/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-07-31 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 31 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  4. # [00:16] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  5. # [00:17] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  6. # [00:18] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  7. # [00:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  8. # [00:28] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  9. # [00:28] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  10. # [00:28] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  11. # [00:36] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  12. # [00:40] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  13. # [01:02] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  14. # [01:11] * Joins: donhorst (~donhorst@public.cloak)
  15. # [01:11] * Quits: donhorst (~donhorst@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  16. # [01:21] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  17. # [01:37] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  18. # [01:59] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  19. # [02:00] * Joins: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  20. # [02:06] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  21. # [02:23] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) (lmclister)
  22. # [02:46] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  23. # [03:05] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  24. # [03:09] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  25. # [03:22] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  26. # [03:23] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  27. # [03:57] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
  28. # [05:31] * Quits: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  29. # [05:59] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  30. # [06:28] * Joins: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  31. # [06:34] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  32. # [07:23] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  33. # [07:35] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  34. # [07:37] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  35. # [08:15] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  36. # [08:45] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  37. # [09:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  38. # [09:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  39. # [09:14] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  40. # [09:21] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  41. # [09:24] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  42. # [09:32] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  43. # [09:35] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  44. # [09:46] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  45. # [09:57] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  46. # [10:15] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  47. # [10:25] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  48. # [10:49] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
  49. # [10:49] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  50. # [10:53] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  51. # [10:55] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  52. # [10:57] * Quits: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  53. # [11:24] * Joins: abucur (~abucur@public.cloak)
  54. # [11:47] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  55. # [11:49] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  56. # [11:55] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  57. # [12:05] * Quits: cabanier1 (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  58. # [12:05] * Joins: abucur_ (~abucur@public.cloak)
  59. # [12:06] * Quits: abucur (~abucur@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  60. # [12:32] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  61. # [12:47] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  62. # [13:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  63. # [13:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  64. # [13:16] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  65. # [13:19] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  66. # [13:21] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  67. # [13:28] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  68. # [13:42] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  69. # [13:53] * Joins: michou (~Adium@public.cloak)
  70. # [13:54] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  71. # [13:56] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
  72. # [14:08] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  73. # [14:19] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  74. # [14:20] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  75. # [14:40] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  76. # [14:46] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
  77. # [14:55] * Joins: abucur__ (~abucur@public.cloak)
  78. # [15:01] * Quits: abucur_ (~abucur@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  79. # [15:01] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  80. # [15:02] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  81. # [15:25] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  82. # [15:30] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
  83. # [16:06] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  84. # [16:14] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  85. # [16:15] * Joins: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  86. # [16:42] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  87. # [16:57] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  88. # [16:57] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  89. # [16:58] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  90. # [16:58] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  91. # [16:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-css-irc
  92. # [16:58] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  93. # [16:58] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
  94. # [16:58] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  95. # [16:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  96. # [16:58] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0685.html'
  97. # [17:28] * Quits: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  98. # [17:36] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  99. # [17:42] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  100. # [17:43] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  101. # [17:49] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  102. # [17:50] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  103. # [17:50] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  104. # [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  105. # [17:51] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  106. # [17:52] <Zakim> +plinss
  107. # [17:52] * Joins: shezbaig_wk (~kvirc@public.cloak)
  108. # [17:52] <Zakim> +??P7
  109. # [17:52] <florian> Zakim, I am P7
  110. # [17:52] <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not see a party named 'P7'
  111. # [17:52] <Zakim> +??P8
  112. # [17:52] <glazou>  Zakim ??P8 is me
  113. # [17:52] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P7
  114. # [17:52] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  115. # [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, ??P8 is me
  116. # [17:53] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  117. # [17:53] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  118. # [17:53] <Zakim> +c_palmer
  119. # [17:54] <shezbaig_wk> Zakim, c_palmer is me
  120. # [17:54] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
  121. # [17:54] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  122. # [17:54] <rhauck> Zakim, aaaa is me
  123. # [17:54] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
  124. # [17:55] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  125. # [17:55] <Zakim> +krit
  126. # [17:55] * Joins: stearns (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  127. # [17:56] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  128. # [17:56] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  129. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Stearns
  130. # [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
