/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-07-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 03 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  32. # [08:29] <dbaron> fantasai, you just sent minutes for Thursday the 6th, Friday the 6th, and Friday the 7th
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  36. # [08:45] <fantasai> oh
  37. # [08:46] <fantasai> sorry...
  38. # [08:46] <fantasai> wow, the subjects are really inconsistent...
  39. # [08:46] * fantasai tries to do them together to avoid that, but clearly failing...
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  73. # [17:11] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/03-css-irc
  74. # [17:11] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  75. # [17:11] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
  76. # [17:11] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  77. # [17:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  78. # [17:12] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0061.html'
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  89. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  90. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P20
  91. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me
  92. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  93. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Krit
  94. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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  98. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  99. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P28
  100. # [18:02] <leif> Zakim, I am P28
  101. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, leif, I do not see a party named 'P28'
  102. # [18:02] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  103. # [18:02] <glazou> leif, your phone is super-noisy...
  104. # [18:03] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P28
  105. # [18:03] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  106. # [18:03] <leif> Zakim, mute me
  107. # [18:03] <Zakim> leif should now be muted
  108. # [18:03] <glazou> yep that was your phone, thanks leif
  109. # [18:03] <leif> argh, I thought it would be fixed if I just muted on my end
  110. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
  111. # [18:03] <leif> time try ditch Ekiga, I think
  112. # [18:03] <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
  113. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dael; got it
  114. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  115. # [18:03] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  116. # [18:03] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  117. # [18:04] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
  118. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +93192aabb
  119. # [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, aabb is me
  120. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  121. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Lea
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  123. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P53
  124. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> Zakim, P53 is me
  125. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named 'P53'
  126. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P53 is me
  127. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  128. # [18:05] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  129. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
  130. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
  131. # [18:05] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  132. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  133. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  134. # [18:06] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (38%), [IPcaller] (21%), antonp (9%), ??P59 (60%)
  135. # [18:06] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  136. # [18:06] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  137. # [18:06] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
  138. # [18:06] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  139. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P9
  140. # [18:06] <Zakim> -??P9
  141. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P9
  142. # [18:07] <glenn> zakim, ??p9 is me
  143. # [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  144. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  145. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
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  149. # [18:08] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  150. # [18:08] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  151. # [18:08] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  152. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aadd
  153. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
  154. # [18:09] <Zakim> +smfr
  155. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaee
  156. # [18:09] <jerenkrantz_> Zakim, aaee is jerenkrantz
  157. # [18:09] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  158. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> Topic: CSSMatrix review
  159. # [18:09] <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
  160. # [18:09] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  161. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> krit: SVGMatrix is 2D. With transforms, we need 3D
  162. # [18:10] * glazou could use that 3D matrix right away in his own code !!!
  163. # [18:10] * Joins: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak)
  164. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> krit: discussed having a CSSMatrix interface, unified between specs
  165. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> krit: asking for FPWD. Concerns/discussion to the ML
  166. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  167. # [18:10] <koji> zakim, ipcalle.a is me
  168. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcalle.a'
  169. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> Topic: I18N / Text issues
  170. # [18:11] <Zakim> +dbaron
  171. # [18:11] <koji> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
  172. # [18:11] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  173. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P73
  174. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> plinss: follow up on text-align-last
  175. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> zakim, ??p73 is me
  176. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  177. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ??? is not on the call, defer
  178. # [18:12] <smfr> s/???/rossen
  179. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> Topic: Writing modes
  180. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ML discussion with jdagget
  181. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: jdagget’s proposal for exact rules of resizing. Spec says UA-defined
  182. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Put his algo as an example, eg. examples of things that could go wrong
  183. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: but leave normative text as UA-defined, leave leeway
  184. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P75
  185. # [18:13] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  186. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: UA could give better results than this exact algorithm
  187. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Koji and I want to allow better results
  188. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: but want to make sure it’s at least "good". Having an example algo is a good way to do that
  189. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> florian: how to add controls in future levels on UA-defined behavior?
