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- # Session Start: Wed Aug 28 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [00:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: for the auto-placement algo... you want 'order'-modified document order
- # [00:13] <fantasai> not source order
- # [00:18] * fantasai goes to fix this
- # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Huh, we lost, like, *everyone* in the room.
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- # [00:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ?
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- # [01:20] <jdaggett> morning!
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- # [03:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Huh. According to irccloud, you're not in the room.
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- # [08:37] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0388.html'
- # [08:37] * Set by TabAtkins on Wed Aug 21 18:05:34
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- # [17:48] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
- # [17:48] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
- # [17:48] * plinss changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0570.html'
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- # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
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- # [17:54] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
- # [17:54] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
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- # [17:55] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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- # [17:58] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
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- # [18:02] <TabAtkins> zakim, aaaa is me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
- # [18:02] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, what’s the next step for Syntax?
- # [18:02] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Me to actually get it published by prepping and sending it todya.
- # [18:03] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
- # [18:03] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
- # [18:03] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Fonts
- # [18:04] <fantasai> waiting for Tab to get back
- # [18:04] <fantasai> Topic: Grid Layout
- # [18:04] <fantasai> plinss: Request for updated WD?
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober
- # [18:04] * TabAtkins is curious why he's required for Fonts.
- # [18:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0554.html
- # [18:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0353.html
- # [18:05] <jdaggett> TabAtkins: font-size-adjust!
- # [18:05] <leif> fantasai: Does anyone need me to go over the changes?
- # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Is there anyone here that needs me to go through the changes to Grid Layout that we want to publish?
- # [18:05] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: Meh, I'm fine with your conclusions in the thread. I think auto is useful, but whatever.
- # [18:05] <fantasai> [silence]
- # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: In that case, is everyone ok with us publishing an updated WD?
- # [18:06] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of Grid Layout
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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- # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
- # [18:07] <fantasai> plinss: Any other things to go over?
- # [18:07] <fantasai> fantasai: Good to get WG resolutions on some changes
- # [18:07] <fantasai> fantasai: First is change to named lines syntax from <string>+ to (<ident>*)
- # [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: 2 advantages -- using idents more consistent with CSS syntax conventions
- # [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Also parens provide visual grouping, easier to see how many lines and how names are grouped
- # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
- # [18:08] <fantasai> Rossen: Would be good to get Steve Zilles' opinion
- # [18:08] <fantasai> SteveZ: Haven't reviewed new syntax yet
- # [18:08] <SimonSapin> fantasai, should that be (<ident>+)+
- # [18:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: main advantage of parens is disambiguation?
- # [18:09] <fantasai> fantasai: Also visual grouping, b/c can have multiple names to single line
- # [18:10] <fantasai> ...
- # [18:10] <fantasai> SteveZ: Parens certainly avoid conflict situations that you could get into
- # [18:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Using idents introduces slightly less bad conflict in grid-placement properties, but that's not as much of a problem
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- # [18:11] <fantasai> SteveZ: sounds okay, if problem will reraise it
- # [18:11] <fantasai> plinss: Any objections?
- # [18:11] * Quits: arron (~arronei@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPhone")
- # [18:11] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Switch named lines syntax to (<ident>+)
- # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: Added 'grid' shorthand, using syntax from Bert's Template module, with slight modification to allow for named lines and for leaving out the template names
- # [18:12] <fantasai> plinss asks for comments
- # [18:12] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept 'grid' shorthand
- # [18:12] * Zakim sees RESOLVED:, Accept, 'grid', short on the speaker queue
- # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Fonts
- # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/doc-20130711-LCWD.html
- # [18:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: LC period finished last Thursday
- # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0239.html
- # [18:13] <fantasai> jdaggett: first is 'auto' value for 'font-size-adjust'
- # [18:13] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-size-adjust-auto-value
- # [18:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: As currently specced, takes aspect value of UA's default font
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- # [18:14] <fantasai> jdaggett: There was some confusion as to what the spec meant; people thought it meant you take the first font in the font-family list
- # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: Regardless, there's still a certain amount of variation across platforms and UAs and whether they allows users to set the default font, which creates more variation
- # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: The value was useful because it reflected what user would see on pages without any font settings
- # [18:15] <Zakim> -hober
- # [18:15] <fantasai> jdaggett: but can see the point that there's a lot of variability in different environments, etc...
