/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-04-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 17 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-css-irc
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# [17:07] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:07] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
# [17:07] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:07] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0381.html'
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# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:53] <Zakim> + +2aaaa
# [17:53] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:53] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [17:53] <Zakim> +florian; got it
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# [17:54] * florian by the is zakim case sensitive when declaring associating nicks with call ids?
# [17:54] <plinss> zakim, 2aaaa is sgalineau
# [17:54] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '2aaaa'
# [17:55] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is sgalineau
# [17:55] <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P7
# [17:55] <Zakim> +Krit
# [17:55] <Zakim> +glenn
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# [17:56] <Zakim> +??P11
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aabb
# [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, ??P11 is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:56] <dael> zakim, aabb is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael; got it
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# [17:56] <dbaron> so what SIP clients have people had success with on Linux?
# [17:57] <dbaron> or Android, actually?
# [17:57] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
# [17:57] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
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# [17:57] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
# [17:58] <glazou> dbaron, have you tried linphone?
# [17:58] <rhauck> Zakim, aacc is me
# [17:58] <glazou> used to work for me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [17:58] * nvdbleek I use linphone on iOS, but they have an android app too
# [17:59] * nvdbleek https://www.linphone.org/eng/linphone/news/android.html
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:59] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:00] <MaRakow> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:01] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
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# [18:01] * florian silent now?
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:01] <smfr> yes
# [18:01] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:01] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
# [18:01] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
# [18:01] * florian I hate open cubicles
# [18:01] * sgalineau always pictures florian getting on the call while driving a school bus
# [18:02] * florian that would be fun
# [18:02] * florian I wish my school bus driver was a csswg member
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# [18:03] <glazou> yo plh
# [18:03] * hober oh god, i don't. they'd redefine the route right before we got to school
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aadd
# [18:03] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aadd is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
# [18:03] <Ms2ger> A bus? Today we ride the School Sub!
# [18:03] <glazou> hober, the bar route in SD you mean ?-)
# [18:03] * hober :)
# [18:03] <BradK> Rename all the bus stops
# [18:04] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:04] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:04] <plh> zakim, drop plh
# [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, plh, I do not see a party named 'plh'
# [18:04] * florian get in at the front of the bus. I meant start of the bus. I meant before the bus.... head of the bus...
# [18:05] <plh> zakim, passcode?
# [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P74
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# [18:05] <Zakim> +plh
# [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, ??P74 is dbaron
# [18:05] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
# [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:05] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
# [18:06] <plinss> zakim, pick a victim
# [18:06] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dael
# [18:06] * dbaron is in over SIP on potentially dodgy wifi, so it probably shouldn't be me
# [18:06] <plinss> zakim, pick a victim
# [18:06] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose [IPcaller]
# [18:06] <dael> One day I'll be on contract, I swear :)
# [18:06] <TabAtkins_> I'm trying!
# [18:06] <Bert> Scribe: Bert
# [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:07] <Bert> Topic: Colors 4
# [18:07] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Some syntax improvements form past few years. Suggestion from dbaron.
# [18:07] <ChrisL> so colors4 is just syntax options plus a bad color property
# [18:08] <Bert> ... I pulled them together into a module.
# [18:08] <Bert> ChrisL: So it is syntax, plus a bad, horrible property?
# [18:08] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:08] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:08] <Bert> TabAtkins_: It was dbaron 's suggestion.
# [18:08] <Bert> dbaron: Web browsers do no follow the spec now.
# [18:09] <Bert> ChrisL: Depends on what you mean by that.
# [18:09] <stearns> s/do no/do not/
# [18:09] <Bert> ... srgb as device rgb is fine and fairly common.
# [18:09] <Bert> ... wide gamut monitor is different.
# [18:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:09] <Bert> ... Treating it as srgb will give good results.
# [18:10] <Bert> ... So current situation is good and allows for future. This new property makes things worse.
# [18:10] <Bert> dbaron: It's for PNG images with info in them.
# [18:10] <Bert> ChrisL: Chromaticity oo ITC tag
# [18:10] <Bert> dbaron: Those will not use CSS colors.
# [18:11] <Bert> ... So you cannot match PNG to CSS colors.
# [18:11] <Bert> ChrisL: In that past we had pb with flash. But flash can now be color managed, too.
# [18:11] <Bert> ... So no reason anymore.
# [18:11] <Bert> ... So the situation has changed since 3 \years.
# [18:12] <Bert> dbaron: OK, so we shoild look at it again.
# [18:12] <Bert> ChrisL: I can help.
# [18:12] <Bert> ... Editors for css3-colors?
# [18:12] <Bert> TabAtkins_: css4-color so far a private draft.
# [18:12] <glazou> if I say css 6, do I win?
# [18:12] <Bert> ChrisL: I'd be happy to be co-editor.
# [18:12] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Seems you're in the editoprs list already.
# [18:13] <Bert> plinss: Do we work on it?
# [18:13] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see sgalineau, [IPcaller], plinss, ??P7, Krit, glenn, glazou, dael, nvdbleek (muted), rhauck, Stearns, [Microsoft], SimonSapin, Bert, smfr, Lea, fantasai,
# [18:13] <Bert> dbaron: I've heard some objections to every simngle thing in the draft.
# [18:13] <ChrisL> ok to work on it subject to discussing the contentious property
# [18:13] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, TabAtkins_, dbaron, plh, ChrisL
# [18:13] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
# [18:13] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen
# [18:13] <Bert> dbaron: I'm not happy with the [???] syntax.
# [18:13] <Bert> ... compat pb.
# [18:13] <ChrisL> s/ITC/ICC
# [18:13] <TabAtkins_> s/[???]/new/
# [18:14] <Bert> ... Syntax could have been better, but not wo5rth changing now.
# [18:14] <Bert> ChrisL: What do current impls do with new syntax?
# [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:14] <Bert> dbaron: Error and fall back.
# [18:14] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:14] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:14] <Bert> ChrisL: OK.