  190. # [18:15] * dbaron notes fantasai is very loud
  191. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Plan is to have text-compression-switch, where the default is auto
  192. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> florian: some switches match auto
  193. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> florian: worried about "do what you want auto", if one UA is dominant, hopefully it’s not too broken
  194. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> florian: content will depend on the de-facto meaning of auto
  195. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we have an example in the spec, most UAs will follow that and then try to do better
  196. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Bert
  197. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> fantasai: example is not complicated
  198. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> florian: would be nice to have tests for this non-normative description
  199. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we can have "may" tests
  200. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> fantasai: tests specific to OpenType, specific fonts
  201. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: with clear examples, impl will follow
  202. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern: dealing with 2 things. auto is used to do the right thing for the normal case, bunch of features separately
  203. # [18:18] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  204. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: example: full-size latin letter different than latin letters, without markup
  205. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: there, clear algorithm
  206. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: here, auto is you can do possibly better than this
  207. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: different use of auto
  208. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: not sure you really want auto
  209. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: it is automagic
  210. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: users complain without the magic
  211. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: people want to do what the users expect
  212. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: to way to have this is normative text and test cases
  213. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: examples are nice but … we trip over automagic
  214. # [18:20] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  215. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: don’t expect lock-in in this case
  216. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if you do a good job, no need to match against anything else
  217. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if it looks bad, you’re just gonna not use the feature
  218. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no option to tweak the layout
  219. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> fantasai: enable tatechyu?? or not
  220. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no effect on the rest of the layout
  221. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: still uncomfortable about undefined automagic
  222. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> koji: discussing rendering quality, doesn’t matter much
  223. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> florian: little uncomfortable, but can go with this
  224. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> plinss: jdagget seems to have concerns with this. Can you summarize?
  225. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: he’s concerned that impl. will do worse because the can normatively
  226. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> s/the/they/
  227. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we want examples of "don’t do this"
  228. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> plinss: normative restrictions? "Can do better, but don’t do this"
  229. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> florian: limited normative requirements
  230. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> plinss: problem is defining "better"
  231. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> plinss: objections?
  232. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal is: normative prose says "UA-defined how the compression happens, but must transform full-width and ??? before you do any scaling"
  233. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: then add an example algo
  234. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: and suggestions to do better
  235. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: require transforming at least full-width
  236. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: example of what people expect. Can do simpler, can do smarter, but don’t do this that looks bad
  237. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: accepted the above proposal
  238. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> Topic: Text decoration
  239. # [18:27] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  240. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> plinss: issue: making line positioning undefined
  241. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: discussed at F2F
  242. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: CSS21 says "position and thickness is undefined. May consider font info of the descendant that you are underlining, but not required. Can have one non-broken line"
  243. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 interpretations
  244. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> (missed them)
  245. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: either way, consider the descedants
  246. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in L3, tighten up prose
  247. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ARIA concern when strike-through doesn’t go through the text
  248. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: what to consider or not, eg. skip vertical-alin
  249. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: dbaron against. Complicated, and bunch of links that should be the same up one containing some super-text, off by a few px
  250. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: F2F proposal: ???
  251. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: works poorly for ARIA’s concern case
  252. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline can cut through the text, when that text becomes bigger
  253. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think this is worse than a few px off
  254. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: don’t want to require this behavior
  255. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: underline should be on one side of the text alway IMO, not cut
  256. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in vertical text
  257. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: For this level, no consensus, undefined like 2.1
  258. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: deal with it in L4
  259. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> dbaron: fine with me, with explanation why
  260. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok, specifics?
  261. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> dbaron: the two rationales that you just said
  262. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> plinss: opinions?
  263. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: text-decoration line thickness and position undefined in L3
  264. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2 more issues
  265. # [18:33] <SteveZ> What can we do to resolve this in Level 4
  266. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> fantasai: shadows. Text underlined, separate shadow? Or composite together and shadow that
  267. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> fantasai: different with semi-transparant shadow color
  268. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think we want the shadow to be drawn at once, combined
  269. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> dbaron: that’s a lot more impl. work
  270. # [18:34] * leaverou speaking of that, what happens when *letters* intersect? Separate shadows or one composited?
