/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-05-29 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 29 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:15] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0710.html'
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# [17:15] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:15] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
# [17:15] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:53] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [17:58] <Zakim> +krit
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P15
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P15 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P19
# [17:59] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P19 is dbaron
# [17:59] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +glenn
# [17:59] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:59] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
# [17:59] <dbaron> was I noisy when I joined?
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# [17:59] <glazou> dbaron, yes
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [17:59] <glazou> dbaron, white noise in bg
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P35
# [18:00] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P35 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P29
# [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:00] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [18:00] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Plh
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaaa
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P54
# [18:01] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
# [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
# [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:01] <leif> Zakim, P54 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, leif, I do not recognize a party named 'P54'
# [18:01] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, krit, glazou, dbaron (muted), glenn, [Microsoft], Stearns, SimonSapin, ??P29, smfr, Plh, antonp, +1.619.846.aaaa, ??P54
# [18:01] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen
# [18:01] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glenn (4%), +1.619.846.aaaa (40%), ??P54 (45%)
# [18:01] <leif> Zakim, ??P54 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +leif; got it
# [18:01] <leif> Zakim, mute me
# [18:01] <Zakim> leif should now be muted
# [18:01] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P58
# [18:02] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (52%), glenn (5%)
# [18:02] * leif hasn't fixed his SIP yet
# [18:02] <nvdbleek> zakim, I am ??P58
# [18:02] <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
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# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is hober
# [18:02] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:02] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
# [18:02] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
# [18:02] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:02] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 15 (22%), glazou (9%), antonp (10%), Plh (9%)
# [18:03] <smfr> why doesn't w3c put engineering resources into fixing zakim?
# [18:03] <rhauck> zakim, krit has me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
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# [18:03] <glazou> Regrets: Bert, jerenkrantz, sylvaing
# [18:04] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
# [18:04] <antonp> glazou: extra items?
# [18:04] <antonp> krit: new WD css-masking?
# [18:05] <antonp> glazou: ??
# [18:05] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:05] <antonp> plh: Renaming of css-variables? What's the story? Is the expectation to rename everything in the draft?
# [18:05] <antonp> glazou: it's dash-1 because it's the first level of the module
# [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:06] <antonp> ... the number doesn't indicate a "level of CSS". It's the level of a spec.
# [18:06] <antonp> fantasai: We want to switch from naming using level of CSS, to a system using "level of module".
# [18:06] <dbaron> fonts should be level 3 because there were font properties in levels 1 and 2
# [18:06] <dbaron> transforms being level 3 is a mistake
# [18:06] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
# [18:07] <antonp> ..: css3-flexbox should have been css1-flexbox
# [18:07] * TabAtkins Ugh, finally.
# [18:07] * TabAtkins had trouble getting into the call.
# [18:07] <krit> dbaron: transforms as renamed to CSS Transforms Level 1
# [18:07] <krit> dbaron: just the shortname doesn't match yet
# [18:07] <antonp> ... we decided to move the number to /after/ the module name, to avoid reader's confusion about whether it's the level of CSS that's indicated or the elvel of the module
# [18:08] <antonp> ..: We will shift the names and URLs as we go along.
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P82
# [18:08] * glazou notes that we hear krit MUCH better than usual
# [18:08] <antonp> TOPIC: Request to publish new WD css-masking
# [18:08] <darktears> Zakim: ??P82 is me
# [18:08] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
# [18:08] <antonp> krit: As per topic
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# [18:08] <darktears> Zakim, ??P82 is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +darktears; got it
# [18:08] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'm fine with that.
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# [18:09] <antonp> fantasai: I'd like issue of "having a shorthand to turn everything off" to be noted in the spec, but I'm otherwise fine
# [18:09] <antonp> ... in order to turn of masking, you currently need to know all three systems of masking. (The shorthand 'mask' can only be used to turn of one set of things.)
