/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-08-21 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 21 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:59] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  4. # [01:08] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  5. # [01:37] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  6. # [02:04] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  7. # [02:12] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  8. # [02:39] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  9. # [03:01] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  10. # [03:02] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  11. # [03:09] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  12. # [03:14] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  13. # [03:32] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  14. # [03:48] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  15. # [04:43] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  16. # [04:50] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  17. # [04:58] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  18. # [05:03] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  19. # [05:12] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  20. # [06:37] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  21. # [07:14] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  22. # [07:56] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  23. # [07:58] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  24. # [07:59] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  25. # [08:30] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  26. # [08:58] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  27. # [09:15] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  28. # [10:14] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  29. # [10:23] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  30. # [11:00] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  31. # [13:01] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  32. # [13:01] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  33. # [13:41] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  34. # [13:44] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  35. # [13:56] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  36. # [13:57] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  37. # [14:03] * Joins: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  38. # [14:27] * Quits: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  39. # [14:27] * Joins: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  40. # [14:44] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  41. # [14:58] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  42. # [15:19] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  43. # [15:58] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  44. # [16:02] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  45. # [16:08] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  46. # [16:12] * Quits: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  47. # [16:13] * Joins: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  48. # [16:48] * Joins: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  49. # [17:01] * Joins: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak)
  50. # [17:02] * Quits: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  51. # [17:06] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  52. # [17:09] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  53. # [17:09] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  54. # [17:10] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  55. # [17:16] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  56. # [17:24] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  57. # [17:40] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  58. # [17:40] * Quits: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  59. # [17:40] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  60. # [17:43] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  61. # [17:43] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  62. # [17:51] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  63. # [17:51] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-css-irc
  64. # [17:51] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  65. # [17:51] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  66. # [17:51] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
  67. # [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  68. # [17:52] <Zakim> +plinss
  69. # [17:54] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  70. # [17:55] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  71. # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P11
  72. # [17:55] <glenn> zakim, ??p11 is me
  73. # [17:55] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  74. # [17:56] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  75. # [17:56] <krit> Did we change passcode?
  76. # [17:56] * nvdbleek zakim, code?
  77. # [17:56] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, nvdbleek
  78. # [17:56] * Joins: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak)
  79. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P5
  80. # [17:56] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P5
  81. # [17:56] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  82. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P24
  83. # [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
  84. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P22
  85. # [17:57] <krit> hm, this pass code is not valid for me
  86. # [17:57] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  87. # [17:57] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  88. # [17:57] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
  89. # [17:57] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: florian (43%), ??P22 (4%)
  90. # [17:58] * Zakim hears ??P22's hand up
  91. # [17:58] * Zakim sees ??P22 on the speaker queue
  92. # [17:58] <leif> Zakim, ??P22 is me
  93. # [17:58] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  94. # [17:58] <florian> weird, I was supposed to me on mute from this side
  95. # [17:58] <Zakim> +c_palmer
  96. # [17:58] <jerenkrantz> Zakim, c_palmer has jerenkrantz
  97. # [17:58] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  98. # [17:58] <Zakim> +antonp
  99. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dbaron
  100. # [17:58] * nvdbleek zakim, mut me
  101. # [17:58] * Zakim I don't understand 'mut me', nvdbleek
  102. # [17:58] * nvdbleek zakim, mute me
  103. # [17:58] * Zakim nvdbleek should now be muted
  104. # [17:59] <Zakim> +fantasai
  105. # [17:59] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  106. # [17:59] <Zakim> +rhauck
  107. # [17:59] * Joins: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  108. # [17:59] * krit can not call in. 78953: this passcode is not valid
  109. # [17:59] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  110. # [17:59] <Zakim> +??P29
  111. # [17:59] * TabAtkins just keep doing it
  112. # [18:00] * dbaron krit, are you muting before dialing the passcode?
  113. # [18:00] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  114. # [18:00] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  115. # [18:00] * dbaron krit, only mute after dialing it; it tends to not pick up the first digit if there's no other sound on the line
  116. # [18:00] <leif> q-
  117. # [18:00] * Zakim sees ??P22 on the speaker queue
  118. # [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
  119. # [18:00] <leif> q- ??P22
  120. # [18:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  121. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
  122. # [18:01] * leif learning about Zakim
  123. # [18:01] * tantek is on irc only for this telcon.