  131. # [17:57] * Joins: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak)
  132. # [17:57] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  133. # [17:57] <Zakim> +Lea
  134. # [17:57] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  135. # [17:57] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
  136. # [17:57] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  137. # [17:58] <sgalineau> Zakim, there is no turkish I in my name
  138. # [17:58] <Zakim> I don't understand 'there is no turkish I in my name', sgalineau
  139. # [17:58] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  140. # [17:58] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  141. # [17:58] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  142. # [17:58] <Zakim> -Stearns
  143. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P19
  144. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  145. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  146. # [17:58] <Zakim> +briankardell
  147. # [17:59] <Zakim> +??P14
  148. # [17:59] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P14
  149. # [17:59] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  150. # [17:59] <Zakim> +smfr
  151. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
  152. # [17:59] <Zakim> -Lea
  153. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.417.671.aabb
  154. # [17:59] <Zakim> -Stearns
  155. # [17:59] <glenn> zakim, aabb is me
  156. # [17:59] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  157. # [18:00] <stearns> hmm - may not be able to stay on the call
  158. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  159. # [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai
  160. # [18:00] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  161. # [18:00] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  162. # [18:01] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  163. # [18:01] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  164. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Plh
  165. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> SribeNick: SimonSapin
  166. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
  167. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> Topic: Text 3 issues
  168. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> fantasai: on the ML, edits to justification section
  169. # [18:02] <glazou> see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0092.html
  170. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> fantasai: waiting for SteveZ and jdagget to review and approve
  171. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  172. # [18:02] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  173. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if no comment, next issue
  174. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: jdagget wants to continue discussion on the ML
  175. # [18:03] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  176. # [18:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  177. # [18:03] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  178. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> [discussing what is the 2nd issue]
  179. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P3
  180. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposal: letter-spacing allows justification with space between characters when set to a length
  181. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai: consistent with impls., some content depends on this
  182. # [18:04] <koji> zakim, ??P3 is me
  183. # [18:04] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  184. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dbaron
  185. # [18:04] <fantasai> + consistent with word-spacing
  186. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
  187. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: agree to allow some level of justification if letter-spacing is used
  188. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: not happy as fixed as a way to turn it of
  189. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: letter spacing variation are very small (few %)
  190. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: fixed doesn’t correspond to what people find useful: min, mix variation
  191. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> fantasai: one issue at a time
  192. # [18:06] <Zakim> -koji
  193. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P30
  194. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 1 whether letter-spacing: length suppresses justification
  195. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> fantasai: 2. do we have a way to turn this kind of justification off
  196. # [18:07] <Bert> q+ to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
  197. # [18:07] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
  198. # [18:07] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
  199. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Lea
  200. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: is 2. a way to control it?
  201. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: control is more important
  202. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> fantasai: already resolved to not allow min/max spacing at this level of the spec
  203. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: if you can’t control it, you shouldn’t allow it
  204. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai: then content breaks, impls need to change, and this is inconsistent with word-spacing
  205. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: lets put min/max back on the table
  206. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai: not going to CR if you say we need this, and jdagget says we can’t have this
  207. # [18:08] <plinss> ack bert
  208. # [18:08] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest the question is the wrong way round: we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
  209. # [18:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  210. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Stearns
  211. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> Bert: the way to turn automatic letter-spacing on could be to use the 'distribute' keyword
  212. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  213. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> Bert: maybe not necessary to have control on the limits, but just say there is a limit or no limit on expansion
  214. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> Bert: maybe not further than twice the normal size is good enough
  215. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> Bert: new keyword on text-justify, suggested on the ML. 'unlimited'
  216. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: this is what fixed does
  217. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: the spec does not specify a limit, but gotta be reasonable
  218. # [18:10] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
  219. # [18:10] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  220. # [18:11] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  221. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: kinds of limits I was coming across are +/- 5%, much smaller than half
  222. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> fantasai: letter-spacing also applies between CJK characters, in this can you do not want to limit
  223. # [18:11] <Zakim> -Lea
  224. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: CJK task force has a huge table of cases, it’s not uniform at all. Unclear that this works for CJK
  225. # [18:12] <stearns> thought that 'distribute' is what Bert is suggesting as 'unlimited'
  226. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: algo currently undefined, UAs encouraged to do the right thing
  227. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Lea
  228. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> fantasai: don,t want to have strong limits on what UAs can do: 2.1 says "can not add space between characters for justification"
  229. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> stearns: 'fixed' keyword is not about not allowing variable expansion, it forbids expansion at all
  230. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: goal is to allow CJK to justify correct, so need to lift this limit
  231. # [18:13] <Bert> (To stearns: yes, and I suggest redfining 'distribute' as including an implicit limit, and 'unlimited' is what 'distribute' does now.)
