/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-07-10 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 10 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [02:49] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
# [02:49] <jdaggett> hiya
# [02:50] <jdaggett> btw, are you going to tweak the values spec? to make the font units relative to the first available font, as per 2.1?
# [02:52] <fantasai> yes, it's on my to-do list :)
# [02:52] <fantasai> well, on my virtual to-do list
# [02:52] * fantasai hasn't written it down yet
# [02:52] <fantasai> currently working on the text-underline-position bits
# [02:52] * fantasai drawing pictures!
# [02:53] * fantasai admires jdaggett's ability to make really clear and beautiful examples... it is not quite one of fantasai's skills
# [02:54] <jdaggett> it's the qa mindset i somehow inherited from my pa
# [02:54] <jdaggett> he worked on one of the early digital computing projects at mit
# [02:55] <jdaggett> at the time they were using tv tubes for storage
# [02:55] <jdaggett> he said "that's not going to work" and wrote some test programs to show what a mess it was
# [02:55] <jdaggett> got some very high-ranking dudes pissed...
# [03:00] <jdaggett> fantasai: oops, sorry for using your signature...!
# [03:43] <fantasai> lol
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# [04:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/#text-underline-position-property
# [04:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: Just checked in edits for underline position details, examples, etc.
# [04:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: Please take a look and let me know what might need fixing?
# [04:33] <fantasai> jdaggett: Pretty sure I'm missing precision on some of it, but not sure in what ways that is
# [05:32] <fantasai> hmmm, your LC spec was not published
# [05:32] * fantasai decides to deal with this
# [05:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: btw, should 'first available font' be looking for the zero character?
# [05:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm not sure how you'd define 'ch' for a first available font that doesn't contain a zero...
# [05:40] * fantasai left ch defined as looking for a zero character
# [05:58] <fantasai> jdaggett: let me know if you want me to get your draft published tomorrow, I can prep it if Bert's not able to
# [05:58] <fantasai> well, published Thursday, but submitted to webreq tomorrow...
# [06:06] <jdaggett> fantasai: i always prep my specs, so it's done and waiting for the webreq folks
# [06:06] <jdaggett> they just have to swizzle the default stylesheet
# [06:06] <jdaggett> but this time they also need to create the new URL path (i.e. css-fonts-3)
# [06:07] <jdaggett> don't know what sort of mind explosions that will cause, it definitely causes the pubrule checker to squeal
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# [07:48] * fantasai wonders why 'full-width' and 'proportional-width' are under font-variant-east-asian and not like font-variant-width or something
# [07:51] * fantasai also gets confused that 'ordinal' is under font-variant-numeric, since it apparently isn't affecting numbers????
# [07:52] * fantasai was pretty sure it was under font-variant-position before
# [07:53] <fantasai> hmm, I think I've been confusing ordinals and superscripts
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# [08:50] <fantasai> hm, maybe it's time to go home
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# [13:58] <glazou> hello plh:-)
# [13:58] <plh> bonjour Daniel :)
# [14:01] <glazou> jamais utilisé Citrix pour un confcall j'espère que ça va marcher
# [14:09] <plh> btw, Ralph managed to fix Zakim last week, so we should be fine for a while now in terms of capacity
# [14:09] <glazou> cool plh
# [14:54] <glazou> plh, je te cc un mail à propos de l'issue que j'ai découverte dans ITS 2.0
# [14:55] <glazou> j'ai pris un action item du MLW-LT WG de contacter le HTML WG à ce sujet
# [14:55] <glazou> c'est moi qui l'ai proposé pour trouver un compromis
# [14:56] <plh> Felix est en vacances, donc cela va prendre du temps de notre cote avant qu'on se plonge dedans
# [14:56] <plh> (tu auras p'te resoler le pb d'ici la)
# [14:56] <plh> resolu
# [14:57] <glazou> j'espère
# [14:57] <glazou> c'est vraiment un pépin
# [14:57] <glazou> je suis en train de l'implémenter et c'est une vraie PITA
# [15:04] <glazou> plh, sent
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# [17:13] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0155.html'
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# [17:14] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/10-css-irc
# [17:14] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:14] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
# [17:14] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P19 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz
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# [18:02] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
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# [18:03] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [18:03] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:03] <Zakim> -fantasai
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# [18:04] <glenn> zakim, ??p48 is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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# [18:04] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P50 is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
# [18:04] * sgalineau approves of NY anytime
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# [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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# [18:05] <rhauck> zakim, aabb is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> +dbaron
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# [18:05] <sgalineau> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> -??P64
# [18:06] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#its-param
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
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# [18:06] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:06] <krit> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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# [18:07] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: Justin suggested to host first 2014 F2F in NYC
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# [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: Right time to start looking for hosts. Not going to resolve now, but getting options would be cool.