  124. # [18:01] <Zakim> +hober
  125. # [18:01] * TabAtkins changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0388.html'
  126. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  127. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P3
  128. # [18:01] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
  129. # [18:01] <Zakim> +krit
  130. # [18:02] * krit dbaron hm, muting and unmuting solved it :P thanks
  131. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P3 is me
  132. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  133. # [18:02] <Zakim> -??P29
  134. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P1
  135. # [18:03] <antonp> TOPIC: extra items for agenda
  136. # [18:03] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  137. # [18:03] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  138. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Plh
  139. # [18:03] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  140. # [18:03] <antonp> TabAtkins: Counter Styles to CR: lots of issues have come up, so let's not discuss this yet.
  141. # [18:03] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  142. # [18:03] <antonp> TabAtkins: Loop back next week
  143. # [18:04] <antonp> plinss: Fonts CR transition will wait for John next week
  144. # [18:04] <antonp> TOPIC: Other spec transitions
  145. # [18:04] <dbaron> dbaron: Transitions and Animations are waiting on me to do a bunch of edits that I haven't had time to do.
  146. # [18:05] <antonp> smfr: I haven't had time to look through test cases, next step will be to put together issues based on behaviour in those tests
  147. # [18:05] <antonp> krit: I'm still working on tests
  148. # [18:05] <antonp> plinss: Will they be ready for F2F?
  149. # [18:05] <antonp> krit: unlikely.
  150. # [18:06] <antonp> dbaron: 50/50 chance of getting my edits done for f2f
  151. # [18:06] <antonp> plinss: Let's try to get this spec advancing
  152. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  153. # [18:06] <antonp> TOPIC: Selectors 4
  154. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0076.html
  155. # [18:06] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  156. # [18:06] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  157. # [18:06] <antonp> 2.a. Drag and Drop
  158. # [18:06] <krit> TabAtkins++
  159. # [18:06] <antonp> TabAtkins: Great response to the survey; let's do this kind of thing again!
  160. # [18:07] <antonp> s/2.a./a./
  161. # [18:07] * leif results: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0265.html
  162. # [18:07] <plinss> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmRB4Bq4bNRBdEw4TlU5cGNTNGQ1VHF4ZFFORTFoTkE&usp=sharing
  163. # [18:08] <antonp> [...] One of the consistent themes: People like the repeated part of the name come first.
  164. # [18:08] <antonp> florian: The functional notation is interesting if you plan to extend. Do you?
  165. # [18:09] <antonp> TabAtkins: Useful part: combine multiple keywords inside of the functional notation, gains readability
  166. # [18:09] <antonp> florian: All the suggestions [in leif's link] look reasonable, err towards third
  167. # [18:10] <antonp> Bert: I prefer to avoid parenthesis, which makes things look like a formula / maths
  168. # [18:10] <sgalineau> Bert: url() looks like math?
  169. # [18:10] <antonp> fantasai: we also have the option of doing pseudo-classes with parts reversed, which gets repeated part of the name to come first
  170. # [18:11] * Bert yes, we even called it a "functional notation."
  171. # [18:11] <antonp> TabAtkins: if you put 'drop' first, it looks like a verb rather than an element. This makes it awkward to put it first if you just dash-separate the words
  172. # [18:11] <antonp> fantasai: fair enough
  173. # [18:11] <Bert> s/Bert:/Bert,/
  174. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> s/element/noun/
  175. # [18:11] <antonp> plinss: Any strong opinions, or we go to straw poll?
  176. # [18:12] * sgalineau bike-shed: avoid;
  177. # [18:12] <Zakim> -rhauck
  178. # [18:13] <antonp> [Discussion of valid and invalid]
  179. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Need to define :drop() by itself, no arguments
  180. # [18:13] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  181. # [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glenn, florian, ??P24, dael, leif, nvdbleek (muted), c_palmer, antonp, dbaron, fantasai, TabAtkins, smfr, Bert, hober, SimonSapin, krit, ??P1, Plh,
  182. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Yeah, would mean all possible drops
  183. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... SylvaIng, MaRakow
  184. # [18:13] <Zakim> c_palmer has jerenkrantz
  185. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Do you wnat invalid + valid?