  232. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: also not break content and impls
  233. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: in order to get the previous spec behavior: add the 'fixed' keyword, if that’s what you want
  234. # [18:14] <stearns> Bert: I'd rather leave 'distribute' as is
  235. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: impls will have to add it, but does not break content as its opt-in
  236. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: can add further controls in the future
  237. # [18:14] * sgalineau wonders what could possibly go wrong with something that is 'unlimited'
  238. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> plinss: anybody implemented previous spec behavior?
  239. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai: not that I know of
  240. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> Bert: I,ve been relying on it. letter-spacing: 0
  241. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai: people who don’t read specs don’t do that
  242. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> Bert: content is there for what the spec says, not for future impls
  243. # [18:16] <dbaron> fantasai^: Implementations don't do justification with spacing between latin letters
  244. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> florian: if nobody has implemented it, ???
  245. # [18:16] <smfr> SimonSapin: we can't hear you
  246. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> florian: I think fantasai’s way forward is more managable
  247. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> plinss: continue discussion on email?
  248. # [18:17] <stearns> +1 to fantasai's current wording
  249. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: I think there is some agreement to allow letter-spacing to participate in ???
  250. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: we’re struggling with how to do that with existing impls/spec/content
  251. # [18:17] <florian> If nobody has implemented it, I suspect not many people have written stylesheet that conform to the spec in a way that breaks on current implementation, so while it is unfortunate to contradict ourselves, it still sounds like a less painful way
  252. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: even if we add min/max, you have to turn those one which doesn’t work with existing content
  253. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: unless we have defaults like +/- 5%
  254. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: that’s too small
  255. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> stearns: leave impls. to choose limints
  256. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> stearns: can have controls for the limits later
  257. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> stearns: in favor of fantasai ’s proposal now
  258. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: I may be ok with that
  259. # [18:19] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  260. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: what happens if you say fixed and specify a range
  261. # [18:19] <glazou> TabAtkins, you're super noisy
  262. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> fantasai: you cant
  263. # [18:19] <glenn> zakim, who's noisy?
  264. # [18:19] <glazou> Zakim, mute TabAtkins
  265. # [18:19] <Zakim> TabAtkins should now be muted
  266. # [18:19] <Zakim> glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (9%), SimonSapin (20%), Bert (9%), TabAtkins (21%)
  267. # [18:19] * TabAtkins how weird
  268. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> haha, it's not me!
  269. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> well, i'm still noisy.
  270. # [18:19] <glazou> sorry had to mute you, too noisy ; yeah it was you
  271. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> But the echo wasn't me.
  272. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we add min/max controls in the future, 'fixed' is a shorthand to specify 3 identical values
  273. # [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, unmute TabAtkins
  274. # [18:20] <Zakim> TabAtkins should no longer be muted
  275. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: never able to combine it with a range
  276. # [18:20] * glazou TabAtkins, ah sorry
  277. # [18:20] <glenn> zakim, who's noisy?
