/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-08-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  7. # [00:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: for the auto-placement algo... you want 'order'-modified document order
  8. # [00:13] <fantasai> not source order
  9. # [00:18] * fantasai goes to fix this
  10. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Huh, we lost, like, *everyone* in the room.
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  13. # [00:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ?
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  15. # [01:20] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
  16. # [01:20] <jdaggett> morning!
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  24. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Huh. According to irccloud, you're not in the room.
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  40. # [08:37] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0388.html'
  41. # [08:37] * Set by TabAtkins on Wed Aug 21 18:05:34
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  115. # [17:48] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  116. # [17:48] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
  117. # [17:48] * plinss changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0570.html'
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  121. # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  122. # [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
  123. # [17:54] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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  125. # [17:54] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
  126. # [17:54] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  127. # [17:54] <Zakim> +Vlad
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  131. # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P11
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  133. # [17:55] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
  134. # [17:55] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  135. # [17:55] <glenn> zakim, ??p20 is me
  136. # [17:55] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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  139. # [17:56] <shezbaig_wk> zakim, c_palmer is me
  140. # [17:56] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
  141. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P2
  142. # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit
  143. # [17:57] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P2
  144. # [17:57] <Zakim> +leif; got it
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  148. # [17:58] <jerenkrantz> Zakim, shezbaig_wk.a has me
  149. # [17:58] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  150. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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  154. # [17:58] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  159. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P34
  160. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaaa
  161. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> zakim, aaaa is me
  162. # [18:02] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  163. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, what’s the next step for Syntax?
  164. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Me to actually get it published by prepping and sending it todya.
  165. # [18:03] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  166. # [18:03] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  167. # [18:03] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Fonts
  168. # [18:04] <fantasai> waiting for Tab to get back
  169. # [18:04] <fantasai> Topic: Grid Layout
  170. # [18:04] <fantasai> plinss: Request for updated WD?
  171. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober
  172. # [18:04] * TabAtkins is curious why he's required for Fonts.
  173. # [18:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0554.html
  174. # [18:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0353.html
  175. # [18:05] <jdaggett> TabAtkins: font-size-adjust!
  176. # [18:05] <leif> fantasai: Does anyone need me to go over the changes?
  177. # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Is there anyone here that needs me to go through the changes to Grid Layout that we want to publish?
  178. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: Meh, I'm fine with your conclusions in the thread. I think auto is useful, but whatever.
  179. # [18:05] <fantasai> [silence]
  180. # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: In that case, is everyone ok with us publishing an updated WD?
  181. # [18:06] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of Grid Layout
  182. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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  184. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
  185. # [18:07] <fantasai> plinss: Any other things to go over?
  186. # [18:07] <fantasai> fantasai: Good to get WG resolutions on some changes
  187. # [18:07] <fantasai> fantasai: First is change to named lines syntax from <string>+ to (<ident>*)
  188. # [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: 2 advantages -- using idents more consistent with CSS syntax conventions
  189. # [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Also parens provide visual grouping, easier to see how many lines and how names are grouped
  190. # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  191. # [18:08] <fantasai> Rossen: Would be good to get Steve Zilles' opinion
  192. # [18:08] <fantasai> SteveZ: Haven't reviewed new syntax yet
  193. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai, should that be (<ident>+)+
  194. # [18:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: main advantage of parens is disambiguation?
  195. # [18:09] <fantasai> fantasai: Also visual grouping, b/c can have multiple names to single line
  196. # [18:10] <fantasai> ...
  197. # [18:10] <fantasai> SteveZ: Parens certainly avoid conflict situations that you could get into
  198. # [18:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Using idents introduces slightly less bad conflict in grid-placement properties, but that's not as much of a problem
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  200. # [18:11] <fantasai> SteveZ: sounds okay, if problem will reraise it
  201. # [18:11] <fantasai> plinss: Any objections?
