/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-04-24 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [01:04] <stearns> TabAtkins_: ping - is there a way in a multi-line flex container to say "no more than two flex items per line"?
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# [17:27] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-css-irc
# [17:27] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
# [17:28] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:30] <SimonSapin> Layout bug. Guess what? It’s because of margin collapsing.
# [17:44] <glazou> TabAtkins_, not sure we'll have time for your extra item ; agenda's pretty full already
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# [17:55] * dbaron is going to use SIP again (over a much better internet connection than last week, though), but could switch to phone if needed
# [17:55] <glazou> ok dbaron
# [17:55] <SimonSapin> dbaron, which client did you end up using?
# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> +??P4
# [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:58] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
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# [18:03] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
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# [18:03] <dbaron> SimonSapin, linphonec
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# [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P40 is dbaron
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# [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:04] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
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# [18:04] <cabanier> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
# [18:04] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0556.html'
# [18:04] <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
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# [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:05] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, [IPcaller], plinss, Krit, dael, Stearns, SylvaIng, fantasai, [Microsoft], antonp, dbaron (muted), smfr, cabanier, SimonSapin
# [18:05] * Zakim [Microsoft] has MaRakow
# [18:05] * Zakim [IPcaller] has florian
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:05] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:07] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
# [18:08] <dbaron> glazou: I included a few extra agenda items already; saw one more from Tab about display:none-ness, but Agenda quite full already.
# [18:08] <dbaron> glazou: Two first things...
# [18:08] <dbaron> Topic: Tokyo
# [18:08] <dbaron> glazou: Need to start collecting agenda for Tokyo, please add items to wiki.
# [18:08] <dbaron> glazou: I think we still need some admin details (e.g., hotels) from jdaggett. Or maybe I missed them.
# [18:08] * fantasai thinks we can skip item 5, unless someone has feedback not sent to www-style
# [18:09] <dbaron> glazou: I'll ping jdaggett to get these details.
# [18:09] <dbaron> Topic: Publications
# [18:09] <dbaron> glazou: We have request from fantasai to publish selectors4.
# [18:09] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0418.html
# [18:09] <dbaron> fantasai: Tab and I upgraded (?) a whole bunch of things in selectors4.
# [18:09] <dbaron> fantasai: Simon Sapin sent some comments that we still need to address.
# [18:10] <dbaron> SimonSapin: I sent a bunch of feedback, but nothing blocking WD.
# [18:10] <dbaron> arron: We had a discussion about author requirements. That note needs to go in module template and all specifications, saying author requirements are non-normative.
# [18:10] <dbaron> fantasai: I think they should be normative.
# [18:10] <dbaron> arron: then we need to test them
# [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:10] <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
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# [18:11] <dbaron> arron: In CSS 2.1 we had a note saying author requirements are not normative.
# [18:11] <dbaron> sylvain: ...
# [18:11] <dbaron> arron: In css3 module template we have removed that text
# [18:11] * dbaron is astounded by that text!
# [18:11] <dbaron> arron: Which means we assume author requirements are now normative and testable.
# [18:12] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:12] <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think we've ever done it this way.
# [18:12] <dbaron> arron: We have to test all normative requirements.
# [18:12] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:12] <glazou> ah hello koji
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# [18:12] <dbaron> Florian: I think it's fine for author requirements to be normative.
# [18:12] * sgalineau thinks this is a complete non-problem
# [18:12] <koji> hi Daniel
# [18:13] <fantasai> dbaron: We have to test all the implementation conforming requirements.
# [18:13] <fantasai> dbaron: We don't have to demonstrate that we have two conforming authors.
# [18:13] <dbaron> dbaron: We have to demonstrate that we have two conforming implementations; don't need to demonstrate 2 conforming authors.
# [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:13] <dbaron> arron: How do you prove implementable by authors?
# [18:13] <dbaron> dbaron: Not part of the process.
# [18:14] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
# [18:14] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [18:14] <dbaron> dbaron: I'm strongly opposed to this text in 2.1 and didn't know it was there.
