/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-07-24 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 24 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:11] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/24-css-irc
# [17:12] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:12] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
# [17:12] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:12] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0518.html'
# [17:19] <SimonSapin> These weekly incantations are so "Elders of the Internet" ;)
# [17:22] <glazou> eheh
# [17:24] <glazou> I also play the "Elder of the Bakery" every evening "Bonjour madame, une baguette de tradition svp" ;-p
# [17:26] <Ms2ger> Those French :)
# [17:27] <glazou> Ms2ger, hey I go to Delhaize for my daily cramique when I'm in Brussels :-)
# [17:29] <SimonSapin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg
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# [17:33] <glazou> LOL
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# [17:50] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:50] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aaaa
# [17:51] <Zakim> +??P21
# [17:51] <Zakim> +??P22
# [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, ?P22 is me
# [17:52] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
# [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, ??P22 is me
# [17:52] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is briankardell
# [17:53] <Zakim> +briankardell; got it
# [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P21
# [17:53] <Zakim> ??P21 should now be muted
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# [17:54] <sgalineau> Zakim, aabb is me
# [17:54] <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
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# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:56] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +florian; got it
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# [17:56] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [17:56] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
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# [17:56] * plh waves
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# [17:57] <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:57] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (8%), antonp (84%)
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P72
# [17:57] <antonp> Zakim, mute me
# [17:57] <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
# [17:57] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P72 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +Lea
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> ... maybe
# [17:58] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [17:58] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
# [17:58] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [17:59] <rhauck> Zakim, aadd is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [17:59] * Zakim hears SimonSapin's hand up
# [17:59] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [17:59] <SimonSapin> q-
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# [18:00] <krit1> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see briankardell, ??P21 (muted), glazou, sgalineau, plinss, dael, [IPcaller], BradK, Plh, antonp (muted), ??P66, SimonSapin, Lea, [Microsoft], fantasai, Bert,
# [18:00] <Zakim> ... rhauck, [IPcaller.a], shezbaig_wk
# [18:00] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:00] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
# [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:01] <krit1> zakim, P66 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, krit1, I do not recognize a party named 'P66'
# [18:01] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:01] * krit1 is now known as krit
# [18:01] <krit> zakim, ??P66 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +krit; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:02] * leaverou thinks fantasai would have made her point in the same amount of time it took glazou to tell her not to
# [18:02] <fantasai> glazou: Where are we wrt variables?
# [18:02] <glazou> leaverou, this is THIS WEEK's call and agenda
# [18:03] <fantasai> fantasai: LC wasn't published
# [18:03] * dbaron wonders what the unminuted discussion was
# [18:03] <fantasai> florian: It sort-of was. if you add -1 to the end of the url, it's published there
# [18:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Was an announcement posted to www-style?
# [18:03] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:03] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables-1/
# [18:03] <florian> not LC: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables/
# [18:03] <florian> LC: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables-1/
# [18:03] <fantasai> fantasai: If it wasn't announced and didn't show up at the old URL, I don't think we can consider it published.
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# [18:04] <fantasai> glazou: Was it announced to chairs@?
# [18:04] <fantasai> plh would have to look into it
# [18:04] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0701.html
# [18:04] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P108
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# [18:05] <glenn> zakim, ??p108 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
# [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: I would be uncomfortable closing the LC period if no announcement was posted in CSSWG channels
# [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: and it didn't even show up to replace the old draft
# [18:05] <fantasai> florian: There's also 3 open issues in the ED
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# [18:05] <fantasai> glazou: Not announced on www-style. This is painful
# [18:06] <fantasai> fantasai: It's the editor's responsibility to publish the draft
# [18:06] <fantasai> dbaron: But nobody tells the editor that the draft has been published
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:06] <fantasai> glazou: What should we do?
