/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-02-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 20 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  51. # [07:26] <dbaron> fantasai, fyi, I linked all the minutes from http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013
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  177. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc
  178. # [17:28] <glazou> zakim, this will be Style
  179. # [17:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
  180. # [17:28] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  181. # [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  187. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  188. # [17:57] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  189. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  190. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P31
  191. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P31 is me
  192. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  193. # [17:58] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  194. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  195. # [17:59] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  196. # [17:59] <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
  197. # [17:59] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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  200. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P42
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  202. # [18:00] <darktears> Zakim, ??P42 is me
  203. # [18:00] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
  204. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aabb
  205. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +97362aacc
  206. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is djackson
  207. # [18:02] <Zakim> +djackson; got it
  208. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  209. # [18:02] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  210. # [18:02] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  211. # [18:02] * krit djackson? competition for dino
  212. # [18:03] <hober> that's not dino
  213. # [18:03] <hober> dino is on my line
  214. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P61
  215. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
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  217. # [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  219. # [18:04] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  220. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
  221. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dbaron
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  224. # [18:04] <glazou> sylvaing, how many animation issues to discuss ?
  225. # [18:04] <sylvaing> I have 5
  226. # [18:04] <glazou> ok
  227. # [18:05] <glazou> time allocated ?
  228. # [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  229. # [18:05] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, krit, SylvaIng, darktears, djackson, +97362aacc, [Apple], ??P61, plinss, fantasai, dbaron
  230. # [18:05] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  231. # [18:05] <sylvaing> Let's say 20mn?
  232. # [18:05] * fantasai waves to djackson
  233. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  234. # [18:05] <glazou> perfect sylvaing
  235. # [18:05] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  236. # [18:05] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  237. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aadd
  238. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr
  239. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  240. # [18:05] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  241. # [18:05] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  242. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is rhauck
  243. # [18:06] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
  244. # [18:06] <SimonSapin1> \o/ Zakim got the right nick for me this time
  245. # [18:06] <glazou> lucky you...
  246. # [18:06] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  247. # [18:06] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
  248. # [18:06] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
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  250. # [18:07] * nvdbleek sorry for being late, but had trouble getting in
  251. # [18:07] <hober> Zakim, Apple has dino
  252. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dino; got it
  253. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is antonp
  254. # [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  255. # [18:07] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  256. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaee
  257. # [18:07] * krit dino, trademark of Apple
  258. # [18:07] <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
  259. # [18:07] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  260. # [18:07] <smfr> Zakim, who's noisy?
  261. # [18:07] * dino is the D in Apple
  262. # [18:08] <glazou> dino, ROFL
  263. # [18:08] <Zakim> smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: rhauck (16%), bradk (3%), fantasai (11%)
  264. # [18:08] <bradk> I don't think the noise was me, but I muted my phone anyway
  265. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  266. # [18:08] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  267. # [18:08] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
  268. # [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: Extra items?
  269. # [18:08] <fantasai> krit: Edited Masking spec, would like to ask for review
  270. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P80
  271. # [18:09] <jdaggett> zakim, ++p80 is me
  272. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '++p80'
  273. # [18:09] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Proposal for adding percentages to column-width/column-gap
  274. # [18:09] <krit> s/ask for review/ask for review by email, is that ok?/
  275. # [18:09] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p80 is me
  276. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: You wondered if doable in CR. Let's discuss that after animations
  277. # [18:09] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  278. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Tantek
  279. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else?
  280. # [18:09] <tantek> Zakim, mute Tantek
  281. # [18:09] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  282. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaff
  283. # [18:09] * dino agenda += moment of silence for sylvain
  284. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  285. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: Start with Animations, b/c sylvain on call for last time
  286. # [18:09] <fantasai> Topic: Animations
  287. # [18:09] <fantasai> sylvaing: Any objections to adding Rossen as editor to Animations?
  288. # [18:10] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add Rossen as editor to Animations
  289. # [18:10] <glazou> LOL case sensitivity...
  290. # [18:10] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0461.html'
  291. # [18:10] <fantasai> sylvaing: Clarification for me, case-sensitivity of user-defined idents was resolved in Tucson. Is that in CSS3 Values yet?
  292. # [18:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Don't think edit has made it in yet, but will do today.
  293. # [18:10] <fantasai> sylvaing: Ok, will refer to that.
  294. # [18:10] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html
  295. # [18:11] <fantasai> sylvaing: Current wording ignores multiple values, multiple keyframes, etc.
  296. # [18:11] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  297. # [18:11] <fantasai> sylvaing: Oyvind proposed some text.
  298. # [18:11] <fantasai> [see email]
  299. # [18:11] <fantasai> sylvaing: I think good idea to clarify that.
  300. # [18:12] <dino> +1 to clarifying that text
  301. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: There was an interop issue with definition of valid @keyframes rule
  302. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: Previous decision on that, make sure it's clear too
  303. # [18:12] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Oyvind's clarification accepted for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html
  304. # [18:12] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14805
  305. # [18:13] <fantasai> sylvaing: Question from dbaron on using timing functions inside keyframe rules
  306. # [18:13] <fantasai> sylvaing: Understood that if you have timing function on keyframe rule, .. next one
  307. # [18:13] <fantasai> sylvaing: What if you're going in a different direction, e.g. reverse / alternate?
  308. # [18:13] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0744.html
  309. # [18:13] <fantasai> sylvaing: When you go from N to N+1, you always use timing function defined in frame N.
  310. # [18:13] <fantasai> dino: Intended, but not written. Sorry. Yes.
  311. # [18:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Timing function on a keyframe defines that particular gap, regardless which way you're going.
  312. # [18:14] <fantasai> dino: Maybe add to spec that animation literally runs in reverse
  313. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: Except it doesn't
  314. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think it does.
  315. # [18:14] <fantasai> dino: ?
  316. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: Do we reduce the math of the timing function, or ue the appropriate timing function?