  202. # [18:11] * Quits: arron (~arronei@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPhone")
  203. # [18:11] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Switch named lines syntax to (<ident>+)
  204. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  205. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: Added 'grid' shorthand, using syntax from Bert's Template module, with slight modification to allow for named lines and for leaving out the template names
  206. # [18:12] <fantasai> plinss asks for comments
  207. # [18:12] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept 'grid' shorthand
  208. # [18:12] * Zakim sees RESOLVED:, Accept, 'grid', short on the speaker queue
  209. # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Fonts
  210. # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/doc-20130711-LCWD.html
  211. # [18:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: LC period finished last Thursday
  212. # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0239.html
  213. # [18:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: first is 'auto' value for 'font-size-adjust'
  214. # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-size-adjust-auto-value
  215. # [18:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: As currently specced, takes aspect value of UA's default font
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  217. # [18:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: There was some confusion as to what the spec meant; people thought it meant you take the first font in the font-family list
  218. # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: Regardless, there's still a certain amount of variation across platforms and UAs and whether they allows users to set the default font, which creates more variation
  219. # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: The value was useful because it reflected what user would see on pages without any font settings
  220. # [18:15] <Zakim> -hober
  221. # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: but can see the point that there's a lot of variability in different environments, etc...
  222. # [18:15] <fantasai> Vlad: Main concern that I have about unpredictability of results
  223. # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: If you don't specify anything, and use default font is used, no adjustment needed
  224. # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: If you do specify fonts, and mistakenly assume that 'auto' would get adjustment to aspect ratio of the fonts you specified... that's not going to happen
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  226. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  227. # [18:16] <Zakim> -??P34
  228. # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: So main objection is unpredictable results
  229. # [18:16] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  230. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  231. # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: goal is maintaining readability, this might actually act counter to that goal
  232. # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Would like more deterministic properties
  233. # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Specify a number, you get what you asked for
  234. # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Otherwise, no adjustment.
  235. # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Straightforward strategy
  236. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: There were several proposals from other people on the list
  237. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: e.g. Jonathan Kew had a proposal
  238. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: Those to me have other questions
  239. # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: And since we're at last stage of CSS3 Fonts, I would propose that we just drop 'auto' from CSS3 Fonts
  240. # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: And move it out into Level 4
  241. # [18:18] * Joins: arron (~arronei@public.cloak)
  242. # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: Any ojbections?
  243. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds reasonable to me
  244. # [18:18] * Quits: arron (~arronei@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPhone")
  245. # [18:18] <fantasai> SteveZ: Existing implementations?
  246. # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: Nobody implements 'auto' value, so no impact
  247. # [18:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop 'auto' value of font-size-adjust
  248. # [18:19] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  249. # [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: Other issue that was brought up was relationship of font-size-adjust and line height
  250. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Line height is typically specified relative to the font size
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  252. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Vlad was concerned that there was nothing in the spec that talked about relationship of font-size-adjust and line-height
  253. # [18:20] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-size-adjust-auto-value
  254. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: 'em' unit is not affected by font-size-adjust
  255. # [18:20] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  256. # [18:21] <fantasai> [reads note]
  257. # [18:21] * tantek is on IRC only today
  258. # [18:21] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  259. # [18:21] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  260. # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: Does that cover what you're worried about, Vlad?
  261. # [18:21] <tantek> Zakim, tantek is on IRC only today.
  262. # [18:21] <Zakim> I don't understand 'tantek is on IRC only today', tantek
  263. # [18:21] <fantasai> Vlad: covers part of it
  264. # [18:21] <fantasai> Vlad: But not clear to implementers what's affected
  265. # [18:22] <fantasai> Vlad: Should be clear that line-height is always calculated wrt base font-size
  266. # [18:22] <fantasai> Vlad: Not affected by font-size-adjust
  267. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: Think we're covered by css3-values
  268. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Not entirely. line-height takes lengths, but also takes numbers
  269. # [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: You noted in the note that authors set line-height in em units, but that's really bad, should set in number units
  270. # [18:23] <fantasai> SteveZ: Question... specified, computed, used, which?
  271. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: We decided on computed font-size for 'em', so probably line-height should be the same
  272. # [18:24] <fantasai> SteveZ: So font-size-adjust affects used font-size, but not computed font-size.
  273. # [18:24] <fantasai> SteveZ: Would be useful to say that.
  274. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: So we need to add a normative statement to paragraph above
  275. # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: Say that font-size-adjust affects the used font-size (used to render text), not the computed font-size
  276. # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: That also addresses my concerns about describing precisely how this works.
  277. # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: Illustrated, but not specified.