# [18:06] <fantasai> plh: I would concur with fantasai. If it wasn't announced, redo LC period
# [18:06] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:06] <fantasai> florian: Need to get the links in synch
# [18:07] <fantasai> ACTION plh: have /TR/css-variables/ alias to /TR/css-variables-1/
# [18:07] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:07] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:07] <trackbot> Created ACTION-569 - Have /TR/css-variables/ alias to /TR/css-variables-1/ [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2013-07-31].
# [18:07] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
# [18:07] <fantasai> chrisL: I would just extend the deadline
# [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: There were also some significant changes we wanted to make, so maybe we should make those changes and republish LC
# [18:08] <fantasai> ...
# [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: There's an issue for example on interaction with the 'all' property, and we decided it doesn't reset variables, but an 'var' shorthand will reset all variables, so that needs to be added to the draft.
# [18:09] <fantasai> chrisL: Doesn't sound like too much work, could publish on Tuesd probably
# [18:10] <fantasai> dbaron: What values does 'var' take?
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# [18:10] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Same as 'all'?
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# [18:10] <fantasai> fantasai: I think Tab proposed <'all'>
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:10] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaee
# [18:10] <fantasai> dbaron: Initial/inherit, do they have special behavior?
# [18:11] * fantasai doesn't know
# [18:11] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:11] <c_palmer> Zakim, shezbaig_wk.a is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
# [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: This seems really hacky.
# [18:11] <SimonSapin> Does <'all'> makes Variables refer normatively to Cascade?
# [18:11] <fantasai> yes
# [18:11] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: If 'initial', 'inherit', and 'default' aren't interpreted, then it's special?
# [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yeah, well, we haven't decided on that anyway
# [18:12] <fantasai> ...
# [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The 'var' property isn't a custom property, it's a CSS thing. Assuming that we need that.
# [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Thought we were going to LC
# [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: ...
# [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: I would like the use case for this
# [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Want to block variables inside your little subtree
# [18:13] <dbaron> I'm inclined to think a 'var' shorthand should take only 'initial'.
# [18:13] <fantasai> florian: So, either we decide this is minor enough to handle as an LC comment
# [18:13] <glazou> dbaron, +1
# [18:14] <fantasai> florian: Or we take advantage of having screwed up LC, make the change, and then publish LC
# [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: If we want to make this change, would suggest we resolve this and republish LC. It's a fairly significant change.
# [18:15] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:15] <fantasai> [argument over process]
# [18:15] <dbaron> I've had enough of the chair yelling at the WG.
# [18:15] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:15] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
# [18:15] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
# [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: Let's prep the document for a new publication.
# [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: Enough on this topic for today
# [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: Conditional Rules
# [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: dbaron lost, because can't stand ppl being unhappy. Next topic
# [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
# [18:16] <antonp> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:16] <Zakim> antonp should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
# [18:17] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
# [18:17] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: What do we want to do, before republishing 2.1
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Thought the errata were up-to-date, but some weeks of minutes I haven't checked yet.
# [18:17] * TabAtkins doesn't even understand what Glazou is being angry about, so shrug. Good for him.
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Then there's all the issues in Bugzilla. How many do we want to solve? Do we want to set a deadline for solving them?
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: How much effort do we want for those issues
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Also about testing
# [18:17] * plh doesn't understand why we're pushing a doc to LC that still have uncertainties around
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: The changes we made, I've seen 1-2 that have testcases
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: Don't know if others do. Doubt it.
# [18:18] <glazou> plh, +1
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: We need to make sure the changes we make are supported by testcases
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: Someone needs to do that
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: and also need implementations for those testcases
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: Any idea of how much effort we need, when we could finish, schedule updated publication?