  278. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: to do this correctly you need a table for CJK
  279. # [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  280. # [18:20] <Zakim> glenn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (20%), plinss (4%), florian (32%)
  281. # [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, mute florian
  282. # [18:20] <Zakim> florian should now be muted
  283. # [18:20] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (14%), florian (45%)
  284. # [18:21] * glazou sorry TabAtkins
  285. # [18:21] * TabAtkins I forgive you, glazou
  286. # [18:21] * florian muted on my side too now
  287. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: table = range of values depending on context
  288. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: also priorities between adjustments
  289. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: more than %age, more complex in the Japanase Layout Task Force report
  290. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> fantasai: let’s not do that at this level
  291. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: concern with 'fixed' is that it restricts this solution
  292. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: ??? originally designed for latin
  293. # [18:22] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  294. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: hope that UAs do the right thing by default, may take a long time
  295. # [18:23] <tantek> Zakim, Tantek is in Mozilla
  296. # [18:23] <Zakim> +Tantek; got it
  297. # [18:23] <tantek> Zakim, mute Tantek
  298. # [18:23] <Zakim> sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Tantek
  299. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: fine tuning of this is not something we should do now, if at all
  300. # [18:23] <tantek> Zakim, mute Mozilla
  301. # [18:23] <Zakim> [Mozilla] should now be muted
  302. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: OK with that, I just don’t like 'fixed'
  303. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: can we live without it?
  304. # [18:23] * tantek is actually in the office for this telcon
  305. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’m ok with that
  306. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> stearns: one of the use case for 'fixed' is German text, disable letter spacing for justification to avoid confusion with emphasis
  307. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: ???
  308. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: when we see problems, we can engineer the right solution
  309. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: 'fixed' seems to be not terribly helpful
  310. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> plinss: consensus?
  311. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> Bert: what if you do want letter spacing for justification?
  312. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> fantasai: undefined for now
  313. # [18:26] <tantek> Bert: "There are newspapers that do that - more than 5%"
  314. # [18:26] <dbaron> fantasai^: I think not having fixed is what jdaggett originally wanted, so I think we should just resolve on not having 'fixed' and he can object if he wants.
  315. # [18:26] <tantek> perhaps post screenshots of newspapers that do this?
  316. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: we say UAs should "do the right thing"
  317. # [18:26] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  318. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: we need to experiment to see what values/controls make sense
  319. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> Bert: By default I want that limit at 0 or 5%
  320. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> Bert: don’t want to leave it completely open. Impls will do letter-spacing without any limit and we won’t be able to get rid of it anymore
  321. # [18:27] <tantek> Bert: "Would like some way to say, if you use this keyword, then you may use more than 5%"
  322. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> plinss: the default is to whatever you think is right, 'auto' keyword
  323. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: in CJK no one single number gives a good answer
  324. # [18:28] <dbaron> s/in CJK/when mixing Latin and CJK/
  325. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: proposed resolution: accept part one of the proposal
  326. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> Bert: I do not want to allow that between alphabetic letters
  327. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: you have to allow it for 'distribute', need more than 5%
  328. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: bert’s proposal is to only relax when you say 'distribute'
  329. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> Bert: 'auto' means letter-spacing is honored
  330. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> Bert: I have content with letter-spacing:0 because I don’t want expansion
  331. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: existing content that depends on the non-spec behavior of existing impl
  332. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: existing content has letter-spacing:0 and expect expansion
  333. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> Bert: that’s not what the spec says, we don’t have to deal with that
  334. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> ???: yes we do
  335. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> plinss: let’s move one
  336. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> s/one/on/
  337. # [18:31] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  338. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: my understanding is: consensus except for Bert
  339. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: discuss with Bert on the ML
  340. # [18:31] <tantek> stevez: what is the nature of the existing content that would break
  341. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: would be helpful to document what existing content would break
  342. # [18:32] <tantek> fantasai: cjk content that says letter-spacing 0 and expects it to still justify
  343. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> fantasai: CJK content (no spaces) with 'letter-spacing: 0' that expects expansion
  344. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> Bert: problem that fantasai mentioned is the cascading problem
  345. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> Bert: not sure that’s the same
  346. # [18:33] <dbaron> (fantasai seems to have dropped off the call)
  347. # [18:33] * leif what's an "HNJ" problem?
  348. # [18:33] <fantasai> "hyphenation and justification"
  349. # [18:33] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  350. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Topic: Conditional Rules
  351. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> plinss: where are we? Moving the spec forward
  352. # [18:34] * SteveZ H&J is short for Hyphenation and Justification
  353. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I don’t really know
  354. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> plinss: can we look into it and come back to it next week?