- # [18:15] <fantasai> Vlad: Main concern that I have about unpredictability of results
- # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: If you don't specify anything, and use default font is used, no adjustment needed
- # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: If you do specify fonts, and mistakenly assume that 'auto' would get adjustment to aspect ratio of the fonts you specified... that's not going to happen
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- # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
- # [18:16] <Zakim> -??P34
- # [18:16] <fantasai> Vlad: So main objection is unpredictable results
- # [18:16] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
- # [18:16] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: goal is maintaining readability, this might actually act counter to that goal
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Would like more deterministic properties
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Specify a number, you get what you asked for
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Otherwise, no adjustment.
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Vlad: Straightforward strategy
- # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: There were several proposals from other people on the list
- # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: e.g. Jonathan Kew had a proposal
- # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: Those to me have other questions
- # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: And since we're at last stage of CSS3 Fonts, I would propose that we just drop 'auto' from CSS3 Fonts
- # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: And move it out into Level 4
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- # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: Any ojbections?
- # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds reasonable to me
- # [18:18] * Quits: arron (~arronei@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPhone")
- # [18:18] <fantasai> SteveZ: Existing implementations?
- # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: Nobody implements 'auto' value, so no impact
- # [18:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop 'auto' value of font-size-adjust
- # [18:19] <Zakim> +David_Baron
- # [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: Other issue that was brought up was relationship of font-size-adjust and line height
- # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Line height is typically specified relative to the font size
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- # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Vlad was concerned that there was nothing in the spec that talked about relationship of font-size-adjust and line-height
- # [18:20] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-size-adjust-auto-value
- # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: 'em' unit is not affected by font-size-adjust
- # [18:20] <Zakim> +[Apple]
- # [18:21] <fantasai> [reads note]
- # [18:21] * tantek is on IRC only today
- # [18:21] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
- # [18:21] <Zakim> +hober; got it
- # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: Does that cover what you're worried about, Vlad?
- # [18:21] <tantek> Zakim, tantek is on IRC only today.
- # [18:21] <Zakim> I don't understand 'tantek is on IRC only today', tantek
- # [18:21] <fantasai> Vlad: covers part of it
- # [18:21] <fantasai> Vlad: But not clear to implementers what's affected
- # [18:22] <fantasai> Vlad: Should be clear that line-height is always calculated wrt base font-size
- # [18:22] <fantasai> Vlad: Not affected by font-size-adjust
- # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: Think we're covered by css3-values
- # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Not entirely. line-height takes lengths, but also takes numbers
- # [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: You noted in the note that authors set line-height in em units, but that's really bad, should set in number units
- # [18:23] <fantasai> SteveZ: Question... specified, computed, used, which?
- # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: We decided on computed font-size for 'em', so probably line-height should be the same
- # [18:24] <fantasai> SteveZ: So font-size-adjust affects used font-size, but not computed font-size.
- # [18:24] <fantasai> SteveZ: Would be useful to say that.
- # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: So we need to add a normative statement to paragraph above
- # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: Say that font-size-adjust affects the used font-size (used to render text), not the computed font-size
- # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: That also addresses my concerns about describing precisely how this works.
- # [18:25] <fantasai> Vlad: Illustrated, but not specified.
- # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Other error in that note -- font-relative units, only 'em' is unaffected, 'ex', and 'ch' are affected
- # [18:26] <fantasai> plinss: So ex/ch are based on on used, not computed font-size
- # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes. We should clarify that in CSS3 Fonts
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- # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Specified already in CSS3 Values
- # [18:27] <fantasai> SimonSapin: 'used' should probably link to CSS3 Cascade definition
- # [18:27] * dbaron got to the airport a tad later than expected, and thus wasn't through security by the start of the teleconference; apologies for being late
- # [18:28] <fantasai> Missing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0170.html from DoC
- # [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: Used to be with superscripts/subscripts
- # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Difference is that it doesn't have fallback behavior
- # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Since used for numerics, put it with font-variant-numeric
- # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: I think that logic makes sense, but,
- # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: as you pointed out superscripts and ordinals are often confused with each other, so it would be helpful to authors to learn to distinguish them if they are in the same property
- # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: also, it's the only value of font-variant-numeric that doesn't actually affect digits
- # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: Are you asking for the value to be moved?
- # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes
- # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: I disagree for reasons above
- # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: There are arguments on both sides here:
- # [18:32] <fantasai> [summarizes arguments]
- # [18:32] <fantasai> * doesn't have fallback behavior, so want to avoid font-variant-position
- # [18:32] <fantasai> * related to numbers, so in font-variant-numeric
- # [18:33] <fantasai> * doesn't affect numerals/digits, so weird to put in font-variant-numeric
- # [18:33] <fantasai> * affects visual position, so makes sense in font-variant-position, despite lack of fallback
- # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: [...]
- # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: Subtle distinctions typically get lost on ordinary people
- # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: Behavior is much more like numerical forms [in that doesn't have fallback]
- # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: [...]
- # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: font-size-adjust only affects used, not computed, value of font-size -- clarify this in CSS3 Fonts
- # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Fix errors in note wrt using ems vs. numbers for line-height, affect of font-size-adjust on ex/ch
- # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: And please add some examples of ordinals, esp since confusion of what they are and how used
- # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: We'll come back to that next week, hopefully CR transition then
- # [18:37] <fantasai> Vlad: Thanks for all the consideration you gave to my comments
- # [18:37] <Zakim> -Vlad
- # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Thanks for reviewing the spec! We really appreciate that.
- # [18:37] <fantasai> Topic: Counter Styles
- # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: LC period expired
- # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Haven't addressed all comments
- # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Time frame?
- # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Hopefully next week?
- # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: Same is true for Cascade; haven't pulled together DoC yet
- # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Selectors 4?
- # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: Dont' have issues prepared
- # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Open Renaming Issues
- # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Image Values 3
- # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: object-fit marked as at-risk. Blink has an implementation, have a patch for WebKit
- # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: Have an implementation in old Opera code
- # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr: Would like object-fit to be marked as not at-risk
- # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: sounds reasonable to me
- # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't think we need to; at-risk means we *can* drop it if we want to, doesn't mean we have to
- # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Right
- # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: also, we can't count Blink/WebKit as two implementations
- # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: but Opera counts
- # [18:40] * tantek prefers leaving it at risk unless you've got a test case that passes two shipping implementations.
- # [18:41] <tantek> and what plinss said
- # [18:41] <fantasai> leif: Opera's implementation isn't entirely conformant
- # [18:41] <fantasai> hober: There's a PR angle to this; if marked as at-risk, authors think it can't be relied on
- # [18:42] <dbaron> I'd also prefer leaving it at risk. Unprefixed is great; it's in CR.
- # [18:42] <tantek> that's true
- # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: at-risk exists mainly for process reasons, given we have implementations, so I don't see a problem with taking it out of at-risk
- # [18:42] <tantek> disagree about "mainly for process reasons"
- # [18:43] <tantek> is there a URL to a test case that works in 2+ browsers (with different engines) ?
- # [18:43] <tantek> if so, then yes, remove from at-risk
- # [18:43] <tantek> if not, then leave it at risk
- # [18:43] <fantasai> plinss: Do we have tests?