# [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe make a schedule where we deal with 1 issue per [time period]
# [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Wrt testcases, dunno, ask rhauck?
# [18:20] <fantasai> florian: What about publication? How often do we want to publish?
# [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: Need to have tests + impl reports for PER pbulication
# [18:20] <fantasai> florian: But how many issues do we want to solve before publishing?
# [18:20] <fantasai> antonp: Depends on how WG perceives last publish date.
# [18:20] <fantasai> antonp: If you want to send signal that it's improving, republish every 6 months
# [18:21] <fantasai> antonp: Sorry for being out of action on this
# [18:21] <fantasai> antonp^: Not sure makes sense to republish with only 1 erratum
# [18:22] <Ms2ger> Six months is ~25 telcons, so if you decide on one issue every telcon...
# [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the main thing is to make sure the existing errata are correct, have testcases, impl report
# [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Once we're there, can publish any time we want
# [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: Some of them, might be waiting on implementations to catch up, so would incorporate more issue updates while we wait for that before publishing. That might set the rhythm
# [18:23] <fantasai> JohnJansen: There's also testcases added to the test suite since we publishe REC. Would need to make sure we have impl passes for all of those as well
# [18:23] <fantasai> florian: Is there a rule for handling such things?
# [18:24] <fantasai> JohnJansen: Raises question of what REC means if we publish a new testsuite
# [18:24] <fantasai> florian: It wouldn't make sense to me to block republication of REC on that. it's not like we regressed
# [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: Most concrete thing I heard was to go over the errata that we decided on, make sure correct and have tests
# [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: Maybe we can assign action items for that?
# [18:25] <fantasai> Bert: Since I made the errata, I should not check them :)
# [18:25] <fantasai> Bert: Errata have links to minutes, so should be easy
# [18:25] <fantasai> florian: Not a lot of work, but can be pretty subtle
# [18:25] <fantasai> florian: Sometimes wording in errata slightly off from decisions, problem
# [18:26] <fantasai> antonp: Yeah, we have an existing case of that
# [18:26] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: Review CSS2.1 errata
# [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-570 - Review CSS2.1 errata [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-07-31].
# [18:26] <fantasai> ACTION antonp: Review CSS2.1 errata
# [18:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:26] <trackbot> Error finding 'antonp'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Rebecca, can you and gtalbot look into that?
# [18:27] <fantasai> ACTION rhauck: Look into tests for CSS2.1 errata
# [18:27] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [18:27] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-571 - Look into tests for CSS2.1 errata [on Rebecca Hauck - due 2013-07-31].
# [18:27] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:28] <fantasai> dirk's topic deferred to next week
# [18:28] <fantasai> Topic: Republishing Values
# [18:28] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0051.html
# [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Handful of changes, very minor, not worth LC, but good to correct on /TR
# [18:28] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Changes in changes section of spec
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# [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: What do ppl think?
# [18:29] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Yes, let's republish
# [18:29] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Republish Values as CR
# [18:29] <fantasai> Topic: Flexbox LC
# [18:29] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0051.html
# [18:29] <fantasai> skipping to Cascade
# [18:29] <fantasai> Topic: Cascade
# [18:30] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0478.html
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Two issues that needed final resolution.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: First was dropping "default". Second was adding "unset" for "initial or inherit".
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Any comments? Do we want to accept the changes?
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# [18:31] <SimonSapin> sounds good
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# [18:32] <florian> given my understanding, I am fine with it.
# [18:32] <fantasai> next issue -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0508.html
# [18:32] <SteveZ> From last week's mintues: fantasai: Proposal is to remove "default" and change the name of "initial-or-inherit" to "unset"
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# [18:33] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept the default/unset changes.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Next issue is somewhat tricky.
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# [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The problem with 'all' is that it kills *everything*.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We were like, are there certain rules we really dont' want people to reset without having explicitly decided to do so?
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We went through Firefox's UA stylesheet.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Resetting most things are fine.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But there are two properties which we realized nobody should be touching unless they're explicitly going against our recommendation not to touch it, for some reason.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Those two are 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi'.
# [18:34] <ChrisL> almost-all ?
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right now, 'all' will reset those.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Which might be okay on an LTR page, but on RTL it'll break things by resetting explicit values.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi' tehe only properties we'll do this with? Should those not have been proeprties at all?
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, those two should not have ever been CSS properties.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: They were added because people thought that was the right way to handle non-HTML bidi requirements.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Personally I think it would have been smarter to add an xml:dir attribute, but we have 'direction' now.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: CSS3 says "dont' use these properties, use the markup instead".