# [18:09] <antonp> ... I'd like to investigate the idea of having a more general simple switch
# [18:10] <antonp> fantasai: I'd like to have mask:none turn off all of the masking everywhere, so that it's easy to turn of masking no matter how many different masking features we add to the spec.
# [18:10] * tantek is on irc only today.
# [18:10] <antonp> .. I think that was one of my comments that I sent to the list.
# [18:11] <antonp> .. I'd prefer a note about the issue in the spec
# [18:11] <antonp> RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of css-masking
# [18:11] <antonp> TOPIC: Minutes from last week
# [18:11] <antonp> fantasai: I'll take care of sending last week's minutes to the list.
# [18:11] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/thread.html#msg650
# [18:12] <antonp> TOPIC: Animations and non-interactive media
# [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:12] <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:12] <antonp> dbaron: Spec doesn't say what should happen to animations when they print
# [18:12] <antonp> .. 1) Consensus towards: when printing, pretend the animation wasn't there
# [18:12] <antonp> .. but there were some concerns about that
# [18:13] <antonp> .. 2) Some people wanted an option for "print exactly what I see on my screen right now"
# [18:13] <antonp> .. and then there was some third options.
# [18:13] <antonp> .. I just committed a change to Gecko, for ignoring animations when printing
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# [18:14] <antonp> TabAtkins: I understand the comments about wanting "screen capture", but in the general case we should ignore the animations. It'll work for most cases. Might be bad on certain badly-designed pages. Not sure
# [18:15] <antonp> .. Question on mailing list about paused animations is interesting.
# [18:15] <antonp> krit: Cannot sync anims. Not easy to determine what to print
# [18:15] <antonp> TabAtkins: If author can control a global pause, problem goes away
# [18:16] <antonp> krit: But there is no global pause
# [18:16] * molly reminds folks that play/pause for motion is an issue in WCAG. Also, if no printed animations, we need a note for content creators to ensure any important information still makes it to the page.
# [18:16] <antonp> <Tab and krit discuss>
# [18:16] <tantek> There may are also a11y guidelines/impacts on animations, being able to pause, slow or rewind them. There may be some wai guidelines on printing animations - probably worth checking.
# [18:16] <tantek> Molly beat me to it :)
# [18:17] <cabanier> cabanier: it's reasonable that animations that are in not started but have fill-mode have their first frame honored
# [18:17] <antonp> krit: Some animations are really hard to time, if you don't have a global timing function (Which we currently don't).
# [18:17] <antonp> glazou: Ignoring the animation makes more sense. The other options are too hard at the moment.
# [18:17] <cabanier> cabanier: this is for animations that have fill-mode: backwards
# [18:17] <cabanier> cabanier: should be easy to implement
# [18:18] <antonp> Rossen: the way we print animated gifs or video, you would actually print the current frame or whatever
# [18:18] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:18] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
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# [18:18] <antonp> .. I'm not saying it's a precedent we have to follow, but there is relevant situation there.
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# [18:19] <antonp> glazou: Could this be controlled from CSS? Eg a property about how anims should print
# [18:19] <antonp> TabAtkins: User print stylesheet, turn off anims?
# [18:19] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:19] <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:19] <antonp> dbaron: If there's a right value for the static case, then authors will want to put the value in for UAs which don't support anims
# [18:20] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:20] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:20] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:20] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:20] <antonp> TabAtkins: Is there an implementation issue with snapshotting the anim at "some point close" to the time the button was pressed?
# [18:20] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:20] * {Darktears} is now known as darktears
# [18:20] * fantasai thinks we should use the fallback values
# [18:20] <antonp> krit: Can depend on the implementation itself, communication between UI and engine
# [18:21] <cabanier> who wants that?
# [18:21] <antonp> glazou: The print button in the chrome, or the print button in the dialog
# [18:21] <antonp> TabAtkins: The last one.
# [18:21] * krit cabanier I think you are allowed to call in
# [18:21] <antonp> dbaron: We could do that if we did more work, to have printing CSS code know how to copy an anim timeline from elsewhere
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# [18:21] <antonp> TabAtkins: Hmm perhaps this is more complicated than I first thought.