# [18:14] <dbaron> arron: in 3.1
# [18:14] <dbaron> section
# [18:14] * sgalineau If the process makes it harder to specify authoring requirements the process needs to change
# [18:14] <dbaron> Florian: This undermines validators.
# [18:14] <dbaron> arron: authors free to do what they want with documents...
# [18:15] <dbaron> ...
# [18:15] <dbaron> dbaron: If no author requirements are normative then we have no definition of a conforming document
# [18:15] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:15] <dbaron> arron: ... demonstrate?
# [18:15] <dbaron> dbaron: I think we want 2 conforming implementations, ... though somebody should read process.
# [18:15] <florian> I just dropped. I'll be right back
# [18:16] <dbaron> peter: We have to meet the exit criteria we put in our own specs.
# [18:16] <dbaron> peter: We only talk about implementations.
# [18:16] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:16] <dbaron> arron: I don't want to push specs out that don't have this.
# [18:16] <dbaron> arron: We need to define this more clearly, maybe in testing area.
# [18:16] <oyvind> CSS 2.1 section 3.1 just says something about "recommendations", and that text applies to both authors and UAs
# [18:17] <dbaron> dbaron: I wasn't sure why combinators inside :not() and :matches() was moved into full profile
# [18:17] <fantasai> foo :matches(bar baz)
# [18:17] <fantasai> <foo><bar><baz/></bar></foo>
# [18:17] <fantasai> <bar><foo><baz/></foo></bar>
# [18:17] <dbaron> fantasai: This allows branching selector path.
# [18:17] <dbaron> fantasai: I'm fine to include it if that's what people want.
# [18:18] <dbaron> dbaron: Already have to do that for mixes of child and descendant combinators
# [18:18] <dbaron> body > div p
# [18:19] <dbaron> dbaron: It's slow but I don't think it has totally different implementation characteristics.
# [18:19] <dbaron> dbaron: Maybe put an issue in the spec saying we're not sure and people will comment
# [18:19] <dbaron> fantasai: sounds ok
# [18:19] <dbaron> RESOLVED: publish WD of selectors4
# [18:20] <dbaron> Topic: Grid Template Layout
# [18:20] <dbaron> glazou: Bert asked to publish WD of grid template layout
# [18:20] <dbaron> Bert: last WD more than a year old
# [18:20] <dbaron> Bert: I've integrated discussion of regions, more integrated with content, page templates, and regions
# [18:20] <dbaron> Bert: I think it's quite nice now.
# [18:20] <dbaron> Bert: Not yet LC, too many details that can go either way; in some cases doesn't matter.
# [18:20] <dbaron> Bert: But I think it's time for a new WD. Lots of things to do with page layout at the moment.
# [18:21] <dbaron> Bert: Would be nice to have something new in that area.
# [18:21] <dbaron> glazou: I have a problem with this document. Because it's a challenging spec for the grid layout that is implemented by browser vendors, and I don't see browsers expressing interest in this one.
# [18:21] <dbaron> glazou: I'd like to hear from browser vendors on this call: are you interested in this spec, the different syntax it proposes for grid?
# [18:21] <dbaron> glazou: because apparently nobody's implementing it
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# [18:22] <dbaron> Bert: But the existence of prototypes outside of browsers in indication people want it.
# [18:22] <dbaron> glazou: One from César, quite old.
# [18:22] <dbaron> Bert: César made two, and there are two others.
# [18:22] <dbaron> glazou: Polyfill or native implementation?
# [18:22] <dbaron> Bert: 3 JS, one native
# [18:22] <dbaron> glazou: I'd like at least one week to review the document.
# [18:22] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:22] <BradK> Sorry I'm late
# [18:23] <dbaron> glazou: It seems to me another content sink for stuff that should probably go elsewhere. What do other people think?
# [18:23] <dbaron> dbaron: I haven't had a chance to follow it.
# [18:23] <dbaron> ?: same here
# [18:23] <florian> s/?/florian/
# [18:24] <dbaron> fantasai: Haven't looked at most recent WD, but found that while I don't think Bert's module would go to LC as such, has been able to pull together ideas from different specs and define how they integrate. Reasonably useful thing.
