/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-03-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 20 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  80. # [16:29] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc
  81. # [16:29] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  82. # [16:29] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
  83. # [16:29] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  84. # [16:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  86. # [16:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  87. # [16:52] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
  88. # [16:52] <@plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  89. # [16:52] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  90. # [16:53] <Zakim> +??P10
  91. # [16:53] <glazou> Zakim, ??P10 is me
  92. # [16:53] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  93. # [16:53] <Zakim> +rhauck
  94. # [16:53] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  95. # [16:54] <krit> Zakim, who is on the phone
  96. # [16:54] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', krit
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  99. # [16:54] <krit> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  100. # [16:54] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, rhauck
  101. # [16:54] <glazou> ah!
  102. # [16:54] <krit> Zakim, rhauck is me
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  104. # [16:54] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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  107. # [16:55] <Zakim> +djackson
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  110. # [16:56] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aabb
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  112. # [16:56] <nvdbleek2> zakim, code?
  113. # [16:56] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek2
  114. # [16:56] <Zakim> +antonp
  115. # [16:56] <Zakim> +smfr
  116. # [16:56] <@plinss> zakim, aabb is hober
  117. # [16:56] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  118. # [16:56] <Zakim> +fantasai
  119. # [16:56] <Zakim> +Stearns
  120. # [16:56] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  121. # [16:57] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  122. # [16:57] * leif has VoIP problems, will follow on IRC.
  123. # [16:57] <glazou> ok leif
  124. # [16:58] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  125. # [16:58] <Zakim> +Bert
  126. # [16:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  127. # [16:58] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  128. # [16:58] * nvdbleek2 can somebody unblock my original irc handle (nvdbleek) I'm using a different irc client and hope/think it isn't leaving/rejoining constantly?
  129. # [16:59] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  130. # [16:59] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, glazou, krit, djackson, glenn, hober, antonp, smfr, fantasai, Stearns, nvdbleek, Bert, SimonSapin
  131. # [16:59] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  132. # [16:59] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  133. # [16:59] <Zakim> +Plh
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  136. # [16:59] <SimonSapin> oh, we can have Zakim call us?
  137. # [16:59] <@plinss> I think that's just for w3c staff
  138. # [16:59] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  139. # [16:59] * nvdbleek2 only w3c staff
  140. # [16:59] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0336.html'
  141. # [17:00] <Zakim> +??P35
  142. # [17:00] <nvdbleek2> zakim, mute me
  143. # [17:00] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
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  145. # [17:01] <arronei> regrets, only on IRC today
  146. # [17:01] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
  147. # [17:01] <antonp> TOPIC: additions to agenda
  148. # [17:02] <antonp> plinss: no additions
  149. # [17:02] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aacc
  150. # [17:02] <antonp> TOPIC: Viewport units in paged media
  151. # [17:02] <antonp> SimonSapin: complicated, no solution yet
  152. # [17:02] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~TabAtkins@public.cloak)
  153. # [17:03] <antonp> ... make undefined in values, noting that it's expected to be defined in css3-page
  154. # [17:03] <antonp> s/values/css3-values/
  155. # [17:03] <antonp> TabAtkins_: ok
  156. # [17:03] <Zakim> - +1.832.797.aacc
  157. # [17:03] <glazou> glazou, ok
  158. # [17:03] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  159. # [17:04] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aadd
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  161. # [17:04] <antonp> fantasai: are we making both ?? and ?? undefined?
  162. # [17:04] <antonp> SimonSapin: both
  163. # [17:04] <TabAtkins__> zakim, aadd is me
  164. # [17:04] <Zakim> +TabAtkins__; got it
  165. # [17:04] <Zakim> +Tantek
  166. # [17:04] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  167. # [17:04] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  168. # [17:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  169. # [17:04] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
  170. # [17:04] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  171. # [17:04] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  172. # [17:04] <Zakim> -hober
  173. # [17:04] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
  174. # [17:04] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  175. # [17:05] <fantasai> s/?? and ??/viewport units used in the document and viewport units used on @page/
  176. # [17:05] * antonp thanks fantasai ;-)
  177. # [17:05] <antonp> fantasai: if we'll figure it out in the next couple of weeks, shouldn't we wait?