# [18:22] <glazou> TabAtkins, @media print ?-)
# [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins^: I thought the printing code just snapshotted the page
# [18:22] <antonp> glazou: Most reasonable option is to ignore anims. Could we say that we /may/ change it in future?
# [18:22] <antonp> dbaron: Sounds good to me
# [18:23] <antonp> .. we might even say that implementations are allowed to do something else if they want to do something more snapshotty
# [18:23] <antonp> krit: and future specs can say more about how to do that.
# [18:23] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:23] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
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# [18:24] <antonp> glazou: So minimal expectation is that animations are allowed to be ignored, and implementations are allowed to do better if the want and we might spec how to do that in future
# [18:24] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:24] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:24] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:25] <dbaron> maybe s/do better/snapshot in some way/ ?
# [18:25] <antonp> Correction of glazou: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future
# [18:25] <cabanier> so a page with animations will print differently in the future?
# [18:25] <antonp> fantasai: We don't want to imply that snapshotting is necessarily better.
# [18:26] <antonp> TabAtkins: Snapshotting takes more work than ignoring, it wasn't a question of what's better or not.
# [18:26] <Rossen> http://www.paulrhayes.com/experiments/clock/#clock
# [18:27] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'd like to print the frame that's there when you print, in that example
# [18:27] <antonp> glazou: No
# [18:27] <antonp> glazou: In print media, the anim might be there, and there might not even be a screen to "see" the anim
# [18:27] <antonp> RESOLVED: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future
# [18:28] <antonp> TOPIC: 'not', 'only' and 'and' as Media types
# [18:28] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0794.html
# [18:28] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0955.html
# [18:28] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0658.html
# [18:28] <antonp> SimonSapin: I'm in favour of blacklisting these words as media types
# [18:29] * krit never say never
# [18:29] <SimonSapin> "never ever" :)
# [18:29] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'd prefer to whitelist the types we have, and never let new ones be added
# [18:29] <antonp> .. Media types were a horrible mistake
# [18:29] <antonp> .. The only type which makes sense these days is print, which could have been a media query
# [18:29] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:29] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:30] <glazou> +1
# [18:30] <antonp> dbaron: The media types capture a set of binary characteristics. (paginated? Really small?). MEdia queries are better at handling such binary characteristics
# [18:30] <antonp> TabAtkins: Agree.
# [18:31] <antonp> dbaron: We actually agreed on a plan to add such characteristics to media queries. Florian had an action?
# [18:31] <antonp> dbaron: I agree with TabAtkins that the plan should be to not add anything in the future
# [18:31] <antonp> But it's a more limited change to just ban the specific few words
# [18:32] <tantek> agreed. media types were unfortunately dated.
# [18:32] <antonp> .. Anyone recall the error handling rules?
# [18:32] * leif sorry, I have to leave. Something came up.
# [18:32] <Zakim> -leif
# [18:32] <antonp> ??: Unknown media types evaluate to false
# [18:33] <antonp> dbaron: "screen, projecton" and misspelt projection? What do we throw away?
# [18:33] <antonp> glazou: I think we currently keep screen.
# [18:33] <antonp> dbaron: I would like to include 'or' in the discussion of these few words
# [18:34] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:34] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:34] <oyvind> "Unknown media types evaluate to false. Effectively, they are treated identically to known media types that do not match the media type of the device."
# [18:34] <antonp> RESOLVED: 'not', 'only', 'and', 'or' are invalid media types
# [18:34] <antonp> TOPIC: background-attachment: local
# [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html
# [18:35] <antonp> <fantasai explains her post>
# [18:37] <antonp> fantasai: Proposal is to clarify/change the spec to say that the background positioning area for scrollable elements with background-attachment:local is the area which scrolls and not the scroll frame.