  271. # [18:35] <hober> Zakim, aacc is me
  272. # [18:35] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  273. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I don’t know that we define it for text without shadows, but should be the same
  274. # [18:35] * Quits: teoli__ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  275. # [18:35] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  276. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> smfr: Within the same text run, one shadow
  277. # [18:36] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  278. # [18:36] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  279. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> smfr: accross spans maybe not
  280. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> smfr: for the underline, looks nicer if painted as one
  281. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> leaverou: I think composited shadows make more sense, but can also be achieved with filters
  282. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I think this should be left undefined at this level
  283. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> fantasai: ok with that
  284. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> leaverou: what do browsers do?
  285. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: (missed)
  286. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> leaverou: what if letters overlap?
  287. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> dbaron: not sure, depends on whether they have the same font
  288. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> leaverou: overlapping letters are more important
  289. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> florian: how expensive is it?
  290. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> dbaron: don’t know
  291. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> fantasai: text-decoration always overlaps … or maybe not
  292. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> dbaron: sort of decision where the group makes a resolution that requires impl. to trow out code and start again
  293. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> dbaron: needs more consideration that 3 min on a telecon
  294. # [18:39] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  295. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> dbaron: should research what impl. do
  296. # [18:39] <SteveZ> +1 for David's point
  297. # [18:40] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  298. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> dbaron: if we have interop on one thing and add "should" on something else, are we ever gonna get it?
  299. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> Rossen: anyone have a quick test case?
  300. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> krit: need images from different browsers
  301. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: how soon do we need an answer?
  302. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: leave it undefined at the moment, and come back later
  303. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: what does Illustrator does?
  304. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> krit: have to check
  305. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> s/does/do/
  306. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: need testing before deciding anything
  307. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> plinss: to we want to go to CR or wait on this?
  308. # [18:42] <leaverou> very quick testcase I just made: http://dabblet.com/gist/5920266
  309. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we add "should" and mark it at-risk?
  310. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> florian: typically not at-risk for changing our minds, rather for lack of impl
  311. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> florian: if we put the should, it encourages ppl to follow it. If we have interop, it’s bad to break it
  312. # [18:43] <dbaron> leaverou, you should also try (a) mixed LTR and RTL text within the same element and (b) an element boundary with a color change (c) an element boundary without a color change
  313. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we get research by next week?
  314. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> leaverou: looks like every browser overlap ???
  315. # [18:43] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  316. # [18:43] <leaverou> yes dbaron, it was a one minute thing :)
  317. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> florian: old Opera makes the overlapped letters darker
  318. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> dbaron: Gecko on Linux does not overlap
  319. # [18:44] <fantasai> ?^: If there's a should, then it encourages implementations to work towards that. if we already have interop on the opposite, then that encourages *less* interop
  320. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> dbaron: might depend on platform-specific text rendering
  321. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> florian: Presto doing it wrong, but not relevant anymore
  322. # [18:45] * fantasai SimonSapin, so sorry, *just* managed to get connected
  323. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> fantasai, it’s fine :)
  324. # [18:45] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  325. # [18:45] <fantasai> plinss: path forward?
  326. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> plinss: leave it undefined?
  327. # [18:45] <fantasai> smfr: think we have to leave it undefined
  328. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: works for me
  329. # [18:45] * krit SteveZ you can just specify shadow on the text group in illustrator
  330. # [18:45] <fantasai> rossen: it's ok
  331. # [18:45] <fantasai> plinss: ok, undefined in L3
  332. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: undefined in L3
  333. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron raised an issue on whether alphabetic is needed for text-underline-position. I don't know, so have no oinion.
  334. # [18:46] <fantasai> dbaron: who thinks it is necessary?
  335. # [18:46] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  336. # [18:47] <fantasai> szilles: my response is, what are we objecting to in alphabetic?
  337. # [18:47] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  338. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Wasn't clear to me how to implement this stuff
  339. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: or which value matched existing implementations
  340. # [18:47] <smfr> can we have a url for this discussion?
  341. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: also there's issues with using font metrics for underlining
  342. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: if you use the underlining metrics from the font, which value of text-underline-position is it?
  343. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: if you have a CJK font, which underline are you using?
