/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 06 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  49. # [03:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-sizing/#indefinite-size
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  54. # [03:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-sizing/#max-size-contribution
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  163. # [17:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/06-css-irc
  164. # [17:16] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  165. # [17:16] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
  166. # [17:16] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  167. # [17:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  177. # [17:50] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  178. # [17:50] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  179. # [17:50] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  180. # [17:50] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  181. # [17:52] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  182. # [17:52] <glazou> florian, a bit early no?
  183. # [17:52] <florian> am I?
  184. # [17:53] <glazou> :53 now
  185. # [17:53] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  186. # [17:53] <florian> Sure, but nothing special to do until then. You made me worry that I had missed some Daylight saving time thing, and was an hour early.
  187. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Thou shalt not come early! ;)
  188. # [17:54] <glazou> florian, eh no
  189. # [17:54] <SimonSapin> florian: next week you’d be late
  190. # [17:54] <SimonSapin> (I think)
  191. # [17:55] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  192. # [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  193. # [17:56] <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
  194. # [17:56] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  195. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P7
  196. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  197. # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  198. # [17:57] <florian> Can you hear me? just got a new mike.
  199. # [17:57] * Bert yes, next week it's at 17:00 for us in France.
  200. # [17:58] <krit> florian: no
  201. # [17:58] <glazou> florian, no
  202. # [17:58] <krit> florian: just hear glazou
  203. # [17:58] <glazou> caughing, yes
  204. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aabb
  205. # [17:59] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  206. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
  207. # [17:59] <glazou> my goodness, my tomato plant now has flowers...
  208. # [17:59] * Joins: djackson (~djackson@public.cloak)
  209. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> florian, no
  210. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> Oh, I dunno
  211. # [17:59] * djackson is now known as dael
  212. # [17:59] <glazou> djackson, hi ; will you take minutes today ?
  213. # [17:59] <Zakim> - +1.610.324.aabb
  214. # [17:59] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  215. # [17:59] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  216. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Bert
  217. # [17:59] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  218. # [18:00] <dael> Hi! I'm still holding off on funding, so I'm going to listen one more time if that's okay.
  219. # [18:00] * Joins: leif (~leif@public.cloak)
  220. # [18:00] <glazou> ok dael
  221. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
  222. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aadd
  223. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P27
  224. # [18:00] <BradK> Zakim, AAC is me
  225. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'AAC'
  226. # [18:00] * Joins: florianr (~yaaic@public.cloak)
  227. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
  228. # [18:01] <dael> aadd is me
  229. # [18:01] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  230. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is BradK
  231. # [18:01] <Zakim> +BradK; got it
  232. # [18:01] <BradK> Zakim, aacc is me
  233. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
  234. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aaff
  235. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss
  236. # [18:01] <rhauck1> Zakim, aaff is me
  237. # [18:01] <Zakim> +rhauck1; got it
  238. # [18:01] * Joins: nvdbleek2 (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  239. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +93192aagg
  240. # [18:01] <BradK> Thank. Was autocorrectwd first time
  241. # [18:01] <nvdbleek2> zakim, code?
  242. # [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek2
  243. # [18:01] <florianr> Damm, computer just died on me
  244. # [18:01] <antonp> Zakim, aagg is me
  245. # [18:01] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  246. # [18:02] <dael> zakin, aadd is me
  247. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aahh
  248. # [18:02] <florianr> Trying to get back on something else than a phone
  249. # [18:02] <dael> Zakim, aadd is me
  250. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dael; got it
  251. # [18:02] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  252. # [18:02] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  253. # [18:02] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  254. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Plh
  255. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn
  256. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  257. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
  258. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears, Ms2ger, SimonSapin,
  259. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh, isherman, ed
  260. # [18:02] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~TabAtkins@public.cloak)
  261. # [18:03] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  262. # [18:03] <leif> Zakim, who is here?
  263. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
  264. # [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see smfr, TabAtkins__, plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears,
  265. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... Ms2ger, SimonSapin, alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh
  266. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  267. # [18:03] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
  268. # [18:03] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  269. # [18:03] * Joins: abucur (~abucur@public.cloak)
  270. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, aahh is leif
  271. # [18:03] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  272. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dbaron
  273. # [18:03] <TabAtkins__> I'm having my carpet cleaned right now, so it's too loud to call in. I'll follow along muted and respond in chat.