  317. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/ue/use/
  318. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. if you have ease-in(), then you ease-in() to that point regardless of direciton.
  319. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Right, so we are not reversing animation per se
  320. # [18:15] * fantasai suggests someone correct IRC if it's wrong
  321. # [18:15] * fantasai can't
  322. # [18:15] <fantasai> [...]
  323. # [18:15] <fantasai> sylvaing: What does Gecko do?
  324. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Have to check
  325. # [18:15] * glazou fantasai minutes are correct, it's what dino said that is wrong
  326. # [18:16] <fantasai> dino: we process value from 0 - 1, [...] so timing function does actually play backwards when you go in a reverse order
  327. # [18:16] <fantasai> dino: If you're 10% through reverse, we calculate as if 90% of going forwards
  328. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's defer resolution of this issue until dino's email
  329. # [18:16] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yes, and we should check implementations. I think we do what Gecko does
  330. # [18:16] <dbaron> you mean, you think IE does the same thing that I *think* Gecko does? :-)
  331. # [18:17] <glazou> LOL
  332. # [18:17] <fantasai> sylvaing: But don't think it's a major breaking change if we have to swap it.
  333. # [18:17] * Bert giving up. Cannot get through to Zakim :-(
  334. # [18:17] <fantasai> smfr: Think we don't what to change WebKit. And intent is that reverse is a mirror image of the forward animation.
  335. # [18:17] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15848
  336. # [18:17] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
  337. # [18:17] <fantasai> sylvaing: Prose in spec about defining start of animation
  338. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
  339. # [18:18] <sylvaing> # The start time of an animation is the latter of two moments: the
  340. # [18:18] <sylvaing> # time at which the style is resolved that specifies the
  341. # [18:18] <sylvaing> # animation, or the time the document's load event is fired.
  342. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: Hard one to test, and not exactly what browsers do, really
  343. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm wondering, what is the point of this statement?
  344. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: Or is it really, animation applies when the animation-name property is resolved?
  345. # [18:18] <fantasai> smfr: in WebKit we did start until document load, but that's no longer true.
  346. # [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron: Don't think it was true at the time I implemented animations in Gecko
  347. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: Also, hard to test. Interesting implementation details, not sure how you'd test across browsers.
  348. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: Should really say it applies at the time the animation-name property is resolved.
  349. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: Of course, we're getting to, we don't define when things are computed.
  350. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: But document load is bogus.
  351. # [18:19] * Quits: logbot (~logbot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  352. # [18:20] <fantasai> krit: Does that mean that document is loaded (onload), or all required parts loaded (e.g. all style sheets)
  353. # [18:20] * Quits: dino (~dino@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  354. # [18:20] <fantasai> krit: When you have document load, can you be sure style is resolved for all parts of the document?
  355. # [18:20] * Quits: CSSWG_LogBot (~PircBot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  356. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: [...]
  357. # [18:20] * Quits: leaverou_away (~leaverou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  358. # [18:20] <fantasai> sylvaing: Why does it matter?
  359. # [18:20] * Quits: isherman (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  360. # [18:20] <fantasai> krit: For SVG, when the document is read for complete rendering, that's when animations start.
  361. # [18:21] <fantasai> smfr: We specced that way for CSS originally, then changed our minds
  362. # [18:21] <fantasai> krit: Might need to align SVG to this then
  363. # [18:21] * Quits: shans (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  364. # [18:21] * Quits: csswg (~csswg@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  365. # [18:21] * Quits: alexmog (~alexmog@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  366. # [18:21] <fantasai> sylvaing: Sadly, don't think we have priority on when things are computed.
  367. # [18:21] * Joins: dino (~dino@public.cloak)
  368. # [18:21] <fantasai> sylvaing: Don't want to leave statement in there that doesn't agree with implementations.
  369. # [18:21] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  370. # [18:21] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  371. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we need to fix this to match what everyone is doing, b/c we all agree that this is wrong.
  372. # [18:22] * Joins: isherman (~Adium@public.cloak)
  373. # [18:22] <fantasai> sylvaing: Think it goes back to resolution earlier, animation applies when animation-name is computed, and have last valid @keyframe in sorted order. That's it
  374. # [18:22] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  375. # [18:22] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, krit, SylvaIng, darktears, djackson, antonp, [Apple], ??P61, plinss, fantasai, dbaron, [Microsoft], rhauck, smfr, SimonSapin, nvdbleek (muted), bradk,
  376. # [18:22] * Zakim ... SteveZ, jdaggett, Tantek (muted), +1.832.797.aaff
  377. # [18:22] * Zakim [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  378. # [18:22] * Zakim [Apple] has dino
  379. # [18:22] <fantasai> krit: Suppose you have huge document, like HTML5 spec, animation on one of first elements that get rendered.
  380. # [18:23] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  381. # [18:23] <fantasai> krit: Do animations wait until whole document is loaded?
  382. # [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: we all implemented that they start before the whole document is loaded
  383. # [18:23] <fantasai> krit: Then how do you align animations?
  384. # [18:23] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
  385. # [18:23] <fantasai> sylvaing: When this is resolved is up to UA.
  386. # [18:23] * Joins: alexmog_away (~alexmog@public.cloak)
  387. # [18:23] * Joins: CSSWG_LogBot (~PircBot@public.cloak)
  388. # [18:23] <fantasai> sylvaing: Whenever value computation occurs.
  389. # [18:24] <fantasai> krit: Can we add a sentence that says this might be more precise in the future?
  390. # [18:24] * alexmog_away is now known as alexmog
  391. # [18:24] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  392. # [18:24] <Zakim> nvdbleek was already muted, nvdbleek
  393. # [18:24] * Joins: csswg (~csswg@public.cloak)
  394. # [18:24] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  395. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: I would prefer to define it more precisely in this spec, even if we don't have definitions for all terms
  396. # [18:24] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  397. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: krit's point wrt aligning animations?
  398. # [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: We don't align animations.