  178. # [17:06] <antonp> plinss: How about: instead of saying they're undefined in values, say explicitly that they /will/ be defined in css3-page
  179. # [17:06] * Quits: shanestephens (~shanestephens@public.cloak) (shanestephens)
  180. # [17:06] <antonp> fantasai: how about: it's defined one way if you support css21 page stuff, otherwise ??
  181. # [17:07] <antonp> SimonSapin: uncomfortable with values saying it's based on the first page; not sure that will be true
  182. # [17:07] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I agree
  183. # [17:07] <antonp> plinss: <wants to avoid confusion>
  184. # [17:08] * @leaverou Zakim, code?
  185. # [17:08] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, leaverou
  186. # [17:08] <antonp> ??: By undefined, remove definition or explicitly state it as undefined
  187. # [17:08] <antonp> TabAtkins__: both
  188. # [17:08] <@plinss> s/??/rossen/
  189. # [17:08] <Zakim> +Lea
  190. # [17:08] <antonp> SimonSapin: new values module will state that viewport units are based on ICB in continuous media, and undefined in css3-page
  191. # [17:09] <antonp> RESOLVED: <SimonSapin types it below>
  192. # [17:10] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  193. # [17:10] * fantasai thinks it's still based on ICB or else we're failing something here, it's just a question of which ICB ;)
  194. # [17:10] * fantasai since Paged Media has several
  195. # [17:10] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: css3-values to say: viewport units in continuous media are based on the ICB, in paged media undefined (expected to be defined in css3-page)
  196. # [17:10] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  197. # [17:11] <antonp> TOPIC: Update form PLH on IETF liaison
  198. # [17:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  199. # [17:11] <antonp> plh: no update yet
  200. # [17:11] <Zakim> -??P35
  201. # [17:11] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
  202. # [17:11] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  203. # [17:11] <antonp> TOPIC: Renaming :matches()
  204. # [17:11] <tantek> sounds reasonable
  205. # [17:12] <smfr> url?
  206. # [17:12] <antonp> TabAtkins__: original name was 'any()'; we changed it for various reasons
  207. # [17:12] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0275.html
  208. # [17:12] <antonp> Brian K pointed out that if we want to extend matches, the name doesn't fit in well with that
  209. # [17:12] <antonp> ...I agree with his argument, and I liked 'any'
  210. # [17:12] <fantasai> s/matches/matches and not to express logical combinators/
  211. # [17:13] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  212. # [17:13] * tantek likes :any
  213. # [17:13] * stearns prefers any-of
  214. # [17:13] <antonp> SimonSapin: I like 'any'
  215. # [17:13] <tantek> or any-of
  216. # [17:13] <antonp> ... but what were the reasons for changing
  217. # [17:13] <fantasai> It doesn't make much sense if there is only one argument.
  218. # [17:13] * Joins: jdovey (~jim@public.cloak)
  219. # [17:13] <antonp> TabAtkins__: it'll take too long to elaborate!
  220. # [17:13] <@Bert> (I don't understand any(), it's whether an element has a certain descendamnt, isnt it? so matches() is fine, or has() )
  221. # [17:14] <Zakim> +BradK
  222. # [17:14] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  223. # [17:14] <antonp> fantasai: originally the opposite of 'not' which only takes one argument
  224. # [17:14] <Zakim> + +1.905.607.aaee
  225. # [17:14] <jdovey> zakim, aaee is me
  226. # [17:14] <Zakim> +jdovey; got it
  227. # [17:14] <antonp> fantasai gives examples
  228. # [17:15] <antonp> fantasai: I think any doesn't make sense when there's only one argument inside it, whereas matches does.
