japanese distinguishing between two set of rul, that's fine.
122. # [00:26] <Bert> ... But why only?
123. # [00:26] <Bert> SteveZ: You can set letter-spacing to 0
124. # [00:27] <Bert> [discussion about what letter-spacing with a value does to justification]
125. # [00:27] <Bert> fantasai: Don't jknow if anybody cares if you get justification if you set letter-spacing to a value.
126. # [00:28] <Bert> SteveZ: letter-spacin: max?
127. # [00:28] <Bert> jdaggett: CAn add some value.
128. # [00:28] <Bert> fantasai: text-justify [missed]
129. # [00:28] <Bert> SteveZ: jdaggett complains abou it being a hodgepodge
130. # [00:29] <Bert> jdaggett: If we can resolve to make text-justify then we can resolveto deal with letterspacing .
131. # [00:29] <Bert> koji: webkit and ie do this property already.
132. # [00:29] <Bert> jdaggett: How can you NOT say that japanese behaves [...]
133. # [00:30] <Bert> koji: there are many docs without a lang attribute
134. # [00:30] <Bert> jdaggett: this property that was never defines is somehow already defined by practice...
135. # [00:30] <Bert> fantasai: We have that all the time.
136. # [00:30] <Bert> ... Not a circular referecne
137. # [00:31] <fantasai> koji^: Those documents will break
138. # [00:31] <Bert> jdaggett: I'm not sure this is something that breask if you treat in lang specific manner.
139. # [00:31] <Bert> fantasai: If ther is no lang attribute that may ok.
140. # [00:31] <Bert> ... But ther are docs out there thet habe no lang attr and specify inter-ideograph.
141. # [00:31] <Bert> ... They should continue to justify.
142. # [00:31] <Bert> ... Two ways.
143. # [00:32] <Bert> ... othe ris to have the initial value do that
144. # [00:32] <Bert> ... MY pref would be for auto to just work for japanese, even if lang is not specified.
145. # [00:32] <Bert> jdaggett: sniffing.
146. # [00:33] <Bert> fantasai: We don';t sniff, thsoe code points just justify.
147. # [00:33] <Bert> ... You' dhave to test if that is web-compatible.
148. # [00:33] <Bert> jdaggett: We don't even know how ie and webkit work.
149. # [00:33] <Bert> ... They haven't given any input.
150. # [00:33] <Bert> ... not on how it desirable.
151. # [00:33] <Bert> ... was an action on sylvain.
152. # [00:34] <Bert> ...stil not done.
153. # [00:34] <Bert> ... for a LC, this property should not be like this.
154. # [00:34] <Bert> .... Explore this, is one option.
155. # [00:34] <Bert> koji: how can we make consensus?
156. # [00:34] <Bert> ... both sides have said everything.
157. # [00:35] <fantasai> text-justify: none | auto | distribute | inter-word
158. # [00:35] <Bert> fantasai: I propse to define text-justify with 4 values: non auto distribute and inter-word.
159. # [00:35] <Bert> ... interword turns off letterspacing.
160. # [00:35] <Bert> ... distribuet as defd currently.
161. # [00:36] <Bert> ... auto would need test cases to ensure that cjk is correctly justified with auto.
162. # [00:36] <Bert> jdaggett: that sounds good. Not sure about inter-word.
163. # [00:36] <Bert> plinss: sounds like a way forward.
164. # [00:36] <Bert> SteveZ: interword not good for thai.
165. # [00:36] <Bert> fantasai: n, but use auto.
166. # [00:36] <Bert> s/n,/no,/
167. # [00:37] <Bert> fantasai: If it turns out to be an issue for thai we can change it.
168. # [00:37] <Bert> ... japanese has had very strong comments
169. # [00:37] <Bert> plinss: can we resolve on that?
170. # [00:38] <Bert> koji: auto includes inter-ideograph
171. # [00:38] <Bert> fantasai: as long as the languagespecific rules are applied
172. # [00:38] <fantasai> s/applied/do not forbid it/
173. # [00:38] <Bert> plinss: so, as long as there is reason not to.
174. # [00:38] <Bert> s/is/si no/
175. # [00:39] <Bert> fantasai: if you tag something as french and it has cjk, you may want to no space it.
176. # [00:39] <fantasai> fantasai: but if untagged, use ja behavior
177. # [00:40] <Bert> resolved: (1) do language-specific justification and (2) and there are 4 values: none, auto, distribute and interword
178. # [00:41] <fantasai> (3) auto includes inter-ideographic behavior
179. # [00:41] <fantasai> Discussion on inter-word continues after the break
180. # [00:42] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
181. # [00:42] <fantasai> because it interacts with letter-spacing issue
182. # [00:43] <dbaron> [dbaron and tantek leave for airport]
183. # [00:43] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
184. # [00:45] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
185. # [00:48] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
186. # [00:49] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
187. # [00:54] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
188. # [01:07] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
189. # [01:09] <fantasai> Topic: letter-spacing
190. # [01:09] <fantasai> fantasai: The letter-spacing property is defined so that if you apply any spacing value other than the initial value, it suppresses justification except at spaces.