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's *possible* we might add new things, but unlikely.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> antonp: I don't like a property called 'all' that's not actually all.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that's why I'm less certain we should tie it to language.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> antonp: The reason the bidi ones are being excluded is because they shouldn't have been properties in the first place, but I don't think that set should grow.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: One thing you said is that direction isn't really part of styling, but rather a content quality.
# [18:38] * antonp is fine with 'all' that excludes these mistake-properties, but doesn't like 'all' that does more
# [18:38] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#all-shorthand
# [18:38] * Zakim sees http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#all-short on the speaker queue
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Perhaps that should be indicated as tdhe reason for th eexlucsion in the spec.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's already in the spec. ^_^
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> zakim, lolwut
# [18:38] <Zakim> I don't understand 'lolwut', TabAtkins
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> Bert: Aren't the custom properties also an exception to the 'all' rule?
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, because they're not CSS properties.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, Variables already has an issue for this.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: David Baron just sent an email to the list with roughly the same consensus (not liking exceptions, but maybe being okay with the two properties).
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm okay with just limiting it to the two properties, and not doing [lang] stuff.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> [jokey discussion about changing it to 'most']
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: 'all' does not reset 'direction' or 'unicode-bidi' (or custom properties)
# [18:42] <BradK> Can I set 'all:red' and have it affect everything that takes a color as a value?
# [18:42] * florian thinks "all" is short enough to not specify all the *what*, so I'll just interpret it as meaning "all the properties that are reasonable to reset"
# [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0518.html
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# [18:43] <TabAtkins> Topic: Flexbox LC
# [18:43] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's the DoC, and there's a handful of open issues we're still trying to resolve.
# [18:43] <SimonSapin> BradK: not per the current spec
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: People who ware interested in flexbox should probably hang out in the list and help us out.
# [18:43] <SimonSapin> s/BradK:/BradK,/
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Issue #3 - why doesn't height:100% on the child of a stretched flex item take effect?
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We thought there wasn't a good reason that it doesn't work.
# [18:44] * plh Tab, would September 4 work for you as the new end date for the CSS Variable LC?
# [18:44] <BradK> SimonSapin: Maybe it should. Do you know if this has been discussed on the list?
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Relatedly, I think MS will do %ages even if the flexbox isn't a definite size - one pass treating the %ages as auto, resolve the size of the flexbox, then do another layout pass with that as the definite size.
# [18:45] <SimonSapin> BradK, I think it hasn’t been discussed, but I don’t like it :)
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Issue 19 is about the implied minimum size of flex items. We resolved to revert it to zero, but there's a thread about that maybe not being a good idea. There's an ongoing discussion.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Finally, if you have two flexbox children that are table-cell, shoudl they be converted directly to block (and be independent flex items), or first wrapped in an anonymous table and then made into a flex item.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There is differening impl behavior between FF and webkit/blink, at least.
# [18:46] <BradK> SimonSapin: Yeah, there's probably no real value in doing that. Never mind.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Last is about the static position of flex and grid items. We can probably leave that open during the LC, as it doesn't necessarily imply a change to Flexbox.
# [18:46] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's an overview of the issues, so it would be good to get the opinions of interested people.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Can you provide pro/cons for the table-cell case?
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right now, if you ever have two adjacent table-cells, we'll wrap them in a table.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Flexbox says the same thing at the moment.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you have a few table-cells, and you're expecting the anonymous box behavior, that's what you want.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: On the other hand, you might want to be using table layout as a fallback for flexbox, in which case you want the cells to be independent.
# [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Another arg in favor of anon-box behavior is that for other box model things, like run-in and ruby
# [18:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We will want to do box-fixup first
# [18:49] * TabAtkins has to mute because of vacuums.
# [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: I totally agree with TabAtkins on run-in and ruby and other things
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I've relied on it in the past. :/
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Is there a way of getting the non-fixup behavior by some other means?