  399. # [18:25] <fantasai> krit: That's the point of Web Animations, to align them.
  400. # [18:25] * Joins: leaverou_away (~leaverou@public.cloak)
  401. # [18:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Might fix later
  402. # [18:25] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  403. # [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: Don't think it would be acceptable to fix it later, which is why I think we should define it now.
  404. # [18:25] <fantasai> sylvaing: Later on would be enough content that we would be unable to fix it.
  405. # [18:25] <fantasai> ACTION: dbaron propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
  406. # [18:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  407. # [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
  408. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-543 - Propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html [on David Baron - due 2013-02-27].
  409. # [18:25] * Joins: shans_away (~shans@public.cloak)
  410. # [18:25] * shans_away is now known as shans
  411. # [18:25] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21018
  412. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: Duplicated keyframes
  413. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: If you have N for 50%, you drop previous ones, at least that's what spec recommends.
  414. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: dbaron suggested at the time maybe we should cascade them.
  415. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: Not sure what it means wrt compat, if Gecko does that.
  416. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: Gecko does cascade them. Has not been a compat problem.
  417. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: I suspect that if we tried to change it in the other direction, might be a compat problem. But this one not so much. Or at least, we didn't hit any problems.
  418. # [18:27] * Joins: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak)
  419. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: I really feel that what the spec says is really just very unlike everything CSS does.
  420. # [18:27] * fantasai agrees
  421. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: It's the norm in CSS that if you have one declaration, and you have another that has one property, it just overrides that one property, not throw out entire block. Reasonable expectation of authors.
  422. # [18:27] * Quits: djackson (~djackson@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  423. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: The OM for animations only returns one rule for the keyframe, not multiple.
  424. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The OM for keyframes is completely busted.
  425. # [18:28] * Joins: djackson_ (~djackson@public.cloak)
  426. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: Whatever we decide on this topic, the OM should reflect that too.
  427. # [18:29] * Joins: logbot (~logbot@public.cloak)
  428. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: If we allow multiple keyframes with same key to cascade, then findRuleForKey should become findRulesForKey and return multiple rules. Otherwise won't be editable.
  429. # [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing, TabAtkins: fair point
  430. # [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: I agree with dbaron's point in generall, not very CSS-like to have bunch of selector-like constructs, and last one cancels previous ones instead of having cascade.
  431. # [18:30] <fantasai> glazou: I agree
  432. # [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: When you ask for 50% rule, you want all rules that are for 50%, you want in order of course. maybe at some point, maybe not in this level, give me computed/resolved rule for 50%?
  433. # [18:30] <fantasai> glazou: Yes, I agree with that, we need that too.
  434. # [18:31] <fantasai> glazou: You could retrieve that from the current findRule in the OM, and if you have multiple keyframes, we need API for that.
  435. # [18:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: Do we need that for this level?
  436. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you're looking for the value for width being animated at 50%, and specified in different keyframes, if you can get a list, then it's easy to iterate the list and get that.
  437. # [18:32] * jdaggett is tab on a greyhound bus?!?
  438. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: You said OM is busted. OM has to be consistent with the prose.
  439. # [18:32] * hober shans: ^^
  440. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We can do a minimum fix, and add to it later.
  441. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: Minimum we could do is remove findRule and add findRules.
  442. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: You could maybe define findRule to return the cascaded result
  443. # [18:33] <fantasai> dbaron: No, it needs to return something you can edit.
  444. # [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing: Still need to figure out OM. Are we resolving on cascading the keyframes?
  445. # [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing pokes dino
  446. # [18:33] <fantasai> smfr: I think that's fine. Don't think any content has multiple keyframe rules, except by mistake.
  447. # [18:34] <fantasai> sylvaing: OK, so we'll update that. Then have open issue on updating OM to give a list of rules.
  448. # [18:34] <fantasai> sylvaing: and another issue on adding API for combined ruleset
  449. # [18:34] <fantasai> ACTION: glazou send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules
  450. # [18:34] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  451. # [18:34] * RRSAgent records action 2
  452. # [18:34] <trackbot> Created ACTION-544 - Send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-02-27].
  453. # [18:34] <fantasai> RESOLVED: keyframe rules cascade
  454. # [18:34] <darktears> glazou: yes I have
  455. # [18:34] <fantasai> sylvaing: That's it.
  456. # [18:35] <fantasai> dino: Alexis has an issue
  457. # [18:35] <fantasai> darktears: We do have a problem with pseudo-elements ... animations
  458. # [18:35] <fantasai> darktears: Someone asked on mailing list, how do I know when animation finished on a pseudo-element?
  459. # [18:35] <dbaron> s/pseudo-elements/the pseudoElement attribute/
  460. # [18:35] <fantasai> darktears: You don't know today.
  461. # [18:35] <darktears> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0062.html
  462. # [18:35] <darktears> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/#transition-events
  463. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Same problem for Transitions
  464. # [18:36] <fantasai> darktears: Mozilla people bring issues wrt compatibility
  465. # [18:36] <sylvaing> transition and animation events expose the same property
  466. # [18:36] <darktears> right
  467. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you just fire plain animation issues with pseudoElements, you might get unexpectedly more animation events.
  468. # [18:36] * glazou has a compatibility issue between his glasses and his headset :-(
  469. # [18:36] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  470. # [18:36] <darktears> WebKit ships it on Transsitions
  471. # [18:36] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we should try implementing it and see if compatibility problem.
  472. # [18:36] <darktears> it's implemented
  473. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yeah, there's not a lot of content out there that uses animations on pseudo-elements. If only because it was not interoperable.
  474. # [18:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: Event handler code, wouldn't need to filter for pseudo-elements
  475. # [18:37] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  476. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If it didn't work on WebKit, nobody would have written code for it, right.
  477. # [18:37] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  478. # [18:37] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  479. # [18:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: pseudoElement property on these events is pretty new, so no real-world content with event-handling code that checks for it.