  186. # [18:13] <florian> everything acceptable, 3rd prefered
  187. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Most people won't care wrt valid/invalid, so simple case would be using active-drop and drop
  188. # [18:13] <antonp> Poll: using the numbering in the e-mail
  189. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0265.html
  190. # [18:13] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  191. # [18:13] <sgalineau> 1. :current-drop / :valid-drop / :invalid-drop
  192. # [18:14] <sgalineau> 2. :active-drop / :valid-drop / :invalid-drop
  193. # [18:14] <antonp> 3. :drop(active) / :drop(valid) / :drop(invalid)#
  194. # [18:14] <sgalineau> 3. :drop(active) / :drop(valid) / :drop(invalid)
  195. # [18:14] <antonp> [above is a list of the options]
  196. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> 3
  197. # [18:14] <sgalineau> 3
  198. # [18:14] <fantasai> 2 or 3
  199. # [18:14] <smfr> 2
  200. # [18:14] <florian> 3,(no objection to the rest)
  201. # [18:14] <plinss> 3
  202. # [18:15] <Bert> 1 or 2
  203. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> 2 or 3
  204. # [18:15] <leif> 3 or 2
  205. # [18:15] <antonp> antonp: 2
  206. # [18:15] <plh> 2
  207. # [18:15] <jerenkrantz> 3
  208. # [18:15] <hober> 2, 1
  209. # [18:15] <dbaron> 2 (or maybe just abstain)
  210. # [18:15] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  211. # [18:15] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  212. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0265.html
  213. # [18:16] <dbaron> though we should also note that (1) won the poll
  214. # [18:16] * sgalineau what part of the question implied an OR?
  215. # [18:16] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0265.html
  216. # [18:16] * sgalineau come on people. Pick one. YOU CAN DO IT.
  217. # [18:16] * plh 4? :)
  218. # [18:16] <florian> to dbaron, yes but 2 wasn't in the poll, and is more similar to 1 than to any other option actually in the poll
  219. # [18:17] * leif oops! I meant to vote for the poll winner as second choice, so my preference would be 3, with 1 as backup
  220. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> if picking one, s/2 or 3/3/
  221. # [18:17] * Rossen sylvaing you mean pick 1 or one? :)
  222. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> #1 = 2 votes, #2 = 8 votes, #3 = 8 votes
  223. # [18:17] <antonp> plinss: Is there anyone who can't live with 2 or 3?
  224. # [18:18] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  225. # [18:18] <Rossen> 3
  226. # [18:18] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
  227. # [18:18] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
  228. # [18:18] <antonp> plinss: Let's call it 3 then, and move one
  229. # [18:18] <antonp> s/one/on/
  230. # [18:19] <antonp> Subtopic: b. Comma separated attribute value selectors
  231. # [18:19] <antonp> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0331.html
  232. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> do it
  233. # [18:19] <antonp> TabAtkins: It's about adding comma-separated values
  234. # [18:19] <antonp> to the attribute selectors, as syntactic sugar
  235. # [18:19] <antonp> ... to Selectors 4
  236. # [18:19] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  237. # [18:20] <antonp> florian: Is there an issue with the comma?
  238. # [18:20] <antonp> TabAtkins: comma is not part of an ident, if you want it you can use a string
  239. # [18:20] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  240. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> [foo=a,b,c] === :matches([foo=a], [foo=b], [foo=c])
  241. # [18:20] <antonp> dbaron: I'm concerned about readability
  242. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> === [foo=a], [foo=b], [foo=c]
  243. # [18:21] <antonp> Bert: Is it an AND or an OR?
  244. # [18:21] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  245. # [18:21] <antonp> plinss: It's an OR. Couldn't possibly be an AND.