# [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: That said, extra items?
# [18:09] <fantasai> Topic: text-combine-horizontal
# [18:09] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0111.html
# [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: Last week there was a resolution about the algorithm
# [18:09] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: which left the decision to use width-specific variants up to the UA
# [18:09] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:09] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:09] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jul/0011.html
# [18:09] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jul/0014.html
# [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: A UA could simply do scaling, or use width variants as it saw fit
# [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: Posted some examples
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:10] <fantasai> jdaggett: Example of 107
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# [18:10] <fantasai> jdaggett: showing scaling vs. variants
# [18:10] <fantasai> jdaggett: This is imporant because font designer put this into the font
# [18:10] <fantasai> jdaggett: UA shouldn't be synthesizing things
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: UA should be required to use the variants
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: Arguments about cases where other behaviors might be better
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: Based purely on scaling, will produce different results based on width of glyphs
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: See, e.g. second URL
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: alphabetic text
# [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: case 5, scaling only
# [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: IA looks normal, but MM looks much lighter
# [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: It will make a difference in readability
# [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: Whereas case 4 has the right weight
# [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: This is already what implementations are doing
# [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett: Would like this to be the required behavior, so we can actually test it
# [18:12] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:12] <stearns> given http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0179.html, I'm assuming we should require width variant glyphs when all the glyphs have variants, but allow UAs to do what they want when the TCY run has glyphs with no variants available
# [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: We can test things that aren't required.
# [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: We do this in other places
# [18:13] <fantasai> florian: Case of #12, some glyphs have variant and some don't
# [18:13] <fantasai> florian: Think we should say this case is undefined
# [18:13] <Zakim> +??P97
# [18:13] <fantasai> florian: Do we all agree on this?
# [18:13] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P97 is me
# [18:13] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm fine to say, use width variants if all characters have width variants
# [18:14] <fantasai> rossen: I agree with jdaggett. When we implemented text-combine-horizontal, we assumed that if the font provides glyphs, then we should use those
# [18:14] <fantasai> rossen: And not create a crappy-looking solution just because we can do it cheaper
# [18:14] <fantasai> rossen: Have a question, when we are going to require that we use the font variants
# [18:15] <fantasai> rossen: Are we talking about digits, or regardless of which text-combine-horizontal we're using?
# [18:15] <fantasai> rossen: e.g. case of text-combine: all, only 3 characters
# [18:15] <fantasai> rossen: would we also consider those?
# [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: Considering any case
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# [18:16] <fantasai> florian: jdaggett made case that if font designer made glyphs available, should use them
# [18:16] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aadd
# [18:16] <fantasai> florian: Question, are these glyphs designed only for TCY?
# [18:16] <fantasai> florian: There was also the case that these glyphs force monospace design
# [18:16] <fantasai> florian: But in some cases proportional width might be better
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# [18:17] <fantasai> florian: Here we are not explicitly asking for half-width, you're asking for TCY
# [18:17] <fantasai> florian: Easy to see these two things are related, but not necessarily 1-1 mappin
# [18:17] <fantasai> g
# [18:17] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-combine-horizontal
# [18:17] <fantasai> Current text, btw
# [18:17] <fantasai> The UA must ensure that the combined advance width of the composition fits within 1em by compressing the combined text if necessary. (This does not necessarily mean that the glyphs will fit within 1em, as some glyphs are designed to draw outside their geometric boundaries.) The UA may use any means to do so, including substituting half-width, third-width, and/or quarter-width glyphs provided by the font or using other font features designed to compress t[CUT]
