/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 26 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  9. # [01:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, my review of the parts of css-syntax I wanted to review is on www-style now, and I'm happy with doing an FPWD; sorry for taking so long to get to it
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  20. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Your current text, using tokens, is fine. "Component values" are a closely related concept - most tokens are component values, but not all (none of the ones you use are affected), and there are some component values that aren't tokens (functions, blocks).
  21. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: What kind of .warning style do you want?
  22. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> dbaron: That's cool, I'm just happy you finally got to it. ^_^
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  28. # [03:20] <fantasai> krit: I really appreciate you making the effort to fix up missing bits of things you said for the minutes
  29. # [03:21] * fantasai is inlining these fixes atm
  30. # [03:21] <fantasai> It's nice not to have [stuff] in the minutes :)
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  35. # [04:21] <krit> fantasai: hehe, thanks for fixing the minutes :)
  36. # [04:22] <krit> fantasai: btw, shouldn't the minute tool fix this automatically on regexps?
  37. # [04:22] <liam> if rrsagent is used then ,minutes will indeed apply s/// substitutions
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  107. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/26-css-irc
  108. # [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  109. # [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
  110. # [17:25] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  111. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  112. # [17:25] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0606.html'
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  120. # [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  121. # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P0
  122. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  123. # [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  124. # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  125. # [17:56] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  126. # [17:56] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  127. # [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  128. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has krit
  129. # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  130. # [17:57] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  131. # [17:57] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  132. # [17:57] <Zakim> +Plh
  133. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has rhauck
  134. # [17:57] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
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  137. # [17:58] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  138. # [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss
  139. # [17:59] <Zakim> +BradK
  140. # [17:59] * Joins: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak)
  141. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
  142. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aabb
  143. # [17:59] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  144. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is bkardell
  145. # [17:59] <Zakim> +bkardell; got it
  146. # [18:00] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  147. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
  148. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  149. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  150. # [18:00] <jerenkrantz_> Zakim: aacc is me
  151. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aadd
  152. # [18:00] * Joins: shezbaig_wk (~kvirc@public.cloak)
  153. # [18:00] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  154. # [18:00] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  155. # [18:00] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
  156. # [18:00] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  157. # [18:00] <leif> Zakim, I am aadd
  158. # [18:00] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  159. # [18:00] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  160. # [18:00] <plinss> bkardell: also you should do this: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
  161. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  162. # [18:01] <jerenkrantz_> Zakim: aacc is jerenkrantz
  163. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaee
  164. # [18:01] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (68%), [IPcaller] (43%)
  165. # [18:01] <dael> Zakim, aaee is me
  166. # [18:01] <Zakim> +dael; got it
  167. # [18:01] <Zakim> +smfr
  168. # [18:01] <bkardell> plinss: done
  169. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaff
  170. # [18:01] <jerenkrantz_> Zakim, aacc is jerenkrantz
  171. # [18:01] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  172. # [18:01] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  173. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  174. # [18:01] <shezbaig_wk> zakim, aaff is me
  175. # [18:01] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
  176. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P42
  177. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P42 is SimonSapin
  178. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  180. # [18:02] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
  181. # [18:02] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
  182. # [18:02] <fantasai> oops
  183. # [18:02] * fantasai clicked hang up instead of mute
  184. # [18:03] <glazou> eheh bad UI ?
  185. # [18:03] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  186. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aagg
  187. # [18:03] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  188. # [18:03] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
  189. # [18:03] <bkardell> I am happy to say none of these are the noob
  190. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, aagg is sylvaing
  191. # [18:03] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  192. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  193. # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (55%), dael (61%), BradK (4%), sylvaing (98%)
  194. # [18:03] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
  195. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, mute sylvaing
  196. # [18:03] <Zakim> sylvaing should now be muted
  197. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  198. # [18:03] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  199. # [18:04] <glazou> sylvaing, you muted on your end, right ?