# [18:24] <dbaron> glazou: Seems we need some time to review the document.
# [18:24] <dbaron> glazou: Bert, is 1 week for review ok?
# [18:24] <BradK> Are we talking about marquee?
# [18:24] * florian Brad:no
# [18:24] <stearns> BradK: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-template/
# [18:24] <dbaron> Bert: 1 or 2 weeks is fine. As I said, a year old.
# [18:24] <dbaron> glazou: ok, will revisit in 1 or 2 weeks
# [18:24] <dbaron> ACTION all: review grid template layout
# [18:24] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:24] <trackbot> Error finding 'all'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:25] <dbaron> Topic: color-correction into color-interpolation
# [18:25] <dbaron> dbaron: Didn't we do this last week?
# [18:25] <stearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0096.html
# [18:25] <dbaron> dirk: I didn't put on agenda; discussion continuing on mailing list.
# [18:25] <dbaron> Topic: column-fill and column-overflow
# [18:25] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0042.html
# [18:26] <dbaron> dbaron: Don't think it needs telecon time now.
# [18:26] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0181.html
# [18:26] <dbaron> Topic: flow-into
# [18:26] <stearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0471.html
# [18:26] <dbaron> Stearns: Has been on agenda for a few weeks, I just went ahead and did it. Second message describes change to region spec.
# [18:26] <dbaron> Stearns: Don't know if we need time on the call unless people want to comment.
# [18:27] <dbaron> Bert: Initial reaction: dangerous, sounds like XSLT territory redoing the tree.
# [18:27] <dbaron> Bert: Want to see examples of what it's useful for.
# [18:27] <dbaron> Bert: And want to try doing those things different ways without destroying the tree.
# [18:27] <dbaron> glazou: Needed at least for selectors not being able to target text nodes.
# [18:27] <dbaron> glazou: So using combinator with a star not enough
# [18:27] <dbaron> Bert: Have example in css3 layout spec
# [18:27] <hober> belated regrets; at the html wg f2f
# [18:28] <glazou> thanks hober
# [18:28] <dbaron> Bert: Have example ...
# [18:28] <dbaron> Bert: worried it's not quite what we want
# [18:28] <glazou> hober, other CSS WG members with you there ?
# [18:28] <dbaron> Bert: ... part of the content, not all of the content ....
# [18:28] <dbaron> Stearns: Bert, would definitely like to see use case
# [18:28] <dbaron> Stearns: Initially came about because Rossen was asking for it, maybe Rossen can post use cases
# [18:29] <dbaron> Stearns: In general, going back into history of regions, this is something that was discussed very early on
# [18:29] <dbaron> Stearns: alexmog had action to figure out way of doing this correctly
# [18:29] <hober> glazou: tantek isn't here yet, but i assume he will be
# [18:29] <glazou> ok hober
# [18:29] <dbaron> Stearns: earlier had decided to push to level 4, decided to pull back to current level
# [18:29] <dbaron> Bert: what happens to inheritance if element removed
# [18:29] <dbaron> Stearns: as with all named flow mechanisms not modifying dom tree
# [18:30] <dbaron> Stearns: All we're doing is taking the boxes in element's content area and moving them to named dflow and displaying in region chainn
# [18:30] <dbaron> Bert: maybe we should not discuss here, might take too much time. But all kinds of difficult cases. Though maybe I don't understand what you want... not sure if there's really a problem.
# [18:30] <dbaron> Stearns: would like to see difficult cases on list
# [18:30] <dbaron> glazou: so, move to mailing list
# [18:30] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0331.html
# [18:30] <dbaron> Topic: justification for symbols
# [18:31] <dbaron> Topic: Recommended justification for symbols
# [18:31] <dbaron> Koji: you say I should make a recommendation?
# [18:31] <dbaron> fantasai: If nobody else has an opinion I think Koji and I can handle it offline
# [18:31] * fantasai TabAtkins_ ping
# [18:31] <dbaron> Topic: Text decoration issues
# [18:31] <Zakim> -cabanier
# [18:31] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:31] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:31] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6
# [18:31] * dbaron isn't sure it was me, though
# [18:32] <dbaron> fantasai: first is from dbaron, about droping text-underline-position: alphabetic
# [18:32] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:32] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:32] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0529.html
# [18:33] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:33] <dbaron> fantasai: your issue is that alphabetic is requesting to use font data except when it's incorrect
# [18:33] <fantasai> dbaron: My big problem with this is that I don't know how it would really be implemented
# [18:33] <dbaron> fantasai: I'd like to hear from jdaggett.
# [18:33] <dbaron> glazou: fantasai, can you take action to ping jdaggett
# [18:33] <dbaron> fantasai: did ping, haven't heard back
# [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai^: He knows a lot about font metrics and what's an appropriate way to use them
# [18:34] <dbaron> glazou: maybe handle off call?
# [18:34] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:34] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: does anyone else have feedback on issue?