# [18:37] <antonp> smfr: I just posted to the mailing list
# [18:37] <antonp> .. Scrollable area is not well defined
# [18:37] <antonp> .. Eg shadows affecting scrollbars etc
# [18:38] <antonp> fantasai: That's equally true for body content, btw so it's not specific to this issue
# [18:38] <antonp> <fantasai and smfr discuss>
# [18:38] <dbaron> I didn't catch fantasai's conclusion there
# [18:39] <fantasai> would pretend the scrollable area has a border with the specified border size
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# [18:39] <fantasai> 0 0 would position negatively, effectively, by that amount
# [18:39] * dbaron zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:39] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:39] <Zakim> +sgalineau
# [18:39] <antonp> dbaron: <apropos of something just mentioned> Can have multiple bg layers, in any order
# [18:40] * dbaron zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:40] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:40] <glazou> yo sylvaing
# [18:40] <sgalineau> hello mr chairman
# [18:40] <antonp> fantasai: Why does this affect positioning? We're not changing the attachment behaviour here
# [18:40] <glazou> sylvaing, lol
# [18:40] <antonp> smfr: currently bg is not scrolled with content
# [18:40] <antonp> fantasai: We're not changing that
# [18:40] <dbaron> fantasai, we're complaining about the background-attachment: local in its entirety
# [18:41] <antonp> fantasai: It moves when you scroll, that's the definition
# [18:41] <antonp> TabAtkins: We're just discussing an edge case: canvas
# [18:41] <antonp> fantasai: feature already exists and is in spec; we're discussion how you calculate
# [18:41] <antonp> fantasai: I'll propose wording which takes care of interaction with other bg properties
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# [18:42] <antonp> fantasai: General problem is that scrollable area is not defined
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# [18:43] <antonp> fantasai: <diversion comment:> There are still a handful of open issues in the spec
# [18:43] <antonp> glazou: Are we OK with the proposal?
# [18:43] <antonp> smfr: I'm OK with it
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# [18:44] <antonp> RESOLVED: background images are positioned to the scrollable area for background-attachment:local
# [18:44] <dbaron> "do what http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html says" :-)
# [18:44] <antonp> ;-)
# [18:44] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0529.html
# [18:44] <antonp> TOPIC: Color of ridge/groove/inset/outset border styles?
# [18:44] <antonp> glazou: We have no definition of how to do these things!!
# [18:44] <antonp> fantasai: Defer to level 4
# [18:44] <antonp> glazou: Then please mark it as an issue
# [18:45] * dbaron zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:45] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:45] <antonp> smfr: Ties in with 'lighter' and 'darker' colour functions that we've discussed before.
# [18:45] * sgalineau border-style bikeshedding: what could go wrong?
# [18:45] <antonp> dbaron: ridge and groove might have web-compat requirement that don't match what we'd like to do with lighter and darker
# [18:45] * glazou proposed lighter and darker back in 98 and everyone at that time replied it was impossible to specify :-)
# [18:45] * dbaron zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:45] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:45] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0638.html
# [18:45] <antonp> smfr: I think we changed ridge and groove last year, and we haven't had any feedback
# [18:46] <antonp> TOPIC: DRYing up Media Queries
# [18:46] <antonp> glazou: Wide discussion on mailing list about this
# [18:46] <antonp> TabAtkins: Boils down to fact that we do want to do something similar to the suggestion, but not right now
# [18:47] <antonp> glazou: I'm using Media Queries a lot for responsive design support in BlueGriffon
# [18:47] * smfr would like to know what DRYing is
# [18:47] * dbaron heard tab
# [18:47] * fantasai Don't Repeat Yourself
# [18:47] <smfr> ty
# [18:47] <antonp> TabAtkins: Something for level 2?
# [18:47] <dbaron> FWIW, Gecko's implementation of 3-D border colors is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/base/nsCSSColorUtils.cpp#40
# [18:47] <antonp> glazou: OK noted
# [18:47] <antonp> TOPIC: Syntax issues
# [18:48] <antonp> SimonSapin: Most is editorial
# [18:48] <antonp> SimonSapin: Two issues to discuss here
# [18:48] <SimonSapin> [css-syntax] At-rules mixed in any declaration list? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0506.html