# [18:18] * glazou if you guys all speak at the same time, I'll give you knives and will look you in a room...
# [18:18] <glazou> s/look/lock
# [18:18] <fantasai> [some amount of argument over the question]
# [18:19] <fantasai> florian: If these glyphs are only designed for TCY, better case that they are the best thing to use
# [18:19] <SteveZ> For example I have, in the past, seen IBM in tate-chu-yoko
# [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: twid and qwid, definitely only for TCY. half-width, I don't know
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# [18:19] <sgalineau> even assuming the 1/n glyphs were not designed with TCY in mind the UA has no way to tell. Only the author can.
# [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you scale based on width of 2-char proportional span, this will result in variations in scaling factor
# [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: which gives poor readability
# [18:20] <fantasai> koji: I think you misunderstood what fantasai said
# [18:20] <stearns> can we resolve on using the variants when all the glyphs in the TCY run have variants available?
# [18:20] <fantasai> koji: Both she and I agree that width variants is better than scaling
# [18:20] <fantasai> koji: But sometimes you don't have to scale at all, and that's even better than half-width variants.
# [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: That seems like a case where difference between half-width variants and proportional glyphs will be very minor
# [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Very minor
# [18:21] <fantasai> koji: Not very minor
# [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: We're far beyond 10min limit
# [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think we need more examples from ppl arguing against this
# [18:21] <fantasai> I suggest A' as an example where hwid would not be good
# [18:21] <fantasai> Topic: White space in MQ
# [18:22] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0130.html
# [18:22] <fantasai> glazou: Saw answer from dbaron on ML
# [18:22] <fantasai> florian: What we resolved awhile ago was that there are differences in the WS handling of MQ and @supports
# [18:22] <fantasai> florian: @suports requires space between ')', 'and'
# [18:22] <fantasai> florian: We decided to make this the same
# [18:22] <fantasai> florian: Missed on some subtleties
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: One is that, unlike @supports, not everything is between parens
# [18:23] <SteveZ> A different view: the problem is the requirement that the result fit into 1 EM; the Adobe folks (with Japanese typography experience) that I consulted said the tate-chu-yoko should be as wide as is needed and not affect line-spacing
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: e.g. @media screen and (min-width: ...)
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: Currently we don't require a space between 'screen' and 'and' -- you could put a comment
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: To make things clean, suggest just requiring space there.
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: Also @supports not ... requires space after not, MQ doesn't...
# [18:24] <fantasai> florian: Proposal is to harmonize all that
# [18:24] <fantasai> florian: by requiring spaces
# [18:24] <fantasai> florian: I proposed a new grammar; dbaron proposed a better grammar
# [18:24] <fantasai> florian: Suggest we go with what he said
# [18:24] <SimonSapin> +1, ship it
# [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm in favor
# [18:24] <bkardell> +1
# [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: me too
# [18:24] <dbaron> +1
# [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: No objection?
# [18:24] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accepted
# [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Another comment --
# [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: I think errata need more review
# [18:24] <SimonSapin> +1 dbaron
# [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: I think there have been errata posted to more than one of our specs that don't match our resolutions.
# [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: They should be announced to www-style for review by the person updating the errata document.
# [18:25] <fantasai> plh: I think would be easy for whoever updated errata doc to do that.
# [18:25] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Whoever updates errata doc, must send update message to www-style.
# [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: Quick question...
# [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: There was a request to publish LC of Fonts. Is anyone going to do it?
# [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: There was a request to publish... and no response from anybody
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# [18:26] <fantasai> plh: I'll check; currently transitioning webmasters
# [18:26] <fantasai> plh: I'll double-checkon that.
# [18:27] <fantasai> topic: Cross-origin style sheets
# [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: Anyone able to handle that? No one from Opera?
# [18:27] <fantasai> topic: Shapes
# [18:27] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0096.html
# [18:28] <fantasai> stearns: Where to define how to allow images from other origins in a stable way
# [18:28] <fantasai> stearns: My understanding is that we need to define a [..] mechanism where you pass a CORS flag and get a response that [..]