  229. # [17:16] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I'm comfortable with that argument
  230. # [17:16] <antonp> SimonSapin: I agree with that argument too
  231. # [17:16] <antonp> TabAtkins__: common case will be multi-argument, so not sure of relevance tho
  232. # [17:16] <antonp> glazou: lots of docs on the web already describes 'matches'
  233. # [17:17] <antonp> ... I don't think 'any' is best choice, even though 'matches' isn't perfect
  234. # [17:17] <tantek> but aren't there more documents that actually use :any(-of) ?
  235. # [17:17] <tantek> documents trump documentation right?
  236. # [17:17] <antonp> TabAtkins__: doc exists for 'any' as well though
  237. # [17:17] * fantasai is ok with either name, as long as we've considered this and agree its better in all cases
  238. # [17:17] <tantek> seems like an easy opportunity to agree with web authors
  239. # [17:17] * fantasai or at least better on balance
  240. # [17:17] <antonp> glazou: matches with a group of selectors means you match against any of the selectors
  241. # [17:18] <tantek> if we can go either way (can live with), then why not go with what web developers are asking for?
  242. # [17:18] <tantek> (which seems to be :any)
  243. # [17:18] <antonp> ... so don't think that 'any' gains us something semantic that was missing
  244. # [17:18] <glazou> tantek, speak up!
  245. # [17:18] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
  246. # [17:18] <Zakim> Tantek should no longer be muted
  247. # [17:19] <antonp> tantek: people don't have strong opinions. Web Devs lean towards 'any' or 'any-of'(?). Let's listen to that feedback since we are on the fence
  248. # [17:19] <@Bert> So selector1:matches(selector2) is an element that matches both selector1 and selector2? Then it is maybe an :and()...
  249. # [17:20] <@leaverou> Bert: the most common case is when you have multiple arguments and it works as OR
  250. # [17:20] <antonp> fantasai: if we present it to the webdev community, we should use the single-argument case as an example
  251. # [17:20] <antonp> tantek: we should indicate the two leading options: any, and any-of
  252. # [17:21] <antonp> fantasai: I'll send an e-mail
  253. # [17:21] <@Bert> A:matches(B, C) = an element that matches (A and B) or (A and C). Hmm, that is not an easy logical primitive...
  254. # [17:21] <antonp> tantek: and we can reassess next week
  255. # [17:21] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  256. # [17:21] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  257. # [17:21] <antonp> TOPIC: Reissue css3-values CR?
  258. # [17:21] <@leaverou> Bert: more like A && (B || C)
  259. # [17:22] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  260. # [17:22] <antonp> TabAtkins__: Editors are not aware of any new issues beyond the one that someone brought up today; let us know very soon if there are any!
  261. # [17:22] <fantasai> Bert: It's A:matches(S) where S is a selector
  262. # [17:22] <antonp> TOPIC: css-text-decorations to CR?
  263. # [17:22] <SimonSapin> Bert, the comma is OR, joining simple selectors without whitespace or separator is AND, :matches is just grouping
  264. # [17:22] <fantasai> Bert: Similarly a:not(S)
  265. # [17:22] <@Bert> A:matches(B, C) == A:matches(B), A:matches(C)
  266. # [17:23] <fantasai> Bert: The comma is part of the selector
  267. # [17:23] <fantasai> Bert: it means whatever it usually means
  268. # [17:23] * @Bert sorry, we should talk about th enext topic :-)
  269. # [17:23] <antonp> fantasai: i18n had things they wanted to discuss; wait to see if they're ok. They had no call last week
  270. # [17:24] <antonp> TabAtkins__: So wait for their approval?
  271. # [17:24] <antonp> fantasai: yeah, or else go to CR and tweak it based on their feedback - given that the call takes a month to schedule it seems ;-)
  272. # [17:24] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013
  273. # [17:24] <antonp> Bert: I couldn't find the document; link led to 404
  274. # [17:24] <antonp> <confusion about URLs>
  275. # [17:25] <antonp> fantasai: dbaron has an issue he wanted to talk about
  276. # [17:25] <antonp> glazou: Issue 6?