# [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: Just for tables, seems like we have good use case for recomputing 'display' instead, and since anon table box generation is somewhat complicated, less likely to be used.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: You can set display:table instead, if you want.
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# [18:50] <TabAtkins> Rossen: There's also an expectation of what the fixup is going to be.
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# [18:51] <TabAtkins> Rossen: In flow layout, if you have two adjacent table-cells, you'll get a single wrapper around them.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> Rossen: I think we should make a deliberate decision over whether to have same behavior in both layout systems or not.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> Rossen: I'm not saying there's a ton of interop in block layout, but at least in these simple cases, there's interop.
# [18:53] * smfr has to go
# [18:53] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:53] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> [discusses how to detect the beahvior, so we know IE's treatment]
# [18:54] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20flex%3B%20flex-flow%3A%20column%22%3E%0Atest%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20table-cell%22%3EA%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3A%20table-cell%22%3EB%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0Atest%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: In the above, if A and B are nexxt to each other, you do table fixup (they're in a single table). If they're vertical, you don't do fixup (they're separate flex items).
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> Rossen: IE does the fixup.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Mozilla too.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Chrome does not.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So unless anyone else has comments, maybe we just stay with what we have, and do the fixup?
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Can we delay the decision a week?
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sure.
# [18:56] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: One more thing for next week - I'd like to ahve Steve and Alan and Jdaggett to help solve the last three issues with CSS3 Text. These are the last holding up LC.
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# [18:57] <TabAtkins> SteveZ: Do you have suggested text for the letter-spacing justification?
# [18:57] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:57] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:57] <Zakim> -briankardell
# [18:57] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [18:57] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:57] <Zakim> -sgalineau
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:57] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:57] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:57] * Quits: Dael (~Dael@public.cloak) ("Bye")
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:58] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Plh
# [18:58] <Zakim> -c_palmer
# [18:58] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:58] <Zakim> -fantasai
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# [18:58] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:58] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:58] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
# [18:58] <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, did you see my email about -webkit-font-smoothing/osx-font-smoothing/othername? I'd be interested in hearing if any blink developers have an opinion.
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# [18:58] <Zakim> -??P21
# [19:01] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.520.280.aaaa, glazou, briankardell, +1.206.675.aabb, sgalineau, plinss, dael, florian, BradK, Plh, +93192aacc, antonp, SimonSapin, Lea, fantasai, JohnJansen,
# [19:01] <Zakim> ... Bert, +1.415.615.aadd, rhauck, [IPcaller], shezbaig_wk, smfr, krit, dbaron, SteveZ, ChrisL, glenn, [Microsoft], MaRakow, +1.832.797.aaee, Rossen, TabAtkins, c_palmer, nvdbleek
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yes, I have, but I haven't been into work since then. ^_^ I'll respond tomorrow, if that's okay.
# [19:02] <dbaron> TabAtkins, ok, then I'll postpone making a final decision from today to tomorrow
# [19:03] <dbaron> TabAtkins, thanks
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# [19:23] <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, Zakim responds to anything with "hand" at the end as raising a hand for the queue
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# [20:56] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# [21:44] <dbaron> Would it help to have a separate list (public-css-publications) for all publication-related traffic for the working group? That is, all webreq threads, all threads on scheduling a director's decision, etc.?
# [21:45] <fantasai> Help with what?
# [21:45] <dbaron> Keeping track of what has and hasn't happened?
# [21:45] <fantasai> I think the only thing that would help with would be reducing traffic on w3c-css-wg
# [21:45] <fantasai> Ah
# [21:45] <fantasai> Currently I just CC w3c-css-wg
# [21:45] <dbaron> yes, but not everybody does
# [21:45] <dbaron> so some webreq threads don't have w3c-css-wg on them
# [21:46] <fantasai> in that case, I'm in favor of either always CCing it or adding a new ML if ppl think that would be annoying
# [21:47] <fantasai> w3c-css-wg is currently topic'd to include administrivia, so I'm ok with that
# [21:51] * fantasai notes that the publish instructions on the wiki include a CC to w3c-css-wg
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# [21:52] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:54] <plh> I didn't read the publish instructions before dealing with the docs. oops.