  246. # [18:21] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  247. # [18:21] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  248. # [18:21] * Quits: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  249. # [18:21] <antonp> Bert: I think it adds complexity without adding fucntionality
  250. # [18:21] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  251. # [18:21] <antonp> .. Use a preprocessor
  252. # [18:21] * sgalineau what I heard was 'if it's just usability we shouldn't do it'
  253. # [18:21] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  254. # [18:22] <antonp> TabAtkins: Just because you can use a preprocessor, it doesn't mean that we should. Puts a lot of overhead on
  255. # [18:22] <tantek> Happy to give into consensus here on bike shedding those UI pseudos.
  256. # [18:22] <antonp> Bert: eg Perl is easy to write, but hard to read. It's about readability.
  257. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/file/bb3efb2a3181/default.css#l171
  258. # [18:22] <Zakim> -??P1
  259. # [18:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  260. # [18:23] <antonp> TabAtkins: In the link is an example
  261. # [18:23] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
  262. # [18:23] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  263. # [18:23] * sgalineau notes Perl is always used as an example *because* it's such a readability outlier
  264. # [18:23] * sgalineau half of what my cat types on a keyboard is probably valid Perl
  265. # [18:23] <antonp> Bert: commas are small, and are easy to miss
  266. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> [data-link-type=property, propdesc, descriptor, value, fucntion, at-rule, selector, maybe]::before { ... }
  267. # [18:24] <antonp> Bert: I already have a problem with commas so I put clauses on separate lines
  268. # [18:24] <antonp> TabAtkins: That's good practice anyway.
  269. # [18:25] <antonp> Bert: The next thing you'll want to add is regular expressions! Bad direction
  270. # [18:25] <antonp> TabAtkins: I don't like slippery slope arguments. I'm not planning to add those.
  271. # [18:26] * sgalineau as my cat sleeps with my dog I am generally immune to slippery slope arguments.
  272. # [18:26] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  273. # [18:26] <antonp> SimonSapin: Implementation-wise, it doesn't add much complexity if we already have 'matches'
  274. # [18:26] <antonp> TabAtkins: It can sort of be the inverse of matches if you need to internally
  275. # [18:26] <antonp> plinss: How will it serialize?
  276. # [18:26] * Quits: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  277. # [18:26] <sgalineau> straw poll?
  278. # [18:27] <antonp> TabAtkins: <replies>
  279. # [18:27] <fantasai> +!
  280. # [18:27] * Zakim wonders where ! is
  281. # [18:27] <fantasai> +1
  282. # [18:27] <florian> +1
  283. # [18:27] <Bert> -1
  284. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> +1
  285. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> +1
  286. # [18:27] <smfr> +1
  287. # [18:27] <jerenkrantz> (+1 is for commas? -1 is against?)
  288. # [18:27] <sgalineau> +1
  289. # [18:27] <fantasai> (jerenkrantz, yes)
  290. # [18:28] <jerenkrantz> +1
  291. # [18:28] <dbaron> -1
  292. # [18:28] <hober> +0.75
  293. # [18:28] * sgalineau HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO USERS WHO AGREE WITH YOU
  294. # [18:28] <antonp> antonp: abstain
  295. # [18:29] <dbaron> p[class, id]
  296. # [18:29] <sgalineau> dbaron, do you mean [foo=1,bar=2]?
  297. # [18:29] <antonp> dbaron: why does comma have lower precedence than equals sign? Attribute selectors can take 'attribute' or can take 'attribute = value'.
  298. # [18:29] <dbaron> p[class=foo, id]
  299. # [18:29] <dbaron> p[class=foo, class=id]
  300. # [18:29] <antonp> dbaron: the second example I typed is conceptually the same as the third
  301. # [18:30] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  302. # [18:30] <antonp> fantasai: I don't see this as being a problem. Commas are lower precedence than = in HTML (eg class="foo,bar" - the value of class becomes "foo,bar")
  303. # [18:30] <antonp> fantasai: Having the same pattern in CSS makes sense to me
  304. # [18:30] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  305. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> "class=foo,bar"
  306. # [18:31] <antonp> plinss: I do see dbaron's point. SHouldn't we do this for all the other types of selectors not just = ?
  307. # [18:31] <antonp> TabAtkins: YEah, it's not just for =
  308. # [18:31] <antonp> plinss: p[class, id] is invalid?