# [18:28] <fantasai> stearns: I can define this in Shapes, specifically
# [18:28] <fantasai> stearns: Or we can put it in CSS images, for the image type in general
# [18:29] <fantasai> stearns: I think that's really the only question -- where should it be defined?
# [18:29] <fantasai> rossen: I don't care that this is part of Shapes
# [18:29] <fantasai> stearns: Any other opinions?
# [18:29] <fantasai> stearns: I'll put it into Shapes
# [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: If we need to factor it out later, we can do that later
# [18:30] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0514.html
# [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Define CORS stuff for shapes in Shapes
# [18:30] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:30] * glazou notes SimonSapin was super-noisy
# [18:30] <fantasai> stearns: People in SVG want to point to some future CSS work for what they want to do
# [18:30] <SimonSapin> sorry about that
# [18:30] <fantasai> stearns: particularly wrt shape-inside
# [18:30] <fantasai> stearns: though not on anyone's plate to do that right atm
# [18:30] <fantasai> stearns: Proposed to take what's on the wiki page, make a Shapes Level 2 draft
# [18:30] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:30] <fantasai> glazou: No problem with that
# [18:31] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P10 is me
# [18:31] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:31] <fantasai> glazou: Most of what you added was already in the L1 drafts. Not as if we never agreed to work on that. So in favor
# [18:31] <fantasai> glazou: other opinions?
# [18:31] * fantasai no objection
# [18:31] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Shapes L2 ED agreed
# [18:31] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0514.html
# [18:31] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:32] <fantasai> topic: Grid Auto-placement Algorithm
# [18:32] <bkardell> is that meant to be a link to grid?
# [18:32] * Quits: SteveZ (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:32] <stearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/#auto-placement-algo
# [18:32] <glazou> yes, sorry, bad url
# [18:32] <fantasai> This algorithm creates a "sparse" packing, where holes left behind are never filled in. This is more efficient and predictable (items never move to a position far above/before their preceding sibling), but the gaps are unwanted by authors in some situations. We should have a switch to allow for dense packing. (WebKit's current implementation does dense packing.)
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: Two ways to do auto-placement
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: Sparse packing... you start in the 1, 1 slot
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: and then place the next item that fist
# [18:33] <glazou> s/fist/fits
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: move to the next empty slot, and put the next item
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: If something doesn't fit you keep moving until you find an empty slot that's big enough
# [18:34] <fantasai> rossen: how do you define fit?
# [18:34] <dbaron> Rossen: how do you define "fit"?
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: the span -- the number of cells
# [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: Number of cells
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: Suppose you have 3 columns, and an item that is a 1x1, and then you place another item that's 1x1. Then if you have an item that's 2x2, you move to the next row and leave an empty slot in the first row.
# [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: (etc.)
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: so you leave behind a bunch of holes
# [18:35] <dbaron> Rossen: so it doesn't fit based on the number of columns, not based on sizing properties?
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: right
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: That's the sparse packing option. Advantage of that is that things are in the order they appear.
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: Other option is dense packing, which says you go back
# [18:35] <dbaron> fantasai: If you have a 1x1 empty slot on the first row that you skipped because there's a 2x2 item, you go back and fill that hole.
# [18:36] <dbaron> fantasai: Advantage is no holes, disadvantage is that things get out of order.
# [18:36] <dbaron> fantasai: When we discussed at Microsoft, thought it made more sense to do sparse packing, at least for this level.
# [18:36] <dbaron> fantasai: Sparse packing is simpler, and don't get unexpected out-of-order.
# [18:36] <bkardell> I like the idea of dense packing as an option later
# [18:36] <dbaron> fantasai: We have the option of adding a way to turn on dense packing in a later level.
# [18:36] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [18:37] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: I think this is the best thing to do; don't get unexpected results, and dense packing would be an opt-in (ok to go out of order).
# [18:37] <dbaron> bradk: would that be based on the 'order' property?
# [18:37] <dbaron> bradk: ???
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: Yeah, the order used is the order-modified document order.
