/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-04-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  17. # [02:22] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
  18. # [02:23] <jdaggett> hiya!
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  20. # [02:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Since you're the resident font metrics expert...
  21. # [02:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: we've got an issue on text-underline-position: alphabetic
  22. # [02:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Says to use the font metrics, except when they're not alphabetic (e.g. some East Asian fonts use the bottom embox as the metric, or so I'm told)
  23. # [02:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Problem is, then you have to figure out whether the metrics are sane
  24. # [02:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: What's a reasonable thing to do here?
  25. # [02:30] <jdaggett> heh, prayer is the only answer
  26. # [02:30] * liam only does imperial fonts, not metric (but I did read the thread about underlines)... what does JustSystems do?
  27. # [02:30] <jdaggett> underline metrics are a problem area in fonts
  28. # [02:30] <jdaggett> they are often quite dodgy
  29. # [02:30] <liam> I suspect that's the best answer for Japanese
  30. # [02:31] <jdaggett> for gecko we have an explicit blacklist for fonts where we override the underline metrics
  31. # [02:31] <fantasai> interesting
  32. # [02:31] <liam> yeah, Adobe says they're all good but they're referring to the Adobe Type Library, not Random Fonts from te Interweb
  33. # [02:31] <jdaggett> it's a sad story
  34. # [02:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: What should we be speccing here?
  35. # [02:31] <jdaggett> lemme look over what you have
  36. # [02:31] <jdaggett> btw, did you send me an email at some point on this?
  37. # [02:32] <jdaggett> i'm concerned that postini is on the warpath again
  38. # [02:32] <liam> note also that if you have a piece of text with one character, é say, taken from another font, you don't really want the underline broken
  39. # [02:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: yes
  40. # [02:32] <jdaggett> when?
  41. # [02:33] * fantasai looks
  42. # [02:33] <fantasai> jdaggett: Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:53:35 -0700
  43. # [02:34] <jdaggett> grrrr, never received!!
  44. # [02:34] <fantasai> :/
  45. # [02:34] <jdaggett> are you a secret spammer?
  46. # [02:34] <jdaggett> :P
  47. # [02:34] <fantasai> I... don't think so?
  48. # [02:35] <jdaggett> the wrath of postini...
  49. # [02:35] <fantasai> maybe someone else on my server is?
  50. # [02:35] <jdaggett> can you resend?
  51. # [02:35] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
  52. # [02:36] <jdaggett> we'll see if it comes through this time...
  53. # [02:36] <fantasai> resent
  54. # [02:41] <jdaggett> grrr
  55. # [02:41] <jdaggett> "This message was blocked because the junk rating exceeded your junk message threshold. The threshold was determined by your overall junk filter and category filter settings."
  56. # [02:42] * jdaggett i do so love fishing through spam filter logs...
  57. # [02:43] <fantasai> :/
  58. # [02:47] <jdaggett> ok, i'll look at this by the end of the week
  59. # [02:48] <fantasai> kk
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  139. # [23:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: ping
  140. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> pong! Gimma one sec.
  141. # [23:07] * fantasai trying to track down Rossen
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  144. # [23:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: ?
  145. # [23:12] <TabAtkins_> K, ready.
  146. # [23:12] <Rossen> Where do we call in?
  147. # [23:13] <fantasai> Zakim, room for 4?
  148. # [23:13] <Zakim> ok, fantasai; conference Team_(css)21:11Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 2211Z
  149. # [23:13] <Zakim> Team_(css)21:11Z has now started
  150. # [23:13] <Zakim> +fantasai
  151. # [23:13] <fantasai> It's like magic!