# [18:15] <Bert> ... So no pages can depend on the new syntax.
# [18:15] <Bert> florian: There *may* be pages that depenbd on it *not* working.
# [18:15] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Low possibility.
# [18:15] <Zakim> +Tantek
# [18:15] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:15] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
# [18:15] <Bert> florian: Yes, but this syntax it is something people might try, becaus eit looks reasonable, and then never remove.
# [18:16] <tantek> oh good times, we're talking color matching again :)
# [18:16] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Maybe not discuss all features today.
# [18:16] <ChrisL> in practice its not going to break anything
# [18:16] <Bert> ... Just whether we want the draft or not.
# [18:16] <Bert> dbaron: The question is if there are any features we want to do.
# [18:16] <Bert> ... Not convinced it is worth our time implementing compared to other stuff.
# [18:17] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:17] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Some of them are 15 minute work.
# [18:17] <Bert> dbaron: And than compat pb to chase down.
# [18:17] <Bert> arronei: and testing.
# [18:17] <Bert> TabAtkins_: hex-with-alpha is long-standing request.
# [18:17] <Bert> ... and [...] I trip over every time I write Canvas code.
# [18:18] <Bert> plinss: So, do we want to work on it?
# [18:18] * ChrisL weak agree but if we decide not to do it, that is fine too
# [18:19] <Bert> TabAtkins_: glazou was against me starting it on W3C server.
# [18:19] * dbaron is probably slightly against, but would want to hear from other people
# [18:19] * krit suggests adding adobeRGB()
# [18:20] <sgalineau> TabAtkins: what daniel against starting a draft, or against starting it without getting a WG decision to do so first?
# [18:20] * florian think we have better things to do, but not absolutely opposed. Just a matter of priority
# [18:20] <Bert> TabAtkins_: As long as I can use the m-list for discussion, I'm fine.
# [18:20] <tantek> regardless of what repository a draft is in, the problems that dbaron mentions are still there
# [18:20] <tantek> of distracting implementations from other more important things etc.
# [18:20] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:20] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:20] <TabAtkins_> sgalineau: With me starting a draft *in a W3C server* wihtout a WG decision.
# [18:20] <Bert> plinss: OK, so no formnal draft of colors 4, but folks can discuss possible contents on mailing list.
# [18:20] <tantek> that being said, why not document the incremental additions on our wiki?
# [18:20] <Bert> Topic: marquee
# [18:21] <sgalineau> yes; without a WG decision was the missing bit. thx.
# [18:21] * Ms2ger hasn't seen marquee in a long time...
# [18:21] <Bert> plinss: Spec is very old, discontinued.
# [18:21] <Bert> ... Should we publish a new one with a disclaimer?
# [18:21] <Bert> florian: Webkit has impl, I think.
# [18:21] <Bert> ... should we revisit marquee, or just drop it?
# [18:22] <SimonSapin> +1 for big red obsoletion notices in obsolete specs
# [18:22] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Impl is terrible, we want to remove it.
# [18:22] * sgalineau speaking of higher priorities: marquee!
# [18:22] * tantek agrees with immediate obsoletion
# [18:22] * florian marquee is worth removing because it introduces porperties that interfere with stuff with actually want to do
# [18:22] <tantek> and if anyone wants to re-raise it as a draft in the future, they can do so
# [18:22] * sgalineau marquee color matching sounds like a hot use-case
# [18:23] <Bert> ChrisL: Isn't there a knock-on affect, some parts about box model that are only there?
# [18:23] * leaverou Opera has a partial impl too fwiw
# [18:23] <ChrisL> I recall some part of box model is only there for marquee
# [18:23] <tantek> what plinss just said
# [18:23] <Bert> bert: I'd suggest makeing a note, somebody reads through it to look for things to safe.
# [18:23] <BradK> So we can ignore 'overflow-style'?
# [18:23] <Bert> florian: overflow-style. Also in paged-x overflow.
# [18:23] <tantek> I wouldn't even suggest a note. Just the discontinued warning.
# [18:23] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:24] <Bert> TabAtkins_: Once it is officially discared I can then remove our code.
# [18:24] <florian> to bert: it is the in the gcpm spec, but not in the only implementation of it (opera) which uses overflow-x/-y
# [18:24] * BradK agrees that overflow-style should be thoroughly killed.
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:24] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:25] <Bert> RESOLVED: publish an update with a note that says it is no longer
# [18:25] <Bert> ChrisL: Can move to WD without any difficult process.
# [18:25] <Bert> dbaron: WD or NOTE?
# [18:25] <tantek> Note: this spec is discontinued.
# [18:25] <Bert> florian: NOTE sounds like a good thing.
# [18:25] <ChrisL> is there anything else in it apart from marquee?
# [18:26] <tantek> I agree, leaving it as CR will send an ambiguous message.
# [18:26] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:26] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#tr-end
# [18:26] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <dbaron> "If W3C decides to discontinue work on a technical report before completion, the technical report SHOULD be published as a Working Group Note."