# [18:37] <dbaron> ?: what's default of 'order'?
# [18:37] <dbaron> fantasai: 0
# [18:37] <stearns> +1 to default to sparse, with an optional switch for dense
# [18:38] * fantasai has a proposal in her inbox from florian to call 'order' 'visual-order' and wishes we'd gone with that, since it makes it clear it doesn't affect speech/DOM :/
# [18:38] <dbaron> bradk: order is for the ???, not for the ??? itself, right?
# [18:38] <dbaron> fantasai: couldn't hear
# [18:38] <dbaron> bradk: was just saying that if ... then it would be sparsely packed, otherwise densely packed
# [18:39] <dbaron> stearns: <missed>
# [18:39] <dbaron> bradk: but you could have order be something that overrides the dense packing
# [18:39] <bkardell> grid-visual-order?
# [18:39] <dbaron> stearns: I don't think this should be related.
# [18:39] <dbaron> stearns: order property just changes the dom order and that's the only affect it should have on the packing algorithm
# [18:39] <dbaron> Rossen: Think of order as a pre-order .... reordering the elements. Before layout.
# [18:39] * Joins: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak)
# [18:39] <stearns> s/affect/effect/ :)
# [18:39] <dbaron> bradk: could imply the author's intent to keep them in that order
# [18:40] <dbaron> Rossen: they are being kept in that order
# [18:40] <dbaron> bradk: ok, then. I don't feel strongly.
# [18:40] <dbaron> Rossen: <inaudible about not being able to ... examples>
# [18:40] * fantasai glad dbaron is taking minutes, because can't hear anything due to construction noise :(
# [18:40] <dbaron> Rossen: From impl pov ...; but definitely easier to explain.
# [18:40] <Zakim> + +1.917.623.aaee
# [18:41] <dbaron> Rossen: ... float layout... position float, if not enough space, push below until find space. You never backtrack.
# [18:41] <c_palmer> Zakim, 1.917.623.aaee is me
# [18:41] <Zakim> sorry, c_palmer, I do not recognize a party named '1.917.623.aaee'
# [18:41] <c_palmer> Zakim, +1.917.623.aaee is me
# [18:41] <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
# [18:41] <dbaron> Rossen: So sparse ordering or auto ordering will ... that, dense will be fancier in terms of implementation but not sure it's more intuitive for users.
# [18:41] * stearns agrees that dense packing is like a more complicated float stacking
# [18:42] <dbaron> Rossen: so should we go with sparse?
# [18:42] <dbaron> bradk: I don't feel strongly.
# [18:42] <dbaron> glazou: I think we should.
# [18:42] <dbaron> RESOLVED: sparse packing for grid auto position
# [18:42] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013AprJun/0287.html
# [18:42] <krit> file:///Users/dschulze/Documents/hg/FXTF/masking/index.html
# [18:43] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/
# [18:43] * fantasai so proud, fxtf is serving things off a Real Web Server!
# [18:43] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/#box-image-masks
# [18:43] <glazou> fantasai, lol
# [18:44] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
# [18:44] <dbaron> Topic: mask/mask-box-image shorthand
# [18:44] * Zakim sees Topic:, mask/mask-box-image, short on the speaker queue
# [18:44] * fantasai maybe can go hide in a closet...
# [18:44] <SimonSapin> krit: shorthand is bad
# [18:44] <dbaron> krit: request from fantasai about making one mask property that turns off all masking
# [18:44] <dbaron> krit: fantasai wanted mask to reset mask-box-image etc.
# [18:44] <krit> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0645.html
# [18:44] * fantasai can take over now, noise stopped
# [18:44] <SimonSapin> krit: fantasai requested that 'mask' also reset 'mask-image' and related properties
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: Request led to new design for mask properties
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: where 'mask' would be overall shorthand for all masking properties
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: here's a link for how it could look like
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: we would have mask-layers, which would be like 'background' shorthand
# [18:45] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: and we would have mask-element, which does svg references
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: and then mask-box, like box-image
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: seem to have agreement on overall structure
