/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-09-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  5. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Argh, I'm spending tomorrow working on integrating the IDL parser into bikeshed.
  6. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Marking up an IDL block in the spec makes it so much harder to read, and virtually all of the information can be automatically inferred.
  7. # [00:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Do you have a DoC on Counter Styles yet?
  8. # [00:39] * fantasai is running down the list of specs to see what needs follow-up ...
  9. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> No, I haven't written one.
  10. # [00:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Also! Did Dael get through 1st level approval yet?
  11. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Huh, I didn't get any information about it last Thursday, when she was supposed to go through. I'll ping the dude helping me out.
  12. # [00:40] <fantasai> :(
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  40. # [03:32] <plinss> TabAtkins: https://github.com/plinss/widlparser
  41. # [03:36] <TabAtkins> plinss: Cool!
  42. # [03:36] <plinss> Docs coming shortly...
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  111. # [16:00] <liam> plinss, ping?
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  125. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/04-css-irc
  126. # [17:52] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  127. # [17:52] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  128. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  129. # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  130. # [17:53] <Zakim> +plinss
  131. # [17:53] * Joins: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  132. # [17:53] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
  133. # [17:54] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  134. # [17:54] <glazou> hello, finally made it :-)
  135. # [17:54] <Zakim> +??P18
  136. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  137. # [17:54] <Zakim> ok, glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  138. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  139. # [17:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  140. # [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.413.325.aaaa
  141. # [17:55] <krit1> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  142. # [17:55] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, ??P18, +1.413.325.aaaa
  143. # [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.408.652.aabb
  144. # [17:55] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  145. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is me
  146. # [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  147. # [17:55] * krit1 strange, am I P18?
  148. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P32
  149. # [17:56] * krit1 is now known as krit
  150. # [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
  151. # [17:56] <dcramer> 413.325.1307 is Dave Cramer from Hachette
  152. # [17:56] <glenn> zakim, ??p332 is me
  153. # [17:56] <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I do not recognize a party named '??p332'
  154. # [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  155. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P40
  156. # [17:56] <glenn> zakim, ??p32 is me
  157. # [17:56] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  158. # [17:56] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  159. # [17:56] <krit> Zakim, P18 is me
  160. # [17:56] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
  161. # [17:56] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller is me
  162. # [17:56] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  163. # [17:56] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  164. # [17:56] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  165. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> Zakim, aacc is dcramer
  166. # [17:56] <Zakim> +dcramer; got it
  167. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Lea
  168. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Stearns
  169. # [17:57] <krit> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  170. # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  171. # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aadd
  172. # [17:57] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  173. # [17:57] <rhauck> Zakim, aadd is me
  174. # [17:57] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
  175. # [17:57] <Zakim> +smfr
  176. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaee
  177. # [17:58] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  178. # [17:58] <dael> zakim, aaee is me
  179. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dael; got it
  180. # [17:58] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
  181. # [17:58] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0061.html'
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  183. # [17:59] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  184. # [17:59] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  185. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Plh
  186. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +44..aaff
  187. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Bert
  188. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  189. # [17:59] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  190. # [17:59] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  191. # [17:59] <Zakim> +fantasai
  192. # [18:00] <SimonSapin> How do I tell Zakim about a room with two people?
  193. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  194. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +93192aagg
  195. # [18:00] <antonp> Zakim, aagg is me
  196. # [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  197. # [18:00] * plinss SimonSapin - see what hober did above...
  198. # [18:00] * hober SimonSapin: Zakim, foo has me \n Zakim, foo has someone else
  199. # [18:00] <florian> Zakim, IPcaller has me
  200. # [18:01] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  201. # [18:01] <ChrisL> zakim, simon has foo
  202. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'simon'
  203. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, aaff is [Mozilla]
  204. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]; got it
  205. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aahh
  206. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> [Mozilla] has SimonSapin
  207. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [Mozilla] has SimonSapin
  208. # [18:01] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  209. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
  210. # [18:01] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  211. # [18:01] <bkardell> 520.280.3584 is bkardell
  212. # [18:02] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  213. # [18:02] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
  214. # [18:02] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  215. # [18:02] <fantasai> plinss: Any additions to the agenda
  216. # [18:02] <fantasai> Topic: Unicode-Range
  217. # [18:03] <fantasai> SimonSapin: In the Syntax spec, some changes from CSS2.1
  218. # [18:03] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Tried to match Fonts spec, do parsing/normalization of unicode-range in tokenizer
  219. # [18:03] * ChrisL gets passcode invalid, sigh
  220. # [18:03] <fantasai> SimonSapin: But fonts spec changed
  221. # [18:03] * ChrisL zakim, code?