  309. # [18:31] <antonp> TabAtkins: yes
  310. # [18:32] * antonp likes this even less now, in the light of dbaron's comment
  311. # [18:32] * smfr likes this less now too
  312. # [18:32] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  313. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> I see the precedence argument as well
  314. # [18:32] <antonp> TabAtkins: We could take this back and think about it some more
  315. # [18:33] <sgalineau> in favor of thinking about it more
  316. # [18:33] <antonp> TabAtkins: Let's do that.
  317. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> s/it/syntax/
  318. # [18:33] <antonp> plinss: OK, so not accepted for now, but you can raise it again later if you want.
  319. # [18:33] <antonp> fantasai: Nothing else to discuss today, will bring more stuff later.
  320. # [18:34] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0224.html
  321. # [18:34] <antonp> TOPIC: Scroll Snapping
  322. # [18:34] <dbaron> I think I gave a list of things in selectors4 I'm still iffy on at the end (?) of last week's telecon.
  323. # [18:34] <antonp> plinss: interesting comment from roc
  324. # [18:34] <antonp> plinss: anyone interested?
  325. # [18:34] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'm in favour and could be an editor on this
  326. # [18:34] <antonp> smfr: I like it and would like to see it advanced
  327. # [18:34] <antonp> Rossen: We're also interested I think
  328. # [18:35] <antonp> plinss: OK, hearing strong support
  329. # [18:35] <antonp> TabAtkins: Separate spec I'd prefer
  330. # [18:35] <antonp> fantasai: It might fit in to UI
  331. # [18:35] <antonp> .. but let's start it as a separate spec
  332. # [18:35] <dbaron> Rossen^: have Matt Rakow with me, who's a member of the WG and our lead (?) on this
  333. # [18:35] <antonp> TabAtkins: I think it's likely that this spec could grow
  334. # [18:36] <antonp> plinss: sticky positioning?
  335. # [18:36] <antonp> fantasai: No, that's positioning, not scrolling
  336. # [18:36] <antonp> Bert: It's related to overflow isn't it?
  337. # [18:36] <antonp> TabAtkins: This is about scrolling behaviour, not about all the other stuff surrounding overflow, so it makes sense to me to keep it separate
  338. # [18:37] <antonp> Bert: It doesn't relate to marquee but all other modes are affected
  339. # [18:37] <antonp> TabAtkins: Paged overflow isn't affected
  340. # [18:37] <antonp> Bert: sure it is, in paged media
  341. # [18:37] <antonp> TabAtkins: No, I don't think so
  342. # [18:37] * smfr florian sounds like he's using a tin can
  343. # [18:37] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  344. # [18:37] * sgalineau smfr, sounds like?
  345. # [18:38] <antonp> plinss: OK, let's start as a separate doc and fold it in to something else later
  346. # [18:38] <antonp> RESOLVED: accept work on these properties
  347. # [18:38] <antonp> TOPIC: CSS Color 4
  348. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> https://rawgithub.com/tabatkins/specs/master/css-color/Overview.html
  349. # [18:38] <antonp> TabAtkins: It's "which of these proposed things do we want to pursue"
  350. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-color/Overview.html#changes-from-3
  351. # [18:39] <antonp> Adding 4- and 8-digit hex colours has been a long-standing author request
  352. # [18:39] <Bert> s/in paged media/in interactive paged media/
  353. # [18:40] <antonp> #1 is something we should fix because it's a common authoring error
  354. # [18:40] <antonp> Problem when doing something in JavaScript, have to round, floor etc
  355. # [18:40] <antonp> #4 is also for author convenience
  356. # [18:40] <antonp> #2 and #3 are less so, but are nice
  357. # [18:41] <antonp> This spec pulls in dbaron's color correction proposal
  358. # [18:41] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'm fine with taking over editing that
  359. # [18:41] <antonp> ... There are also some other nice things
  360. # [18:41] * florian I've tried 3 different headsets over skype and 2 different ones and without a headset on the phone using SIP, and no matter what I do, I always have terrible voice sound. it is getting annoying...