  274. # [18:03] <Zakim> +smfr
  275. # [18:03] <glazou> TabAtkins_, ROFL
  276. # [18:04] <glazou> best excuse EVER here :-)
  277. # [18:04] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0110.html'
  278. # [18:04] <BradK> Is that some sort of euphemism?
  279. # [18:04] <TabAtkins__> Yes. It's a euphemism for getting my carpet cleaned.
  280. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaii
  281. # [18:05] <TabAtkins__> zakim, aaii is me
  282. # [18:05] <Zakim> +TabAtkins__; got it
  283. # [18:05] <Bert> Scribe: Bert
  284. # [18:06] <Bert> glazou: Extra agenda: dbaron's comments on text deco.
  285. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P51
  286. # [18:06] <nvdbleek2> zakim, I am ??P51
  287. # [18:06] <Zakim> +nvdbleek2; got it
  288. # [18:06] <Bert> ... Dbaron wants more time to review, so no dicsussion about CR today.
  289. # [18:07] <nvdbleek2> zakim, mute me
  290. # [18:07] <Zakim> nvdbleek2 should now be muted
  291. # [18:07] <Bert> krit: filter effect
  292. # [18:07] <Bert> glazou: OK, 5 mins
  293. # [18:07] <Bert> SimonSapin: my issues?
  294. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  295. # [18:07] <Bert> glazou: Yes, but dirk's first
  296. # [18:08] <Bert> Topic: filter effects
  297. # [18:08] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html
  298. # [18:08] <Bert> krit: I did edits to clean up doc.
  299. # [18:08] <Bert> ... added shader section
  300. # [18:08] <Bert> ... would like new WD
  301. # [18:08] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html#FilterCSSImageValue
  302. # [18:08] <Bert> dbaron: custom shaders section?
  303. # [18:09] <Bert> krit: Yes, discussed it in SVG
  304. # [18:09] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html#custom-filter
  305. # [18:09] <Bert> ... Generic filter fx
  306. # [18:09] <Bert> ... Custom extended.
  307. # [18:09] <Bert> ... @filter with descriptors.
  308. # [18:09] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  309. # [18:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  310. # [18:09] <Bert> ... Allows to ref diff extensions
  311. # [18:09] <Bert> ... Cleaner syntax, easier.
  312. # [18:10] <Bert> dbaron: Integration of shaders in CSS is much more experimental than the rest. rather not in this draft.
  313. # [18:10] <Bert> krit: We have resolution to keep it in, from both WGs.
  314. # [18:10] <Bert> smfr: Tend to agree with dbaron
  315. # [18:11] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  316. # [18:11] <Bert> ... 'd be nice to publishe ddraft with what shipped already.
  317. # [18:11] <Bert> dbaron: I think there was not musch discussion of it in CSS.
  318. # [18:11] <Bert> glazou: decision can be changed.
  319. # [18:11] <Bert> ... Shoul dmaybe be in next level.
  320. # [18:12] <Bert> krit: We have an impl, so it is implementable.
  321. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  322. # [18:12] <Zakim> -??P27
  323. # [18:12] <Bert> dbaron: other implementers say tnot happy with security implications.
  324. # [18:12] <Bert> krit: We discussed it in Hamburg.
  325. # [18:12] <Bert> ... Issues raised so far were all addressed.
  326. # [18:12] <Bert> dbaron: How was the security addressed?
  327. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai
  328. # [18:13] <Bert> krit: In last WD we already said [...]
  329. # [18:13] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  330. # [18:13] * fantasai sorry; didn't hear alarm clock
  331. # [18:13] <Bert> dbaron: I need my colleagues to review this, can't do it myself now.
  332. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P64
  333. # [18:13] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  334. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  335. # [18:14] <Bert> glazou: So sounds we need more time.
  336. # [18:14] <Bert> ... So everybody should review. And decision is postponed.
  337. # [18:14] <Bert> dbaron: One more meta-point:
  338. # [18:14] <Bert> ... Just because I didn't formnally object, doesn't mean I'm happy with it.
  339. # [18:15] <Bert> ... Not happy that it is fine just because we discussed it.