  480. # [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: True that more events fired. Could be some breakage, but hard to image it would be huge.
  481. # [18:38] <fantasai> darktears: Use cases Boris brought on mailing list were rather exotic
  482. # [18:38] <fantasai> darktears: Problems and use-cases he saw on real content, but to be very honest, was very broken code.
  483. # [18:38] <fantasai> darktears: Website would be broken if WebKit shipped unprefixed
  484. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: ...
  485. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Later add animation on ::before
  486. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Your animation code is not checking for the pseudoElement on that element.
  487. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Do your animation even processing too early, there is a risk of breakage.
  488. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Not sure what we can do here.
  489. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Strategy of changing event name...
  490. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: If we want the opportunity to change, we can consider that real-life use cases are rare enough, still allows us to change.
  491. # [18:40] <darktears> I mean in WebKIt we do have it implemented to Transitions and will probably ship soon with Chrome. We'll get feedback soon
  492. # [18:40] * krit Noo.. Animations get the new flex-box (without renaming :P)
  493. # [18:40] <darktears> so far nothing showed up
  494. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Not necessarily true in near future. So it's right time to do this.
  495. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Seems we running in circles.
  496. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Are we proposing to add pseudoElement? Yes/no?
  497. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: It's already in there
  498. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Do we care to remove it?
  499. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Since objections seem to come from Mozilla, but dbaron's ok with trying it, think we keep it.
  500. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: Will come back with info on this, but takes awhile to ship, so in a few months
  501. # [18:41] <darktears> ok for me
  502. # [18:41] * darktears baron CC me if anything shows up :)
  503. # [18:41] * krit mark at risk all the things
  504. # [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: Can mark it at-risk, so won't hold up for CR.
  505. # [18:42] <darktears> yes
  506. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: Also it's a "let's try and implement it" change, that's what CR is for.
  507. # [18:42] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Keep pseudoElement on animation events. Mark at-risk. Revisit in a few months if it's a web-compat problem.
  508. # [18:42] <fantasai> Topic: Publications
  509. # [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: First one is Paged Media
  510. # [18:43] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Since we requested new WD, some ppl have started reviewing it, so I have some old issues I found that I had lost, and some new issues too
  511. # [18:43] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Some easy to fix, want to fix in next few days. Some I want to defer after new WD.
  512. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Anything really critical that could block WD?
  513. # [18:43] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Don't think so
  514. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: What do ppl think of releasing new WD of css3-page?
  515. # [18:43] <sylvaing> is always in favor of new drafts
  516. # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: New WD for CSS3 Paged Media
  517. # [18:44] <fantasai> SimonSapin: We just added new feature, having multiple pseudo-classes in @page selectors. New in draft, but we have two implementations already.
  518. # [18:44] <fantasai> e.g. @page :first:left
  519. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: Did you update specificity?
  520. # [18:44] <fantasai> SimonSapin: ...
  521. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: still need to do that, filed an issue
  522. # [18:45] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add pseudo-class combinations for @page selectors
  523. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: Next one, Print Profile.
  524. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Needs to be published with Paged Media.
  525. # [18:45] <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/
  526. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Just switched it to WG Note, and updated references
  527. # [18:46] <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-syntax
  528. # [18:46] <fantasai> scroll up from CSS Syntax
  529. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Section on handling image-rendering properties, specifically object-fit / object-position.
  530. # [18:47] <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-images
  531. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Previous CSS Print profile included [... fill in later ...]
  532. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: Please add Changes from Previous Version section
  533. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Ok, I can do that.
  534. # [18:47] <dbaron> I think that (1) if we publish the document, it should have an editor listed (fantasai, I think) who is an active member of the working group and (2) it should probably also have a public editor's draft if it's an active document
  535. # [18:48] <fantasai> glazou: Any objection to publishing?
  536. # [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think it should be an active document. Think we just publish this update, and then ignore the fact that it exists.
  537. # [18:48] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish css-print with fantasai as editor, updated changes section.
  538. # [18:48] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0040.html
  539. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: At F2F we had almost all issues resolved, a few left
  540. # [18:49] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
  541. # [18:49] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0229.html
  542. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: First one was proposal for issue 5, which is behavior of insertRule
  543. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: I looked at what impl do, not quite consistent.
  544. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: Seem we like WebKit behavior best, so suggest we spec that. I've already implemented it in Gecko.
  545. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Question is basically what happens if you pass insertRule an empty string, or multiple rules, or valid rule with other garbage afterward.
  546. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Proposal is they all throw SyntaxError exception b/c not a valid single rule.
  547. # [18:50] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Don't we have same on stylesheet object?
  548. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: I would expect same rules to apply there.
  549. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Spec was equally unclear
  550. # [18:50] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  551. # [18:50] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  552. # [18:51] <fantasai> ACTION: Glenn to update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument
  553. # [18:51] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  554. # [18:51] * RRSAgent records action 3
  555. # [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-545 - Update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-02-27].
  556. # [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: Others, one was unclear if had addressed; had been.
  557. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> should css3-syntax define what is valid?
  558. # [18:51] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  559. # [18:51] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/doc-20121213-LCWD.txt
  560. # [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: Others were editorial, plus one resolution that was missing edits.
  561. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: Colorized DoC?
  562. # [18:52] <fantasai> glazou: Helps for the conf call with staff
  563. # [18:52] <fantasai> glazou: If you don't have time, don't worry, but if do, that will help
  564. # [18:52] <fantasai> glazou: Any objection to move to CR?
  565. # [18:52] <fantasai> Florian: No, let's go!
  566. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED: css3-conditional to CR
  567. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Would like to link to test suite at time we publish CR.
  568. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Have a bunch of tests, but no built test suite
  569. # [18:53] <fantasai> plinss: I'll take care of that.
  570. # [18:53] <fantasai> florian: You're referring to tests contributed by Mozilla and by me?