  200. # [18:04] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  201. # [18:04] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
  202. # [18:04] <fantasai> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
  203. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  204. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, unmute sylvaing
  205. # [18:04] <Zakim> sylvaing should no longer be muted
  206. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  207. # [18:05] * Joins: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak)
  208. # [18:05] <koji> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
  209. # [18:05] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  210. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  211. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, Plh, plinss, BradK, Stearns, bkardell, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], jdaggett, leif, dael, smfr, shezbaig_wk, SimonSapin, sylvaing,
  212. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... shezbaig_wk.a, fantasai, nvdbleek (muted), koji
  213. # [18:05] <Zakim> +1.415.832.aaaa has rhauck
  214. # [18:05] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  215. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
  216. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> glazou: extra items?
  217. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> Topic: Fonts LC
  218. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Tantek
  219. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: had lots of comments
  220. # [18:06] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  221. # [18:06] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  222. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: 2 issues
  223. # [18:06] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  224. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: OM of @font-feature-values, waiting on a new piece of WebIDL
  225. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: as is Varibales
  226. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Second issue: font-size-adjust vs. em/ex/ch units
  227. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  228. # [18:07] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
  229. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  230. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: ask for LC next tuesday, resolve issues during LC period
  231. # [18:07] * Joins: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  232. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  233. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> fantasai: would like to resolve unit issue now
  234. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> glazou: are you ok for LC if we do that?
  235. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes
  236. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> glazou: other opinions?
  237. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
  238. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P83
  239. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> zakim, P83 is me
  240. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'P83'
  241. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> glazou: being heavy user of the OM I’m worried about that issue
  242. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> zakim, ??P83 is me
  243. # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  244. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> glazou: LC means almost finished, dealing with issue after LC is weird
  245. # [18:09] * Joins: cpalmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak)
  246. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> glazou: but don’t want to block
  247. # [18:09] * fantasai tab, you're cuttin gout
  248. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: relies on Map… struct, not defined yet in WebIDL
  249. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: heycam promised it this week
  250. # [18:10] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  251. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> glazou: within a week we should resolve issues?
  252. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: yes
  253. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> glazou: Then I withdraw my concern
  254. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> glazou: Other opinions?
  255. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Fonts LC after resolving the 2 issues
  256. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> glazou, is that right?
  257. # [18:11] * Quits: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  258. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0517.html
  259. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue in computing ch/em/ex unit with font-size-adjust
  260. # [18:11] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  261. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0590.html
  262. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal is: ex/ch computed against the used font size, with metrics
  263. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: accounting for font-size-adjust and other things/substitutions
  264. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we really want to match the glyphs; need font data anyway, might as well account for everything we can
  265. # [18:13] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
  266. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: em could go either way, either use the used size like ex, or just use the computed font-size
  267. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: computed might not be a problems, some fonts go outside of the used em-box anyway
  268. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> dbaron: would prefer to stick with what 2.1 says: em is computed font-size
  269. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: … used-value time units … ?
  270. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> dbaron: you need font data for ex
  271. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> dbaron: want to respond to downloadable font, but keep the units computed-value-time
  272. # [18:16] <dbaron> dbaron: The computed value changes when the font loads.
  273. # [18:16] * Rossen agrees with dbaron
  274. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> florian: could you clarify why?
  275. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> dbaron: complicating the space of computed value is a huge complexity
  276. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> dbaron: changing all properties with length units
  277. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> dbaron: lot of implementation work
  278. # [18:17] * tantek agrees regarding the complexity problem that dbaron mentioned.