  340. # [18:15] <Bert> [missed]
  341. # [18:15] <Bert> krit: Discuss on mlist?
  342. # [18:15] <Bert> glazou: Yes.
  343. # [18:15] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  344. # [18:16] <Bert> Topic: Timing function in reversed anim
  345. # [18:16] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0524.html
  346. # [18:16] <stearns> kris's point was not that it's fine because we discussed it, he was responding to the assertion that it has not been discussed.
  347. # [18:16] <stearns> s/kris/krit/
  348. # [18:16] <Bert> smfr: Follow-up to clarify to behavior of 'alternate'
  349. # [18:16] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  350. # [18:16] <Bert> ... Didn't read the replies.
  351. # [18:17] <Bert> dbaron: I think it wasn't about reverse, but about interrupt in th emiddle.
  352. # [18:17] <Bert> TabAtkins__: No, this particualr is about reverse.
  353. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Tantek
  354. # [18:17] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  355. # [18:17] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  356. # [18:18] <Bert> glazou: So if I understand correctly, irt is not whart we discussed, but reverses the timing function.
  357. # [18:18] * Quits: leif (~leif@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  358. # [18:18] <Bert> dbaron: E-mail says animations transitions. But transitions have no reverse.
  359. # [18:18] <Bert> glazou: The message is about anim, seeing the context of the htread.
  360. # [18:19] <Bert> smfr: Looks like implementers shgould lok at that thread.
  361. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  362. # [18:19] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  363. # [18:19] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  364. # [18:19] <Bert> glazou: Last time we discussed that reversing the function was probably better for the user.
  365. # [18:19] <Bert> dbaron: For anim, that may well be what we do. Need to check.
  366. # [18:20] <Bert> glazou: Other implementers?
  367. # [18:20] <Bert> Rossen: Not sure, but dont object.
  368. # [18:21] <Bert> glazou: waiting for msg from dbaron.
  369. # [18:21] * Joins: leif (~leif@public.cloak)
  370. # [18:21] <Bert> dbaron: I'm OK with the change.
  371. # [18:21] <Bert> glazou: OK, then we can resolve: anim reverses timing function.
  372. # [18:21] <Bert> dbaron: Mention "when..."
  373. # [18:21] <dbaron> proposal: when animation-direction reverses an animation, the timing function goes in reverse
  374. # [18:22] * Joins: marakow (~marakow@public.cloak)
  375. # [18:22] <oyvind> I believe impls agree on this, including gecko
  376. # [18:22] <dbaron> oyvind, yeah, I just checked
  377. # [18:22] <smfr> oyvind: and IE?
  378. # [18:22] <Bert> RESOLVED animations reverse timing function when animation-direction reverses a animation, the timing function goes in reverse
  379. # [18:22] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html
  380. # [18:22] <glazou> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
  381. # [18:22] <dbaron> the bouncing ball in http://dbaron.org/log/20110419-animations demonstrates it
  382. # [18:22] <oyvind> smfr: ah, don't know about that, don't have a working windows box atm
  383. # [18:23] <Bert> Topic: Matrix interface
  384. # [18:23] <Bert> krit: In SVG , there is a2D matrix interface
  385. # [18:23] <Bert> ... SVG asked me to write a 3d interface.
  386. # [18:23] <Bert> ... I used proposal from DeanJ
  387. # [18:23] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html#webidl-ref
  388. # [18:24] <Bert> ... Useful to have general matrix if for SVG and also for Canvas.
  389. # [18:24] <Bert> ... Is it OK for CSS to work on that?
  390. # [18:24] <Bert> dbaron: Where is this going to be used?
  391. # [18:25] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  392. # [18:25] <Bert> krit: We don't have API for transforms yet, indeed.
  393. # [18:25] <Bert> ... For now just a future approach. Cannot be used at th emoment.
  394. # [18:25] <dbaron> dbaron: concern about previous api proposals was that the only way they hooked into CSS was into an api we'd deprecated
  395. # [18:25] <Bert> ... Hopefull i n the futre there'll be a way in CSS
  396. # [18:25] <Bert> glazou: I reviewed the doc. Would love to use. If only I had a simple if to generate a m,atrix from a string.