  571. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Yes, would prefer something that's more than a query in shepherd to refer to
  572. # [18:54] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert start process for CR for css3-conditional
  573. # [18:54] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  574. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 4
  575. # [18:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-546 - Start process for CR for css3-conditional [on Bert Bos - due 2013-02-27].
  576. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: Tab, counter styles?
  577. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Edited all issues based on F2F discussion
  578. # [18:54] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/
  579. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAkins: Want LC
  580. # [18:55] <glazou> fantasai, TabAtkins_, missing Changes from Last Version here too
  581. # [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: we just added the new feature (for 0-filling), I think we should publish a WD today or so
  582. # [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: and then give people a few weeks to review before LC
  583. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: No objection to WD?
  584. # [18:56] <dbaron> fantasai: Tab, please update the changes section, and I'll deal with a quick publication request
  585. # [18:57] <fantasai> RESOLVED: New WD counter-styles, expect LC in 2 weeks or so
  586. # [18:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: We had proposal on mailing list to add percentages to column-width or column-gap
  587. # [18:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Do implementers want to do this?
  588. # [18:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Should we do this in CR?
  589. # [18:57] <fantasai> glazou: Have a use case for this. If you try to show an editing grid in bg of document, using background is very useful
  590. # [18:58] <fantasai> glazou: Setting columns to percentages will ensure columns map to the grid.
  591. # [18:58] <fantasai> glazou: If you try Adobe, does this.
  592. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Why not use column-count?
  593. # [18:58] <dbaron> q+
  594. # [18:58] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  595. # [18:58] <fantasai> glazou: I think it's not enough.
  596. # [18:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Seems useful
  597. # [18:59] * glazou there are people discussing in background, please tell them to be less noisy or shut the door
  598. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I think it'll confuse people into thinking it's the preferred way to get certain number of columns
  599. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: It's not, because there's gaps, and it's not quite that.
  600. # [18:59] <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy
  601. # [18:59] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
  602. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: They will get unexpected results.
  603. # [19:00] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  604. # [19:00] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SimonSapin (52%), glazou (9%)
  605. # [19:00] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I think request was first for column-gap, then column-width b/c looked easy, but maybe we don't need that.
  606. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Given column-gap: <percent> is handled by column-count, ok with me
  607. # [19:00] <dbaron> dbaron: column-gap is fine with me, as long as we clearly say what it's relative to
  608. # [19:00] <fantasai> glazou: Ok with me too, as long as we have percent for column-gap..
  609. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: Any objection to adding that to spec?
  610. # [19:01] <fantasai> Florian: Which level?
  611. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Have to go back to LC for other edits anyway
  612. # [19:01] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add percentages to column-gap, not to column-width (use column-count for that, it's better)
  613. # [19:01] <jdaggett> help
  614. # [19:01] <fantasai> jdaggett: Think one issue we can resolve quickly, font load events in fonts spec
  615. # [19:02] <dbaron> Topic: Splitting font load events out of fonts spec
  616. # [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: font-load events, important issues about ?
  617. # [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: People leaving various comments ...
  618. # [19:02] <glazou> darktears, mute please
  619. # [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: Potential for churn on this one portion of the spec, and seems would make sens to push out to separate spec.
  620. # [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: If ppl ok with that, will take out of spec, and put together something else
  621. # [19:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: Would like resolution on pushing out font load events.
  622. # [19:02] * darktears glazou : I'm muted
  623. # [19:02] <fantasai> glazou: I can live with that, no problem
  624. # [19:02] <dbaron> fine with me
  625. # [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I agree
  626. # [19:03] <SteveZ> OK, with removal, would like quick progress on separate document
  627. # [19:03] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@public.cloak)
  628. # [19:03] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Push font load events out to separate spec
  629. # [19:03] * Joins: abucur (~abucur@public.cloak)
  630. # [19:03] <fantasai> glazou: One last thing, let's all wave goodbye to Sylvain!
  631. # [19:03] <smfr> bye sylvaing!
  632. # [19:03] <darktears> sylvaing: good bye!
  633. # [19:03] <dbaron> bye sylvaing, and thanks
  634. # [19:03] <fantasai> glazou: I hope you'll be around for something else, another WG in consortium...
  635. # [19:03] <tantek> bye sylvaing! hope to see you soon.
  636. # [19:03] <hober> sylvaing: don't go! :)
  637. # [19:03] * SteveZ waving good-bye and welcome
  638. # [19:03] <fantasai> glazou: If it's the case, see you at TPAC
  639. # [19:03] <Zakim> -antonp
  640. # [19:03] <Zakim> -rhauck
  641. # [19:03] <bradk> bye sylvaing
  642. # [19:03] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  643. # [19:03] <sylvaing> bye everyone
  644. # [19:04] * sylvaing and thanks SteveZ
  645. # [19:04] <JohnJansen> boo SteveZ
  646. # [19:04] <tantek> Is it still shipping?
  647. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  648. # [19:04] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/")
  649. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  650. # [19:04] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  651. # [19:04] <tantek> If Opera stops shipping it .. then it's not "shipping" any more.
  652. # [19:05] <fantasai> [side discussion of using Presto as an implementation]
  653. # [19:05] <SimonSapin> tantek: old versions already shipped stay shipped
  654. # [19:05] <tantek> SimonSapin - if they're still downloadable, if not, then no.
  655. # [19:05] <dbaron> dbaron: the question of what the rules allow and what we ought to do are different
  656. # [19:05] * TabAtkins_ tantek, they're not shipping *new* versions, but the old versions have already shipped.
  657. # [19:05] <tantek> E.g. we can't use IE5/Mac as an implementation.
  658. # [19:05] * Quits: djackson_ (~djackson@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  659. # [19:05] <Zakim> -djackson
  660. # [19:05] <sylvaing> tantek, i think if users can't download it it's not shipping. if they stop improving it but you can download it then it still counts though not for much longer since nothing new will happen there
  661. # [19:05] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  662. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  663. # [19:05] <Zakim> -krit
  664. # [19:06] <tantek> sylvaing - agreed
  665. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Tantek
  666. # [19:06] <SteveZ> The point was that other can replicate tests using the "shipped" implementation.