# [18:48] <antonp> <SimonSapin explains the issue>
# [18:49] <antonp> glazou: Do we have everything ready in the OM for this proposal?
# [18:49] <antonp> TabAtkins: A few of these rule types will need to sprout child rule attributes, but that's about it
# [18:49] <antonp> SimonSapin: Answer: no we don't
# [18:50] <antonp> SimonSapin: Would like to do change in error handling as soon as possible
# [18:50] <antonp> <TabAtkins explains why he agrees with that>
# [18:51] <antonp> glazou: Do we all agree with SimonSapin's proposal?
# [18:51] <antonp> RESOLVED: Accept SimonSapin's proposal
# [18:51] <dbaron> I'm fine with the proposal -- reasonable to implement -- there's an off chance it could break something, and if it does, we'll find out.
# [18:51] <antonp> SimonSapin: syntax3 already behaves in this way... should be backport to CSS21 and CSS Style Attribute
# [18:52] <antonp> TabAtkins: yes
# [18:52] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:52] <antonp> glazou: So this will override CSS21?
# [18:52] <glazou> we have levels, not versions :-D
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# [18:52] <antonp> glazou: Let's discuss in upcoming F2F, because I'd like Bert's input
# [18:52] <SimonSapin> [CSS21][css-syntax] EOF in string and URL tokens http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0664.html
# [18:53] <antonp> SimonSapin: Next issue
# [18:53] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:53] <antonp> <SimonSapin explains the issue>
# [18:53] <antonp> glazou: My own parser makes it valid
# [18:53] <antonp> SimonSapin: So does syntax3
# [18:54] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:54] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:54] <antonp> dbaron: If a definition of variable terminates at EOF in the middle of a string, does the close quote that's implies get included in the variable value?
# [18:54] <antonp> <TabAtkins and dbaron discuss>
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# [18:55] <antonp> dbaron: I'm not crazy about this closing thing
# [18:55] <glazou> var-foo: foo("blah
# [18:56] <antonp> glazou: If EOF happens there, is it still valid?
# [18:56] <SimonSapin> glazou, third issue, if we have time: [css3-values] Syntax of attribute values for attr() http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0652.html
# [18:56] <antonp> dbaron: Should it also contain a closing ) ?? Interesting question
# [18:56] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [18:56] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [18:56] <antonp> glazou: This is a F2F topic!
# [18:57] * sgalineau will not be at the f2f <sadface>
# [18:57] <dbaron> I'm not sure I'm going to be able to review syntax by that deadline.
# [18:57] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'll be asking for FPWD of syntax at F2F! *Please* be prepared!!
# [18:57] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [18:57] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [18:57] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0668.html
# [18:57] <antonp> TOPIC: Principles behind the outline properties
# [18:58] <antonp> dbaron: I don't think this needs meeting time right now, but pls read message and respond!
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# [18:58] <antonp> glazou: This is related to bounding box etc; makes a good F2F topic
# [18:58] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:58] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:58] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
# [18:58] <antonp> TOPIC: Safe passage to Tokyo!!
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:58] <Zakim> -darktears
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Plh
# [18:58] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:58] <Zakim> -sgalineau
# [18:58] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:58] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:58] <Zakim> -antonp
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# [18:59] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:59] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [18:59] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
# [18:59] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:59] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Also: anyone have good recommendations for Tokyo hotel? I haven't booked mine yet.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:59] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Need to do so today, since I'll arrive on Sunday.
# [19:00] <dbaron> SimonSapin, I just added 3 agenda items to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2013
# [19:00] <glazou> TabAtkins, I am staying at the celestine with the W3C discount, not sure there is still rooms available, ask plh ?
# [19:00] <dbaron> well, my first CSS telecon at midnight-1am wasn't as bad as I thought
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> plh: Yo, any rooms available at the celestine still?