  277. # [17:25] <antonp> TabAtkins__: wait for i18n and dbaron
  278. # [17:25] <antonp> TOPIC: Shadow DOM
  279. # [17:25] <antonp> glazou: spec starts being used by lots of other specs in and out of our WG, as a way to specify widgets etc
  280. # [17:26] <glazou> @host + CSS bits
  281. # [17:26] <antonp> glazou: we need to evaluate that stuff
  282. # [17:26] <antonp> ..: TabAtkins__ what is ETA, implementation report, rec track etc
  283. # [17:27] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I'm directly involved but not necessarily the right person
  284. # [17:27] <antonp> ...: I e-mailed the WG last Nov about shadow dom
  285. # [17:27] <Zakim> -glenn
  286. # [17:27] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0283.html
  287. # [17:28] <antonp> ... first: the @host rule. Stylesheets inside a web component inside shadow dom are scoped to that shadow dom; can think about it as a separate context
  288. # [17:28] <antonp> Stylesheets inside and outside cannot cross the boundary
  289. # [17:28] <Zakim> +glenn
  290. # [17:28] <antonp> ... C1ommon to want
  291. # [17:28] * plinss sets mode: -b nvdbleek!*@*
  292. # [17:28] <antonp> .. to style the shadow dom differently in certain situation
  293. # [17:28] <antonp> @host allows to relax constraint
  294. # [17:28] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  295. # [17:29] <glazou> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
  296. # [17:29] <antonp> ... we were considering @global which takes a scoped stylesheet and relaxes it
  297. # [17:29] <antonp> ... shadow dom allows you take elements from the DOM and distribute them ??
  298. # [17:30] <antonp> < TabAtkins__ gives example >
  299. # [17:30] <antonp> ... we introduced a ::distributed pseudo-element ... distributed to a distribution point ...
  300. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> ACTION on me: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
  301. # [17:31] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  302. # [17:31] <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  303. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> ACTION me: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
  304. # [17:31] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  305. # [17:31] <trackbot> Error finding 'me'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  306. # [17:31] * RRSAgent records action 1
  307. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> ACTION SimonSapin: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
  308. # [17:31] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  309. # [17:31] * RRSAgent records action 2
  310. # [17:31] <trackbot> Error finding 'SimonSapin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  311. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> oh well
  312. # [17:31] <antonp> ... we added ::shadow which works in the opposite way from ::distributed
  313. # [17:31] <fantasai> ACTION Sapin: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations
  314. # [17:31] * RRSAgent records action 3
  315. # [17:31] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  316. # [17:31] <trackbot> Created ACTION-550 - Ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations [on Simon Sapin - due 2013-03-27].
  317. # [17:32] <SimonSapin> thanks fantasai
  318. # [17:32] <antonp> glazou: your pseudo-element makes sense, similar to ?? in Mozilla
  319. # [17:32] <antonp> .. @host selects element in shadow host, but you cannot write a rule whose selectors are matching elements in the shadow host and shadow dom?
  320. # [17:32] <antonp> TabAtkins__: yes you can
  321. # [17:32] <antonp> glazou: ok, that's more powerful than the Mozilla pseudo
  322. # [17:33] <glazou> s/??/-moz-bound-element
  323. # [17:33] <antonp> glazou: the whole thing makes sense now! Much better
  324. # [17:33] <antonp> glazou: Should these bits remain in that doc, or should that shadow-dom be joint work between webapps and us?
  325. # [17:33] <antonp> TabAtkins__: it's unofficially joint already
  326. # [17:34] <antonp> ...: I don't mind either way
  327. # [17:34] <plh> q+
  328. # [17:34] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  329. # [17:34] * fantasai doesn't think TabAtkins working on something makes it joint with CSS, just makes it joint with Tab ;)
  330. # [17:34] <antonp> glazou: Members: is it ok to invest time in this in the group, if it's not in the charter?