  667. # [19:06] * tantek unmuted his phone and it crashed.
  668. # [19:06] <Zakim> -darktears
  669. # [19:06] <tantek> SteveZ - not if it's no longer "shipping"
  670. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  671. # [19:06] <tantek> hence my point about IE5/Mac
  672. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  673. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dbaron
  674. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  675. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  676. # [19:06] <SteveZ> s/other/others/
  677. # [19:06] <Zakim> -??P61
  678. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  679. # [19:06] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  680. # [19:06] * sylvaing has IE5/Mac running with Rosetta
  681. # [19:06] <Zakim> -bradk
  682. # [19:06] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  683. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  684. # [19:06] <tantek> so as long as Opera/Presto is downloadable, yes, but once they pull the downloads, no more.
  685. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  686. # [19:06] <Zakim> - +1.832.797.aaff
  687. # [19:06] <fantasai> pprspointer
  688. # [19:06] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  689. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc#T18-04-06
  690. # [19:07] <glazou> tantek, Opera made an announcement but if for instance antennahouse stopped or stalled work on their batch processor, you would not know
  691. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  692. # [19:07] <tantek> sylvaing - you'll have to show me how you got that working!
  693. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  694. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, SylvaIng, krit, darktears, +1.610.324.aabb, +97362aacc, djackson, hober, plinss, fantasai, dbaron, +1.415.615.aadd, smfr, SimonSapin,
  695. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... JohnJansen, rhauck, nvdbleek, dino, antonp, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, SteveZ, jdaggett, Tantek, +1.832.797.aaff, florian
  696. # [19:07] <glazou> and we could still use it in tests
  697. # [19:07] <glazou> there should be no difference
  698. # [19:07] * sylvaing or rather did a couple of OSX releases ago. Must try again.
  699. # [19:07] <glazou> implementation is available and testable
  700. # [19:07] <glazou> yes or no:-)
  701. # [19:07] * Quits: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 18.0.2/20130201065344]")
  702. # [19:08] <glazou> in other news, I started drafting Paged Media Level 4
  703. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> And implementation was a serious ship to the public, not just a theoretical branch (so things like performance actually matter, for example)
  704. # [19:08] <glazou> that's not in our crtiteria
  705. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> Yes it is, actually.
  706. # [19:08] <glazou> usually perf comments are made during spec writing time
  707. # [19:08] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  708. # [19:08] <SimonSapin> glazou: anything you want to show yet?
  709. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> As part of the definition of "shipping"
  710. # [19:09] <glazou> SimonSapin, no, just started
  711. # [19:09] <glazou> TabAtkins_, what I am said, if there are perf issues, it's not shipped
  712. # [19:09] <glazou> s/I am said/I said
  713. # [19:09] * oyvind is wondering what "it" is in "Is it still shipping?"
  714. # [19:09] <glazou> Opera
  715. # [19:09] <glazou> on Prsto
  716. # [19:09] <glazou> Presto even :-)
  717. # [19:09] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I agree with your characterization. ^_^
  718. # [19:10] * glazou thinks 'Opera lost a e' could be a nice meme
  719. # [19:10] <oyvind> oh ok, I thought it was about some specific feature
  720. # [19:10] <SimonSapin> oyvind: does it still count as an implementation for advancing specs
  721. # [19:10] <glazou> ok, guys, time for daddy duty here
  722. # [19:10] <glazou> bye
  723. # [19:10] <oyvind> as long as it still conforms to the spec, it shows that the spec is implementable, no?
  724. # [19:11] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) ("bork bork bork")
  725. # [19:11] <SimonSapin> oyvind: but will it still be available/downloadable a few months from now?
  726. # [19:11] <gsnedders> tantek, SimonSapin: Given we still have 3.21 downloads available…
  727. # [19:12] * Quits: dino (~dino@public.cloak) (dino)
  728. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, do you need to pay for that one?
  729. # [19:12] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yes.
  730. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> I don't think it counts, then :)
  731. # [19:13] <fantasai> It does
  732. # [19:13] <tantek> gsnedders - great, as long as downloads are still available, no problem.
  733. # [19:13] <gsnedders> My point was rather the whole archive isn't going to vanish.
  734. # [19:13] <fantasai> Implementations that are sold are still publicly available.
  735. # [19:13] <fantasai> The criteria don't specify "free" :)
  736. # [19:13] <gsnedders> http://arc.opera.com/pub/opera/ FWIW
  737. # [19:13] <fantasai> And that's intentional.
  738. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> Fascinating
  739. # [19:13] <gsnedders> fantasai: I think the address it gives to get a code doesn't work :)
  740. # [19:13] <gsnedders> (i.e., it's the old old office)
  741. # [19:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Heading to a quick doctor thing, then I'll write up the Changes section.
  742. # [19:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Note, We have to get this in by EST
  743. # [19:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Send me a text when you finish. Try to get it done by lunch?
  744. # [19:15] <fantasai> s/by/before/
  745. # [19:16] <SimonSapin> fantasai: feedback welcome on paged media stuff ;)
  746. # [19:17] <tantek> TabAtkins - I added h-card and h-entry to counter-styles - hope you don't mind.
  747. # [19:19] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  748. # [19:32] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  749. # [19:46] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  750. # [19:52] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  751. # [19:58] * Joins: saabimeister (~saabi@public.cloak)
  752. # [20:01] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  753. # [20:06] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  754. # [20:17] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I don't understand how h-entry works here. We don't have an element to host the content class.
  755. # [20:18] <tantek> h-entry doesn't require full content, just as RSS doesn't
  756. # [20:18] <TabAtkins_> But we don't have *any* content.
  757. # [20:18] <tantek> name, url, summary is sufficient for it to be useful
  758. # [20:18] <TabAtkins_> Hm, kk. I thought the spec for it actually required at least one.