- # [18:43] <tantek> and if so, provide URL to said test case(s) to the minutes please
- # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No
- # [18:43] <tantek> then leave it at-risk :P
- # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no change (for now)
- # [18:44] <TabAtkins> tantek: Um, that criteria would mean marking the entire spec at-risk.
- # [18:44] <tantek> let's stick with at least semi-objective criteria rather than debating things like that politically in a telcon :P
- # [18:44] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
- # [18:45] * dbaron is for wrapping up
- # [18:45] <Zakim> -jdaggett
- # [18:45] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
- # [18:45] <TabAtkins> At-risk is entirely for marking things that have a shaky future, such that we think it's a good idea but still *might* want to go back and kill/punt it. Marking it means that, process-wise, we can do so (and republish a CR) without it being a "substantive change" that'll require an LC round.
- # [18:45] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/naming
- # [18:46] <tantek> at-risk is for better communicating about the status of a feature to authors
- # [18:46] <tantek> and yes - helps with reducing CR-LC-CR roundtrips
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -David_Baron
- # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: If anyone has good ideas, we're looking for good ideas
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -smfr
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -rhauck
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Apple]
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -krit
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Otherwise, close the call
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -dael
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -leif
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
- # [18:46] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -glenn
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
- # [18:46] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [18:46] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [18:46] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, jdaggett, Vlad, rhauck, SimonSapin, glenn, shezbaig_wk, krit, leif, smfr, jerenkrantz, SteveZ, fantasai, dael, +1.281.305.aaaa, TabAtkins, hober, [Adobe],
- # [18:46] <Zakim> ... Rossen_, David_Baron
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- # [19:00] <TabAtkins> tantek: Communicating status to authors is useful, but it's not what the At-Risk designation is used for.
- # [19:01] <TabAtkins> tantek: And in particular, your attempt to say that we should tie it to the semi-objective criteria of "has tests in an official test suite" means that most features in most of our newer specs should all be marked at-risk.
- # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Which they aren't, and we won't do. So trying to apply that criterion to this feature specifically is inconsistent.
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- # [19:14] <TabAtkins> (Not to mention, I don't think "has tests in an official test-suite" maps well to the plain-English phrase "at-risk" anyway. If you think we should have such an annotation, I agree, but it would be called "is tested" or something.)
- # [19:25] <tantek> who ever said "official test-suite"?
- # [19:25] <tantek> I asked for a test case with a URL
- # [19:25] <tantek> that doesn't seem that much to ask for
- # [19:26] <tantek> (especially for a feature that presumably someone thinks is solid enough to not be "at-risk")
- # [19:26] <tantek> (heck, even a test in the spec itself would be great)
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- # [19:41] <TabAtkins> tantek: We certainly have test cases in browser test suites. Whether they have a url depends on how much you accept relying on github mirrors.
- # [19:42] <TabAtkins> But, again, regardless of that, your criteria cant' be applied consistently without marking a lot more stuff across lots of specs as "at-risk".
- # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Which is silly.
- # [19:59] <tantek> what's silly is claiming stuff isn't at risk when one cannot even produce a single public URL test case for it
- # [20:01] <TabAtkins> I'm claiming you're not consistent in applying the criterion. I'm making no claims for or against the criterion itself at the moment.
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- # [20:21] <tantek> TabAtkins - likely true. trying to be better about that. writing down the proposed spec iteration steps was a step in that direction. also I like including little mini-tests in specs themselves. :)
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- # [20:39] <Ms2ger> fantasai, yt?
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- # [22:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: bikeshed now lets you specify "Value" multiple times, and gloms them together.
- # [22:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And better handles badly-formatted propdefs, or propdefs with missing data, or with lines in a different order than our canonical ordering.
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- # [23:53] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: it took me a minute to figure out that https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/a48538e5f966 was about the processor
- # [23:53] <TabAtkins> yeah, trying to find something shorter than "preprocessor fix", because that's too annoying to type
- # Session Close: Thu Aug 29 00:00:00 2013
The end :)