# [18:26] <Bert> Chris: nothing else than marquee in it? Then whole thing can become a Note.
# [18:26] <Bert> dbaron: [quotes from Process]
# [18:27] <Bert> florian: Also add a note to GCPM about overflow-style?
# [18:27] <Bert> ... In the overflow spec there are issues noted, but not in gcpm.
# [18:27] <dbaron> peter: should probably move to the overflow spec
# [18:27] <Bert> ... So just a note to say be careful.
# [18:28] <plh> example of a discontinued work: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-webdatabase-20101118/ (style may vary :)
# [18:28] <Bert> ... paged-x/y no longer on 'overflow-style'
# [18:28] <Bert> RESOLVED: publish an update to Marqueewith a note that says it is discontinued.
# [18:28] <Bert> RESOLVED: publish an update to Marqueewith a note that says it is discontinued. Make it a NOTE.
# [18:28] * florian will drink to the demise of overflow-style tonight
# [18:28] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:29] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sgalineau (1%), [IPcaller] (46%), plinss (27%), Bert (10%)
# [18:29] <Bert> florian: I propose to action howcome.
# [18:30] <Bert> ... Spec says overflow-style won't be used. Don't say waht would be used instead.
# [18:30] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [18:31] * sgalineau if you need howcome's attention just make GCPM a WG note
# [18:32] * ChrisL someone just raise the issue in tracker
# [18:32] * ChrisL move on
# [18:32] <dbaron> Bert protests that action shouldn't be given to somebody who isn't here
# [18:32] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:32] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:32] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
# [18:32] <koji> zakim, [ipacaller.aa] is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named '[ipacaller.aa]'
# [18:33] <Bert> ACTION howcome: add an issue to GCPM to say that paged-x/paged-y won't be on 'overflow-style' but something else.
# [18:33] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:33] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:33] <trackbot> Created ACTION-556 - Add an issue to GCPM to say that paged-x/paged-y won't be on 'overflow-style' but something else. [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2013-04-24].
# [18:33] <koji> zakim, ipacaller.aa is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'ipacaller.aa'
# [18:33] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0215.html
# [18:33] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:33] <Bert> Topic: scientific notation for percentage and dimension
# [18:33] <koji> zakim, [IPCaller.aa] is me
# [18:33] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:33] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <ChrisL> \0/ scientificEnotation
# [18:33] * sgalineau SCIENCE
# [18:33] <Bert> Bert: didn't we already discuss sciencific notation?
# [18:33] <glazou> ChrisL, I would use another emoticon...
# [18:34] <Bert> TabAtkins_: for numbers, not percentzges/dimens
# [18:34] <dbaron> I'd interpreted our previous resolution that we were including percentages and dimensions.
# [18:34] <glazou> s/percentzges/percentages
# [18:34] * florian can't report the issue in tracker, GCPM isn't listed there
# [18:34] <Bert> ... SVG allows it everywhere.
# [18:34] <dbaron> We just didn't want to allow scientific notation for <integer>.
# [18:34] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:34] <glazou> ROFL
# [18:34] <Bert> ... So we should, too.
# [18:34] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:34] <ChrisL> +1 to what Tab said
# [18:34] * krit scientific numbers are verywhere
# [18:34] <dbaron> I support Tab's proposal.
# [18:34] <Bert> TabAtkins_: As dbaron says, we don't want it for integers.
# [18:34] <SimonSapin> let’s do it
# [18:35] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:35] <Bert> florian: The reason for the notation was SVG in the 1st place.
# [18:35] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <Bert> dirk: [missed]
# [18:35] <Bert> ... Upper bounds?
# [18:35] * sgalineau this worked in IE for years. goes to show some things should never be fixed...
# [18:36] <Bert> Tab: We talk about overflow, but haven't settled bounds.
# [18:36] <Bert> ... Plan to put it in valuds 4
# [18:36] <Bert> plh: Objections?
# [18:36] <Bert> RESOLVED: scientific notations also in percentages and dimensions
# [18:36] <florian> should I create a product entry for GCPM in tracker so that issues can be reported against it?
# [18:36] * ChrisL assumes few implementations are using binary coded decimal for infinite precision numbers
# [18:36] <glazou> florian, yes
# [18:36] <plinss> s/plh: Objections?/peter: Objecitons?/
# [18:36] * ChrisL florian yes
# [18:36] * krit sgalineau just in quircks mode IIRC
# [18:37] <glazou> florian, add a large database :-D
# [18:37] * plh was starting to wonder :)
# [18:37] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0187.html
# [18:37] <glazou> issue 316
# [18:37] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
# [18:37] * Bert did tab-completion, sorry
# [18:37] * sgalineau krit: I think in standards mode too. there was no conformance test that required removing it afaik
# [18:37] <ChrisL> issue-316?
# [18:37] * trackbot is looking up ISSUE-316.
# [18:37] <trackbot> ISSUE-316 -- #ident vs #1hash for ID selectors -- raised
# [18:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/316
# [18:37] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0145.html
# [18:37] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:37] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:37] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:37] <Bert> Topic: table cells and pseudo-stacking contexts