  355. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> dbaron: T&A is higher priority
  356. # [18:35] <fantasai> Topic: image-resolution: snap
  357. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> Topic: image-resolution: snap
  358. # [18:35] <smfr> s/span/snap?
  359. # [18:35] <fantasai> SimonSapin: wrt snap keyword of image-resolution
  360. # [18:35] <fantasai> SimonSapin: It's not really well-defined in CSS what the resolution is
  361. # [18:35] <fantasai> SimonSapin: esp. wrt zoom and transforms
  362. # [18:36] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Consensus on ML seems to be that transforms don't affect snap
  363. # [18:36] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Zoom that changes size of viewport should affect snap, but purely "optical" zoom should not
  364. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Need some place that actually defines concept of viewport-zoom vs. other zoom
  365. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This distinction also affects device-pixel-ratio etc.
  366. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The things that 'snap' responds to are same as canvas
  367. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Dunno where to define
  368. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: I think MQ is a good place to define this
  369. # [18:37] <Zakim> -florian
  370. # [18:38] <fantasai> SimonSapin: What about device-adapt spec?
  371. # [18:38] * florian sounds like a pretty bad time for the connection to drop :(
  372. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: That might be ok, too. What is the status of that anyway?
  373. # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: No WD since 2011
  374. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: should poke Opera
  375. # [18:38] * sgalineau is the editor still at Opera?
  376. # [18:38] <Zakim> +??P2
  377. # [18:39] <fantasai> ACTION TabAtkins: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
  378. # [18:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  379. # [18:39] <trackbot> Error finding 'TabAtkins'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  380. # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 1
  381. # [18:39] <oyvind> device-adapt? yes
  382. # [18:39] <sgalineau> florian: yes, the editor is still at Opera
  383. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> ACTION Tab: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
  384. # [18:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  385. # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 2
  386. # [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-572 - Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-08-07].
  387. # [18:39] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P2
  388. # [18:39] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  389. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: visual zoom vs. layout zoom
  390. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Define snap to respond only to layout zoom
  391. # [18:40] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Units for image-resolution from-image
  392. # [18:40] <dbaron> I would *not* use the terms "visual zoom" and "layout zoom" that TabAtkins suggested
  393. # [18:40] <dbaron> The distinction really has to do with whether there's one viewport or two.
  394. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Suggestions welcome, dbaron. ^_^
  395. # [18:40] <fantasai> SimonSapin: 2 values for horizontal and vertical resolution
  396. # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: Think that's out of scope for L3
  397. # [18:40] <fantasai> SimonSapin: When you have from-image, some images can have 2 values
  398. # [18:41] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So CSS should also be able to handle that
  399. # [18:42] <fantasai> florian: Given from-image is in this level, maybe do it in this level
  400. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: Could just allow it via from-image
  401. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Ordering of dimensions should be same as border-spacing, background-image...
  402. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Note it's physical
  403. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Well, logical in relation to the image
  404. # [18:43] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Will interact with image-orientation
  405. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: yep
  406. # [18:44] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Move to ML for details?
  407. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds reasonable. Maybe draft up text and bring back to WG?
  408. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: Anyone else on this topic?
  409. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution
  410. # [18:44] <fantasai> SimonSapin: from-image metadata, e.g. png spec has number of image pixels per cm or whatever
  411. # [18:45] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Do we interpret that as CSS units rather than physical units?
  412. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes
  413. # [18:45] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Clarify in spec
  414. # [18:45] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units are used for from-image resolution as well as CSS-explicit resolutions
  415. # [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: Matrix FPWD
  416. # [18:46] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/
  417. # [18:47] <fantasai> krit: We wanted to have an interface that can handle 3D as well
  418. # [18:47] <fantasai> krit: Could have Matrix interface used by SVG and CSS together
  419. # [18:47] <fantasai> krit: Hopefully CSS will eventually expose the matrix interface
  420. # [18:47] <fantasai> s/CSS/CSSOM/
  421. # [18:47] <fantasai> krit: So wanted a joint specification
  422. # [18:47] * glazou supports FPWF for CSSMatrix interface
  423. # [18:47] <glazou> s/FPWF/FPWD
  424. # [18:47] <fantasai> krit: would like to ask for feedbac, fpwd
  425. # [18:47] <plh> q+
  426. # [18:47] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  427. # [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Already asked for review 3-4 weeks ago, no feedback
  428. # [18:48] <fantasai> plh: You name the interface CSSMatrix
  429. # [18:48] <fantasai> plh: Do you imply it can only be used by CSS?