  278. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Other error in that note -- font-relative units, only 'em' is unaffected, 'ex', and 'ch' are affected
  279. # [18:26] <fantasai> plinss: So ex/ch are based on on used, not computed font-size
  280. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes. We should clarify that in CSS3 Fonts
  281. # [18:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  282. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Specified already in CSS3 Values
  283. # [18:27] <fantasai> SimonSapin: 'used' should probably link to CSS3 Cascade definition
  284. # [18:27] * dbaron got to the airport a tad later than expected, and thus wasn't through security by the start of the teleconference; apologies for being late
  285. # [18:28] <fantasai> Missing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0170.html from DoC
  286. # [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: Used to be with superscripts/subscripts
  287. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Difference is that it doesn't have fallback behavior
  288. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Since used for numerics, put it with font-variant-numeric
  289. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: I think that logic makes sense, but,
  290. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: as you pointed out superscripts and ordinals are often confused with each other, so it would be helpful to authors to learn to distinguish them if they are in the same property
  291. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: also, it's the only value of font-variant-numeric that doesn't actually affect digits
  292. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: Are you asking for the value to be moved?
  293. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes
  294. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: I disagree for reasons above
  295. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: There are arguments on both sides here:
  296. # [18:32] <fantasai> [summarizes arguments]
  297. # [18:32] <fantasai> * doesn't have fallback behavior, so want to avoid font-variant-position
  298. # [18:32] <fantasai> * related to numbers, so in font-variant-numeric
  299. # [18:33] <fantasai> * doesn't affect numerals/digits, so weird to put in font-variant-numeric
  300. # [18:33] <fantasai> * affects visual position, so makes sense in font-variant-position, despite lack of fallback
  301. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: [...]
  302. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: Subtle distinctions typically get lost on ordinary people
  303. # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: Behavior is much more like numerical forms [in that doesn't have fallback]
  304. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: [...]
  305. # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: font-size-adjust only affects used, not computed, value of font-size -- clarify this in CSS3 Fonts
  306. # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Fix errors in note wrt using ems vs. numbers for line-height, affect of font-size-adjust on ex/ch
  307. # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: And please add some examples of ordinals, esp since confusion of what they are and how used
  308. # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: We'll come back to that next week, hopefully CR transition then
  309. # [18:37] <fantasai> Vlad: Thanks for all the consideration you gave to my comments
  310. # [18:37] <Zakim> -Vlad
  311. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Thanks for reviewing the spec! We really appreciate that.
  312. # [18:37] <fantasai> Topic: Counter Styles
  313. # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: LC period expired
  314. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Haven't addressed all comments
  315. # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Time frame?
  316. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Hopefully next week?
  317. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: Same is true for Cascade; haven't pulled together DoC yet
  318. # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Selectors 4?
  319. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: Dont' have issues prepared
  320. # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Open Renaming Issues
  321. # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Image Values 3
  322. # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: object-fit marked as at-risk. Blink has an implementation, have a patch for WebKit
  323. # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: Have an implementation in old Opera code
  324. # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: Would like object-fit to be marked as not at-risk
  325. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: sounds reasonable to me
  326. # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't think we need to; at-risk means we *can* drop it if we want to, doesn't mean we have to
  327. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Right
  328. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: also, we can't count Blink/WebKit as two implementations
  329. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: but Opera counts
  330. # [18:40] * tantek prefers leaving it at risk unless you've got a test case that passes two shipping implementations.
  331. # [18:41] <tantek> and what plinss said
  332. # [18:41] <fantasai> leif: Opera's implementation isn't entirely conformant
  333. # [18:41] <fantasai> hober: There's a PR angle to this; if marked as at-risk, authors think it can't be relied on
  334. # [18:42] <dbaron> I'd also prefer leaving it at risk. Unprefixed is great; it's in CR.
  335. # [18:42] <tantek> that's true
  336. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: at-risk exists mainly for process reasons, given we have implementations, so I don't see a problem with taking it out of at-risk
  337. # [18:42] <tantek> disagree about "mainly for process reasons"
  338. # [18:43] <tantek> is there a URL to a test case that works in 2+ browsers (with different engines) ?
  339. # [18:43] <tantek> if so, then yes, remove from at-risk
  340. # [18:43] <tantek> if not, then leave it at risk
  341. # [18:43] <fantasai> plinss: Do we have tests?
