/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-08-07 / end

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  40. # [09:54] <zcorpan> can somebody help me create an account for me on https://wiki.csswg.org/ ?
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  68. # [16:31] <glazou> TabAtkins, ping
  69. # [16:38] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0068.html'
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  74. # [17:04] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-css-irc
  75. # [17:04] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  76. # [17:04] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
  77. # [17:04] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  78. # [17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  96. # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  97. # [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
  98. # [17:54] <Zakim> +??P2
  99. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
  100. # [17:54] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  101. # [17:54] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  102. # [17:54] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
  103. # [17:54] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
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  106. # [17:55] <Zakim> +krit
  107. # [17:55] <Zakim> +Bert
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  109. # [17:55] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  110. # [17:55] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  111. # [17:55] <Zakim> +Plh
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  116. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P13
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  119. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Stearns
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  122. # [17:57] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
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  126. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P18
  127. # [17:57] <jdaggett> egads
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  129. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim: ??P18 is me
  130. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  131. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  132. # [17:58] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk
  133. # [17:58] <Zakim> +briankardell
  134. # [17:59] <Zakim> +dael
  135. # [17:59] <Zakim> +dbaron
  136. # [18:00] <SimonSapin> Can I have Zakim somehow recognize me automatically when calling from SIP?
  137. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P24
  138. # [18:00] <glazou> SimonSapin, in theory… yes
  139. # [18:00] <glenn> zakim, ??p24 is me
  140. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  141. # [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai
  142. # [18:00] <SimonSapin> glazou, ideas how?
  143. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Lea
  144. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  145. # [18:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, jdaggett, krit, Bert, Plh, rhauck, ??P13, Stearns, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, shezbaig_wk, briankardell, dael, dbaron, glenn, fantasai, Lea
  146. # [18:01] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  147. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  148. # [18:01] <Zakim> +hober
  149. # [18:01] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
  150. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  151. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
  152. # [18:01] * stearns is holding my phone up in the air to keep a connection
  153. # [18:02] * plh which day is the wine tasting?
  154. # [18:02] * krit stearns and typing with the other hand :)
  155. # [18:02] * krit it is an agenda item!
  156. # [18:02] * leaverou will miss the last day :(
  157. # [18:02] * plh [daniel: probably on last day]
  158. # [18:02] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0686.html
  159. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> Topic: letter-spacing and font-variant ligatures
  160. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Font spec has different ways that OpenType features can be specified
  161. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font-features-settings, ???
  162. # [18:03] <stearns> I prefer to demote precedence of font-variant
  163. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: Other CSS properties that enable/disable font features
  164. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: there is a precedence in the spec
  165. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font-variants and font-feature-settings override other CSS properties
  166. # [18:04] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
  167. # [18:04] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  168. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: example from fantasai: if an author sets ligatures with font-features, this disables letter-spacing
  169. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> dbaron: override that letter-spacing normally disables ligatures
  170. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: proposal: move it to the bottom, so letter-spacing takes priority
  171. # [18:05] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  172. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: other proposal is to allow font-features, which is lower level, to take priority
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  174. # [18:06] <leaverou> I'm afraid this will be confusing to authors ("why aren't my ligatures working?!"). If this behavior is undesired, can't they manually disable ligatures?
  175. # [18:06] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
  176. # [18:06] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  177. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I’m uncomfortable putting things between font-variants and font-feature-settings because font-feature-settings is lower level
  178. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> fantasai: Authors want font-variant’s behavior in most cases
  179. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai: consider higher-precendence controls in Level 4
  180. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> fantasai: if we want we could put font-feature-settings at the bottom
  181. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> fantasai: wanting that level of override is gonna be pretty rare
  182. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: concerned about having sthing overly complex for authors
  183. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: CSS properties should not be setting font features as much as possible
  184. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: it’s confusing of other CSS properties have side effects on what they’re setting
  185. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some crazy combinations are not good
  186. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I’m ok either way
  187. # [18:11] <jerenkrantz> zakim, shezbaig_wk.a has me
  188. # [18:11] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  189. # [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm ok either way [ font-feature-settings last or next-to-last]
  190. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> stearns: I prefer having font-feature-settings be that low-level hatch that you don’t normally use
  191. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I wouldn’t object. It’s weird that the override syntax is so different from normal syntax, but I’d be ok with this
  192. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: resolve? need other people?