  430. # [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Was called Matrix before, but not happy for WebGL people
  431. # [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Not useful for them
  432. # [18:48] <tantek> "Matrix that is proposed for the whole web"!
  433. # [18:48] <tantek> this aligns with my interests
  434. # [18:48] <fantasai> krit: Asked us to use a more specific name
  435. # [18:49] * glazou ROFL tantek
  436. # [18:49] <fantasai> krit: since used for CSS Transforms, called it CSSMatrix
  437. # [18:49] * tantek :) glazou
  438. # [18:49] <dbaron> I'm not convinced be the argument that it should have a CSS prefix
  439. # [18:49] <tantek> dbaron++
  440. # [18:49] * fantasai too
  441. # [18:49] * sgalineau hands tantek a red pill
  442. # [18:49] <dbaron> s/be/by/
  443. # [18:50] <fantasai> Bert: If we make this SVGMatrix, maybe SVGWG can take care of publishing? ;)
  444. # [18:50] * sgalineau PLH bikesheds the name. what could go wrong?
  445. # [18:50] <fantasai> glazou: Is name of interface a blocker for FPWD?
  446. # [18:51] <tantek> I suggest we go FPWD without prefix
  447. # [18:51] <sgalineau> TransformMatrix?
  448. # [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think it is, but should note the issue.
  449. # [18:51] * fantasai likes it!
  450. # [18:51] <tantek> OH: "… then wait for last call to change the name"
  451. # [18:51] * plh wonders what he was thinking before asking a naming question in the middle of a CSS meeting
  452. # [18:51] <fantasai> smfr notes that there's also CSSPoint interface
  453. # [18:51] * tantek plh - obv trolling
  454. # [18:52] <fantasai> krit: Also have a DOMPoint interface
  455. # [18:52] <fantasai> krit: Think I added an issue... it's under discussion.
  456. # [18:52] * sgalineau only at LC, PLH. Only at LC.
  457. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: So, note the issues, publish FPWD?
  458. # [18:52] * plh wonders if Tantek sees his emails lately...
  459. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix
  460. # [18:52] * tantek wonders about emails often.
  461. # [18:52] * glazou plh, technically the end of a CSS meeting, fortunately :-D
  462. # [18:53] <fantasai> Topic: Flexbox
  463. # [18:53] * tantek is pleased to see the Matrix make progress.
  464. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: I guess we discussed converting table-cells to flex items
  465. # [18:54] * glazou "Matrix, unprefixed", director Tantek Çelik ?
  466. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Do you have @supports yet? I think I would be uncomfortable not having good fallback from flex to tables if we don't have good support for @supports
  467. # [18:54] <Zakim> -briankardell
  468. # [18:54] * plh maybe CSSMatrix is only intended to work on CSS Pixels
  469. # [18:55] <fantasai> Rossen: min-size?
  470. # [18:55] <tantek> and look it's the top of the hour
  471. # [18:55] <Zakim> -??P30
  472. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Different issue.
  473. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Read & comment on thread
  474. # [18:56] * plh tantek, any chance you and I connect before the end of the week?
  475. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Think we can go with box-fixup clarification
  476. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: and revisit during LC if necessary
  477. # [18:56] * tantek plh - it's a pretty busy week - preparing for things next week. Jaffe meeting, SocialWeb workshop.