  759. # [20:19] <tantek> even hAtom only required 0 or more entry-content
  760. # [20:19] <tantek> and in microformats2 - all properties are optional
  761. # [20:19] <tantek> by design
  762. # [20:19] <tantek> and then we just specify processing rules for how to handle that
  763. # [20:20] <tantek> makes authoring valid microformats much easier
  764. # [20:20] <TabAtkins_> In that case, I'm fine with it.
  765. # [20:21] <tantek> the use case for such "summary" h-entry markup is all those sites that take a link and provide a summary around it on their own site. E.g. G+, FB, Pinterest, Twitter etc. (who all have *different* proprietary ways of doing it now, but hopefully we can eventually get them to parse for standard h-entry as well)
  766. # [20:21] <tantek> cool. yeah I've updated the css module template accordingly as well.
  767. # [20:23] <tantek> oops I forgot to do the hg push and now have to merge
  768. # [20:23] <tantek> what does this mean? "not updating: crosses branches (merge branches or update --check to force update)"
  769. # [20:25] <fantasai> Did you try hg merge?
  770. # [20:26] <tantek> this doesn't sound good though: 2 files updated, 0 files merged
  771. # [20:27] <tantek> I have to recommit?
  772. # [20:27] <tantek> this is confusing as hell
  773. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> tantek, hg heads .
  774. # [20:27] <tantek> so basically, just keep doing hg pull -u, hg commit, hg merge, hg push until it stops giving errors
  775. # [20:28] <tantek> in some random order
  776. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> Sounds like you committed before pulling
  777. # [20:28] * tantek is amused by folks that think hg is usable by any definition.
  778. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Anyway, if you're going to troll, figure it out yourself
  779. # [20:29] <tantek> use a cryptic set of commands that look like english words but don't assume anything from their english meanings, get back a cryptic set of messages (possibly error) also in what appears to be in english but doesn't mean that. assign new translations to all commands and messages.
  780. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> Sounds like git
  781. # [20:31] <tantek> Ms2ger - yep, hg and git commands/results are equivalently cryptic to me.
  782. # [20:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  783. # [20:37] <fantasai> tantek: Humor Ms2ger and paste output ot hg heads
  784. # [20:37] <fantasai> s/ot/to/
  785. # [20:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: When you get a chance, point us at your commit script?
  786. # [20:41] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  787. # [20:42] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  788. # [20:50] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  789. # [20:55] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Added the changes section to the draft.
  790. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> fantasai, TabAtkins_, btw: [[HTML]] in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-cascade/#preshint is broken
  791. # [21:17] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  792. # [21:18] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
  793. # [21:19] * Quits: isherman-book (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  794. # [21:28] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: I hate our biblio references. :/
  795. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> I like Anolis's more ;)
  796. # [21:34] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: As my preprocessor expands, I'll have a real crossref system that makes sense.
  797. # [21:36] <stearns> cross refs that actually link to the particular part of the spec being referenced?
  798. # [21:37] <TabAtkins_> For gods sake, yes.
  799. # [21:41] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: why start from scratch instead of extending anolis or something?
  800. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> Anolis already has that
  801. # [21:42] <gsnedders> A xref system that makes sense?
  802. # [21:42] <SimonSapin> or maybe just using anolis
  803. # [21:42] <gsnedders> I'm not sure. ;P
  804. # [21:42] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: Because I already wanted to do somewhat more than Anolis wants (omit paragraphs, strip whitesapce prefixes on <pre>, etc.)
  805. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins_, hence the "extend" part ;)
  806. # [21:42] <TabAtkins_> Also: reinventing the wheel is fun?
  807. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> And what do you mean by omitting paragraphs?
  808. # [21:43] <TabAtkins_> Markdown paragraphs.
  809. # [21:43] <stearns> Tab
  810. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> Inserting <p>s where you've got \n\n?
  811. # [21:43] <stearns> Tab's pre-pre-pre-processor will add in the normative text
  812. # [21:43] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: Basically, yes, thought it's a touch smarter than that.
  813. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> Sounds a little annoying to implement on top of the python dom, but maybe I should try
  814. # [21:44] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: I'm implementing as a source-text hack right now. I haven't yet gotten to anything that I need a DOM for, though I will very soon.
  815. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> Been there :)
  816. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> I've got a source text hack here that deals with [[FOO]]
  817. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> Including a nice special case for [[SHORTNAME]]
  818. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins_, also, I believe you're inconsistent about including "Jr." in the editor lists
  819. # [21:47] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: Correct.
  820. # [22:05] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@public.cloak)
  821. # [22:09] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: do we have terms like "outside/inside layout layout mode"? Examples of the former are inline-level, block-level, table cell, flex item; examples of the latter are block container, inline content, multicol, flexbox, …
  822. # [22:10] <SimonSapin> also "replaced" for inside
  823. # [22:10] <SimonSapin> the idea being that they’re fairly orthogonal: see inline-block, replaced table cell, etc.
  824. # [22:12] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  825. # [22:13] <SimonSapin> or fantasai?
  826. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: I haven't come up with names yet, but the distinction is most of the impetus behind http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display-3/
  827. # [22:24] <SimonSapin> I’m arguing with Bert again … point being that multicol is only "inside" but used width is determined by "outside" (which can indirectly be based on min-content and max-content which, *them*, depend on "inside".)
  828. # [22:24] <TabAtkins_> Multicol is definitely an "inside" concept, and should have been a display-inside value. In a perfect world...
  829. # [22:26] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: `display-inside: block` is the same as "is a block container", right?
  830. # [22:26] <TabAtkins_> I believe so, yes.
  831. # [22:27] <SimonSapin> one issue is that multicol applies to block containers … well it applies to things that would otherwise have been block containers. But since they’re multicol they’re not block containers anymore.
  832. # [22:38] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  833. # [22:39] * Quits: isherman-book (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  834. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: maybe the word for "inside" stuff is "formatting context"?