# [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0526.html
# [18:34] <dbaron> glazou: ok, issue 8
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: dbaron pointed out z-order is opposite of what's in 2.1
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: changed underlines/overlines to draw over text
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: I think this is an intentional change
# [18:35] <fantasai> s/intentional/unintentional/
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: Anybody have any idea why it might have been intentional?
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: OK, I'll chnge that back to match 2.1
# [18:35] <dbaron> RESOLVED: text decoration z-ordering back to match 2.1
# [18:35] <dbaron> glazou: anything more to talk about?
# [18:35] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0546.html
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: need to just sit down and clarify stuff
# [18:35] * sgalineau for some reason thought overline/underline order was related to text-shadow
# [18:35] <dbaron> Topic: fixed positioning on content empty pages
# [18:36] <dbaron> SimonSapin: So there's 1 sentence in CSS21 that says fixed pos is repeated on every page in paged media.
# [18:36] <dbaron> SimonSapin: Do we want to repeat in empty pages that are generated by page-break: left/right?
# [18:36] <dbaron> SimonSapin: And do such pages match the :blank selector?
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: Only pages that should match :blank are ones that are generated by forced breaks
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: IF you have a very tall empty block and it prints across 2 pages...
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: Don't think it makes sense for that to match blank.
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: might have a background
# [18:37] <dbaron> SimonSapin: so we should tweak dfn of :blank or content-empty?
# [18:37] <BradK> sgalineau: Text shadow above the underline might look weird.
# [18:37] * Quits: israelh_ (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:38] <dbaron> fantasai: What would be more useful?
# [18:38] <dbaron> fantasai: I think only forced break pages matching :blank would be more useful.
# [18:38] <sgalineau> bradk: yeah. I can't recall the reasoning but I thought we discussed the paint order of these when we debated text-shadow. could be wrong...
# [18:38] <dbaron> oaue;
# [18:38] <dbaron> hold
# [18:38] <dbaron> please repeat
# [18:38] <dbaron> (I'm muted)
# [18:39] <dbaron> SimonSapin: 2 options. (1) repeat fixed position boxes on every page including pages generated by forced breaks
# [18:39] <dbaron> SimonSapin: (2) not display ???? boxes on pages that are supposed to be blank
# [18:39] <glazou> hold on left the call
# [18:39] <fantasai> s/????/fixed/
# [18:39] <glazou> ARGL my sip down
# [18:40] <dbaron> SimonSapin: And in any case tweak the definition of :blank and content-empty so it's what we want.
# [18:40] <glazou> plinss, can you take over please ?
# [18:40] <dbaron> fantasai: I have no opinion on this.
# [18:40] <dbaron> fantasai: Maybe ask murakami-san
# [18:40] * plinss ok
# [18:40] <dbaron> I think break: right/left is kinda like forced break,s btw.
# [18:40] <dbaron> Bert: I don't know what :blank should match, but I do think fixed elements should repeat on all pages.
# [18:40] <dbaron> Bert: Should be page number there but no fixed content. (???)
# [18:41] <glazou> plinss, SIP and phone all down, sorry, cannot rejoin right now
# [18:41] <dbaron> Bert, is that what you said?
# [18:41] <dbaron> s/Should/I don't see why there should/
# [18:41] <dbaron> SimonSapin: That's what I prefer too.
# [18:41] <dbaron> SimonSapin: In that case we need to make sure :blank still applies on such pages.
# [18:41] <dbaron> SimonSapin: I can take an action to edit that in the spec.
# [18:42] <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aabb
# [18:42] <dbaron> ACTION Sapin: Clarify definition of :blank selector in relation to fixed positioning
# [18:42] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-557 - Clarify definition of :blank selector in relation to fixed positioning [on Simon Sapin - due 2013-05-01].