# [18:37] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:37] <Bert> dbaron: Not sure it needs telcon time.
# [18:37] * krit sgalineau so IE can say it implemented a web standard first!
# [18:38] <Bert> ... Nobody replied to msg yet.
# [18:38] <Bert> ... I'd encourage TabAtkins_ and fanatasi to read it, and everybody who is interested,
# [18:38] <Bert> ... Complex enought that we shouldn't discuss on telcomn before some more list discussion.
# [18:38] <dbaron> s/fanatasi/fantasai/
# [18:39] <Bert> RESOLVED: will revisit table cells and pseudo-stacking contexts later
# [18:39] <tantek> greetings
# [18:39] <glazou> tantek, can't hear you
# [18:39] <tantek> unmute tantek
# [18:39] <tantek> Zakim, unmute tantek
# [18:39] <Zakim> Tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:39] <Bert> Topic: css3-ui
# [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:39] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:39] * Zakim sees on the phone: sgalineau, [IPcaller], plinss, ??P7, Krit, glenn, glazou, dael, nvdbleek (muted), rhauck, Stearns, [Microsoft], SimonSapin, Bert, smfr, Lea, fantasai,
# [18:39] * Zakim ... [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, TabAtkins_, dbaron, plh, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aa], Tantek, [IPcaller.a], koji
# [18:39] * Zakim [IPcaller] has florian
# [18:39] * Zakim [Microsoft] has arronei
# [18:39] <Bert> plinss: hasn't been updated in a while.
# [18:39] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (4%), glazou (9%), TabAtkins_ (44%)
# [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, mute TabAtkins_
# [18:40] <Zakim> TabAtkins_ should now be muted
# [18:40] <Bert> TabAtkins_: A request came in for cursor values.
# [18:40] <Bert> .. Got a reply from Tab.
# [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, mute glazou
# [18:40] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:40] <Bert> ... But want group to discuss if we need another LC
# [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, unmute glazou
# [18:40] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:40] * ChrisL believes that is tantek talking, despite what zakim thinks
# [18:40] <Bert> ... [looking for e-mail]
# [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:40] <glazou> that white noise is painful
# [18:40] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (3%)
# [18:40] * smfr wonders why box-sizing is in css3-ui
# [18:41] <glazou> Zakim, mute Bert
# [18:41] <Zakim> Bert should now be muted
# [18:41] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:41] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:41] <glazou> Zakim, unmute Bert
# [18:41] <Zakim> Bert should no longer be muted
# [18:41] * ChrisL not me
# [18:41] * dbaron Zakim, mute me
# [18:41] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:41] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:41] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:41] <glazou> thanks dbaron !
# [18:41] <glazou> unmute TabAtkins_
# [18:41] <tantek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0056.html
# [18:41] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:41] <dbaron> sorry about that... I was surprised that my sound quality was ok!
# [18:41] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:41] * plinss smfr: because we needed it in 1998 to be able to size buttons properly...
# [18:42] <Bert> tantek: LC with those two new cursor values.
# [18:42] <Bert> ... And various things at risk.
# [18:42] * TabAtkins_ smfr: Today, it should probably go in the Sizing spec with the new width/height keywords.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins_> smfr: But no reason to not keep it in UI's CR for now. ^_^
# [18:42] <Bert> ... This is your chance to propose more features :-)
# [18:42] <Bert> glenn: [???] in draft?
# [18:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:42] * smfr TabAtkins_ same with text-oveflow
# [18:42] <Bert> tantek: Yes, at risk.
# [18:43] <Bert> ... If it is on the web, that is a good reason, otherwise just misleading authors.
# [18:43] <Bert> ... I heard no implementers implementing it.
# [18:43] <dbaron> If we're going to do another last call, should we make an attempt to fix 'nav-index'?
# [18:43] <Bert> ... Want to keep it at risk.
# [18:44] <Bert> glenn: Was some activitiy in DLMA television space.
# [18:44] <Bert> ... Has a normative ref to CSS.
# [18:44] <Bert> tantek: There are problems with nav properties
# [18:44] <Bert> ... Fixed for TABINDEX in HTML, but not gotten round to fixing CSS.
# [18:45] <Bert> ... No sense in referencing them, because thay are broken.
# [18:45] <ChrisL> s/DLMA/DLNA
# [18:45] <Bert> glenn: Anybody fixing them? Or docs on why they are broken?
# [18:45] <glenn> s/[???]/nav-* properties in CSS UI/
# [18:45] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:45] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:45] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, unmute TabAtkins_
# [18:45] <Zakim> TabAtkins_ should no longer be muted
# [18:45] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:45] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:45] <tantek> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/nav-index
# [18:45] <Bert> dbaron: There are some... After discussion with accessibility people, I described some problems in e-mail.
# [18:46] <Bert> TabAtkins_: If they are broken, take them out?
# [18:46] <Bert> tantek: No pb with that.
# [18:46] <Bert> ... Can store the old text on wiki.
# [18:46] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2011Nov/0034.html
# [18:46] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:46] * florian filed https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/324
# [18:46] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2011Nov/0035.html
# [18:46] <Bert> glenn: Somebody should contact Web and TV IG.
# [18:46] <dbaron> (and threads following)
# [18:46] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:46] <dbaron> were the issues I was thinking of
# [18:46] <Bert> ... TV people will be unhappy with us removing them.
# [18:47] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:47] <Bert> plinss: [summarizing] new LC, drop nav, but contact web and tv folks first.
# [18:47] * glazou notes that nav- are used in GCPM too ...
# [18:47] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:47] <Bert> tantek: Could chairs do the liasing?
# [18:47] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:47] <Bert> ... I can do the editing.
# [18:48] <dbaron> should probably also contact WAI-PF
# [18:48] <Bert> florian: While contactinbg tv people, also conact Opera. They are actibe there and will prob. have an opinion.