# [19:01] <SimonSapin> dbaron, good, thanks
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Heh, thanks for coming. Calls without you are much less useful. ^_^
# [19:01] <plh> hu, dunno
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# [19:03] <TabAtkins> plh: Should I call, or are you checking it yourself?
# [19:03] <plh> I just walked to see if our admin person is around and she is not
# [19:04] <plh> so I don't have the info
# [19:04] <dbaron> also, how bad was the noise from my softphone when I was unmuted?
# [19:04] <plh> I suggest you call
# [19:04] <plh> dbaron, your phone was fine as far as I was able to tell
# [19:04] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P29, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were fantasai, glazou, dbaron, glenn, Stearns, Rossen, SimonSapin, smfr, Plh, antonp, +1.619.846.aaaa, leif, nvdbleek, hober, rhauck, BradK, SteveZ, TabAtkins_,
# [19:04] <Zakim> ... darktears, [Microsoft], MaRakow, sgalineau
# [19:05] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I'm probably staying at "the b roppongi", which a bunch of people are staying at
# [19:05] <dbaron> TabAtkins, relatively inexpensive, I think
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I like staying where other people are staying!
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> dbaron, plh: Thanks, I'll check things out.
# [19:05] <dbaron> TabAtkins, see http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2013 for where others are
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# [19:09] <cabanier> TabAtkins: the b roppongi is cheap and you can get the men's package: Breakfast, Shoe cleaner, Face wipes, Breath mint strips, Deodorant spray for clothes and Carry pouch.
# [19:09] <cabanier> TabAtkins: "the ideal kit for men who travel for business or leisure!"
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> That doesn't sound half bad. ^_^
# [19:10] <sgalineau> Shoe cleaner? TabAtkins doesn't need any shoe cleaner!
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Hey, I wear shoes when I suit up!
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Which, admittedly, I won't be doing in Japan.
# [19:10] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: check soon, the b roppongi had no room for my dates (arriving saturday)
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> (Still kinda considering taking a suit to Amsterdam, but given my history of getting too drunk there, that's probably not a good idea.)
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hrm, I'm arriving Sunday. I'll check when I get into the office.
# [19:11] <sgalineau> I honestly wonder what the local perception of sandals/shoelessness is.
# [19:11] * Ms2ger imagines TabAtkins sitting in a CSSWG meeting with bare, hobbit-hairy feet on the desk
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Not on the desk. I have *some* respect for other people.
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> Also, that's where my computer is.
# [19:12] <sgalineau> lol
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> We're usually packed pretty tight.
# [19:13] <sgalineau> yeah the days of 12-people CSSWG meetings are long gone
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# [19:16] <sgalineau> TabAtkins, Google not taking position on the new HTML charter?
# [19:19] <liam> sgalineau, since Japanese people take off shoes indoors, it doesn't seem to be a problem, but I've had some odd looks outside. Although I get those everywhere, and I don't look very Japanese. Not had any problems in Japan so far though.
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# [19:36] <TabAtkins> sgalineau: No clue. Obviously I'm strongly in favor.
# [19:37] <sgalineau> TabAtkins: ping your AC. I think you guys are the only major browser vendor left who hasn't voted yet. Seems odd.
# [19:37] <TabAtkins> kk
# [19:37] <sgalineau> deadline is today, midnight EST
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# [20:34] <tantek> sgalineau do you have URLs to the other browser vendors' statements/votes on the new HTML charter? I'm assuming these are in some member-only list. :(
# [20:35] <tantek> except for dbaron's statement of course: http://dbaron.org/log/20130522-w3c-licensing
# [20:35] <Ms2ger> Yep
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/html-charter-2013-2/results
# [20:48] <tantek> interesting. some of the objections I can sympathize with, i.e. anything that prefers that the discussions happen in the public instead, even deliberating over which open license choice.