  152. # [23:13] <fantasai> :D
  153. # [23:14] * fantasai waits for Rossen and TabAtkins_ to dial in
  154. # [23:14] * fantasai plays hold music
  155. # [23:15] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  156. # [23:15] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft is me
  157. # [23:15] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  158. # [23:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  159. # [23:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Close issue about doing magic table percentage things in Grid Layout as no change
  160. # [23:20] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  161. # [23:21] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css3-grid-layout-20130402/#alignment
  162. # [23:21] <fantasai> Issue: "The preceding paragraph seems inconsistent with Flexbox. In Flexbox, auto margins effectively "turn off" stretch entirely, so underflowing items get aligned per the margins and overflowing items overflow the line (rather than being shrunk to the size of the line). In the preceding paragraph, it seems that stretched grid items will always grow/shrink to the size of the grid area regardless of margins. I believe we want the Flexbox behavior. "
  163. # [23:21] * trackbot is creating a new ISSUE.
  164. # [23:21] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-326 - "The preceding paragraph seems inconsistent with Flexbox. In Flexbox, auto margins effectively "turn off" stretch entirely, so underflowing items get aligned per the margins and overflowing items overflow the line (rather than being shrunk to the size of the line). In the preceding paragraph, it seems that stretched grid items will always grow/shrink to the size of the grid area regardless of margins.
  165. # [23:21] <trackbot> ... I believe we want the Flexbox behavior. "; please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/326/edit>.
  166. # [23:21] <fantasai> oops
  167. # [23:22] <fantasai> Rossen: What we want from our current algorithm, to be aligned more like 10.3 CSS2.1, where alignment with margins is done only when width is fixed
  168. # [23:22] <fantasai> Rossen: that's one option
  169. # [23:22] <fantasai> Rossen: other one is follow more what the flexbox spec is doing, which is resolve your size and then still align
  170. # [23:23] <fantasai> fantasai: So the issue is, an item with auto size is placed in a grid.
  171. # [23:23] <fantasai> fantasai: If margins are auto, what happens? Do we shrinkwrap and align, or stretch to fill?
  172. # [23:23] <fantasai> Rossen: Do we resolve auto margins to zero or not? If they resolve to zero, they're not really used for alignment
  173. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: But we already have properties for alignment
  174. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: So abuse of margins where, in the past, we didn't have these powerful properties
  175. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: was a hacky way of creating alignment
  176. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: for block layout
  177. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: We can do much better now
  178. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: We are already doing it with the alignment property
  179. # [23:24] <fantasai> Rossen: Do we still really want to support hacky way of aligning stuff?
  180. # [23:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I want to be consistent with Flexbox, and don't think Flexbox is changing, so yes, still want to support that way of doing it.
  181. # [23:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Although it is more or less duplicating what we can already do
  182. # [23:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But is already familiar, and used in all of the layout modes alread
  183. # [23:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Margins get first crack at free space, before alignment properties, in Flexbox.
  184. # [23:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Shouldn't make that change per layout mode
  185. # [23:26] <fantasai> Rossen: What happens in overconstrained case
  186. # [23:26] <fantasai> ?
  187. # [23:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Does safe alignment, overflows in end direction.
  188. # [23:26] <fantasai> Rossen: That's lame
  189. # [23:27] <fantasai> fantasai: We have two ways of doing alignment in flexbox (margins, alignment properties) so that you can choose safe or true alignment
  190. # [23:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can do both in CSS3 Box Alignment now, but not available in Flexbox
  191. # [23:27] <fantasai> Rossen: How do we resolve clash between auto margins and justification?
  192. # [23:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Alignment only has effect if neither margin is auto
  193. # [23:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Been in Flexbox spec for a long time
  194. # [23:28] <fantasai> Rossen: OK.
  195. # [23:29] * Joins: cbiesinger (~uid8099@public.cloak)
  196. # [23:29] <fantasai> Rossen: In current spec, if we have margin: auto; width: auto; stretch;, stretch will win
  197. # [23:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's not how Flexbox works currently.
  198. # [23:30] <fantasai> fantasai: Note that default margins are zero, not auto. Someone turning on auto margins is asking for something explicitly.
  199. # [23:31] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Make grid behavior of auto margins vs. alignment properties consistent with Flexbox, i.e. auto margins win and alignment only works if neither margin is auto.