  397. # [18:26] <Bert> smfr: Cannot do that in isolation. Need an element, to resolve units.
  398. # [18:26] <Bert> krit: Always coord system of the element.
  399. # [18:26] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  400. # [18:27] * Quits: florianr (~yaaic@public.cloak) ("")
  401. # [18:27] <Bert> glazou: My feeling: we start seeing new applications, handling complex matrices, complex graphics. This will be very useful for those apps.
  402. # [18:27] <Bert> smfr: Yes, we see people using the webkit matrix
  403. # [18:27] <Bert> ... Webkit has funky bahevior converting to string.
  404. # [18:27] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  405. # [18:27] <Bert> ... And convert from string, throwing away units.
  406. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  407. # [18:27] <Bert> ... Not quite corretc, but often good enough.
  408. # [18:28] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  409. # [18:28] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  410. # [18:28] <Bert> glazou: Handle this in FXTF?
  411. # [18:28] <Bert> krit: Yes, that's the plan.
  412. # [18:28] * florian woohoo, computer boots again
  413. # [18:28] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  414. # [18:28] <Bert> smfr: We shoudl address how matrix interacts with style property.
  415. # [18:28] <Bert> glazou: Only an ED at this time.
  416. # [18:28] <Bert> ... We have time.
  417. # [18:29] <Bert> krit: Again, also for SVG.
  418. # [18:29] <Bert> glazou: Objections?
  419. # [18:29] * Joins: leif1 (~leif@public.cloak)
  420. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> (TabAtkins_: are there Syntax issues to discuss on the call?)
  421. # [18:29] <hober> Zakim, aaee is me
  422. # [18:29] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  423. # [18:30] <Bert> RESOLVED: krit can continue writing on matrix API in FXTF
  424. # [18:30] <Bert> Topic: Syntax issues
  425. # [18:30] <Bert> SimonSapin: A few issues alrwady addressed.
  426. # [18:30] <Bert> ... Some are only editorial.
  427. # [18:30] <Bert> glazou: If we don't need time now, we can talk about page instead?
  428. # [18:30] <Bert> Topic: Paged media issues
  429. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> I think we have consensus on this one now, just need a resolution:
  430. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> Making z-index not optional on page-margin boxes
  431. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0652.html
  432. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0008.html
  433. # [18:31] <Bert> SimonSapin: Last week we discussed it.
  434. # [18:31] <glenn> need to depart
  435. # [18:31] <Bert> glazou: I'm fine with it.
  436. # [18:31] * Quits: leif (~leif@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  437. # [18:31] <Zakim> -glenn
  438. # [18:32] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  439. # [18:32] <Bert> SimonSapin: proposal is to make z-index not optionl on margin boxes.
  440. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0653.html
  441. # [18:32] <Bert> RESOLVED: z-index is *not* optional on margin boxes.
  442. # [18:32] <Bert> SimonSapin: Defautl stacking order of margin boxes currently udnefiend.
  443. # [18:32] <Bert> ... I can jst pick something
  444. # [18:32] <Bert> glazou: I'm fine with that.
  445. # [18:33] <Bert> SimonSapin: I proposd start from top left and go clockwise.
  446. # [18:33] <Bert> tab: Fine with any order.
  447. # [18:33] <Bert> Bert: +1
  448. # [18:33] <florian> I am fine with this
  449. # [18:33] <Bert> Anton: +1
  450. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0054.html
  451. # [18:33] <Bert> RESOLVED: default stacking starts with top lect corner and goes clockwise.
  452. # [18:35] <stearns> one stacking context per margin box or one single stacking context for all of them?
  453. # [18:35] <Bert> SimonSapin: stacking context is considered atomic, so not other pieces and go in between.
  454. # [18:35] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  455. # [18:35] <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, BradK, dael, hober, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, leif, Plh, koji, dbaron, smfr, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2 (muted), [Microsoft], fantasai,
  456. # [18:35] <Zakim> ... ??P64, Tantek (muted), [Microsoft.a], [IPcaller], SimonSapin
  457. # [18:35] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  458. # [18:35] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  459. # [18:35] <Bert> Bert: Are there any cases where you micgh want to insert in betwen?
  460. # [18:35] <Bert> SimonSapin: I don't think so. Also implementation is easier.