  361. # [18:41] <antonp> [plinss and TabAtkins discuss #1]
  362. # [18:42] <dbaron> florian, it sounded maybe like your software switching compression algorithms dynamically
  363. # [18:42] * sgalineau florian, it's probably you...:)
  364. # [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: Concern about interpreting number as 0-1
  365. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No, use % for that. Number would be 0-255
  366. # [18:43] <antonp> dbaron: I'm not crazy about adding syntactic sugar in general, because it adds more compatibility hurdles
  367. # [18:43] <sgalineau> +1 to dbaron. your sound quality varies; which tends to happen given enough latency
  368. # [18:43] <antonp> dbaron: It might be worth doing for color stuff, given the demand, but I'm not sure it's high priority
  369. # [18:43] <antonp> TabAtkins: surde
  370. # [18:43] <antonp> s/surde/sure/
  371. # [18:43] <sgalineau> may not be high priority, but is it expensive?
  372. # [18:44] <antonp> glenn: [...]
  373. # [18:44] <smfr> i like them
  374. # [18:44] <glenn> glenn: TTML specifies use of a #rrggbbaa syntax since 2010
  375. # [18:44] <antonp> TabAtkins: The compat issue applies reasonably to #2 and #3.
  376. # [18:44] <antonp> .. but #1 and #4 are fixing stuff
  377. # [18:45] <antonp> plinss: How many people use HWB notation?
  378. # [18:45] <krit> some SVG authoring tools use #rrggbbaa internally as well like inkscape
  379. # [18:45] <antonp> TabAtkins: Used in SASS, tint and shade is used quite a lot
  380. # [18:45] <antonp> SimonSapin: what is HWB?
  381. # [18:45] <antonp> TabAtkins: Hue, Whiteness, Blackness. Transform easily from eg RGB
  382. # [18:46] <antonp> .. It's just an alternative that's intuitive
  383. # [18:46] <antonp> plinss: opinions?
  384. # [18:46] <antonp> plinss: ok, let's move forward
  385. # [18:46] <antonp> TabAtkins: I'm fine with pushing features out if we don't like them yet
  386. # [18:47] <antonp> TOPIC: Outline Properties (left over from f2f)
  387. # [18:47] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  388. # [18:47] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0668.html
  389. # [18:47] <antonp> dbaron: I sent a message about a bunch of cases in which there's no interop on outlines, and I'd like to hear what people think we should be doing
  390. # [18:48] <antonp> .. I guess there are 2 common differences: I think the spec is clear that an inline broken across multiple lines then you want the outline to surround the whole thing and not around the individual lines
  391. # [18:49] <antonp> .. Other thing was drawing the outline around the overflow, useful when eg image inside link. Gecko is probably only browser which does this)
  392. # [18:49] <antonp> smfr: webkit does that if outline thing is an inline, but doesn't if it's a block, IIRC
  393. # [18:49] <antonp> florian: interop problem if you apply a rotation, IIRC
  394. # [18:50] <antonp> TabAtkins: smfr, no we don't do anything special in the inline case
  395. # [18:50] <antonp> dbaron: One question that's fundamental is that "we should optimize for focus outlines"
  396. # [18:51] <antonp> .. But authors like to use outlines for other things, like "border which doesn't affect layout". Hence they demand better interop... but we should ask how much we care about that and similar use cases.
  397. # [18:51] <antonp> dbaron: With Gecko, it's becoming harder to maintain in the presence of 3d transforms
  398. # [18:52] <antonp> .. I've been inclined to just drop the beaviour of overflow
  399. # [18:52] <Zakim> -c_palmer
  400. # [18:52] * Quits: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  401. # [18:52] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  402. # [18:52] <antonp> ... despite the entire demand coming from authors using it for non-focus use cases
  403. # [18:52] <antonp> Rossen: How are authors using this reliably if you guys are the only ones doing this
  404. # [18:52] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  405. # [18:52] <antonp> dbaron: They was interop and are complainig to us
  406. # [18:53] <antonp> krit: [...]
  407. # [18:53] <antonp> plinss: OK, two issues: Does the outline contain overflow content? What's it's behaviour on wrapped inline elements?