# [21:54] <plh> the latest version snafu on css variables has been fixed btw
# [21:59] <fantasai> plh: Again, not your fault.
# [21:59] <fantasai> plh: That's Tab's fault.
# [21:59] <fantasai> plh: He's the editor, he's supposed to deal with announcements.
# [21:59] <fantasai> on the topic of which, TabAtkins you are late with the Counter Styles LC announcement. Get going.
# [22:00] <fantasai> >:[
# [22:00] <fantasai> Don't forget to CC i18n/a11y/htmlwg/whatwg
# [22:01] <dbaron> I think Bert already sent LC announcements to the other WGs, just not www-style?
# [22:01] <fantasai> I'd expect him to email chairs@, unsure if he hit the public mailing lists
# [22:01] <fantasai> www-international, etc.
# [22:01] <fantasai> nope
# [22:01] <fantasai> didn't
# [22:02] <dbaron> I also don't think we should impose a workflow with so many interruptions on editors
# [22:02] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/mid/201307161557.23119.bert@w3.org
# [22:02] <fantasai> Well, then propose a better one
# [22:02] <dbaron> send the announcements at the same time as the publication request
# [22:03] <dbaron> and link to a permanent copy of the TR draft hosted on dev.w3.org
# [22:03] <fantasai> It's hard to link to a publication that doesn't exist yet?
# [22:03] <dbaron> and then ignore when it's actually published on TR, and don't use that link
# [22:03] <fantasai> heh
# [22:03] <dbaron> allows it to be all done at once
# [22:03] <fantasai> plh, what do you think of that? We ignore /TR completely
# [22:03] <dbaron> which makes the later steps much less likely to be dropped on the floor
# [22:03] <fantasai> :)
# [22:08] <plh> I agree with David that the current way is awkward
# [22:09] <plh> if I'm going to deal with the webmaster directly, I'd rather send the annoucements directly rather having to ping the editor for that
# [22:10] <plh> and a lot of those announcements are similar and could be done with templates
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# [22:10] <dbaron> there's even a template on the wiki
# [22:10] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
# [22:13] <plh> fantasai, btw, on a separate topic, I'll use some of my free time at the end of august to link the editors draft in /TR