  279. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: happy with this if you are
  280. # [18:17] * dbaron is having trouble hearing SimonSapin because it's echoey
  281. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: we already rejected making vh/vw used-value-time for the same reasons
  282. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: not quite the same reasons
  283. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: viewport units decision was clearer because of dependency on layout
  284. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: depending on downloaded resources is a greyer area
  285. # [18:19] <Zakim> -BradK
  286. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: summary: 2 points to resolve on
  287. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 1. em units remain = to computed font-size
  288. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> I agree
  289. # [18:20] <bkardell> I agree
  290. # [18:20] <Zakim> +BradK
  291. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2. ex/ch units relative to the metrics of the 1st available font
  292. # [18:20] <SteveZ> +1
  293. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: used value of that metric
  294. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: requires update to css-values
  295. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes, will do
  296. # [18:20] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  297. # [18:21] <dbaron> May be worth mentioning that TPAC registration is open: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0138.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0140.html
  298. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: ML comment: ex has no character for input to font matching algo
  299. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: that’s in css-fonts now, css-values only need to use that
  300. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> glazou: do we all agree of the two parts? objections?
  301. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: adopt fantasai’s proposal
  302. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> glazou: provided the other issue is resolved, Fonts go to LC
  303. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: defer the ... issue to next week
  304. # [18:22] * plh notes that we're hoping to deploy a new module on zakim in the upcoming days, resolving the capacity issue, especially at the start of css/dnt calls
  305. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> Topic: CSS3 Text
  306. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0263.html
  307. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: interaction of text-align and text-align-???
  308. # [18:23] <glazou> plh, and resolve better phone numbers ?-)
  309. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> s/???/last/
  310. # [18:23] * plh glazou, we have no control on that. we only get them from the network.
  311. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 1 rule to justify the last line, other rule to center all
  312. # [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  313. # [18:24] <glazou> plh, sigh
  314. # [18:24] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (5%), fantasai (66%)
  315. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: [explains as in the email]
  316. # [18:25] * glazou agrees 100% with fantasai 's suggestion
  317. # [18:25] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  318. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: people expect text-align-list to be a longhand of text-align, it’s not
  319. # [18:25] * glazou please ask people speaking in background to be less noisy
  320. # [18:25] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  321. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: making it a shorthand can break existing content if the shorthand is set just after
  322. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: backward-compat concern, -last shipped in IE6
  323. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> Rossen: want to know the syntax to run queries against db of existing content
  324. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> Rossen: expect usage to be none, but will check
  325. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> glazou: only engine shipping it?
  326. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> s/to be none/not to be none/
  327. # [18:27] * dbaron drops off for a few minutes
  328. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dbaron
  329. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Mozilla to
  330. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> s/to/too/
  331. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: only a problem in one particular order
  332. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern with Chinise/Japanese typically use text-align-last: justify
  333. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: having it apply only with 'justify' makes sense when you turn it off and specify 'center' afterwards
  334. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: much more frequent than you might think
  335. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal to add a justify-all value
  336. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: people on this call are not the ones actually using it
  337. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> stearns: use case to set text-align-last justify when text-align is not justify?
  338. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: not sure
  339. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: chinese typically all
  340. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> stearns: IE solution to have it only apply ??? makes sense
  341. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> stearns: Don’t the complexity of this proposal if we standardize on IE’s behavior
  342. # [18:31] <stearns> s/???/when text-align is justify/
  343. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> glazou: two proposals here, what do people think?
  344. # [18:31] <Zakim> +dbaron
  345. # [18:31] * Quits: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  346. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> Rossen: when would you use it? other than text-align : justify
  347. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> florian: sounds at least unusual
  348. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> stearns: use case unusual, not sure properties are really separate
  349. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> stearns: letter-spacing eg. changes justification
  350. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> stearns: this wouldn’t be the only case of depending on another property having another value
  351. # [18:33] * fantasai occasionally writes with start alignment, but end-aligns the last line
  352. # [18:33] * fantasai on whiteboards and things
  353. # [18:33] * glazou yes but fantasai is the human counter-example we needed in the csswg ;-)
  354. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Rossen: [editorial comment]
  355. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> :/
  356. # [18:34] <dbaron> Rossen said he'd prefer backwards compan
  357. # [18:34] <dbaron> compat
  358. # [18:34] <SteveZ> rosen: if we were starting fresh then we should have just one property with an optional value for "last line"
  359. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Rossen: so what are we doing with this property?