# [18:49] <Bert> tantek: Presto was dropped.
# [18:49] * Quits: Israelh (~Israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:49] * krit Does the test suite pass on the Wii?
# [18:49] <Bert> florian: Not said what happens with Opera in TV space
# [18:49] * ChrisL can't see much further development on presto if it is only used on embedded devices and not on mobile or desktop
# [18:49] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:49] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:50] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:50] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:50] * Zakim dbaron was not muted, dbaron
# [18:50] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:50] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:50] * florian further development would be surprising indeed, but long term maintenance might not, and removing actively used features would be unpleasant
# [18:50] <Bert> dbaron: Contact WAI PF about nav props
# [18:50] <Bert> plinss: How long LC period?
# [18:50] <Bert> tantek: minimum. Small change.
# [18:50] <Bert> ChrisL: Sounds fine.
# [18:50] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
# [18:50] <tantek> thanks dbaron for the email links. have added to: http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/nav-index
# [18:51] <Bert> plinss: Other than WAI PF, wh do we want to ask for review?
# [18:51] <Bert> ChrisL: Let me check if SVG refs css3-ui...
# [18:51] <Bert> glenn: Can we record a resolution?
# [18:51] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:51] <Bert> plinss: Yes, but still collecting the data.
# [18:52] <Bert> ChrisL: SVG2 refs css3-ui, So we should ask SVG WG.
# [18:52] <Bert> plinss: Other goups?
# [18:52] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:53] <Bert> RESOLVED: publish LC with added cursor values. Move nav props to level 4. Contact Web and TV and Opera about nav changes. Ask LC comments from WAI PF and SVG and any groups we asked for prev LC.
# [18:53] <tantek> I have added nav properties as explicitly dropped from CSS3 in the CSS4 UI wiki page: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#dropped-css3-features
# [18:53] <glazou> LOL https://twitter.com/css3ui
# [18:53] * oyvind doesn't know much about TV but http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0164.html mentions webkit too
# [18:53] <tantek> that's where we'll track them for moving forward
# [18:53] <Bert> glenn: There was ATSC standard with nav props.
# [18:53] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:53] <Bert> ... That could be references by anybody who can no longer ref CSS.
# [18:53] <glazou> tantek, you own that twitter account ?
# [18:54] <glenn> ATSC A/100-2 did define nav-* props http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a100/a_100_2.pdf
# [18:54] <tantek> glazou yes
# [18:54] <glenn> just for historical note only
# [18:54] <glazou> tantek, lol @ oldest tweet
# [18:54] <Bert> bert: Who will contact Web and TV anbd Oepra?
# [18:54] <Bert> plinss: The chairs.
# [18:54] <tantek> glazou, thanks. oh I need to update that Twitter bio.
# [18:54] <Bert> Topic: ICC profiles and Lab colors
# [18:54] * plh notes that Guiseppe from Opera is co-Chair of Web/TV IG
# [18:55] * Quits: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:55] <Bert> dirk: If we don't publish css4-color, then maybe makes no sense to discuss this now.
# [18:55] <Bert> plinss: color-correction proeprties?
# [18:56] * leaverou if we add the capability for ICC color profiles, it might be useful to add cmyk() colors everywhere, not just paged media. Graphic designers are very accustomed to them.
# [18:56] <Bert> SimonSapin: These features might be enough to make css4-color.
# [18:56] <Bert> ChrisL: Yes, these are significant properties.
# [18:56] <Bert> ... Browsers are behind with color mgmt. Other SVG impls are ahead.
# [18:56] <SimonSapin> leaverou, with a default conversion for RGB-based displays?
# [18:57] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:57] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:57] <leaverou> possibly
# [18:57] <Bert> ... It's great functionality. Hppy to see it moving into CSS4 or 5.
# [18:57] <Bert> dbaron: What does it allow you to do?
# [18:57] <Bert> ChrisL: Match with an image, e.g.
# [18:57] <Bert> ... Directly specify LAB colors as well.
# [18:57] <SimonSapin> leaverou, it’s even device-cmyk() which is obviously device-dependent
# [18:58] <Bert> ... Says how to inerpolate and transform. Also allows polar form of color.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Tantek
# [18:58] * stearns has to drop for another meeting
# [18:58] * tantek has to drop off the call to do another call
# [18:58] <leaverou> SimonSapin: It was cmyk() a few years ago, didn't notice it changed.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins_> s/polar form of color/polar form of Lab color/
# [18:58] <tantek> but will lurk in IRC
# [18:58] <Bert> dbaron: For color profile, it's autjhor convenince, but no new capability.
# [18:58] * sgalineau same as astearns
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [18:58] <Zakim> -sgalineau
# [18:58] <Bert> ChrisL: No, it *does* add new function.
# [18:58] <Bert> dbaron: But it maps to sRGB.
# [18:58] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:58] <Bert> TabAtkins_: [missed]
# [18:59] <Bert> ChrisL: No, ICC profiles give you colors not in sRGB.
# [18:59] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:59] <Bert> dbaron: CSS can go outside sRGB.
# [18:59] <SimonSapin> leaverou, I’m reading GCPM. Maybe cymk() is/was another spec?
# [18:59] <Bert> ChrisL: Yes, but badly implemenbted and somwehat underdefined.
# [18:59] <leaverou> SimonSapin: I think it was an older version of GCPM, circa 2009
# [19:00] <Bert> dbaron: I'd rather fix it by allowing sRGB outside [0,1] than by adding more color profiles.
# [19:00] <SimonSapin> indeed
# [19:00] <Bert> ChrisL: That's different form a whole industry. What is the benefit?
# [19:00] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:00] <Bert> dbaron: Keep CSS simple.
# [19:00] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <Bert> ChrisL: Not really simple,m if CSS is diff. from other systems.