  331. # [17:34] <@plinss> ack next
  332. # [17:34] * Zakim sees plh at the head of the speaker queue
  333. # [17:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  334. # [17:35] <antonp> plh: The good thing about one single spec is that it's easier to assimilate
  335. # [17:35] <antonp> plh: will be a joint effort between webapps, us and HTML
  336. # [17:35] <antonp> TabAtkins__: doing it joint won't be a big effort
  337. # [17:36] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I'm not currently acting as an informal co-editor
  338. # [17:36] <glenn> glenn: maybe we could propose a co-editor from CSSWG to contribute (eyeballs, etc)
  339. # [17:36] <antonp> glazou: Would dimitri be prepared to join our WG for purposes of formally making the spec joint?
  340. # [17:37] <antonp> plh: Best to use TabAtkins__ ?
  341. # [17:37] <antonp> glazou: OK
  342. # [17:37] <antonp> glazou: @host with new pseudo relies on the fact that in the new grammar the pseudo doesn't need to be in last position
  343. # [17:37] <antonp> TabAtkins__: actually, no. Not relevant
  344. # [17:37] <antonp> ...: do you have an example?
  345. # [17:37] <plh> q+
  346. # [17:37] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  347. # [17:38] <antonp> ??: boundary of light and dark CSS; if the light css defines a ?? style, can the dark css refer to it?
  348. # [17:38] <antonp> TabAtkins__: yes
  349. # [17:38] * plh thinks that was Alan
  350. # [17:38] <glazou> s/??/stearns
  351. # [17:38] <antonp> SimonSapin: scope is only about selectors?
  352. # [17:38] <antonp> TabAtkins__: yes
  353. # [17:38] <glazou> ack plh
  354. # [17:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  355. # [17:38] <glazou> q+
  356. # [17:38] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
  357. # [17:39] <glazou> q-
  358. # [17:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  359. # [17:39] <stearns> s/?? style/counter style/
  360. # [17:39] <antonp> plh: link to that draft from css4-selectors draft? Should all selectors be listed in one doc?
  361. # [17:39] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I think it's reasonable to have a link. c.f. values and units
  362. # [17:39] * fantasai notes that Selectors 4 does not define pseudo elements.
  363. # [17:39] <antonp> TabAtkins__: plh, glazou : all agree
  364. # [17:40] * plh oh, so which spec defines pseudo elements?
  365. # [17:40] * plh if any
  366. # [17:40] <antonp> ACTION: TabAtkins__ to ping the WG whenever Dimitri finishes the edits related to CSS
  367. # [17:40] * RRSAgent records action 4
  368. # [17:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  369. # [17:40] <trackbot> Error finding 'TabAtkins__'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  370. # [17:40] <SimonSapin> so, should Selectors 4 also link to css4-pseudos, css3-ui, and anything that adds selectors?
  371. # [17:41] <antonp> ??: select a custom component based on a media query?
  372. # [17:41] <fantasai> SimonSapin, informatively, probably would be a good idea
  373. # [17:41] <fantasai> s/??/Alan
  374. # [17:41] <SimonSapin> fantasai, yes, informatively
  375. # [17:41] <antonp> TabAtkins__: we don't have anything for that. Can do it right now using JS version of the API. There's nothing declarative right now
  376. # [17:41] <glazou> fantasai, SimonSapin : agreed
  377. # [17:42] <antonp> Alan: in the compoonent itself, the dark css could have a mq ...
  378. # [17:42] <antonp> <Alan and TabAtkins__ discuss>
  379. # [17:42] <antonp> glazou: @host - contains only style rules right now. Why not nested @-rules?