  360. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> glazou: depencencies between properties are weird, but backward compat is valuable too
  361. # [18:35] <SteveZ> rosen: But, we have two shipping implementations that use two properties
  362. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> Rossen: we’re certainly gonna keep supporting what we have
  363. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> Rossen: the property is not new
  364. # [18:36] * glazou and that's again the fault of IE ;-)
  365. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> Rossen: it would have been better to specify this as a value, but it’s been out for years
  366. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> glazou: decide that we are waiting for your numbers?
  367. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> glazou: if there is little usage, there is an impact
  368. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how do you define "little"? relative to language, …
  369. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> Rossen: also, what kind of data to mine
  370. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> Rossen: gonna do it against web content, but expect more usage in Word docs converted to HTML
  371. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> koji: it doesn’t use this property, it uses other MS extensions
  372. # [18:37] <fantasai> koji: As far as I tested Word 2010, it export to HTML doesn't use this property
  373. # [18:38] <BradK> I like 'text-align: justify all' that would override 'text-align-last: <whatever>'.
  374. # [18:38] <fantasai> It uses 'text-justify: distribute-all-lines'
  375. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> fantasai: which is not in any spec of ours
  376. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> Rossen: yeah, we have this one
  377. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> glazou: what do we do?
  378. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> florian: if triggered by text-align: justify, don’t we have what we want?
  379. # [18:39] <koji> Word 2013 uses "text-align:justify;text-justify:distribute-all-lines"
  380. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> (let’s rename it to distribute-all-the-lines)
  381. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> glazou: don’t know what to do, it’s up to implementers
  382. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> dbaron: people worried about compat should check
  383. # [18:40] <fantasai> Simon, it's a different property
  384. # [18:40] <fantasai> renaming it won't fix anything
  385. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> Rossen: Word docs are harder to mine
  386. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: Word does not use this
  387. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> Rossen: 2013 yes, previous versions unknown
  388. # [18:41] <bkardell> is it plausible that corp IT environments that standardized on IE way back might have this? You wouldnt be able to mine that either, right?
  389. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> Rossen: by next week will have data
  390. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> glazou: defer resolution to next week?
  391. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> Rossen: ok with that
  392. # [18:42] <BradK> Converted-to-html word documents are a blight on the Internet
  393. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> Rossen: we are not gonna back out this property
  394. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> glazou: this data only breaking if translating to HTML?
  395. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> Rossen: with Sharepoint presenting everything as HTML, it’s not that rare
  396. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue only if the order is text-align-last then text-align
  397. # [18:43] * glazou notes SteveZ and fantasai pronounce either in two different ways :-D
  398. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: If Word is emitting text-align first, then there is no problem
  399. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> glazou: let’s wait for the data, revisit next week
  400. # [18:44] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
  401. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> Topic: Allowing 'letter-spacing: <length>' to justify
  402. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> fantasai: current rules prevent justification when letter-spacing is not normal
  403. # [18:45] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  404. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai: avoid this we allow justification for length, and have normal be 0
  405. # [18:45] <fantasai> s/be/compute to/
  406. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> jdaggett asks clarification
  407. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no letter-spacing value would constrain justification
  408. # [18:46] <liam> [I can't call in because of noise here but note that letterspacing should not normally be used for justification in non-newspaper texts even in English (and obviously never for German)]
  409. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: justification should just be additional spacing, not proportional
  410. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: only apply to text-justify: distribute, right?
  411. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> fantasai: also 'auto', in CJK text
  412. # [18:47] <SimonSapin> liam, so there should be a way to prevent letter spacing as justification?
  413. # [18:47] <liam> the default should be, do not use letter spacing for justification
  414. # [18:47] <stearns> +1 to fantasai's solution
  415. # [18:47] <SimonSapin> glazou: comments?