  461. # [18:36] <stearns> +1 from me
  462. # [18:36] <Bert> Bert: no objection
  463. # [18:36] <Bert> glazou: same
  464. # [18:36] <Bert> RESOLVED: margin box establishes a stacking context.
  465. # [18:37] <Bert> antonp: margin biox can have bg?
  466. # [18:37] <Bert> ... So bg can obscure another box.
  467. # [18:37] <Bert> SimonSapin: Yes
  468. # [18:37] <Bert> glazou: That's why you have s-index to fix that.
  469. # [18:37] <Bert> antonp: Is bag likely to occur?
  470. # [18:37] <Bert> SimonSapin: Most of the time boxes will not overlap.
  471. # [18:38] <Bert> ... Can't think of a use case for overlap.
  472. # [18:38] <Bert> glazou: Agree
  473. # [18:38] <Bert> SimonSapin: Issue about @page rules and media queries, but not enough time now.
  474. # [18:38] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0352.html
  475. # [18:38] <Bert> Topic: Format() in images
  476. # [18:39] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Somebody requested image() to have not only fallback, but also info about type.
  477. # [18:39] <Bert> ... Right now, UA has to download each image.
  478. # [18:39] <Bert> ... Seems it can be solved similar to @font-face.
  479. # [18:39] <antonp> s/bag/overlap (several lines above)
  480. # [18:39] <Zakim> -rhauck1
  481. # [18:39] <Bert> ... But how exaxtly? MIME type seems not enough.
  482. # [18:40] <Bert> ... E.g., PNG has variants with and without anim, not rteflected in MIME type.
  483. # [18:40] <Bert> ... Thread conculded that MIME type was good start, and then add CSS-defiend keywords
  484. # [18:40] <Bert> ... So keywords for transparency support and animation support.
  485. # [18:41] <Bert> ... I want to add this to level 4.
  486. # [18:41] <Bert> dbaron: A little worried about complexity.
  487. # [18:41] <Bert> ... But OK with adding it for now.
  488. # [18:41] <dbaron> dbaron: Seems like some of these things should be registered as mime-type parameters if they're important.
  489. # [18:41] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Transitioning to new features from MIEM types can be added later.
  490. # [18:42] <Bert> ... Not difficult
  491. # [18:42] <Bert> glazou: Who maintains the list of values?
  492. # [18:42] <tantek> on the csswg wiki!
  493. # [18:42] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Not sure. Who: Could be us. Where: a spec, or somehwre else?
  494. # [18:42] <tantek> only have :) - w3.org/wiki/CSS is probably better
  495. # [18:42] <glazou> tantek, non normative unfortunately
  496. # [18:42] <Bert> ... Something to point to is fine too.
  497. # [18:43] <Bert> ... Whatever othe rpeople think is reasonable.
  498. # [18:43] <tantek> glazou - just need a normative spec that declares it a particular wiki URL to be normative
  499. # [18:43] <tantek> we've already done this in HTML5
  500. # [18:43] <Bert> ... Only fine with trying to turn some of the new values into MIME parameters.
  501. # [18:43] <tantek> which normatively references the microformats wiki page for existing rel values for the normative set of rel values :)
  502. # [18:43] <Bert> glazou: Afraid of confrontation with IETF.
  503. # [18:43] <tantek> LOL
  504. # [18:43] <plh> q+
  505. # [18:43] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  506. # [18:44] <tantek> seriously, just put it on the W3C wiki - IETF is too slow.
  507. # [18:44] <glazou> Zakim, ack plh
  508. # [18:44] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  509. # [18:44] <tantek> HTMLWG gave up on IETF for rel values for this reason.
  510. # [18:44] <Bert> plh: I happen to be IETF liaison
  511. # [18:44] <Bert> ... Happy to help the CSS WG.
  512. # [18:44] <Bert> ... If previous interactions with IETF were not great, I can try to help with that, too.
  513. # [18:45] <Bert> TabAtkins__: MIME type registration is horrible experience.
  514. # [18:45] <tantek> tabatkins: "everyone I've ever talked to who's tried to register a mimetype with the IETF has had a horrible time"
  515. # [18:45] <Bert> plh: Improvements have been made. On W3C side we also need to do so,mething.