  380. # [17:43] <antonp> TabAtkins__: spec currently has old version of @host. Only allows compound selectors
  381. # [17:43] <antonp> ...: grammar production will be similar to stuff defined in conditionals, will allow arbitrary nesting
  382. # [17:43] <antonp> TOPIC: Grid Layout
  383. # [17:44] <antonp> plinss: publish WD?
  384. # [17:44] <antonp> TabAtkins__: we've switched over grid positioning properties into line-based properties. We think it's complete enough to be a WD
  385. # [17:44] <stearns> +1 to publish
  386. # [17:44] <antonp> fantasai: to avoid confusion, let's go through a couple of the issues
  387. # [17:45] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0182.html
  388. # [17:45] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0184.html
  389. # [17:45] <antonp> <TabAtkins__ explains the issue - see pasted URL>
  390. # [17:46] <antonp> <TabAtkins__ describes potentially confusing syntax>
  391. # [17:46] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  392. # [17:46] <antonp> glazou: I like the proposal
  393. # [17:46] <SteveZ> +1
  394. # [17:46] <antonp> TabAtkins__: matches programming languages such as Python
  395. # [17:47] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0266.html
  396. # [17:47] <antonp> plinss: -1 means last line?
  397. # [17:47] <antonp> TabAtkins__: correct.
  398. # [17:47] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  399. # [17:47] <fantasai> (this is issues 1 / 2 in that list)
  400. # [17:47] <antonp> Bert: what happened to ??-area property?
  401. # [17:47] <antonp> TabAtkins__: it's still there
  402. # [17:47] <antonp> plinss: still some discrepancy about conflating line names and area names, but I see that's flagged as an issue
  403. # [17:48] <@Bert> s/??-area/grid-area/
  404. # [17:48] <antonp> fantasai: Can we deal with ordering issue?
  405. # [17:48] <Zakim> -krit
  406. # [17:48] <antonp> plinss: [...]
  407. # [17:49] <antonp> TabAtkins__: it may still affect z-index, but otherwise yes.
  408. # [17:49] <antonp> RESOLVED:
  409. # [17:49] <antonp> Have order affect auto-placement and z-index in grid, just as it does in flexbox]
  410. # [17:50] <antonp> RESOLVED:
  411. # [17:50] <TabAtkins__> RESOLVED: line numbers always count from the before/start edge, negative numbers count from the end/after edge.
  412. # [17:50] <antonp> TabAtkins__: I wanted to point people to the abspos section of the spec; it looked like it was easy to get abspos to be useful
  413. # [17:51] <antonp> ...: please review
  414. # [17:51] <antonp> plinss: what about left/right/top/bottom?
  415. # [17:51] <antonp> TabAtkins__: they respond to the containing block
  416. # [17:52] <antonp> rossen: Can we have a week to go through issues and give feedback?
  417. # [17:52] <antonp> TabAtkins__, plinss : that's fine
  418. # [17:53] <antonp> TOPIC: Flexbox Issues
  419. # [17:53] <glazou> FWIW, I have now a basic layout editor based on the most recent flexbox spec
  420. # [17:53] <antonp> TabAtkins__: Are Rossen et al happy with the changes we made to address Rossen's issue?
  421. # [17:53] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
  422. # [17:53] * Parts: leif (~leif@public.cloak) (leif)
  423. # [17:53] <glazou> http://lockerz.com/s/287452841
  424. # [17:53] <antonp> TabAtkins__: about stretching elements
  425. # [17:53] <fantasai> issue 8
  426. # [17:53] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
  427. # [17:53] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
  428. # [17:53] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0040.html
  429. # [17:54] <fantasai> nm
  430. # [17:54] <fantasai> 12
  431. # [17:54] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0251.html
  432. # [17:54] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0260.html
  433. # [17:55] <antonp> TabAtkins__: orthogonal flow issue: resolve it in a similar way to multicol, to get good behaviour. Current spec is terrible
  434. # [17:55] <antonp> fantasai: please review, everyone!