# [20:49] <tantek> sadly looks like this is still a member-only page
# [20:49] <tantek> so of course, those objections (about preferring more open discussions) are a bit ironic in a member-only venue
# [20:49] <tantek> we have to fix this
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# [21:00] <tantek> TabAtkins - preferably get your AC rep to make a public blog post on it.
# [21:01] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# [21:10] <sgalineau> tantek, only looking at the link Ms2ger posted.
# [21:14] <tantek> sgalineau - what do you mean?
# [21:15] <sgalineau> tantek: you asked for URLs to public statements; I don't have any. I was only looking at the poll result link Ms2ger linked to above.
# [21:16] <tantek> sgalineau - yeah, I didn't expect any. It's sad.
# [21:16] <tantek> so broken
# [21:17] <sgalineau> you think these positions wouldn't be taken if they were public?
# [21:18] <sgalineau> or you just don't see the point of hiding it?
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# [21:23] <tantek> sgalineau - neither
# [21:23] <tantek> I think we have a better chance of making broader cross-company progress if we discuss things publicly
# [21:24] <tantek> I would love to blog about some of the objections and openly state some options for resolving some of them and moving forward at least incrementally
# [21:27] <plh> Tantek, I would certainly welcome your input
# [21:28] <tantek> plh - my first input is, please personally email each of the AC Reps who filed objections of any sort (whether formal, or just suggested changes), and ask them to email the exact text of their objection/changes text to www-archive.
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# [21:28] <tantek> (or blog it)
# [21:29] <tantek> (would prefer blog posts on their own domains, but ok with www-archive)
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# [21:32] <sgalineau> check; I agree with the sentiment.
# [21:32] <sgalineau> Also, I never followed one of these closely before but I'm a bit annoyed with the fact that no vote in support comes with comments; while the votes against come with some explanation.
# [21:32] <sgalineau> I wish all votes came with some level of thoughtful feedback.
# [21:33] <sgalineau> it'd be nice to know what people are in favor of and why; not just what a few are against.
# [21:34] <sgalineau> not sure how to fix that though; though I suppose a public debate may prod folks into articulating their support
# [21:34] <Ms2ger> Perhaps people feel that the arguments in favour have already been show sufficiently in the public domain
# [21:35] <sgalineau> it's a vote on a specific charter text
# [21:35] <sgalineau> arguments explaining why this text, as written, is the right one, have not 'been shown sufficiently'.
# [21:36] <Ms2ger> Or maybe people simply don't care anymore what garbage the HTMLWG puts out
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# [21:36] <Ms2ger> I dunno, I'm not them
# [21:37] <sgalineau> right; that's kinda of my point. most votes are in favor, and except for a few like David who explained why publicly I have no idea what kind of support is actually there.
# [21:39] <sgalineau> one could of course assume that all the yays simply agree with David; but, for the most part, I actually have no idea. that's too bad.
# [21:39] <Ms2ger> If it were me, I'd vote against because I don't think the HTMLWG has done anything useful in the last five years or so
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# [21:39] <Ms2ger> If I'd vote, I'd probably not bother
# [21:40] <sgalineau> well, that's a different debate....
# [21:40] <Ms2ger> One which I'm not going to spend more time on either :)
# [21:41] <Ms2ger> Anyway, more discussion in public is good, I guess
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# [23:03] <krit> rhauck: plinss: Is there a test suite to test cross origin policies?
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# [23:06] <plinss> krit: not in our repo, if there is one it'll be in: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests (one would hope)
# [23:07] <krit> plinss: I'll take a look. Thanks
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# [23:32] <tantek> Thanks Ms2ger, appreciate the "more discussion in public is good" support, even if it is "I guess".
# [23:32] <tantek> culture change is hard
# [23:32] <tantek> but doable
# [23:32] <tantek> we've done it before (e.g. CSSWG), we can do it again
# [23:33] <tantek> the more that any standards discussions anywhere are open, the more we can build on each others work in a massively distributed fashion and hopefully avoid repeating mistakes, be more efficient, make progress faster, etc.
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# Session Close: Thu May 30 00:00:00 2013

The end :)