/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-08-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 22 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  9. # [00:42] <plinss> TabAtkins: ping
  10. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> pong
  11. # [00:42] <plinss> hey, did you get a chance to look at the email I sent about the spec api?
  12. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Hm, I thought I responded to that earlier today.
  13. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Yes, I think your proposed JSON is fine.
  14. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> I think the type upgrading is weird, though.
  15. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> And I don't understand what'll happen if a TR draft specifies a specific value and an ED draft specifies a different one.
  16. # [00:43] <plinss> yeah, it's important for sections, for other types, it's just for when the draft has better markup than the /tr version
  17. # [00:44] <plinss> if they both have explicit types, I think I have to keep the /tr one
  18. # [00:44] <plinss> but for types other than sections, I could be swayed
  19. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> I'm just wondering why the type has to be kept unified between the two.
  20. # [00:45] <plinss> well, it's about sections really.
  21. # [00:46] <plinss> there are cases where a /tr spec has a regular anchor, and that turns into a section heading in the draft (or vice versa)
  22. # [00:46] <plinss> so if a test links to that anchor, it should be bound to the proper section
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  24. # [00:46] <plinss> but I can give it some more thought to see if I can separate the two...
  25. # [00:47] <plinss> the bottom line is that I don't want the shepherd UI to have a list of /tr sections and a list of draft sections, I want one unified section list
  26. # [00:48] <plinss> and when things get juggled between /tr and draft, I just have to make best effort to merge the data
  27. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Hah, was just asking about that.
  28. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Because, for example, we just shifted a lot around in the Grid and Cascade specs.
  29. # [00:49] <plinss> right
  30. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> It seems like, since you already have to merge the data (presumably by just having both sections in the list, even though some only exist in certain versions of the spec), that it isn't much more difficult to track draft+section instead of just section in the data. It wouldn't affect the display.
  31. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Though I think you currently track section with a nesting relationship, so that is rather different. :/
  32. # [00:54] <plinss> right, every anchor exists in the context of a parent
  33. # [00:55] <plinss> so I can't really change the structure between draft and /tr
  34. # [00:55] <plinss> except at the leaf nodes
  35. # [00:56] <plinss> I'm reviewing code now, I may be able to track the type separately, just maybe always merge the types into sections when I need to…
  36. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> I think trying to track document structure in a merged way between two documents which may have only a tenuous structural connection is a bad idea in the first place, but whatever. ^_^
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  38. # [00:58] <plinss> agreed, the whole /tr vs draft thing wasn't part of the original design, so I would have done it a bit differently if it was
  39. # [01:00] <plinss> the bottom line is, if a test links to #foo, and that anchor is in section 3.2 in /tr, but it's in section 4.6 in the draft, should it show up in searches for tests in section 3.2, 4.6, or both?
  40. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Both? Perhaps with some UI indication that it's only that section in the draft/tr, if they're different.
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  42. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> (Differing nesting needs are why I've generally decided that flat data structures are the most useful, by the way.)
  43. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Wait, can you search shepherd by section number?
  44. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> That seems weird/bad, since section numbers aren't stable in the first place.
  45. # [01:05] <fantasai> plinss: Was drag'n'drop resolved? No resolved line in the minutes afaict
  46. # [01:05] <plinss> yes, you always could
  47. # [01:05] <plinss> http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/search/spec/css-flexbox-1/section/4.5/
  48. # [01:06] <plinss> fantasai, yes it was resolved, fell free to edit the minute if it didn't get captured
  49. # [01:06] <fantasai> ok
  50. # [01:08] <fantasai> plinss: I'm also missing a resolution for the CSS4 color topic
  51. # [01:09] <fantasai> plinss: Did we resolve on anything?
  52. # [01:09] * fantasai thinks she's not letting antonp scribe anymore
  53. # [01:10] <plinss> we did decide to move forward with the new concepts, minuted as "ok, let's move forward"
  54. # [01:10] <fantasai> plinss: Does that mean Tab can open an ED on it?
  55. # [01:10] <plinss> (hopefully in a few weeks dael will take over :-) , right tab? )
  56. # [01:10] <plinss> yes
  57. # [01:10] <fantasai> OK, I'm going to edit that in
  58. # [01:10] <plinss> ok
  59. # [01:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Please consider yourself as having an action item to shift the css-color-4 draft to dev.w3.org and set up redirects as appropriate :)
  60. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> yup yup
  61. # [01:12] <plinss> TabAtkins: ok, looking at the code it looks like the dependencies aren't as bad as I thought they were
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  64. # [01:12] <plinss> what I think I'm going to do is track all anchors separately in the DB, and just do the structural merge at the ui level when I need to
  65. # [01:13] <plinss> so at the api I can just give you two separate structures, one for /tr, one for the draft
  66. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Okay. Just let me know how the structure of the anchors data will change, and I can update appropriately.