# [18:42] * glazou is back
# [18:42] <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is glazou
# [18:42] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:42] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
# [18:42] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, Krit, dael, Stearns, SylvaIng, fantasai, [Microsoft], antonp, dbaron (muted), smfr, SimonSapin, [Microsoft.a], Bert, koji, [Microsoft.aa],
# [18:42] <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], BradK, glazou.a
# [18:42] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:42] <Zakim> On IRC I see BradK, JohnJansen, plh, dael, smfr, koji, MaRakow, oyvind, lmclister, florian, antonp, abucur, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, SteveZ, sgalineau, rhauck1, shepazu, dbaron,
# [18:42] <Zakim> ... krit, danielfilho|w, logbot, teoli, SimonSapin, alexmog, liam, ojan
# [18:43] <dbaron> glazou: Not sure if there's something to decide about unicode caseless matching.
# [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0553.html
# [18:43] <dbaron> glazou: Message from Addison Phillips about unicode caseless matching.
# [18:43] <dbaron> glazou: Want to make sure all members have seen it.
# [18:43] <dbaron> glazou: we finally got an answer to our questions
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# [18:43] <dbaron> glazou: jdaggett not on call, not sure discuss now, but will probably have to discuss to make sure we're in sync
# [18:44] <dbaron> glazou: But if someone has a comment...
# [18:44] <dbaron> Bert: If it's indeed safe to ignore normalization. Question of seeing what different OSes do. Sounds dangerous to me.
# [18:44] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Repeat position:fixed on all pages, including blank pages genarated by forced page breaks. Tweak the definition of :blank to match.
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# [18:44] <dbaron> Topic: Alignment
# [18:44] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013AprJun/0069.html
# [18:45] <dbaron> fantasai: We ran out of other topics? Is Tab on the call?
# [18:45] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/
# [18:45] <dbaron> fantasai: So we changed a bunch of things in this spec.
# [18:45] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#alignment-values
# [18:45] <dbaron> fantasai: Pulled out values and defined them in a common seciton.
# [18:45] <dbaron> fantasai: Two new values, self-start and self-end
# [18:46] <dbaron> fantasai: Came across the issue of whether start and end are determined w.r.t. container or the box's own writing mode
# [18:46] <dbaron> fantasai: overflow handling in CSS 2.1 handled by looking at cb direction, so decided cb direction should be default interpretation of start and end
# [18:46] <dbaron> fantasai: But sometimes want to align by box's own writing mode, so added self-start and self-end.
# [18:47] <dbaron> fantasai: An example would be grid, column of stuff with most l-to-r, some r-to-l, want to align all to start-edge (all left).
# [18:47] <dbaron> fantasai: Some specific cases might want based on writing mode, self-start and self-end address that.
# [18:47] <dbaron> fantasai: Second, we defined baseline alignment.
# [18:47] <dbaron> fantasai: Ton of text added to do this. We think it's right, but probably will be a while before it's all right.
# [18:48] <dbaron> fantasai: In old draft there was a 'true' keyword that was optional.
# [18:48] <dbaron> fantasai: In new draft we have 'true' and 'face' (?) keywords.
# [18:48] <dbaron> fantasai: And if neither is used, default depends on layout mode.
# [18:48] <dbaron> s/face/safe/
# [18:48] <dbaron> fantasai: Document-centric layout modes, defaults to 'true'. For design-centric modes, defaults to 'true'.
# [18:49] <dbaron> fantasai: Next, can combine content distribution keyword e.g. space-around with position keyword e.g. start/end
# [18:49] <dbaron> fantasai: Says what to do if you only have 1 thing.
# [18:49] <dbaron> fantasai: Added another content distribution keyword: space-evenly (like border-image) added to space-between and space-around (in flexbox).