  478. # [18:56] <dbaron> If you're planning to come (or might come, please list probability) to the Paris F2F, please add yourself to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013#participants
  479. # [18:56] <fantasai> RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item determination
  480. # [18:57] <Zakim> -rhauck
  481. # [18:57] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  482. # [18:57] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  483. # [18:57] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  484. # [18:57] <Zakim> -glenn
  485. # [18:57] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  486. # [18:57] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  487. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
  488. # [18:57] * plh tantek, ok
  489. # [18:57] * tantek plh - thanks for rel-prerender spec on microformats.org
  490. # [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
  491. # [18:57] <Zakim> -florian
  492. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
  493. # [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
  494. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Stearns
  495. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Plh
  496. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Lea
  497. # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
  498. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  499. # [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
  500. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
  501. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  502. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  503. # [18:57] <Zakim> -plinss
  504. # [18:57] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  505. # [18:57] <Zakim> -koji
  506. # [18:57] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  507. # [18:57] * tantek appreciates that plh can contribute a cc0 spec :)
  508. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  509. # [18:57] * plh tantek, can I? :)
  510. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> dbaron, how was my audio today?
  511. # [18:57] * Quits: shezbaig_wk (~kvirc@public.cloak) ("KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/")
  512. # [18:57] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  513. # [18:58] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  514. # [18:58] * tantek plh - well, you did. it's a contribution requirement for the microformats wiki :)
  515. # [18:58] <dbaron> SimonSapin, not great, I think
  516. # [18:58] * plh oh, good point. you're welcome :)
  517. # [18:58] * tantek sees a way to fix w3c licensing problems, get all w3c staff to contribute a cc0 spec somewhere and realize it doesn't hurt. :)
  518. # [18:59] * plh tantek, I don't think it's the w3c staff which is the issue here...
  519. # [18:59] <SimonSapin> dbaron: still voip distorsion?
  520. # [18:59] * plh my life would be easier otherwise
  521. # [18:59] * SteveZ SimonS your audio was difficult to understand, Possible, but difficult.
  522. # [19:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  523. # [19:00] <SimonSapin> hum, I’ll try another setup next time
  524. # [19:00] <dbaron> SimonSapin, might have been microphone rather than voip
  525. # [19:00] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  526. # [19:01] * tantek plh - it sets a strong positive example for w3c staff to be doing so publicly.
  527. # [19:01] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  528. # [19:02] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
  529. # [19:02] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  530. # [19:04] * Quits: stearns (~anonymous@public.cloak) (stearns)
  531. # [19:05] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  532. # [19:07] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, leif, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  533. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  534. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, florian, glazou, shezbaig_wk, +1.415.832.aaaa, rhauck, krit, Stearns, dael, Lea, SteveZ, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, briankardell, leif, smfr, +1.417.671.aabb,
  535. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... glenn, fantasai, JohnJansen, Plh, koji, dbaron, Bert, TabAtkins, [Mozilla], Tantek
  536. # [19:08] * Parts: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  537. # [19:09] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  538. # [19:10] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  539. # [19:12] <sgalineau> tantek: how does it set a strong example to people whose concerns are legal? can social example mitigate legal issues?
  540. # [19:14] <liam> didn't see the context but yes, it's a common way that laws get to change because of behavioural changes in society
  541. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> liam, cc-0 specs
  542. # [19:20] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  543. # [19:22] <liam> Ms2ger, ah ok
  544. # [19:22] <liam> well, I'm not so sure in that case :)
  545. # [19:23] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  546. # [19:40] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  547. # [20:02] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  548. # [20:22] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  549. # [20:30] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  550. # [20:46] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  551. # [20:49] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  552. # [21:00] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  553. # [21:12] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  554. # [21:19] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  555. # [21:25] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  556. # [21:29] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  557. # [21:31] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  558. # [21:34] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  559. # [21:34] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  560. # [21:39] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  561. # [21:45] * Joins: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  562. # [21:46] * Quits: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  563. # [21:48] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
  564. # [21:55] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  565. # [21:57] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  566. # [21:57] * Quits: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  567. # [21:59] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  568. # [22:26] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  569. # [22:41] * Quits: abucur__ (~abucur@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  570. # [22:48] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  571. # [22:57] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  572. # [22:59] * Joins: florian (~yaaic@public.cloak)
  573. # [22:59] * Quits: florian (~yaaic@public.cloak) ("")
  574. # [23:12] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  575. # [23:24] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
  576. # [23:26] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek_)
  577. # [23:26] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  578. # [23:29] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  579. # [23:39] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  580. # [23:54] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  581. # [23:54] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  582. # Session Close: Thu Aug 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)