  344. # [18:48] <fantasai> szilles: CJK fonts usually have two sets of metrics
  345. # [18:48] <SimonSapin> smfr, I don’t find it from the minutes :/
  346. # [18:48] <fantasai> szilles: You can choose the dominant baseline in a table based
  347. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: I thought fonts had various baselines, but only one underline position metric
  348. # [18:49] <dbaron> smfr, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6
  349. # [18:49] <koji> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0139.html
  350. # [18:49] <fantasai> szilles: you may be right. I think in CJK fonts, underlines are lower than alphabetic, because CJK characters descend lower than alphabetic baseline
  351. # [18:50] <fantasai> szilles: feedback from Adobe Typography was, use the font baseline if it's there.
  352. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: So question then is, which value in CSS spec corresponds to that?
  353. # [18:50] <fantasai> s/that/use the font metrics/
  354. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: My problem with this spec is, it's hard for me to understand how to implement
  355. # [18:50] <fantasai> szilles: I understand. Happy to work with fantasai to fix that.
  356. # [18:50] <fantasai> koji: spec says alphabetic is based on font emtrics
  357. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: [describes original intention of values, which had nothing to do with whether to use font metrics]
  358. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: If you're ignoring font metrics, spec is very simple to implement.
  359. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: If you're using font metrics, then have problem that fonts aren't clear on what their metrics represent
  360. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Because some fonts think the underline metric represents the alphabetic position, and others think it represents the accounting position.
  361. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Webkit, for example, doesn't use font metrics. Just picks a position below the alphabetic line.
  362. # [18:54] <fantasai> szilles: bad typography
  363. # [18:54] <fantasai> szilles: [... some issue of font metrics ...]
  364. # [18:54] <fantasai> szilles: So dbaron's point was, how do I implement what's there?
  365. # [18:55] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  366. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: Part of reason to drop alphabetic is that there's nothing left in spec that's unclear
  367. # [18:55] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  368. # [18:55] <fantasai> szilles: But doesn't auto ask for alphabetic position?
  369. # [18:55] <fantasai> szilles: I'm not attached to alphabetic value, want auto to do something reasonable
  370. # [18:55] <BradK> Sorry I'm late. What did I miss?
  371. # [18:55] <BradK> jk
  372. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Krit
  373. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: auto is vague enough that we can just keep our current implementation
  374. # [18:56] <Zakim> +Krit
  375. # [18:56] <fantasai> florian: Is it bad to disallow looking at font metrics?
  376. # [18:56] <fantasai> szilles: Yes, that is bad.
  377. # [18:57] <Zakim> +BradK
  378. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: also, what is the use case for alphabetic?
  379. # [18:57] <fantasai> szilles: seems to be same as auto
  380. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: for the cases where you would want it, at least
  381. # [18:57] * leaverou LOL BradK
  382. # [18:58] <fantasai> szilles: So, you're reasonably happy with current definition of auto
  383. # [18:58] <fantasai> szilles: ...
  384. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: alphabetic is same thing as auto in cases where you want it, but also unclear how to use font metrics
  385. # [18:59] <florian> s/disallow looking at font metrics/disallow looking at font metrics for non-auto values/
  386. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: Current spec has blanket statement for using font metrics wherever appropriate
  387. # [19:00] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  388. # [19:00] <fantasai> szilles: Can we come up with a definition of appropriate?
  389. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't really want to do that...
  390. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe drop alphabetic, and tackle that in L4 if someone wants to define it for OpenType
  391. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: "appropriate" allows, e.g. blacklisting metrics of bad fonts
  392. # [19:01] <fantasai> plinss: What does it mean for vertical text
  393. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: vertical text has an alphabetic baseline; should be defined in writing modes
  394. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: text decoration spec is in terms of over/under (relative) directions
  395. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: so no issue here
  396. # [19:02] <fantasai> szilles: should auto do the right thing in vertical text?
  397. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Krit
  398. # [19:03] <Zakim> - +1.212.318.aadd
  399. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Interesting question. If you have sideways Latin in vertical orientation, want the underline to look just like in horiziontal text
  400. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: but if typeset upright, want to shift it over
  401. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: similar problem to CJK in horizontal, want to make sure it shifts down enough
  402. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: so maybe add examples to the spec showing things UA needs to consider...
  403. # [19:04] <fantasai> plinss: So, do we want to drop alphabetic?
  404. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: think so
  405. # [19:05] <fantasai> szilles: now that I understand dbaron's issues, makes sense to me
  406. # [19:05] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop alphabetic
  407. # [19:05] <fantasai> plinss: Move to CR?