  416. # [18:48] <liam> it considerably reduces comprehension when letterspacing is uneven
  417. # [18:48] <fantasai> liam, the default is already to allow letter-spacing for justification
  418. # [18:48] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: if I set letter-spacing:0 I do not get letter spacing for justify
  419. # [18:48] <liam> then that's broken, but at the very least there needs to be a way to disable it
  420. # [18:48] <SimonSapin> fantasai: currently yes, but there are documents that require otherwise
  421. # [18:48] <SimonSapin> stearns: proposal: set "0 fixed" to disable justification
  422. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: letter-spacing: 0 currently does not allow justification per spec, but implementations don't follow
  423. # [18:49] * krit 0 fixed to turn of justice .. justification
  424. # [18:49] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: just a question of existing impl or deeper?
  425. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: both
  426. # [18:50] <BradK> Would letter-spacing be a minimal value for justification?
  427. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t have a way to ???
  428. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: current rules prevent justification if you also have tracking
  429. # [18:50] <stearns> BradK: yes, it would set a minimum, but could be increased by justification
  430. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: this would allow tracking and also allow justification
  431. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: which the current spec does not allow
  432. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: more consistent with word-spacing
  433. # [18:51] * krit What happened to the Text TF ?
  434. # [18:51] <BradK> Alan, that seems reasonable.
  435. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: solving problems + gain consistency
  436. # [18:51] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  437. # [18:51] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  438. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: loosing ability to disable justification in letter spacing, but could add a keyword for that
  439. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: bothered by letter-spacing applying to CJK
  440. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: why?
  441. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: because CJK are different from letters, hiragana makes it messy
  442. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t want a separate property for each script
  443. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: part of the problem is making it work in a situation where letter spacing was not intended to work
  444. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: not sure this makes sense
  445. # [18:53] <bkardell> maybe we can punt this back to the list until next week and move on with other items?
  446. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: some want to distribute space
  447. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in other cases they don’t
  448. # [18:53] * fantasai it's been on the list for a long time, nobody has commented
  449. # [18:54] * liam has been meaning to follow up on the list, sorry
  450. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern: making letter-spacing work for CJK will have bad side-effets where it’s unexpected
  451. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> fantasai: it has always worked
  452. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issue is whether using letter-spacing prop disables justification
  453. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: latin users would expect to disable justification
  454. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: that’s why mixing them is a problem
  455. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: given that word-spacing does not disable justification, don’t understand why you expect that
  456. # [18:56] * liam agrees Japanese (and probably C & K) very different from Latin script for letter spacing. Letter spacing disabled should not disable justification in latin scripts but obviously should for cjk
  457. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: letter-spacing is much less frequently used
  458. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: precise adjustments, don’t want justification in that context
  459. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> fantasai: would like to solve the problem we have here, and add control for disabling justification or not later
  460. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: users that expect justification disabled are surprised
  461. # [18:57] <tantek> I think for further progress on this it will have to go to email or IRC
  462. # [18:57] <liam> [sample use case, long legal contract all in caps/small-caps with letterspacing]
  463. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> fantasai: implementations don’t do justification between latin letters
  464. # [18:57] <tantek> re: use-cases for suppressing letter-spacing and/or justification
  465. # [18:57] <BradK> If people don't want justification with their letter-spacing, they can just use text-align to turn off justification
  466. # [18:57] <glazou> tantek, we only have 1min on the call
  467. # [18:58] <glazou> but yes
  468. # [18:58] <tantek> glazou exactly
  469. # [18:58] <dbaron> fantasai: we don't have content that ... because implementations don't ..., but we do have content that specifies letter-spacing:0 and expects CJK text to justify
  470. # [18:58] <SimonSapin> glazou: defer to email
  471. # [18:59] <SimonSapin> fantasai: are people gonna participate? been open on the list for a long time
  472. # [18:59] <tantek> sounds like some actions
  473. # [18:59] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: yes, will discuss on email
  474. # [18:59] <dbaron> TPAC registration is open: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0138.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0140.html
  475. # [19:00] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  476. # [19:00] <Zakim> -dbaron
  477. # [19:00] <Zakim> -smfr
  478. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Plh
  479. # [19:00] <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
  480. # [19:00] <Zakim> -leif
  481. # [19:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  482. # [19:00] <Zakim> -bkardell