  408. # [18:53] <antonp> dbaron: The overflow one is the main one I think
  409. # [18:53] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  410. # [18:53] <antonp> plinss: on the overflow topic, what do people think?
  411. # [18:54] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  412. # [18:54] <krit> s/[…]/There is strange behavior on outline in WebKit,Blink on things that create a stacking context from time to time/
  413. # [18:54] <antonp> dbaron: I have mixed feelings about supporting this case
  414. # [18:54] <antonp> plinss: maybe we should introduce a property to control this behaviour?
  415. # [18:54] <antonp> dbaron: Seems like overkill to me...
  416. # [18:55] <antonp> krit: Regarding outline on svg, most browsers don't even support it. So the spec is a bit week
  417. # [18:55] <antonp> smfr: In webkit we use different behaviour for focus ring(?) than with outlines
  418. # [18:55] <antonp> .. if outline style is auto, we fall into focus ring behaviour which does go around overflow content
  419. # [18:56] <antonp> plinss: suggestions for path forward on these issues? We have test cases, but do we need more discussion etc?
  420. # [18:56] <antonp> dbaron: I may want to look into webkit behaviour some more, given what smfr said
  421. # [18:56] <Zakim> -hober
  422. # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
  423. # [18:57] <antonp> plinss: bye everyone
  424. # [18:57] <Zakim> -leif
  425. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Plh
  426. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  427. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
  428. # [18:57] <Zakim> -glenn
  429. # [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
  430. # [18:57] <Zakim> -florian
  431. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  432. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
  433. # [18:57] * Parts: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  434. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
  435. # [18:57] <Zakim> -antonp
  436. # [18:57] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  437. # [18:57] <Zakim> -plinss
  438. # [18:57] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  439. # [18:57] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  440. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  441. # [18:57] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  442. # [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
  443. # [18:57] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
  444. # [18:57] <Zakim> -??P24
  445. # [18:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  446. # [18:57] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glenn, florian, dael, nvdbleek, leif, jerenkrantz, antonp, dbaron, fantasai, TabAtkins, rhauck, smfr, Bert, hober, krit, SimonSapin, Plh, SylvaIng, MaRakow,
  447. # [18:57] <Zakim> ... Rossen
  448. # [19:00] <florian> dbaron: the outline on this TC behaves differently between gecko/webkit vs presto
  449. # [19:00] <florian> http://files.florian.rivoal.net/outline.html
  450. # [19:00] <florian> I don't have IE here to test what it does
  451. # [19:01] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  452. # [19:03] <Bert> I like Opera's outline best.
  453. # [19:05] <florian> I think the problem with firefox's and webkit's approach is when you start to have 3d transforms. I don't think transforming the outline in 3d is a good idea.
  454. # [19:05] <florian> it works ok when people use it as a second border, but not when it is supposed to related to focusing
  455. # [19:06] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  456. # [19:07] <Bert> Yes, imagine tabbing through a document, e.g., with the remote of your TV. When the outline changes too much from one element to another, you'll have a hard time finding where it went.
  457. # [19:10] <florian> Let's move this conversation to the mailing list, I have to go
  458. # [19:13] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  459. # [19:17] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  460. # [19:22] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  461. # [19:47] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  462. # [19:48] * Quits: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  463. # [19:49] * Joins: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  464. # [20:05] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  465. # [20:06] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  466. # [20:18] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  467. # [20:18] * Quits: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  468. # [20:21] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  469. # [20:22] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  470. # [20:26] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  471. # [20:26] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  472. # [20:27] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  473. # [20:28] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  474. # [20:28] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  475. # [20:28] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  476. # [20:29] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  477. # [20:33] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  478. # [20:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  479. # [20:38] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  480. # [20:40] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  481. # [20:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  482. # [21:00] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  483. # [21:19] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  484. # [21:28] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  485. # [22:13] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  486. # [22:14] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  487. # [22:30] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  488. # [22:30] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
  489. # [22:30] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  490. # [22:48] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  491. # [23:24] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  492. # [23:27] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
  493. # [23:55] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  494. # [23:59] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  495. # Session Close: Thu Aug 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)