# [19:00] <Bert> dbaron: It adds quite a bit of syntax.
# [19:01] <Bert> ... Which seems unnecessary.
# [19:01] <dbaron> if the point is to just reference a thing used elsewhere
# [19:01] <Bert> ChrisL: The syntax gives you 3 or more params and a (link to) an ICC profile.
# [19:01] <Bert> ... No need for a full URL.
# [19:01] <glazou> leaverou, no public WD of GCPM has ever had it AFAICT
# [19:01] <Bert> ... Reference e.g., Adobe RGB profile.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
# [19:01] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
# [19:01] <Bert> ... Or a CMYK color, etc.
# [19:02] * glazou has another conf call and has to leave
# [19:02] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-css3-gcpm-20100608/#cmyk-colors
# [19:02] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-gcpm-20111129/#cmyk-colors
# [19:02] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:02] <glazou> bye
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:02] <Bert> ... Exact same value can be written in CSS as in corporate style or logo.
# [19:02] <leaverou> glazou: just the previous one: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-css3-gcpm-20100608/#cmyk-colors cc SimonSapin
# [19:02] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <Bert> plinss: [missed]
# [19:02] <glazou> leaverou, oh right sorry
# [19:02] <Bert> ChrisL: Scope.
# [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:02] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:02] <Bert> plinss: Maybe this becomes css4
# [19:03] <Bert> ... Is that reasonable path forward?
# [19:03] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:03] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [19:03] <Bert> [Adjourned]
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Krit
# [19:03] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
# [19:03] <Zakim> -plh
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:03] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:03] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
# [19:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [19:03] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
# [19:03] <Zakim> -??P7
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Lea
# [19:03] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
# [19:03] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [19:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were +2aaaa, plinss, florian, sgalineau, Krit, glenn, +1.610.324.aabb, glazou, dael, nvdbleek, +1.415.832.aacc, rhauck, Stearns, SimonSapin, Bert, smfr, Lea, MaRakow,
# [19:03] <Zakim> ... fantasai, [Microsoft], Rossen, hober, BradK, +1.832.797.aadd, TabAtkins_, plh, dbaron, ChrisL, arronei, Tantek, [IPcaller], koji
# [19:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:04] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
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# [19:08] <ChrisL> lea, gcpm changed cmyk() to device-cmyk following a comment I made asking them to clarify if it was color managed or not (it isn't)
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# [19:10] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: do you think it could make sense to convert somehow a cmyk() notation to RGB, for screen display?
# [19:10] <leaverou> ChrisL: good call. I do think that color managed CMYK would be useful, and not just for print
# [19:10] <leaverou> Many graphic designers are used to CMYK colors
# [19:11] <ChrisL> lea yes, converting a specific color space to another one (including rgb) is what color management does
# [19:11] <leaverou> yes, I know :) I'm saying we need it
# [19:12] <ChrisL> however, you want to preserve the original color definition and convert at display time, not convert early and put it in the css because that is lossy
# [19:12] <ChrisL> glad to hear your support. dbaron did not seem to think it helped any. lots of designers would disagree
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# [19:12] <ChrisL> yes, its not just for print
# [19:13] <leaverou> ChrisL: in this call?
# [19:13] <SimonSapin> would linear-gradient(rgba(…), cmyk(…)) be well-defined?
# [19:13] <ChrisL> although the drive ti implement comes from print; or more precisely from folk repurposing media for both screen and print
# [19:13] <leaverou> SimonSapin: yes, it would be converted to sRGB using the declared ICC profile
# [19:13] <ChrisL> simon - yes, it would, provided interpolation-colorspace is defined
# [19:14] <ChrisL> s/ ti / to
# [19:14] <ChrisL> lea - no
# [19:14] <ChrisL> it would not necessarily be converted to sRGB
# [19:14] <leaverou> well, it could be a solution. Yours sounds better :)
# [19:14] <SimonSapin> I’m not seeing this any time soon in WeasyPrint, though :/ Not until cairo has some support for it
# [19:15] <ChrisL> does cairo not?
# [19:15] <SimonSapin> cairo does RGBA everywhere
# [19:15] <SimonSapin> without color profile AFAICT
# [19:16] <leaverou> as a designer, I'd love to be able to use cmyk() values and have them converted to RGB for screen and used as device CMYK for print. If that makes sense. Does it, ChrisL?
# [19:16] <ChrisL> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/icc-for-cairo
# [19:16] <SimonSapin> leaverou: btw, to follow up on TPAC discussion: yes, conic-gradient() can be expressed as a "mesh pattern", which a recent cairo version added
# [19:17] <ChrisL> lea - yes that makes sense and is exactly what the SVg2 color stuff does. i'd like to see that used in general CSS.