  408. # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Have to make edits, but that does close all the issues
  409. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dael
  410. # [19:06] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  411. # [19:06] <fantasai> ...
  412. # [19:06] <fantasai> szilles: My understanding of our decisions today was, take conservative approach, don't define anything new
  413. # [19:06] <Zakim> -hober
  414. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai: Yep, so no need for another LC
  415. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dbaron
  416. # [19:06] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  417. # [19:06] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Take CSS3 Text Decoration to LC
  418. # [19:06] <Zakim> -leif
  419. # [19:06] <Zakim> -BradK
  420. # [19:06] * Parts: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  421. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  422. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
  423. # [19:06] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  424. # [19:06] <Zakim> -antonp
  425. # [19:06] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  426. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  427. # [19:06] <Zakim> -??P75
  428. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Lea
  429. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glenn
  430. # [19:06] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  431. # [19:06] <Zakim> -smfr
  432. # [19:07] <Zakim> -koji
  433. # [19:07] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  434. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  435. # [19:07] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  436. # [19:08] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  437. # [19:10] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  438. # [19:10] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  439. # [19:11] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  440. # [19:12] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  441. # [19:14] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  442. # [19:15] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  443. # [19:17] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
  444. # [19:20] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jerenkrantz, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  445. # [19:20] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  446. # [19:20] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, Krit, plinss, leif, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, florian, +93192aabb, antonp, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.619.846.aacc, fantasai, nvdbleek, glenn, SteveZ, JohnJansen,
  447. # [19:20] <Zakim> ... +1.212.318.aadd, smfr, +1.212.318.aaee, jerenkrantz, [IPcaller], dbaron, koji, TabAtkins, Bert, hober, BradK
  448. # [19:21] * Quits: jerenkrantz_ (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  449. # [19:24] * Quits: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  452. # [19:47] * Quits: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]")
  453. # [19:58] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  454. # [20:17] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
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  458. # [22:32] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  459. # [22:57] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  460. # [22:58] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  461. # [23:01] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
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  463. # [23:05] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  464. # [23:07] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  465. # [23:13] <fantasai> great, www-style-request decided to unsubscribe me from www-style
  466. # [23:14] <hober> wat
  467. # [23:14] <fantasai> why am I responsible for the fact that bradlit@windows.microsoft.com bounces email?
  468. # [23:14] * fantasai does not understand
  469. # [23:14] <fantasai> Bert?
  470. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yay, same as me in Tokyo!
  471. # [23:15] <fantasai> ?
  472. # [23:15] <fantasai> guess it's time to go splice MBOX files...
  473. # [23:15] <fantasai> :/
  474. # [23:15] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
  475. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> The same thing happened to me, I got unsubscribed because someone (I think the same address) bounces
  476. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> How weird!
  477. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> plh added my address to some whitelist, and I reported the issue to sysreq
  478. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> but apparently it’s not fixed yet
  479. # [23:17] <fantasai> can we unsubscribe the address responsible?
  480. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> probably
  481. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> but we should also fix the W3C MTA kicking the wrong person out on bounces
  482. # [23:22] * fantasai tries to figure out how to edit an MBOX of www-style containing all messages from early 2000 without crashing or hanging a text editor
  483. # [23:23] * fantasai might have to resort to cat
  484. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> fantasai: there is a thunderbird extension for importing mbox files
  485. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> I did that with files from the archive, eyeballed the date range I was missing, and copied the messages using thunderbird
  486. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> I wouldn’t mess with thuderbird’s storage using other tools
  487. # [23:26] <fantasai> oh, yeah
  488. # [23:27] <fantasai> I forgot how I usually do this... creating a new mbox and using TB's move functions :)
  489. # [23:27] <fantasai> that's much easier
  490. # [23:27] <SimonSapin> yeah
  491. # [23:27] <fantasai> well, all spliced already
  492. # [23:27] <fantasai> it should be okay
  493. # [23:31] <fantasai> w00t, all minutes posted!!!!!!
  494. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  495. # [23:43] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  496. # [23:43] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  497. # Session Close: Thu Jul 04 00:00:01 2013

The end :)