  200. # [23:31] <fantasai> close ISSUE-326
  201. # [23:31] * trackbot is closing ISSUE-326.
  202. # [23:31] <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-326 "The preceding paragraph seems inconsistent with Flexbox. In Flexbox, auto margins effectively "turn off" stretch entirely, so underflowing items get aligned per the margins and overflowing items overflow the line (rather than being shrunk to the size of.
  203. # [23:32] <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0256.html
  204. # [23:33] <TabAtkins_> grid-definition-columns: (first nav) 150px (main) 1fr (last);
  205. # [23:35] <fantasai> Discussing abspos
  206. # [23:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now we define that you can use grid properties to define the abspos's containing block as a grid cell
  207. # [23:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: In the Alignment spec, the alignment properties can be used to align the abspos within its containing block.
  208. # [23:37] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  209. # [23:37] <fantasai> Rossen asking about static position of abspos
  210. # [23:37] <fantasai> which is currently an open issue
  211. # [23:40] <fantasai> Rossen: If you have static-position align right, we would align it to right edge of ...
  212. # [23:42] <fantasai> Rossen: Basically, when static position is determined, we take into account the alignment property.
  213. # [23:42] <fantasai> Rossen: The auto position will be in the center, e.g.
  214. # [23:42] <fantasai> Rossen: All of the other abspos box model properties will take that position into account.
  215. # [23:43] <fantasai> fantasai: What do you do when everything is initial value?
  216. # [23:43] <fantasai> Rossen: Same as today, origin of grid cell.
  217. # [23:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Which grid cell?
  218. # [23:43] <fantasai> Rossen: Goes to default grid cell
  219. # [23:44] <fantasai> (We have an open issue on which is the default cell.)
  220. # [23:45] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  221. # [23:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: For back compat, in Alignment we specify that if abspos is auto-positioned, it doesn't respect alignment properties.
  222. # [23:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: However if you set left:0; right:0;, the abspos will align itself within those bounds
  223. # [23:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Could potentially say that grid (and flexbox?) it would work correctly even with auto
  224. # [23:47] <fantasai> Rossen: Propose we do that, simply because see number of useful things that people were doing with that
  225. # [23:48] <fantasai> Rossen: Sometimes people use abspos inside grid ...
  226. # [23:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Question here is, I'm not hearing anything so far that is actually a difference in behavior, just that your implementation lets alignment work when top/right/bottom/left is auto.
  227. # [23:48] <fantasai> s/behavior/capability/
  228. # [23:48] <fantasai> Rossen: Yes, this is it.
  229. # [23:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Prefer to avoid special cases for alignment spec
  230. # [23:49] <fantasai> fantasai: If we're doing for grid, should do for Flexbox.
  231. # [23:49] <fantasai> Rossen: Different case
  232. # [23:49] <fantasai> Rossen: Have app that is aligned to center, shrink to fit
  233. # [23:49] <fantasai> Rossen: content smaller than containing block.
  234. # [23:49] <fantasai> Rossen: abspos will, in LTR, have its topleft corner anchored in center of grid cell
  235. # [23:50] <fantasai> Rossen: in RTL, have its topright corner anchored in center of grid cell
  236. # [23:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ok, this is very different
  237. # [23:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So saying that the static position point is shifted around... ok
  238. # [23:51] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds really weird, but no objection to it...
  239. # [23:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: [summarizes this behavior]
  240. # [23:54] * Disconnected
  241. # [23:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  242. # [23:55] * Rejoined channel #css
  243. # [23:55] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0556.html'
  244. # [23:55] * Set by smfr on Wed Apr 24 18:02:56
  245. # [23:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Thought it would be first case..
  246. # [23:56] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-flexbox/#flex-items
  247. # [23:57] <fantasai> [discussion of anonymous text fixup]
  248. # Session Close: Fri Apr 26 00:00:00 2013

The end :)