# [19:17] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: interesting, thanks
# [19:17] <leaverou> SimonSapin: this is brilliant!! Do you remember which other engines use Cairo too? I forget
# [19:18] <ChrisL> lea I would really value getting together with you sometime and a) explaining the color stuff in more depth b) getting your feedback from a designer perspective
# [19:18] <leaverou> ChrisL: that sounds awesome!!!
# [19:18] <ChrisL> firefox used to use cairo, does it still?
# [19:18] <leaverou> ChrisL: They wanted to change, but no idea if they did
# [19:18] <SimonSapin> I think it does, at least to render gradients
# [19:19] <ChrisL> firefox went from one (different) library per platform, to cairo on all platforms. i forget why they wanted to change again
# [19:19] <SimonSapin> http://dabblet.com/gist/5395860 I get exactly the same moiré in Firefox and WeasyPrint
# [19:20] <leaverou> great. Might be time to make a bugzilla issue for conic-gradient()
# [19:20] <SimonSapin> by the way, WeasyPrint is getting linear-gradient() and radial-gradient(). Release today or tomorrow
# [19:20] <leaverou> though I doubt they have the resources to implement an ED
# [19:20] <leaverou> wait, css4-images are a WD now, right?
# [19:20] <leaverou> yup http://www.w3.org/TR/css4-images/
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# [19:21] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: ICC for cairo is still a proposal, right'
# [19:21] <SimonSapin> ?
# [19:21] <ChrisL> simon - http://lists.cairographics.org/archives/cairo/2012-October/023621.html
# [19:22] <leaverou> looks like it
# [19:22] <ChrisL> and http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/OpenIcc/Cairo
# [19:23] <SimonSapin> leaverou: SVG2 has some kind of mesh patterns too http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html
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# [19:23] <ChrisL> simon, mentioning that weasyprint would like to use icc support in cairo, if it exists,, would be useful encouragement i think
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# [19:24] <leaverou> thanks SimonSapin
# [19:24] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: I would also need a CSS spec to implement, but yes :)
# [19:24] <leaverou> I guess that's not implemented anywhere though, right?
# [19:24] <ChrisL> what isn't implemented anywhere?
# [19:24] <SimonSapin> leaverou, I don’t think so (mesh patterns)
# [19:25] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG2/pservers.html#MeshGradients
# [19:25] <ChrisL> yes mesh patterns are implemented. or by 'anywhere' did you mean ' in an html browser'
# [19:26] <SimonSapin> ChrisL, Inkscape?
# [19:26] <ChrisL> yes
# [19:26] <ChrisL> yes using the exact syntax proposed
# [19:26] <ChrisL> also the functionality is in a bunch of libraries
# [19:26] <ChrisL> like cairo
# [19:26] <leaverou> ChrisL: I do mean in an HTML browser :P
# [19:26] <ChrisL> like the one illustrator uses
# [19:26] <ChrisL> like the one corel draw uses
# [19:26] <ChrisL> and in pdf libraries
# [19:26] <leaverou> ChrisL: btw is illustrator crappy with SVG clipping paths or is it my idea?
# [19:26] <SimonSapin> it’s a the PDF format too
# [19:27] <ChrisL> yes illustrator can be crappy with clip paths especially additive ones
# [19:27] <leaverou> ChrisL: for instance, it can't open this simple SVG: http://www.webplatform.org/errors/images/logo-2.svg
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# [19:28] <leaverou> ChrisL: nor can it open this one: http://lea.verou.me/humble-border-radius/img/mr-border-radius.svg
# [19:29] <ChrisL> (I don't have illustrator on this laptop. I used up the license to put it on my desktop machine instead)
# [19:29] * SimonSapin gotta go, bye
# [19:29] <leaverou> bye SimonSapin!
# [19:30] <ChrisL> lea are you coming to japan fr the ac meeting?
# [19:30] <leaverou> nope :/
# [19:30] <leaverou> I'm gonna miss the next CSS f2f too, due to a conf in Canada
# [19:30] <ChrisL> wondering when our paths might physically intersect to do the big color discussion
# [19:30] <leaverou> ChrisL: where do you live?
# [19:31] <leaverou> France?
# [19:31] <ChrisL> nice, cote d'azur, france
# [19:31] <leaverou> ah, no conferences there
# [19:31] <leaverou> that I'm going, I mean
# [19:31] <leaverou> ChrisL: are you attending any confs?
# [19:31] <ChrisL> i failed to get to libre graphics unfortunately
# [19:31] <ChrisL> was last week, in spain
# [19:32] <ChrisL> i normally go to that
# [19:32] <ChrisL> apart from that not got any confs upcoming
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# [19:32] <ChrisL> i usually skip www because it is all semantic web stuff
# [19:33] <ChrisL> nice is less than 90 minutes flight from paris. so let me know if you go to a conf there
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# [19:38] * liam had meant to check with chrisl re. LGM
# [19:38] <liam> leaverou, what's the conference in Canada? :-)
# [19:38] <leaverou> liam: GoBeyondPixels
# [19:39] <liam> oh wow, NF
# [19:40] <liam> (took me a while to find the venue, but that style of page is really trendy!)
# [19:41] <liam> oooh Lea Verou is speaking! I want to go!
# [19:41] <TabAtkins_> liam: You ever seen Lea speak? Her talks are *really* good.
# [19:41] <leaverou> awwww thanks TabAtkins_
# [19:41] <liam> actually no but I'd like to
# [19:41] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: you never told me that in person :P
# [19:41] <liam> mind you I've never seen _me_ speak either I suppose :-)
# [19:42] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: LIES
# [19:43] <TabAtkins_> (maybe true. If so, sorry, you're a great speaker.)
# [19:43] <liam> I enjoyed a visit to St John's a few years ago for an art conference my partner was at, I spent a day wandering round. And then we rented a brmbrm and drove around to gawk at brightly-coloured houses & decide if we wanted to move there
# [19:43] <leaverou> haha
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# [20:04] * liam reading Tab's helpful blog entry on futures
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# [21:43] <stearns> TabAtkins_: is specificity of ::distributed defined anywhere? If these three all match the same element, which wins? ::distributed(#id), ::distributed(.class), #id::distributed(#id)