  435. # [17:56] <antonp> fantasai: Defining intrinsic sizing on flexbox made a lot of issues fall out correctly
  436. # [17:56] <fantasai> fantasai: we had missed defining intrinsic sizing of flex containers; now that that's defined, we think the spec works for these cases.
  437. # [17:56] <Zakim> -glenn
  438. # [17:57] <Zakim> -Plh
  439. # [17:57] <antonp> plinss: Bye everyone
  440. # [17:57] <Zakim> -Tantek
  441. # [17:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  442. # [17:57] <Zakim> -Stearns
  443. # [17:57] <Zakim> -hober
  444. # [17:57] <Zakim> -smfr
  445. # [17:57] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  446. # [17:57] <Zakim> -BradK
  447. # [17:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  448. # [17:57] <Zakim> -djackson
  449. # [17:57] <Zakim> -jdovey
  450. # [17:57] <Zakim> -plinss
  451. # [17:57] * Parts: dael (~djackson@public.cloak) (Leaving...)
  452. # [17:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  453. # [17:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
  454. # [17:57] <Zakim> -glazou
  455. # [17:57] * Parts: jdovey (~jim@public.cloak) (jdovey)
  456. # [17:57] <Zakim> -koji
  457. # [17:57] <Zakim> -antonp
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  460. # [17:57] <Zakim> -TabAtkins__
  461. # [17:57] <Zakim> -Bert
  462. # [17:57] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~TabAtkins@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  463. # [17:57] <Zakim> -Lea
  464. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  465. # [17:57] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, glazou, krit, djackson, glenn, +1.619.846.aabb, antonp, smfr, hober, fantasai, Stearns, nvdbleek, Bert, SimonSapin, Plh, +1.832.797.aacc,
  466. # [17:57] <Zakim> ... +1.832.797.aadd, TabAtkins__, Tantek, koji, Lea, Rossen, SteveZ, BradK, +1.905.607.aaee, jdovey
  467. # [17:57] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  468. # [17:57] <glazou> thanks for shadow dom explanations, TabAtkins_
  469. # [17:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
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  471. # [18:01] <glazou> florian, a bit late
  472. # [18:01] * @Bert fixed the cyclic link at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text-decor/. Still doesn't understand why it only failed today, when the directory seems to have been renamed in Mercurial 5 months ago already...
  473. # [18:02] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  474. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc#T17-06-21
  475. # [18:02] * Joins: djackson (~djackson@public.cloak)
  476. # [18:02] <fantasai> djackson: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc.txt
  477. # [18:03] * florian Zakim won't let me in
  478. # [18:03] <glazou> florian, conf call just *ended*
  479. # [18:03] <glazou> DST time in US...
  480. # [18:03] <@Bert> Zakim is in Boston, only knows the Boston clock :-)
  481. # [18:03] <glazou> poor Zakim
  482. # [18:03] <florian> Peter's mail said 6pm paris time
  483. # [18:04] <fantasai> djackson: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/0SVZi6YYsY
  484. # [18:04] <glazou> florian, argl
  485. # [18:04] <glazou> copy paste error
  486. # [18:04] <glazou> the real agenda in www-style says 5pm...
  487. # [18:04] <florian> grrrr
  488. # [18:04] <florian> Checked the wrong mail
  489. # [18:04] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0336.html
  490. # [18:04] <glazou> yep
  491. # [18:04] <fantasai> djackson: "\d\d:\d\d:\d\d " replace with nothing
  492. # [18:04] * Quits: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  493. # [18:05] <florian> And I did check specifically, since I wondered if we were still in DST mismatch time
  494. # [18:05] <glazou> I think we make the move this coming week-end, not sure
  495. # [18:05] <florian> Oh well, more time for dinner then
  496. # [18:05] <glazou> eh
  497. # [18:06] <florian> Sorry for failling to show up
  498. # [18:06] <glazou> np
  499. # [18:07] <@Bert> Next week we're still one hour off. In April it's at 6 again.