  193. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: should resolve on putting it in-between font-variants and font-feature-settings
  194. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: precedence of other CSS properties is in-between font-variant property and font-feature-settings property
  195. # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0411.html
  196. # [18:13] <glazou> 'text-combine-horizontal' and font features (writing modes)
  197. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: wording in spec that says when you enable text-combine-horizontal to something other than the default, it causes the full-width value of font-variant to be ignored
  198. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: I think authors don’t want that
  199. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: not clear when they want to set full-width on in this case
  200. # [18:14] * Quits: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  201. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: using full width glyphs is not what you want
  202. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai: setting on an element doing PCY (?)
  203. # [18:15] * sgalineau is confused; didn't we just say such a property would take precedence over font-variant?
  204. # [18:15] <fantasai> s/PCY/TCY/
  205. # [18:15] <fantasai> tate-chu-yoko
  206. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> fantasai:
  207. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: Not concerned that an author would set this together with TCY on a single element
  208. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: but rather, request full-width glyphs for, say, all the paragraph text
  209. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: and end up with full-width glyphs in a TCY run within that paragraph
  210. # [18:16] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0042.html
  211. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: It's the same situation as with text-transform, which we're already overriding
  212. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: text-transform and full-width value look the same but are very different
  213. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: full-width changes codepoints and thus orientation
  214. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: that’s why authors would want to use it in the first place
  215. # [18:17] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  216. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some fonts don’t have the right glyphs, need to use the full width codepoints
  217. # [18:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: no reason to use full width glyphs in TCY, should to an implicit text transform
  218. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: other properties that affect what digit glyphs are selected
  219. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: conflict with TCY where we pick glyphs to combine
  220. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: specifying full-width glyphs on a paragraph is strange for digits that are gonna be rotated
  221. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: could specify it together with text-orientation:upright
  222. # [18:20] <Zakim> -Lea
  223. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: not a common pattern, shouldn’t add little exceptions for poor authoring choices
  224. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I don’t think it’s poor choices, might want to do that
  225. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: might prefer to stay within the same font that have fallback
  226. # [18:21] * glazou has the feeling this discussion between only 2 people will not lead to a resolution and should be taken back to email
  227. # [18:21] <Zakim> +Lea
  228. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I think the burden of demonstrating use cases it on the person asking for more complexity
  229. # [18:22] <SimonSapin> dbaron: is this a use case we care about? Are ppl writing vertical text without font support?
  230. # [18:22] * krit glazou Is there already a Wiki for agenda items for Paris F2F?
  231. # [18:22] <glazou> krit, http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013
  232. # [18:23] * krit glazou thanks!
  233. # [18:23] <glazou> krit, add the section please
  234. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: some fonts have the same glyphs for full-width and not, only spacing around it changes. Same result in vertical text
  235. # [18:23] * sgalineau is so grateful for scientific notation; without it I couldn't express how much of text layout I understand within the 140-character limit of a tweet.
  236. # [18:23] * glazou maybe we should leave Mozilla reps discuss alone ?
  237. # [18:23] <glazou> sgalineau, lol
  238. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: japanese fonts always upport full-width codepoints, but may not support the feature
  239. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: text-transform is what you want to use
  240. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: mixing latin and japanese fonts gives no good result as latin fonts don’t have vertical metrics
  241. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> glazou: we have at least one objection
  242. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> glazou: take this to the mailing list
  243. # [18:26] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  244. # [18:26] <glazou> or withdraw objection
  245. # [18:26] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0154.html
  246. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> Topic: 'text-combine-horizontal: all' value and inheritance (writing modes)
  247. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: problem is that we have two diffeent kinds of values for text-combine-horizontal
  248. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: one scans for digits to put in a TCY run
  249. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: other value taks the whole content of an element into TCY
  250. # [18:27] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
  251. # [18:27] <jdaggett> ex: <date>2013年１２月２１日</date>
  252. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: on an element that has lots of content,
  253. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: including sub elements
  254. # [18:28] <jdaggett> that will produce *two* tatechuyoko combinations
  255. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> fantasai: the TCY won’t take effect because of the rule of not doing it with element boundaries inside a TCY run
  256. # [18:29] * TabAtkins has arrived!