# [21:46] <TabAtkins_> stearns: No, it's not. I'll have to think on it. Probably just a pass-through.
# [21:46] <stearns> ok, I'll post to www-style so it's on the list of things to define
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# [21:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space-processing
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# [22:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai, TabAtkins_: should Selectors 4 say that functional pseudos have that specificity *unless otherwise specified*? If we keep adding to the list of :not() :matches() and ::distributed()
# [22:13] <fantasai> :not() and :matches() are actually quite interesting
# [22:13] <fantasai> they're different
# [22:13] <fantasai> see the recent checkin
# [22:13] <fantasai> So, I don't think we should say anything
# [22:14] <fantasai> just have pseudos follow the same pattern
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# [22:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: my question is, will we have many other "interesting" pseudos ;)
# [22:22] <fantasai> possibly ^_^
# [22:23] <SimonSapin> Selectors 3 says "expression ∗ element → boolean". With :matches()’s specificity I like to think of it as rather "expression ∗ element → Maybe(specificity)"
# [22:23] <fantasai> ?
# [22:23] <fantasai> I think it's actually "expression ∗ element → boolean, specificity"
# [22:24] <SimonSapin> there is a specificity even when the element doesn’t match?
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# [22:25] <fantasai> hm, good point. Guess there isn't :)
# [22:25] <fantasai> So that would return null for the specificity!
# [22:25] <fantasai> yay null
# [22:25] <SimonSapin> yeah, that’s what I meant
# [22:25] <fantasai> null // N/A
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# [22:26] <SimonSapin> return either a specificity or null/None/nil/nothing
# [22:26] <SimonSapin> I think that’s even how I’ll implement it in cssselect’s successor
# [22:27] <SimonSapin> (whose main design is not being based on XPath)
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# [22:39] <liam> SimonSapin, darn! stick with XPath! You know you want to! :-)
# [22:40] * liam remembers and goes back to trying to compile weasyprint
# [22:40] <SimonSapin> compile?
# [22:41] <liam> well, install. looks like pip is trying to compile lxml for reasons not clear to me
# [22:41] <liam> ah, "building 'lxml.etree' extension"
# [22:41] <SimonSapin> liam: I’m convinced some selectors can not be expressed in XPath, at least not 1.0. Example: .foo ~ :nth-child(3)
# [22:42] <liam> is that the 3rd child?
# [22:42] <SimonSapin> third child of its parent, but only if it’s after a .foo sibling
# [22:42] <SimonSapin> (.foo could be any selector)
# [22:43] <SimonSapin> cssselect’s current implementation does third counting from .foo, not third of its parent
# [22:43] <liam> ok, so, e.g. *[position() = 3][ name(preceding-sibling::*[1]) = 'foo' ]
# [22:43] <liam> oh, maybe you meant anywhere after
# [22:44] <liam> in which case just *[position(0 = 3][preceding-sibling::foo]
# [22:45] <SimonSapin> hum, I see. I’ll have to see if that can be generalized to any expression
# [22:45] <liam> people get pretty creative with xpath :)
# [22:46] <SimonSapin> as to lxml, what OS? there might be packages
# [22:46] <liam> mageia linux
# [22:46] <liam> lxml is packaged byt not the etree extension perhaps
# [22:46] <SimonSapin> it’s the same
# [22:46] <liam> there's a missing -I in the compilation line so it doesn't find libxml/xmlversion.h
# [22:47] <liam> oh, then I'm not sure why it's trying to build it
# [22:47] <SimonSapin> but if you’re using virtualenv without --system-site-packages, the system’s package will not be used
# [22:47] <liam> aha
# [22:48] <SimonSapin> I’d like to have an all-in-one weasyprint binary for people who do not care about Python, but it’s also a library for people who manage their own pythons
# [22:48] <liam> yeah, I have not previously encountered virtualenv and just followed the 3-line instructions on http://weasyprint.org/docs/install/
# [22:49] <SimonSapin> hum
# [22:50] <SimonSapin> start over with "virtualenv ./venv --system-site-packages" instead of the first line
# [22:50] <SimonSapin> I’ll change the docs to suggest that
# [22:51] <SimonSapin> Still, rebuilding lxml should work. Do you get error messages?
# [22:52] <liam> yes but they are gone now, sorry. However, the error was gcc saying it couldn't find libxml/libxmlversion.
# [22:52] <liam> h
# [22:52] <liam> which would be because there was no -I/usr/include/libxml2 on the command-line for gcc
# [22:54] <liam> maybe there's a #weasy somewhere? :)
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# [22:54] <SimonSapin> or because you need not only a libxml2 package, but libxml2-dev for the .h files. Or something. I’m not sure how it works on Mageia
# [22:54] <SimonSapin> ##kozea on freenode
# [22:54] <liam> no, I have the dev package installed
# [22:55] <SimonSapin> weird, it should figure out the -I flags
# [22:55] <liam> just don't want to flood #css :)
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# [23:54] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: Probably a good idea.
# [23:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_: which one? :)
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# [23:57] <TabAtkins_> SimonSapin: Specifying the default specificity of functional pseudos that take selectors.
# [23:58] <SimonSapin> well, the default is 1 (ie. pseudo-class same as a class, pseudo-element same as an element), the point was "unless otherwise specified"
# Session Close: Thu Apr 18 00:00:00 2013

The end :)