  835. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> block formatting context, flex formatting context, …
  836. # [22:45] <ojan> TabAtkins_: in today's dose of css3-sizing questions...http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-sizing/#replaced-intrinsic points to the auto size calculation http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing-terms, which has no mention of auto size calculation
  837. # [22:45] <ojan> TabAtkins_: does it mean the Default Sizing Algorithm ?
  838. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  839. # [22:46] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: That sounds reasonable.
  840. # [22:46] <ojan> TabAtkins_: so, do moz/webkit get this case wrong then?
  841. # [22:46] <ojan> http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=%3Cstyle%3E%0A.min-width-min-content%20{%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-moz-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-ie-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-o-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-webkit-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20width%3A%2010px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20bor
  842. # [22:46] <ojan> der%3A%205px%20solid%20salmon%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%3E%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%20class%3D%22min-width-min-content%22%3E%0A
  843. # [22:46] <ojan> ack
  844. # [22:46] <ojan> i'll get a trimmed version of that...
  845. # [22:46] <ojan> http://plexode.com/u/#AVwidthATe.com2S%3C2R%3E2P%3B2O%22MNI8imJ!LKAM6!!!!ALstylerK4heightG200pxOrJages8logo.gifOrIH%3A88googlTrH6Simg!src4http6G%3A!Q9min-V28%2F26%0AE4%3DOU*-(P)Gr)M9Y(min-content2!%20~http://plexodT/eval3/#ht=SLR6.9-(!%7B)G-moz*-ie*-o*-webkit*(PMVG10pxPMborderG5px!solid!salmonP6%7D6S8LR6NRN!class49-(OR6
  846. # [22:46] <TabAtkins_> Why do you use plexode. :/
  847. # [22:46] <ojan> TabAtkins_: should the width of the second image be the same as the first?
  848. # [22:47] <ojan> TabAtkins_: i like the immediate feedback...makes for much quicker prototyping than jsfiddle
  849. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> Use Live DOM Viewer instead. Better urls, for one.
  850. # [22:47] <ojan> jsfiddle soooo slow
  851. # [22:47] <ojan> hmmm...i could try it
  852. # [22:47] <ojan> plexode makes executing JS if you need to easy
  853. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> As does DOM Viewer - just add a <script> element. ^_^
  854. # [22:48] <ojan> anyways...
  855. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> I'm looking...
  856. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> Ugh, we wrote this bit terribly.
  857. # [22:50] <ojan> yes
  858. # [22:50] <ojan> i agree :)
  859. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> I think the intention is that you invoke the algorithm without any specified sizes.
  860. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> At least, that matches both our and FF's behavior.
  861. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> So it's what we should do.
  862. # [22:53] <ojan> so, the third bullet in the default sizing algorithm?
  863. # [22:54] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  864. # [22:54] <TabAtkins_> Let me rewrite that real quick.
  865. # [22:54] <ojan> ok...that's super easy to implement at least :)
  866. # [22:58] <ojan> TabAtkins_: while i'm nagging you about this spec...contain-floats being a width value is super weird
  867. # [22:58] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Really? I think it's a good place for it.
  868. # [22:59] <ojan> seems like it should just be a completely separate css property
  869. # [22:59] <ojan> what if you want the min-width to be 200px and you want the thing to contain floats?
  870. # [22:59] <TabAtkins_> Look closer at the grammar.
  871. # [22:59] <TabAtkins_> Note the ||
  872. # [23:00] <ojan> is this in the same doc? I don't see it
  873. # [23:01] <TabAtkins_> Oh wait, we messed that one up.
  874. # [23:01] <TabAtkins_> Darn, it was supposed to be a flag in addition to the length.
  875. # [23:01] <TabAtkins_> Dammit.
  876. # [23:02] <SimonSapin> I like dabblet
  877. # [23:02] <TabAtkins_> dabblet's pretty nice, but I've avoided it for a while since hardware accelerated pages sometimes screw up on Linux Chrome.
  878. # [23:02] <TabAtkins_> But it's been months.
  879. # [23:03] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  880. # [23:04] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Fixed Sizing.
  881. # [23:05] <ojan> TabAtkins_: sgtm
  882. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: you mean Chrome screws up on such pages? :p
  883. # [23:05] * Quits: abucur (~abucur@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  884. # [23:06] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: Yes, it did!
  885. # [23:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: fails validation :/
  886. # [23:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins, tantek: Please make sure your spec validates before you ask for publication
  887. # [23:14] * tantek doesn't recall asking for publication
  888. # [23:14] <tantek> URL?
  889. # [23:16] <fantasai> tantek: sorry, it's Tab's fault
  890. # [23:18] <tantek> fantasai - FYI I haven't started putting in those new rel values yet into anything which is going to get imminently published. I plan on speccing those rel values and adding them to the registry first.
  891. # [23:19] <fantasai> tantek: cool
  892. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Heh, I'll check it out.
  893. # [23:19] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  894. # [23:20] * fantasai fixing now
  895. # [23:20] * fantasai for the TR copy
  896. # [23:20] * fantasai won't check anything in tho
  897. # [23:20] * fantasai will let you fuss with things as you want
  898. # [23:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: which is the validator that checks for broken links?
  899. # [23:21] <tantek> ?checklink
  900. # [23:21] <fantasai> http://validator.w3.org/checklink
  901. # [23:21] <tantek> or some option like that
  902. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> tantek: This is all documented on the wiki.
  903. # [23:23] <tantek> TabAtkins_: after my own heart. :)
  904. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
  905. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: should I just remove stuff about the previous last call in css3-page’s Status of this document?
  906. # [23:23] <TabAtkins_> You can thank fantasai, who wrote it all I think.
  907. # [23:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: There was just the one error in the source (about an unclosed <var>), right? And then just the rel=biblioentry crap in the generated doc?
  908. # [23:46] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@public.cloak)
  909. # [23:53] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  910. # Session Close: Thu Feb 21 00:00:00 2013

The end :)