  342. # [18:43] <tantek> and if so, provide URL to said test case(s) to the minutes please
  343. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No
  344. # [18:43] <tantek> then leave it at-risk :P
  345. # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no change (for now)
  346. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> tantek: Um, that criteria would mean marking the entire spec at-risk.
  347. # [18:44] <tantek> let's stick with at least semi-objective criteria rather than debating things like that politically in a telcon :P
  348. # [18:44] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  349. # [18:45] * dbaron is for wrapping up
  350. # [18:45] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  351. # [18:45] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  352. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> At-risk is entirely for marking things that have a shaky future, such that we think it's a good idea but still *might* want to go back and kill/punt it. Marking it means that, process-wise, we can do so (and republish a CR) without it being a "substantive change" that'll require an LC round.
  353. # [18:45] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/naming
  354. # [18:46] <tantek> at-risk is for better communicating about the status of a feature to authors
  355. # [18:46] <tantek> and yes - helps with reducing CR-LC-CR roundtrips
  356. # [18:46] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  357. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: If anyone has good ideas, we're looking for good ideas
  358. # [18:46] <Zakim> -smfr
  359. # [18:46] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
  360. # [18:46] <Zakim> -rhauck
  361. # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  362. # [18:46] <Zakim> -krit
  363. # [18:46] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  364. # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  365. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Otherwise, close the call
  366. # [18:46] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  367. # [18:46] <Zakim> -dael
  368. # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  369. # [18:46] <Zakim> -plinss
  370. # [18:46] <Zakim> -leif
  371. # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
  372. # [18:46] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  373. # [18:46] <Zakim> -glenn
  374. # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  375. # [18:46] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
  376. # [18:46] <Zakim> -fantasai
  377. # [18:46] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  378. # [18:46] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, jdaggett, Vlad, rhauck, SimonSapin, glenn, shezbaig_wk, krit, leif, smfr, jerenkrantz, SteveZ, fantasai, dael, +1.281.305.aaaa, TabAtkins, hober, [Adobe],
  379. # [18:46] <Zakim> ... Rossen_, David_Baron
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  395. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> tantek: Communicating status to authors is useful, but it's not what the At-Risk designation is used for.
  396. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> tantek: And in particular, your attempt to say that we should tie it to the semi-objective criteria of "has tests in an official test suite" means that most features in most of our newer specs should all be marked at-risk.
  397. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Which they aren't, and we won't do. So trying to apply that criterion to this feature specifically is inconsistent.
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  400. # [19:09] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  401. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> (Not to mention, I don't think "has tests in an official test-suite" maps well to the plain-English phrase "at-risk" anyway. If you think we should have such an annotation, I agree, but it would be called "is tested" or something.)
  402. # [19:25] <tantek> who ever said "official test-suite"?
  403. # [19:25] <tantek> I asked for a test case with a URL
  404. # [19:25] <tantek> that doesn't seem that much to ask for
  405. # [19:26] <tantek> (especially for a feature that presumably someone thinks is solid enough to not be "at-risk")
  406. # [19:26] <tantek> (heck, even a test in the spec itself would be great)
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  409. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> tantek: We certainly have test cases in browser test suites. Whether they have a url depends on how much you accept relying on github mirrors.
  410. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> But, again, regardless of that, your criteria cant' be applied consistently without marking a lot more stuff across lots of specs as "at-risk".
  411. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Which is silly.
  412. # [19:59] <tantek> what's silly is claiming stuff isn't at risk when one cannot even produce a single public URL test case for it
  413. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> I'm claiming you're not consistent in applying the criterion. I'm making no claims for or against the criterion itself at the moment.
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  418. # [20:21] <tantek> TabAtkins - likely true. trying to be better about that. writing down the proposed spec iteration steps was a step in that direction. also I like including little mini-tests in specs themselves. :)
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  424. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> fantasai, yt?
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  436. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: bikeshed now lets you specify "Value" multiple times, and gloms them together.
  437. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And better handles badly-formatted propdefs, or propdefs with missing data, or with lines in a different order than our canonical ordering.
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  441. # [23:53] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: it took me a minute to figure out that https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/a48538e5f966 was about the processor
  442. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> yeah, trying to find something shorter than "preprocessor fix", because that's too annoying to type
  443. # Session Close: Thu Aug 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)