# [18:45] <plh> q?
# [18:45] * Zakim sees Topic:, mask/mask-box-image, short on the speaker queue
# [18:45] <fantasai> krit: question is, what is the shorthand able to set
# [18:45] <plh> queue=
# [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <fantasai> krit: shorthand similar to 'border' shorthand -- resets all border properties, but not able to set border-image properties
# [18:46] <Zakim> -jdaggett
# [18:46] <fantasai> krit: My proposal is to have 'mask' only set mask-element
# [18:46] <fantasai> krit: It already does that
# [18:46] <fantasai> krit: and it's hard to distinguish URLs for different things, so hard to add in anything other than mask-element reference
# [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: So, you're saying if you use 'mask' shorthand, can't set both mask-box and mask-layers?
# [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: So you have mutually-exclusive options in a shorthand... which is confusing to me
# [18:47] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [18:47] <fantasai> florian: It does happen, not that rarely, that you can do basic things in shorthand and other things need to go to longhand
# [18:47] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: fantasai would like to also allow mask-box / mask-layers into shorthand
# [18:48] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: but this leads to parsing problems, because url() is ambiguous
# [18:48] <fantasai> smfr: Sounds like it would be a very confusing shorthand
# [18:48] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Problem is really that these all use url() function
# [18:49] <fantasai> krit: Need to distinguish which property you want to assign the url() to at parse time
# [18:49] <fantasai> krit: One idea was to check for fragID, assume it's an element
# [18:49] <fantasai> krit: But request that we don't do that
# [18:49] <fantasai> florian: No, that doesn't seem pretty
# [18:49] <fantasai> smfr: So saying mask-layers is not part of shorthand at all?
# [18:49] <fantasai> smfr: But can reset the masks with the shorthand?
# [18:49] <fantasai> florian: shorthand can only set 'none'
# [18:49] <fantasai> smfr: So confusing
# [18:50] <fantasai> smfr: properties interact in non-symmetrical ways
# [18:50] <SimonSapin> 'border' also resets 'border-image' but can not set it
# [18:50] <fantasai> krit: mask-layers is already a shorthand
# [18:50] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:50] <fantasai> smfr: I think this adds too much confusion for something that won't be used very often
# [18:50] <fantasai> krit: Even without this, still kindof hacky
# [18:50] <fantasai> krit: because of 'mask' setting SVG masks right now
# [18:50] <fantasai> florian: This doesn't bother me much
# [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: Opinions here? smfr thinks undesirable?
# [18:51] <fantasai> smfr: Think it's too much complexity to get one part of behavior
# [18:51] <fantasai> florian: I'm ok with it
# [18:51] <fantasai> krit: If we don't do this, we still need a way to distinguish mask element and mask layers
# [18:52] <fantasai> ?: Is this just about having top-level shorthand support none | <mask-element> ?
# [18:52] <fantasai> smfr: mask-element is the svg-style one
# [18:52] <fantasai> s/?/bkardell/
# [18:52] <fantasai> smfr: not represented in WebKit prefixed version
# [18:52] <fantasai> smfr: Which are possibly used more often than SVG one
# [18:52] <fantasai> krit: Might be right
# [18:52] <fantasai> glazou: What should we do now?
# [18:53] * fantasai missed that
# [18:53] <fantasai> krit: 'mask: <mask-element> | none' is part of SVG REC
# [18:53] <fantasai> ??: if I understand correctly, question is, either there is no mask shorthand directly
# [18:53] <glazou> s/??/bkardell
# [18:53] <fantasai> ??: Or, is it this limitation of mask-element || none?
# [18:54] <fantasai> krit: We have this mask property already, which points to SVG. So either way, we need a way to handle this back-compat situation