# [18:49] <dbaron> fantasai: That came up in discussion we had about flexbox.
# [18:50] <dbaron> fantasai: We'd only added 2 for flexbox, but third might be useful for grid.
# [18:50] <dbaron> fantasai: E.g., if stuff on sides is not grid.
# [18:50] <dbaron> fantasai: Worked a bit on defining details of how things align.
# [18:50] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#content-distribution
# [18:50] <dbaron> fantasai: Details of how justify-content... <link
# [18:51] <dbaron> fantasai: section talks about block containers, (reads)
# [18:51] <dbaron> fantasai: exlpains how vertical-align continues to work on table cells by default
# [18:51] <dbaron> fantasai: we also talked about self alignment
# [18:51] <dbaron> fantasai, tricky bit was abspos and replaced elements
# [18:51] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#justify-self-property
# [18:52] <dbaron> fantasai: we have stretch keyword... block stretches by default if non-replaced
# [18:52] <dbaron> fantasai: but if replaced or has width, replaced by start
# [18:52] <dbaron> fantasai: so stretch and start are equivalent on block level boxes
# [18:52] <dbaron> fantasai: for abs pos we envision algimnent ... take containing block, offsets reduce cb, and within box normally behavior is stretch if you have auto w/h
# [18:53] <dbaron> fantasai: but if you take some other keywords but want to make it easy to center abs pos as well
# [18:53] <dbaron> This doesn't sound 2.1-compatible to me.
# [18:53] <dbaron> fantasai: If alignment property is not auto or stretch then you shrink-wrap and align with it instead of trying to fill whole box.
# [18:53] <dbaron> fantasai: ???? don't do that.
# [18:53] <dbaron> fantasai: So replace stretch keyword is equivalent to start.
# [18:53] <dbaron> fantasai: Trying to figure out if way to allow replaced elements to stretch.
# [18:54] <dbaron> fantasai: We added to justify property the ability to
# [18:54] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#justify-items
# [18:54] <dbaron> fantasai: ... justify-items property
# [18:54] <dbaron> fantasai: we wanted to handle center elements and the html align property somehow
# [18:54] <dbaron> fantasai: and came up with using justify-items property and adding a special keyword, and if that keyword is present
# [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: auto value of justify-items checks parent and if parent includes legacy keyword copies value to self
# [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: Was best we could come up with in terms of behavior that would handle that.
# [18:55] <dbaron> What about my old proposal?
# [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: If anybody has better idea about how to handle html stuff, open to better ideas?
# [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: And do we want it to be called legacy? legacy of 1990, legacy of parent?
# [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai: only allowed combination with left/right/center
# [18:56] <dbaron> fantasai: potentially useful to authors to use this thing, in which case do we want to allow combination with other kewyords?
# [18:56] <dbaron> fantasai: That's the overview of what we've done.
# [18:56] <dbaron> fantasai: It's going to need another few rounds of review edit
# [18:56] <dbaron> fantasai: Want to publish WD at some point but not high priority if people want time to look at things, week, 2 months, whatever?
# [18:56] <dbaron> I want some time to look at things
# [18:57] <dbaron> Is there a written summary of what you just described somewhere?
# [18:57] * sgalineau feels he has some explanations to give every time he reads about justify-self
# [18:57] <fantasai> I can create one today
# [18:57] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:57] <dbaron> fantasai: No written summary, but could create one today.
# [18:57] * krit can you repeat please? :D
# [18:58] <dbaron> Bert: Had three remarks.
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# [18:58] <dbaron> Bert: So far we've used center for horiz and middle for vertical
# [18:58] <dbaron> Bert: This only uses center, maybe should use middle
# [18:58] <dbaron> fantasai: Actually we don't have that distinction, if you look at bg position uses center for both
# [18:58] <dbaron> fantasai: and vertical-align: middle dosen't do centering... does weird text-middle thing
# [18:58] <dbaron> does for tables!
# [18:59] <dbaron> fantasai: to avoid that behavior and be consistent with bg-pos wanted center
# [18:59] <dbaron> Bert: for tables middle really is center
# [18:59] <dbaron> Bert: I don't like introducing extra property for true centering. We broke margin:auto
# [18:59] <dbaron> Bert: Don't like introducing property that changes meaning of another.
# [18:59] <dbaron> Bert: want margin: fill that means what margin auto used to mean
# [18:59] <dbaron> Bert: I know we did box-sizing in the indirect way
# [18:59] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:59] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [19:00] * Parts: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: This seems a lot less indirect to me in that it is doing block centering, that kicks in when there are no auto margins
# [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: Authors don't like working with margin: auto
# [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: We have a model where you can do both. You can use margin: auto;. but if it's not there, alignment properties can be used
# [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: Isn't the true value on the same property as these alignment properties?