191. # [01:09] <fantasai> fantasai: This means that you can't combine tracking with any sort of East Asian justification
192. # [01:10] <fantasai> fantasai: The proposal is to have letter-spacing: <length>; apply tracking, but leave justification alone
193. # [01:11] <fantasai> fantasai: in other words it sets the optimal spacing between letters, not a fixed spacing
194. # [01:11] <fantasai> szilles: If I have 2 different trackings on a single line
195. # [01:11] <fantasai> szilles: What happens under justification?
196. # [01:11] <fantasai> fantasai: I have no idea
197. # [01:12] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
198. # [01:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: Maybe discuss that on www-style
199. # [01:13] <jdaggett> discuss on www-style the new proposal
200. # [01:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Anyway, you were suggesting to remove extra letter-spacing values
201. # [01:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: The justification algorithm isn't specified, so that means the values of letter-spacing as defined in the spec, are not interoperable
202. # [01:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: These provide very fine-grained control
203. # [01:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: This winds up being something they tweak to handle e.g. bad justification in webkit
204. # [01:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: Some other implementation has better justification
205. # [01:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: But has to deal with these values of letter-spacing, which are tuned to webkit's implementation, and make no sense in this new implementation
206. # [01:15] <fantasai> ...
207. # [01:15] <fantasai> szilles: If we don't say something about justification spacing, when it happens, and how much, then implementations will give different results.
208. # [01:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you don't have sufficiently high quality justification algorithm, then this control becomes a crutch
209. # [01:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: And then existing content will constrain future implementations.
210. # [01:16] <fantasai> jdaggett: Thing that concerns me here, usually letter-spacing is used by ppl in design applications where they are not setting the value empirically; they're testing against an implementation
211. # [01:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: Usually from design to presentation, all same implementation
212. # [01:17] <fantasai> s/not setting/setting/
213. # [01:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: That's not the case with the Web
214. # [01:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you get to point where you need to set this property, then you're already dependent on particular implementation
215. # [01:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: You're setting it so you get what you see in WebKit
216. # [01:17] <fantasai> szilles: I don't think that's the common use.
217. # [01:17] <fantasai> szilles: Can be used that way
218. # [01:17] <fantasai> szilles: But common use is to control the amount of letter-spacing that's allowed to happen
219. # [01:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: COmmon way this is abused is to make up for deficiencies in hyphenation algorithm
220. # [01:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: Same way InDesign gives controls you shouldn't be using to do this
221. # [01:18] <fantasai> szilles: InDesign case it's ok, because wysiwyg in results
222. # [01:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you're proposing a simplified property, willing to defer this to that discussion.
223. # [01:19] <fantasai> fantasai: I want to close off css3-text and send to CR, so if we're redesigning the approach, want to push to L4
224. # [01:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: But you were saying that we needed to revise letter-spacing from 2.1 ...
225. # [01:20] <fantasai> fantasai: The issue was that 2.1 gives the ability turn off letter-spacing for justification by setting to other than normal, e.g. setting to 0
226. # [01:20] <fantasai> fantasai: And that's important for some languages like German, the ability to turn that off.
227. # [01:20] * Quits: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
228. # [01:22] <fantasai> fantasai: I was thinking that we could let letter-spacing: <length> allow justification, and use text-justify: inter-word; to turn that off
229. # [01:22] <fantasai> szilles: Suggest letter-spacing-control property that would limit the amount of justification in letter-spacing
230. # [01:22] <fantasai> szilles: John said he's concerned about variety of different implementations using this capability differently
231. # [01:23] <fantasai> szilles: So I suggested that we could define a triggering of the use f letter-spacing-based justification based on a measurement of white space
232. # [01:24] <fantasai> szilles: Most recent idea is that if I increase word spacing by more than X%, then I will trigger the use of up to the max of letter-spacing ot reduce the word space
233. # [01:24] <fantasai> szilles: Only reason I put latter in is to make it more clear as to when it's going to happen
234. # [01:24] <fantasai> szilles: How much of it is used is still left up to the algorithm. Might want to do river elimination or something.
235. # [01:24] <fantasai> szilles: The problem I have is that the use of inter-word is binary, not enough control in it.
236. # [01:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Ok, that makes sense.
237. # [01:25] <fantasai> szilles: If we did that, then I'm ok to have current thing have only one value
238. # [01:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Should we resolve on changing the current definition of letter-spacing to one value
239. # [01:25] <fantasai> ?
240. # [01:25] <fantasai> Bert: Depends on what else we do.
241. # [01:25] <fantasai> szilles: Think we should go back to letter-spacing define tracking only.
242. # [01:26] <fantasai> szilles: Controlling justification piece should be separate
243. # [01:26] <fantasai> szilles: So I can live with doing that.