  257. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we don’t want impls to deal with the complexity
  258. # [18:29] <glazou> krit, +1 on ftf agenda item you suggested, did the very same suggestion to plinss seconds ago
  259. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: side effect is that in this case, it will not for a TCY run itself, but because text-combine-horizontal inherits, descendants may or may not do TCY randomly
  260. # [18:29] <glazou> yo TabAtkins
  261. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> fantasai: want 'all' to be non-inheritable
  262. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: one way to handle that is to make it a shorthand for two properties, one of which inherits
  263. # [18:30] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  264. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> fantasai: other suggestion: keep it inheriting, but ignore 'all' if the parent also has 'all'
  265. # [18:30] <SimonSapin> Rossen: equivalent to not inheriting?
  266. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: kindda, except in CSSOM
  267. # [18:31] <Bert> (Or: if both the vhild and the parent have 'all', apply it to the child only?)
  268. # [18:31] <dbaron> I prefer the second option.
  269. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: background, talking about 2~3 character spans
  270. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Regarding system colors, http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-color/Overview.html#system-colors
  271. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: no need to design complex behavior for nesting
  272. # [18:31] * SimonSapin TabAtkins yeah, saw that
  273. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> dbaron: option 2 sounds fine for me
  274. # [18:32] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  275. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> dbaron: the way to spec it is that 'all' does TCY when the parent does not have 'all', otherwise like 'none'
  276. # [18:32] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  277. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> fantasai: it would break koji’s example
  278. # [18:33] <dbaron> option 2 is "keep it inheriting, but ignore 'all' if the parent also has 'all'"
  279. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> fantasai: text-combine-horizontal:all in an element, and inside that element have a span with text
  280. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> dbaron: if you want that case to work, should ignore the rule for ignoring things that have elements in them
  281. # [18:34] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  282. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Bert: what about reversing parent/child? [see above]
  283. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Rossen: now you have to look forward, layout becomes more complex
  284. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Rossen: at any point, no idea whether something else is supposed to handle this
  285. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> Rossen: would prefer non-inherit by default […]
  286. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> dbaron: that doesn’t work for the 'digits' value
  287. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> jdaggett?: which is the common case
  288. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: multiple properties is the only way to get different inheritance behaviors
  289. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> fantasai: or maybe hack something with 'auto'
  290. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: keep focus on actual use cases
  291. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: few examples of nested elements with TCY
  292. # [18:36] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  293. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: keep exceptional cases as simple as possible
  294. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> dbaron: what existing content would it break?
  295. # [18:38] * Quits: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  296. # [18:38] <koji> <span style="text-combine-horizontal:all"><span>12</span></span>
  297. # [18:38] <Bert> (<x style="..:all:><y>AB</y><y>CD</y></x> could make *two* TCYs...)
  298. # [18:39] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  299. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> fantasai: avoid element boundaries so that implementations don’t have to deal with the complexity
  300. # [18:40] <stearns> data point on creating a fonts/text task force: 75% of call so far
  301. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> dbaron: I’m find with what jdaggett is proposing if we have example of elements inside of TCY
  302. # [18:41] <glazou> stearns, yeah :(
  303. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> glazou: take this to email?
  304. # [18:41] * fantasai notes that neither Bert nor dbaron would be on such a task force, but are participating here
  305. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> Bert: text-decoration property sort of inherits, maybe do something similar?
  306. # [18:43] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0109.html
  307. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> Topic: Next charter
  308. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> Bert: charter runs out in september, we’re already too late
  309. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> Bert: takes a few weeks to discuss the draft, I will be drafting
  310. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> Bert: AC review takes 2~3 weeks plus same for objections
  311. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> Bert: won’t be a problem, we’ll get an extension to bridge the gab
  312. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> s/gab/gap/
  313. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> Bert: priorities? Which drafts can we finish, etc
  314. # [18:44] <SimonSapin> Bert: what can we finish in the next two years
  315. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> Bert: list of CRs in the email
  316. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> glazou: setup a wiki page of all specs? with expected completion date set by editors
  317. # [18:46] * fantasai suggests http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/charter-2013 to parallel http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/charter-2008
  318. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> glazou: that’s one of the options
  319. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> Rossen: let’s go with it
  320. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> glazou: Bert’s list only contains current CRs, some drafts could move faster
  321. # [18:47] <plh> q+
  322. # [18:47] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  323. # [18:47] <SimonSapin> Bert: I’ll add the drafts to the list
  324. # [18:47] <SimonSapin> plh: drafts that the group can foresee will start
  325. # [18:47] <dbaron> can't hear plh
  326. # [18:47] <jdaggett> hard to hear plh
  327. # [18:47] <SimonSapin> plh: that are not yet started
  328. # [18:48] <glazou> XMLCSS !