  516. # [18:45] <Bert> glazou: plh, would you take the idea to the IETYF that we start with a registry ourselves?
  517. # [18:46] <glazou> s/IETYF/IETF
  518. # [18:46] <Bert> plh: getting MIEM type is easy, just a bit of admin work. Most of that is my time.
  519. # [18:46] <Bert> ... Takes about two month to get registrerd.
  520. # [18:46] <Bert> glazou: OK, let's revised after we tried that.
  521. # [18:47] <Bert> ACTION tab: with plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF.
  522. # [18:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  523. # [18:47] * RRSAgent records action 1
  524. # [18:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-548 - With plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-03-13].
  525. # [18:47] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0248.html
  526. # [18:48] <Bert> Topic: 'bikeshedding"
  527. # [18:48] <tantek> LOL!
  528. # [18:48] <Bert> fantasai: We'd like to get particpation on naming issues.
  529. # [18:48] <Bert> ... Othe rpeople have better ideas than us.
  530. # [18:48] <tantek> I'd suggest writing a blog post for each time you want input on naming
  531. # [18:48] <Bert> ... But hose peoplke unlikely to join www-style.
  532. # [18:48] <tantek> rather than a mailing list
  533. # [18:49] <Bert> ... Another mailinglist may help.
  534. # [18:49] * plh guesses that rand() was already rejected as a solution to generate names
  535. # [18:49] <tantek> seriously, the creation of this mailing list will be the laughing stock of the W3C
  536. # [18:49] * stearns suggests reddit.com/r/css-bikeshedding
  537. # [18:49] <Bert> glazou: Sme people racted, and were opposed.
  538. # [18:49] <Bert> ... I don't think it is a good signal to users.
  539. # [18:49] <BradK> Naming should be done by those most familiar with the topics discussed: those following the www-style list.
  540. # [18:49] <Bert> ... It is not disconnected from the tech work.
  541. # [18:49] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Idea is that it would be lower traffic.
  542. # [18:50] <tantek> I think such a new mailing list is a bad idea unless the idea is to embarrass the W3C.
  543. # [18:50] <Bert> ... If it turns out as high traffic as www-style, that would be a pb.
  544. # [18:50] * smfr thinks this is what twitter is for
  545. # [18:50] * fantasai hasn't found twitter to be particularly useful for this :(
  546. # [18:50] <Bert> glazou: I suggest that people change the subject line to include [naming] as soon as the topic turns to naming.
  547. # [18:50] <Bert> ... Im'm afraid a new mlist would be a very highg traffic one.
  548. # [18:51] <Bert> ... I see no concensus at the moment.
  549. # [18:51] <Bert> TabAtkins__: OK
  550. # [18:51] <tantek> fantasai - if Twitter doesn't work for this, write CSSWG blog posts for this.
  551. # [18:51] <Bert> glazou: tantek menbtioned blog. Maybe we can blog about naming policy.
  552. # [18:52] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Idea to be able to subscribe to certain tags on the mailing list.
  553. # [18:53] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  554. # [18:53] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0095.html
  555. # [18:53] <Bert> ACTION bert: to ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible
  556. # [18:53] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  557. # [18:53] * RRSAgent records action 2
  558. # [18:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-549 - Ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible [on Bert Bos - due 2013-03-13].
  559. # [18:53] <Bert> Topic: display: none
  560. # [18:53] <glazou> oooooooold issue :-)
  561. # [18:54] <glazou> neeeeeeeever discussed :-)
  562. # [18:54] <Bert> TabAtkins__: jquery has show & hide methods, but they need to store the previous display value on hide, to be able to restore it.
  563. # [18:54] <Bert> ... But if it starts out hidden, you have nbo previous state.
  564. # [18:54] <Bert> ... The HIDDEN attrib in HTML is anbother issue:
  565. # [18:55] <Bert> ... You can put the CSS rule in UA style or user style
  566. # [18:55] <Bert> ... At important level or not.
  567. # [18:55] <Bert> ... But interferes with transitions.
  568. # [18:55] <Bert> ... My display draft splits display.
  569. # [18:56] * glazou thinks we are going bikeshed :-)
  570. # [18:56] <Bert> ... It adds a third property to set to hidden independetly.