  67. # [01:13] <plinss> ok
  68. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> It's quite easy since it's all translated into something completely different anyway, so all I have to change is the translation code in the update method.
  69. # [01:14] <plinss> right
  70. # [01:14] <plinss> the question is do I need to expose both versions in the api for backward compat or do we just sync our releases?
  71. # [01:15] <plinss> and anyone who has their own in stall of bikeshed has to update before syncing spec data...
  72. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> I can just sync.
  73. # [01:15] <plinss> ok
  74. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it'll be an error if you have local bikeshed and don't pull from the repo before updating.
  75. # [01:15] <plinss> right
  76. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> But there are only a few of them anyway. (Basically just SimonSapin I think. ^_^)
  77. # [01:16] <plinss> ok, I don't mind breaking him :-)
  78. # [01:16] <SimonSapin> hehe
  79. # [01:16] <plinss> I should probably put a version indicator in the api so your code can give a meaningful error if it get's a newer version
  80. # [01:16] <SimonSapin> Bikeshed breaks basically every time I use it, and updating fixes it
  81. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Sure!
  82. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hahaha
  83. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> I keep finding bugs as I convert new specs over, so we're asymptotically approaching correctness.
  84. # [01:17] <plinss> fwiw, I have specs auto-generating on drafts.csswg.org now, I sent the script to mike for dev.w3.org
  85. # [01:17] <SimonSapin> asymptotically :)
  86. # [01:17] <plinss> we'll see if he can get it working there too
  87. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> plinss: so can we just remove Overview.html files for
  88. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> from the repository?
  89. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> plinss: Ooh, is that "only push Overview.src.html" thing?
  90. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> and .hgignore them?
  91. # [01:18] <plinss> that's the idea, yeah, don't do it just yet though
  92. # [01:19] * dbaron hates falling into this horrible rapid-fire-back-and-forth-on-mailing-list pattern
  93. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Would you prefer back-and-forth in IRC?
  94. # [01:21] <dbaron> TabAtkins, yes
  95. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Okay, but I've got an email almost finished already. ^_^
  96. # [01:22] <dbaron> TabAtkins, then I guess just send it
  97. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Done.
  98. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Btw, commited the :drop() stuff already.
  99. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Whoops, didn't specify what happens when you don't give any keywords. The grammar technically excludes that case anyway, but that's not what I intended.
  100. # [01:28] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what do you want it to do?
  101. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Just defined it - the keywords are filters, so lacking any is unfiltered - matches all dropzones.
  102. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Same as the non-functional :drop.
  103. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> That is, :drop and :drop() are identical.
  104. # [01:29] <SimonSapin> that seems redundant, but meh
  105. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Eh, we like avoiding parens when possible, and we also like handling obvious cases, of which "none of the above" is always one.
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  108. # [01:42] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "actively hides the important parts of the cascade", wait, do you mean the parts that involve !important?
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  110. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I mean that understanding the cascade requires putting the ordering up front and center. .style hides the ordering.
  111. # [01:42] <SimonSapin> "the cascade is unimportant" this is gold
  112. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Dude, don't be an ass, at least not while speaking directly to me.
  113. # [01:43] <SimonSapin> sorry, just having what I thought was harmless fun, don’t mind me
  114. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> If you have a structure that doesn't expose any ordering, but it's actually reflecting a hidden ordered structure underneath, and the *only way to know that* is to trip over the ordering issue when you hit an uncommon corner case, you're doing something wrong.
  115. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Arguably, the thing we're doing wrong is the CSSStyleDeclaration interface itself, but we can't help that now.
  116. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> So instead we should probably cater for the "looks unordered" interpretation.
  117. # [01:45] <SimonSapin> hey, I’m just poking fun at the overloading of "importance" as a cascading concept vs. an English word
  118. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> (Like I said on the thread, a better design would probably have been a mutable ordered list of declarations, and a readonly unordered dict of declarations.)
  119. # [01:46] <SimonSapin> I agree that the way CSSStyleDeclaration works is wrong on many levels
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  252. # [18:29] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
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  266. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> plinss: I presume that keys marked with * in your grammar are optional and might not be present in the data?
  267. # [22:14] <plinss> yep
  268. # [22:22] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  279. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You're gone, you know that, right?
  280. # [23:06] <fantasai> just figured it out...
  281. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Hah, kk
  282. # [23:06] <fantasai> trying to dial back in
  283. # [23:23] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  284. # [23:27] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai explain msft's back-compat problem with changing initial value of 'grid-auto-flow'
  285. # [23:27] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  286. # [23:27] * RRSAgent records action 1
  287. # [23:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-573 - Explain msft's back-compat problem with changing initial value of 'grid-auto-flow' [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-08-29].
  288. # [23:31] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  292. # Session Close: Fri Aug 23 00:00:00 2013

The end :)