244. # [01:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: Think we have ideas here. Not sure we have something enough to resolve on.
245. # [01:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: Resolve on a single value?
246. # [01:27] <fantasai> szilles: Right now we have inter-word in there, want to drop that
247. # [01:28] <fantasai> fantasai: Think we might still need it in Korean, have to investigate. But purpose there can be not about whether letter-spacing can be used, but about whether justification tries to use spaces only.
248. # [01:28] <fantasai> szilles: Ok, that makes sense to me then.
249. # [01:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: How about we resolve on a single value for letter-spacing, with action on fantasai to come up with wording that handles considerations above.
250. # [01:29] <fantasai> fantasai: So if letter-spacing takes a single value, current definition forbids tracking with justification
251. # [01:30] <fantasai> fantasai: So when letter-spacing is used, forbids any justification other than at spaces, e.g. no justification between characters/clusters in Japanese or Thai
252. # [01:31] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm ok to having only one value, just have a concern with this situation.
253. # [01:32] <fantasai> koji: What about word-spacing?
254. # [01:35] <fantasai> Bert: Have some trouble understanding what word-spacing means with three values
255. # [01:35] <fantasai> [jdaggett and fantasai try to explain this]
256. # [01:35] <jdaggett> what is the maximum value for word-spacing?
257. # [01:35] <SimonSapin> Bert: I was more surprised to see 4 values on word-spacing than on letter-spacing
258. # [01:35] <jdaggett> is it the maximum *additional* spacing (i.e. width of the space + additional word spacing)?
259. # [01:35] <jdaggett> or the maximum of (width of the space + additional space)?
260. # [01:36] <SimonSapin> [fantasai draws an example]
261. # [01:38] <SimonSapin> fantasai: the maximum refers to the max of increase to word-spacing to justification
262. # [01:39] <jdaggett> let W = width of the space
263. # [01:39] <jdaggett> L = width of letter spacing
264. # [01:39] <jdaggett> A = variable additional spacing
265. # [01:39] <jdaggett> max value of word-spacing = max(A)
266. # [01:39] <jdaggett> ]
267. # [01:39] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: the used word-spacing is one length that is between the computed min/max
268. # [01:39] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes, they all refer to the same thing
269. # [01:39] <jdaggett> fantasai: yes, that formula is correct
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271. # [01:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai: CSS1 defines word-spacing as the additional space, and I can’t change that
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273. # [01:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai: with calc you can define calc(some value - 100%)
274. # [01:42] <SimonSapin> plinss: letter-spacing happens on both sides of the space character
275. # [01:42] <SimonSapin> … so you get double letter-spacing between words
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277. # [01:43] <SimonSapin> fantasai: […] file an issue on German
278. # [01:43] <SimonSapin> fantasai: you must not letter-spacing
279. # [01:44] <SimonSapin> … for justification
280. # [01:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we have to resolve the conflict between allowing Japanese letter-spacing for justification by default and […]
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282. # [01:47] <SimonSapin> Bert: justify the last line (or only line) by increasing the font size
283. # [01:47] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: copyfitting. That’s hard
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285. # [01:48] <SimonSapin> Bert: text-align with a string value … looked at "tabbing" as done in word processors
286. # [01:48] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: not much control on how it’s lined up
287. # [01:49] <SimonSapin> plinss: very controversial
288. # [01:49] <SimonSapin> Bert: the idea is not to have to use a table
289. # [01:50] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: table with this makes implementers cry
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291. # [01:50] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: yes
292. # [01:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: syntax may not be ideal, but the functionality gets annoying in any case with tables
293. # [01:51] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: you want this working in table, wondering if it’s the right way
294. # [01:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: should defer to level 4
295. # [01:51] <jdaggett> agreed
296. # [01:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: other issues?
297. # [01:51] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: none logged. Will review
298. # [01:52] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: text-justify resolution means we can toss out at the appendix […]?
299. # [01:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes
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301. # [01:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: redefine distribute to apply to arabic which could be interesting
302. # [01:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: or redefine the cursive category
303. # [01:53] <SimonSapin> plinss: adjouned
304. # [01:53] <glazou> s/adjouned/adjourned
305. # [01:54] <glazou> </ftf>
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545. # [18:02] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
546. # [18:03] * plinss_away is now known as plinss
547. # [18:17] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
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557. # [19:29] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
558. # [19:41] * plinss_away is now known as plinss
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564. # [20:17] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
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566. # [20:59] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
567. # [21:00] <dbaron> do we have a template we use for responses to last call comments?
568. # [21:01] * Joins: danielfilho (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
569. # [21:03] <dbaron> looks like not, looking at the DoC for flexbox CR
570. # [21:03] <dbaron> which is fine with me
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582. # [22:58] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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591. # [23:27] * Quits: antonp1 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp1)
592. # [23:44] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
593. # Session Close: Fri Feb 08 00:00:00 2013

The end :)