  500. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> glazou, florian, next week is also at 17:00
  501. # [18:07] <fantasai> djackson:
  502. # [18:07] <fantasai> djackson: http://collabedit.com/mptt2
  503. # [18:07] <glazou> SimonSapin, sigh
  504. # [18:07] <glazou> ok
  505. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> lightning (calendar) gets this right
  506. # [18:07] <florian> Good to know, thanks
  507. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> (each event can have its own timezone)
  508. # [18:08] <florian> Which time zone should be the base for this one? PST?
  509. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> boston
  510. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> aka America/New York
  511. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> America/New_York in the tz database
  512. # [18:09] <liam> or Canada/Toronto if you prefer :-)
  513. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> dbaron would know the exact answer :)
  514. # [18:12] <glazou> lol
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  520. # [18:17] <fantasai> djackson: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/
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  524. # [18:53] <fantasai> djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
  525. # [18:53] <fantasai> djackson: http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2013/03/15/resolutions-84/
  526. # [18:54] <fantasai> djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0355.html
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  535. # [19:01] <fantasai> djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0474.html
  536. # [19:01] <fantasai> djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0472.html
  537. # [19:01] <fantasai> djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0471.html
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  560. # [21:14] <pjrm> Are there any public implementations of css-print ?
  561. # [21:15] <pjrm> The recently updated CSS print profile requires behaviour that conflicts with css3-page in treatment of the 'pages' counter.
  562. # [21:16] <pjrm> I was wondering what the compatibility issues are and what a good solution would be.
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  566. # [21:31] <SimonSapin> pjrm: how is it conflicting?
  567. # [21:32] <SimonSapin> pjrm: AFAIK some printers are based on css-print
  568. # [21:32] <pjrm> css-print requires that a counter named 'pages' be modifiable, whereas css3-page requires that it not be modifiable.
  569. # [21:33] <pjrm> The css-print requirement was introduced before either 'page' or 'pages' had special meaning in css3-page.
  570. # [21:35] <SimonSapin> I don’t know how much of an issue this is
  571. # [21:35] <SimonSapin> fantasai?
  572. # [21:35] <pjrm> It just means that a css3-page implementation can't be used as a conforming css-print driver.
  573. # [21:36] <pjrm> Which seems unfortunate.
  574. # [21:37] <SimonSapin> I don’t know if anyone really cares about css-print nowadays
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  576. # [21:38] <pjrm> I was getting that impression from the way fantasai announced the updated css-print document, which was once a CR but now a note.
  577. # [21:39] <SimonSapin> is was updated recently to fix references and make it a note but I don’t think anyone wants to work on it, at least
  578. # [21:40] <SimonSapin> still, if fantasai doesn’t answer here feel free to bring it up on www-style
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  581. # [21:51] <pjrm> Re vw/vh units: one approach would be to delay to give glazou a chance to develop css-page-4, which he intends to be closer to what browsers would support, and see what definition makes sense in that context. The intent would be to avoid having the definition of vw/vh change between near-future css3-page and css-page-4, if that does work out.
  582. # [21:52] <pjrm> It depends how pressing the use cases for vw/vh in print are, or what needs to be done to meet those use cases.
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  585. # [22:06] <SimonSapin> I think glazou wants to focus and headers, footers, footnotes, etc. I don’t think css4-page will change much, if anything, regarding the page size or viewport units
  586. # [22:09] <SimonSapin> Honestly I don’t think that viewport units have great use cases in paged media, especially if @page size is not 'auto'. But both features separately do have use cases, so we need to define how they interact. It would be silly to just supporting vw when switching from screen to print in the same browser
  587. # [22:10] <SimonSapin> to just stop* supporting
  588. # [22:15] <pjrm> he may well use some different "container" for those headers & footers, e.g. using something from css3-regions or css3-page-template/, and there might be existing rules about what vw would mean in the context of one of those containers.
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The end :)