  571. # [18:56] <Bert> ... The 'display' shorthand will still override it, so that doens't work.
  572. # [18:57] <Bert> ... So it needs to be an indep property, not part of the display shorthand.
  573. # [18:57] <Bert> ... And what shoul dbe its values?
  574. # [18:57] <florian> the proposal for "render" made sense to me
  575. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> +1 for render
  576. # [18:57] <Bert> ... We're thinking of more values in the future, such as 'content'
  577. # [18:58] <glazou> +1 for render too but that's not the major thing ehre
  578. # [18:58] <glazou> here
  579. # [18:58] <Bert> ... We don't know what to call the property.
  580. # [18:58] <Bert> ... the ideas so far don't appeal to me.
  581. # [18:58] <stearns> I like 'render'
  582. # [18:58] <Bert> antonp: The interestimng thing is to pull it out of 'display'
  583. # [18:59] <Bert> TabAtkins__: 'display: none' still suppresses th box if 'xyx' is 'normal'
  584. # [18:59] <Bert> antonp: I'm interested in if this happens elsewhere, such as for font shorthand. What is the difference?
  585. # [19:00] <Bert> TabAtkins__: Thist is a brand new longhand, so will take a while to get picked up.
  586. # [19:00] <Bert> ... But display: none does a fundamentally differnet thing.
  587. # [19:00] * florian tab seems not to have seen the proposal for render. My mike doesn't work. Could someone who has a working audio system mention it?
  588. # [19:01] <Bert> ... "Flexness" of a box is indep from whether it is currently displayed.
  589. # [19:01] <Zakim> -krit
  590. # [19:01] <glazou> florian, not main issue, mail him please
  591. # [19:01] <Bert> ... Especially useful with HTML HIDDEN attribute.
  592. # [19:01] * florian glazou: ok
  593. # [19:01] <glazou> thanks florian
  594. # [19:02] * krit sorry for leaving, was kicked out of the room.
  595. # [19:02] <Bert> antonp: Backwards compat story. Interesting point.
  596. # [19:02] <fantasai> generate-box
  597. # [19:02] <Bert> SimonSapin: Florian mentions a proposal to call it 'render'
  598. # [19:02] <florian> As for the proposal itself, I am in favor of it
  599. # [19:02] <Bert> glazou: Name is not the main issue now.
  600. # [19:02] <BradK> Opacity:0; pointer-events:none; would have the same effect, wouldn't it?
  601. # [19:03] <Bert> SimonSapin: Paged media and viewport issue was defferred, but please contrinbute on the mlist. I need reactions.
  602. # [19:03] * Quits: nvdbleek2 (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek2)
  603. # [19:03] <Bert> fantasai: I much time do people need to review text deco issues?
  604. # [19:03] <Bert> dbaron: Next week is fine.
  605. # [19:04] <Bert> ... The current request was just too late for me.
  606. # [19:04] <florian> Simon, I agree with the general direction of your proposals. Will try to look into the details
  607. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Plh
  608. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Tantek
  609. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Stearns
  610. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  611. # [19:04] <Zakim> -BradK
  612. # [19:04] <Zakim> -hober
  613. # [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  614. # [19:04] <Zakim> -dbaron
  615. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins__
  616. # [19:04] <Zakim> -dael
  617. # [19:04] <Zakim> -antonp
  618. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  619. # [19:04] <Zakim> -koji
  620. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  621. # [19:04] * Quits: dael (~djackson@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  622. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  623. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  624. # [19:04] <Zakim> -leif
  625. # [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  626. # [19:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
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  628. # [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
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  632. # [19:05] <Zakim> -??P64
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  636. # [19:10] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, nvdbleek2, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  637. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  638. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were florian, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, +1.610.324.aabb, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, +1.650.766.aacc, +1.610.324.aadd, +1.619.846.aaee, BradK, +1.415.615.aaff,
  639. # [19:10] <Zakim> ... plinss, rhauck1, +93192aagg, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, dael, Plh, glenn, koji, leif, dbaron, smfr, +1.832.797.aaii, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2, fantasai, Rossen, Tantek, [Microsoft],
  640. # [19:10] <Zakim> ... arronei, hober
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  693. # Session Close: Thu Mar 07 00:00:01 2013

The end :)