  483. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  484. # [19:00] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
  485. # [19:00] <glazou> florian, je reste
  486. # [19:00] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  487. # [19:00] <Zakim> -dael
  488. # [19:00] <Zakim> -BradK
  489. # [19:00] <Zakim> -koji
  490. # [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
  491. # [19:00] * Parts: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  492. # [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
  493. # [19:00] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  494. # [19:00] * Parts: jerenkrantz_ (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  495. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  496. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Stearns
  497. # [19:00] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  498. # [19:00] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaaa
  499. # [19:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  500. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Tantek
  501. # [19:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  502. # [19:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, shezbaig_wk, TabAtkins
  503. # [19:00] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
  504. # [19:00] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  505. # [19:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  506. # [19:00] * Quits: cpalmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak) ("")
  507. # [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
  508. # [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  509. # [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, krit, Plh, rhauck, plinss, BradK, Stearns, +1.520.280.aabb, bkardell, +1.212.318.aacc, +47.23.69.aadd, florian, jdaggett, leif, +1.610.324.aaee, dael, smfr,
  510. # [19:00] <Zakim> ... +1.212.318.aaff, jerenkrantz, shezbaig_wk, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, +1.206.675.aagg, sylvaing, nvdbleek, fantasai, koji, Tantek, Rossen, SteveZ, dbaron, TabAtkins
  511. # [19:01] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  512. # [19:02] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  513. # [19:02] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  514. # [19:03] * Quits: shezbaig_wk (~kvirc@public.cloak) ("KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/")
  515. # [19:06] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  516. # [19:06] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  517. # [19:10] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
  518. # [19:18] * Quits: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  519. # [19:21] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  520. # [19:25] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
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  524. # [19:47] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  526. # [20:10] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  527. # [20:37] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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  530. # [20:54] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
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  532. # [20:55] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  533. # [20:57] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
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  535. # [21:09] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  536. # [21:15] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  537. # [21:22] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  538. # [21:22] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  539. # [21:25] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  540. # [21:38] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  541. # [21:47] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
  542. # [21:50] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  543. # [21:52] <stearns> fantasai: TabAtkins: sanity check - allowing 'letter-spacing: 0 fixed' does not disallow 'letter-spacing: -1 0 1' for min/desired/max later, correct?
  544. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  545. # [21:56] * liam right now wants house-workman-spacing so they don't all arrive at the same time
  546. # [21:57] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  547. # [22:00] <stearns> liam: I disagree with your assertion earlier that letterspacing shouldn't be used for justification in non-newspaper English, btw.
  548. # [22:00] <stearns> liam: it just should be used much much less than word spacing
  549. # [22:03] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
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  552. # [22:14] <fantasai> stearns: yeah, no problem
  553. # [22:16] <liam> stearns, yes, I'm fine with "much less"
  554. # [22:16] <liam> (except in languages where it's used for emphasis)
  555. # [22:16] <stearns> liam: agreed. And I'd argue that newspapers are doing it wrong :)
  556. # [22:17] <liam> :)
  557. # [22:17] <liam> possibly depends on the paper although also on whatever the defaults were for Atex
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  564. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Woo! After two days of bugfixing the processor, I can confirm that you can switch to my new preprocessor from Bert's with no changes needed other than deleting the existing header/footer boilerplate, and adding a metadata block.
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  566. # [23:02] <stearns> TabAtkins: grats
  567. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> I'm also pretty sure I've squashed all the unicode bugs, so there's that.
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  569. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Of course, now I'm making all the changes to the Syntax source that I wrote the preprocessor for. But it's nice to know that it's a drop-in replacement. ^_^
  570. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> (I was forced to switch off of Bert's for Syntax, because Bert's processor decided that <pre>s aren't allowed to contain <a>s.
  571. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> )
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  579. # Session Close: Thu Jun 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)