# [18:54] <fantasai> bkardell: I like ability to say 'none' at the shorthand level
# [18:54] <fantasai> florian: I really don't like parse-the-url thing
# [18:54] <fantasai> florian: Everything else so far, I'm comfortable with, but that I'd like to avoid
# [18:55] * fantasai too
# [18:55] <fantasai> krit: I don't think smfr's proposal is possible.
# [18:55] <fantasai> smfr: Just have 3 separate properties
# [18:55] <bkardell> not possible even if it can only do none?
# [18:55] <fantasai> krit: mask-element will have to be called just 'mask', then
# [18:56] <fantasai> krit: because we already have this property in spec + implementations
# [18:56] <fantasai> [basically, 'mask: none | <uri>' has to work somehow ]
# [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: I guess one thing to think about is, is there anything we can do in the shorthand that would let us distinguish the longhands in it
# [18:57] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0276.html
# [18:57] <fantasai> Topic: painting area & bg-attachment: local
# [18:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Decided recently, positioning area of bg-attachment: local is the scrolling area
# [18:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Think it should be the same for the clipping area
# [18:58] <fantasai> SimonSapin: If we consider the background is inside the scoll box
# [18:58] <fantasai> SimonSapin: It should also keep the same as the content, that is the padding box
# [18:58] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So intersection of rectangle based on bg property and clipping property
# [18:58] <fantasai> glazou: Opinions?
# [18:58] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/07/10-css-minutes.html plh
# [18:58] <fantasai> smfr: What is the visible difference
# [18:59] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Mostly when you have bg-clip: content-box; and some padding
# [18:59] <fantasai> SimonSapin: You have some area that has no background at the top, but when you scroll that area disappears
# [18:59] <fantasai> SimonSapin: but if you consider that the clipping area is not scrolling, then you always have this padding not scrolling as well
# [18:59] <fantasai> smfr: I think I understand, but would love testcases / diagrams
# [19:00] <Zakim> -??P61
# [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: I totally agree, this is obviously the right thing to do
# [19:00] <bkardell> lgtm
# [19:00] * glazou +1
# [19:00] <glazou> bkardell, lgtm???
# [19:00] <fantasai> smfr: seems you'd use different clipping for different bg layers based on whether local or not
# [19:00] <bkardell> looks good to me
# [19:00] <fantasai> smfr: Would make implementations a little more complex
# [19:00] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Possibly
# [19:00] * glazou sigh @ acronyms
# [19:01] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Currently working on patch for that in Gecko. Not a problem for us, though might depend on architecture
# [19:01] * fantasai glazou??
# [19:01] * bkardell sighs at using @
# [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: Anyone objecting?
# [19:01] <bradk> Should it also depend on presense of scrollbars?
# [19:01] <fantasai> smfr: I would like diagrams
# [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: OK, revisit next week
# [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: And we have 1 minute on the call... anything else for 1 miute?
# [19:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:02] <Zakim> -sgalineau
# [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [19:02] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:02] <Zakim> - +1.520.280.aadd
# [19:02] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:02] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:02] <Zakim> -c_palmer
# [19:02] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:02] <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
# [19:02] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Plh
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# [19:02] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
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# [19:02] <SimonSapin> smfr: the diagrams should be the same as for the positioning area
# [19:02] <SimonSapin> s/smfr:/smfr,/
# [19:02] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
# [19:02] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:02] <smfr> SimonSapin: where are those?
# [19:02] <SimonSapin> but I could make more with padding and border-radius, if that helps
# [19:03] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0542.html
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# [19:03] <Zakim> -MaRakow
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# [19:04] <smfr> SimonSapin: it would help I think
# [19:04] <smfr> i'm a bit worried about implementation complexity
# [19:05] <smfr> gtg
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# [19:06] <Zakim> -rhauck
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# [19:10] <plh> florian, does this look ok to you? http://www.w3.org/Style/2012/REC-mediaqueries-20120619-errata.html
# [19:11] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Lea, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, jerenkrantz, plinss, jdaggett, Stearns, fantasai, Plh, +1.206.675.aaaa, glenn, SimonSapin, smfr, shezbaig_wk, +1.415.615.aabb, antonp, SteveZ, rhauck,
# [19:11] <Zakim> ... dbaron, sgalineau, +1.415.832.aacc, florian, krit, BradK, [IPcaller], MaRakow, koji, Lea, +1.520.280.aadd, c_palmer
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)