# [19:01] <dbaron> fantasai: yes
# [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: yes, it's an optional keyword
# [19:01] <dbaron> Bert: oh, a shorthand?
# [19:01] <dbaron> fantasai: not shorthand, just property that takes potentially two values
# [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Not a shorthand, but takes multiple keywords
# [19:01] <dbaron> Bert: third remark: have a stretch/distribute value to justify blocks inside container
# [19:01] <dbaron> Bert: space, I think
# [19:02] <dbaron> Bert: But I'm missing... use case wanted all blocks to be just one after the other except the last block that should go all the way to the other end
# [19:02] <dbaron> Bert: cannot do that with spacing between
# [19:02] <dbaron> Bert: I wanted something like an auto margin
# [19:02] <dbaron> fantasai: I think case would have to be handled with margins... is in flexbox with auto margins
# [19:02] <dbaron> Bert: I was hoping to see that outside floxbox
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:03] <dbaron> Bert: I want it outside flexbox; flexbox has no collapsing margins. Author name at bottom.
# [19:03] <dbaron> fantasai: I think reasonable request, has to be handled in spec defining margins on block
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# [19:03] <dbaron> fantasai: We'd have to add a new kewyord, but I think that's out of scope for what we're doing here.
# [19:04] <dbaron> fantasai: When to publish WD? When to discuss?
# [19:04] <dbaron> I'd like some time to review
# [19:04] <dbaron> Bert: I'm fine with publishing now.
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:04] <dbaron> dbaron: I'd like at least a week to review
# [19:04] <dbaron> glazou: so revisit next week
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:04] <dbaron> glazou: meeting closed
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
# [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:04] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [19:04] <Zakim> -antonp
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# [19:04] <Zakim> -Krit
# [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou.a
# [19:04] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:05] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
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# [19:10] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, glazou, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, florian, plinss, Krit, dael, Stearns, SylvaIng, fantasai, +93192aaaa, antonp, MaRakow, dbaron, smfr, [IPcaller], cabanier, SimonSapin, [Microsoft], arronei,
# [19:10] <Zakim> ... Bert, koji, JohnJansen, BradK, +33.9.50.89.aabb
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# [19:58] <fantasai> stearns: Not explicitly, no. You can do that only by picking a flex basis that fits twice per line
# [19:58] <stearns> fantasai: would that be a flex basis of 50% (or near that?)
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# [20:10] <fantasai> stearns: yeah, that should work
# [20:11] <fantasai> stearns: if you want more sophisticated sizing (like, content-based flex basis), then it's not so easy to get 2 per line
# [20:11] <fantasai> stearns: but width/height 50% or just flex: 1 50%; should work I think...
# [20:13] <stearns> fantasai: in as much as multiline flexbox is really a composition engine in disguise, there may be some composition-style features that would be useful to eventually add
# [20:13] <stearns> fantasai: like a <br> to start a new flex line
# [20:14] <stearns> fantasai: or "this group of flex items comprise a flex paragraph"
# [20:15] <stearns> fantasai: but much much farther in the future than something to consider right now
# [20:20] <fantasai> stearns: We were thinking to do that with break-before or somesuch
# [20:20] <fantasai> if you need paragraphs, make multiple flexboxen?
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# [20:21] <stearns> multiple flexboxen is my current workaround, and it serves my ulterior purpose
# [20:22] <stearns> which is demonstrating the need for region boxes in different parents
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# [21:28] <fantasai> stearns: I'm not really sure what you wanted to do. ^_^
# [21:28] <fantasai> dbaron: What was your old alignment proposal for <center> ?
# [21:28] * fantasai going through the minutes now, just noticed the IRC comment
# [21:29] <dbaron> fantasai, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0071.html
# [21:30] <fantasai> I think I'm a little averse to adding more alignment properties...
# [21:30] * fantasai thinks we have 2 too many already
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# [21:38] <dbaron> yeah, probably true
# [21:38] * fantasai would have chosen not to have the -items properties
# [21:38] <fantasai> I think they're somewhat unnecessary
# [21:39] <fantasai> But they were in Flexbox, and was too late to remove...
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# [22:16] * liam fails at Latin translation and wonders about displayed-language: en-uk; to suggest a browser automatically translate the content
# [22:28] <stearns> seems like a browser feature - Chrome does that (or at least asks if you'd like to translate)
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)