# [22:13] <fantasai> with examples!
# [22:13] <fantasai> plh: ??
# [22:14] <plh> we'll start listing the editors' dratf from /TR
# [22:14] <plh> not the WDs
# [22:14] <plh> not jsut the WDs
# [22:15] <fantasai> from the index page, you mean?
# [22:15] <plh> yes
# [22:15] <fantasai> That's nice to have.
# [22:15] <fantasai> I would rather /TR actually *host* the editor's drafts.
# [22:15] <plh> and probably have /TR/editors
# [22:15] <fantasai> or something halfway between an editor's draft and a WD
# [22:16] <plh> at the moment, we'll just take whatever is linked from the WD
# [22:17] <fantasai> I think it's great to have /TR's index page link the editor's drafts
# [22:17] <fantasai> but I think it's a travesty that the drafts people refer to are not hosted on /TR
# [22:17] <fantasai> but in random repositories all over the place
# [22:17] <fantasai> it's very silly
# [22:17] <hober> yeah
# [22:17] <fantasai> *silly*
# [22:18] <hober> or whatever, have a /DR for "draft reports"
# [22:18] <hober> but having a heterogeneous mixture of "dev.w3.org","dvcs.w3.org",etc. links is nuts
# [22:18] <fantasai> hear, hear!
# [22:18] <fantasai> (read, read?)
# [22:18] <plh> I thought we were not supposed to read uris... :)
# [22:19] <fantasai> that, good sir, is an idealistic fantasy
# [22:19] <fantasai> Even Googlebot reads URIs
# [22:20] <fantasai> No, really, /TR/css-counter-styles/ should just point at whatever the CSSWG considers to be the thing people should be looking at
# [22:20] <hober> besides we call them URLs these days. :)
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# [22:21] <fantasai> unless we want to deprecate /TR as an official spec repository and turn it into a mere archive of outdated drafts
# [22:21] <fantasai> (which is, frankly, what it is functioning as these days; there's just no coherent replacement yet)
# [22:23] <fantasai> Proposed solution's on spec-prod http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2013JulSep/0003.html
# [22:23] <fantasai> fwiw
# [22:23] <fantasai> The only people who object are the ones who think /TR is functional right now
# [22:23] <plh> yes, except that I don't have the resources th do such thing before at least 2014
# [22:24] <fantasai> Hey, if we're moving in that direction, it's an improvement :)
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# [22:24] <plh> I'm trying to at least
# [22:24] <fantasai> :)
# [22:25] <fantasai> It's possible we could have a centralized server to host the "live" drafts elsewhere, and use magic serve incantations to make it look like they're hosted on www.w3.org. I think plinss did something like that with the CSS drafts...
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# [22:25] <fantasai> In which case, I'm sure some of the grumpy people here with IT skills can help set up that server
# [22:26] * fantasai isn't well-versed enough in server spells to say, whether that's possible
# [22:26] <plh> technically, that would be possible with the current www.w3.org
# [22:27] <fantasai> alright then, suppose you get approval for us to make this happen, and we find the people to set up that central server?
# [22:27] <fantasai> And eventually W3C IT can take it over
# [22:27] <fantasai> Does that seem reasonable?
# [22:27] <plh> I'm saying I don't think we need the central server. it could be done with the existing www.w3.org.
# [22:28] <fantasai> I think checking everything into W3C CVS might be miserable :)
# [22:28] <plh> let me work on the new webmaster and get him on board in the next 2 months
# [22:28] <plh> fantasai, I think a simple .htaccess would do the trick
# [22:28] <fantasai> ok
# [22:31] <fantasai> I assume you mean some kind of redirect into a non-CVS-controlled directory?
# [22:31] <fantasai> in which case, the hard part would probably be configuring things so editors can push to it...
# [22:32] * fantasai ponders using SVN for this.
# [22:33] <fantasai> I think that would actually work... using SVN. You'd check in the .svn directory into your spec repository, whatever it is (hg, git, etc)
# [22:33] <fantasai> assuming it doesn't keep around user data in there
# [22:33] * fantasai is unsure about that
# [22:34] <fantasai> and then anyone can issue the svn command to commit to www.w3.org
# [22:34] <fantasai> if they have the right access
# [22:34] <fantasai> you'd kindof be versioning the same files in two systems at once
# [22:34] <plh> I'm worried into forcing the editors into one versioning system nowadays
# [22:34] <plh> we have drafts on dev, dvcs, github
# [22:35] <fantasai> yeah
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# [22:35] <fantasai> in this case, you could use whatever you wanted, but when you pushed to /TR you'd have to use SVN
# [22:35] <fantasai> if anyone actually could use anything they wanted without using SVN
# [22:35] <fantasai> probably it's a bit more complicated
# [22:35] <fantasai> because the directory structures won't all match
# [22:35] <fantasai> but maybe doable anyway
# [22:35] <fantasai> with a lot of scripts
# [22:38] <fantasai> I guess if you just set up a cron job with a pull request for each spec repo you want to host, that'd work
# [22:38] * fantasai is not an IT person, obviously
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# [22:39] <fantasai> I'd want to be able to tag revisions to show, or tag revisions to hide, in that case.
# [22:39] <fantasai> Sometimes Tab and I check in half-finished work :)
# [22:41] * fantasai goes back to formatting minutes, which doesn't require any IT skills
# [22:50] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:04] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [23:10] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:10] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
# [23:19] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:20] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [23:20] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [23:20] * Quits: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak) ("")
# [23:42] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# Session Close: Thu Jul 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)