  329. # [18:49] <dbaron> plh: Also good to get upcoming work items into the charter, for patent policy.
  330. # [18:49] <dbaron> glazou: Hard, since we rely on proposals for new work from the members.
  331. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: do we have proposals that are not drafts yet?
  332. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> jdaggett: font load events
  333. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> dbaron: that was split from another spec
  334. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> Topic: Selectors 4
  335. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: issues still open
  336. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: do people have other issues, concerns, ?
  337. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> fantasai: figure out how to move the draft forward
  338. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> glazou: does :dir() rely on the direction property?
  339. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: it does not
  340. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> fantasai: also some renaming
  341. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> fantasai: also what to have in the fast vs. complete profile
  342. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> glazou: issue a call for review? Give people 2 weeks
  343. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> glazou: it’s a big spec, lots of changes from L3
  344. # [18:54] <dbaron> I'm still uncertain about: the reference and column combinators, :matches() syntax, and the subject indicators. (That's after a quick skim; might have missed something.)
  345. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> ACTION everyone: review Selectors 4 within the next two weeks
  346. # [18:54] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  347. # [18:54] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  348. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 1
  349. # [18:54] <glazou> dbaron, yeah the column combinator seems a bit special to me too
  350. # [18:54] <glazou> SimonSapin, use "all"
  351. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> ACTION all: review Selectors 4 within the next two weeks
  352. # [18:54] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  353. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
  354. # [18:54] <trackbot> Error finding 'all'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  355. # [18:54] <glazou> lol
  356. # [18:55] <dbaron> I'm also unsure about the priority being high enough that we should give everyone a 2 week deadline.
  357. # [18:55] <Zakim> -rhauck
  358. # [18:55] <plh> regrets for next week
  359. # [18:55] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  360. # [18:55] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
  361. # [18:55] <bkardell> bye
  362. # [18:55] * Quits: Dael (~Dael@public.cloak) ("Bye")
  363. # [18:55] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  364. # [18:55] <Zakim> -dbaron
  365. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Stearns
  366. # [18:55] <Zakim> -fantasai
  367. # [18:55] <Zakim> -hober
  368. # [18:55] <Zakim> -dael
  369. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Lea
  370. # [18:55] <Zakim> -glazou
  371. # [18:55] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  372. # [18:55] <Zakim> -koji
  373. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Bert
  374. # [18:55] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  375. # [18:55] * Quits: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  376. # [18:55] <Zakim> -krit
  377. # [18:55] <Zakim> -briankardell
  378. # [18:55] <Zakim> -plinss
  379. # [18:55] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  380. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Plh
  381. # [18:56] <Zakim> -??P13
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  385. # [18:59] <Zakim> -glenn
  386. # [18:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  387. # [18:59] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, jdaggett, krit, Bert, Plh, rhauck, Stearns, SylvaIng, SimonSapin, shezbaig_wk, briankardell, dael, dbaron, glenn, fantasai, Lea, hober, Rossen, koji,
  388. # [18:59] <Zakim> ... jerenkrantz, TabAtkins
  389. # [18:59] <glenn> zakim, bye
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  432. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> dbaron: What was your concern about :matches() syntax? Naming, or something else?
  433. # [22:13] <dbaron> TabAtkins, maybe at 3pm?
  434. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> dbaron: And are you going to bring up the other issues on list, or are they simple enough to discuss now?
  435. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yeah, I'm leaving these for you whenever you're ready - I hear you in the meeting that fantasai's in.
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  455. # Session Close: Thu Aug 08 00:00:01 2013

The end :)