  222. # [18:03] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, ChrisL
  223. # [18:03] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So want to revert changes, and do what CSS2.1 does for UNICODE-RANGE
  224. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  225. # [18:03] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
  226. # [18:04] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Prefer to do parsing in Syntax, have unicode-range return pair of integers rather than string
  227. # [18:04] * fantasai has two conflicting statements here, unsure which is correct
  228. # [18:04] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  229. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> s/Prefer/Tab prefers/
  230. # [18:04] * fantasai thanks
  231. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +33.9.81.36.aaii
  232. # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Well, I know we have implementations of the 2.1 tokenization
  233. # [18:05] <ChrisL> zakim, aaii is me
  234. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
  235. # [18:05] <fantasai> SimonSapin: They're not testable
  236. # [18:05] <fantasai> dbaron: Some cases can be tested via obscure counter-reset/increment declarations
  237. # [18:06] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  238. # [18:06] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  239. # [18:06] <fantasai> dbaron: But don't think it's worth worrying about
  240. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  241. # [18:06] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  242. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  243. # [18:06] <fantasai> dbaron: 2 questions - what is the desired behavior, and which spec?
  244. # [18:06] <fantasai> dbaron: So first, what's the desired behavior
  245. # [18:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: Desired behavior in terms of ... ?
  246. # [18:07] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  247. # [18:07] <fantasai> dbaron: What are the differences in behavior that we're discussing
  248. # [18:07] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Fonts spec changed details of UNICODE-RANGE parsing in last WD
  249. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aajj
  250. # [18:07] <fantasai> SimonSapin: e.g. ranges beyond Unicode used to be clipped, but are now invalid
  251. # [18:07] <jerenkrantz> zakim, aajj is me
  252. # [18:07] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  253. # [18:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: How does that impact Syntax?
  254. # [18:07] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Because Syntax defines tokenization
  255. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: Syntax used to do clipping in the tokenizer
  256. # [18:08] <fantasai> jdaggett: Only opposition is Tab, and he's not on the call atm
  257. # [18:08] <fantasai> SimonSapin: What came out of ML discussion was Tab, was compromise
  258. # [18:08] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Tokenizer would have pair of integers
  259. # [18:08] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Leave to fonts what to do with integers, depending on whether increasing/decreasing etc.
  260. # [18:08] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Just two integers given back
  261. # [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: impact of what we're talking about is whether parser takes something as UNICODE-RANGE or not
  262. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0019.html
  263. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aakk
  264. # [18:09] <fantasai> jdaggett: Cases where author will want to use that syntax somewhere else is almost never
  265. # [18:09] * Quits: florian (~yaaic@public.cloak) ("")
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  267. # [18:10] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Proposal is to remove part of syntax that defines unicode-range range restrictions
  268. # [18:10] * fantasai is biased towards Simon's position
  269. # [18:10] * fantasai rather than Tab
  270. # [18:11] <fantasai> plinss: Does this impact Fonts, which is going ot CR?
  271. # [18:11] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  272. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: ie. removing this section: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/aa1b58939f73/css-syntax/Overview.html#set-the-unicode-ranges-range
  273. # [18:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Could remove stuff from Fonts spec, because covered by Syntax
  274. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't think we should be removing anything from Fonts spec, Syntax is kindof early stages, would like Fonts to be complete as of now.
  275. # [18:12] <fantasai> jdaggett agrees
  276. # [18:12] <fantasai> ChrisL: Don't want Fonts spec to change
  277. # [18:12] <fantasai> ChrisL: Given it's going to CR
  278. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: UNICODE-RANGE in CSS2.1 accepts syntax that will never be needed/used
  279. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P98
  280. # [18:13] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P98
  281. # [18:13] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  282. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would like those cases to not parse as UNICODE-RANGE.
  283. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But fine with range-restrictions staying in Fonts spec
  284. # [18:13] <fantasai> ...
  285. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I would like to kill U+1?3
  286. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> examples of bad syntax: U+1?3, U+1?-30
  287. # [18:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Want to make that invalid at the tokenization level
  288. # [18:14] <fantasai> SimonSapin, I think the second one is already invalid in 2.1
  289. # [18:14] * ChrisL apologizes for the unicode range syntax in general. 'nicely terse' seemed a good idea at the time
  290. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> fantasai, it is valid in 2.1
  291. # [18:14] * leaverou ChrisL++
  292. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Any other comments?
  293. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> 2.1’s definition: u\+[0-9a-f?]{1,6}(-[0-9a-f]{1,6})?
  294. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: No changes to Fonts spec, right?
  295. # [18:15] <fantasai> right
  296. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: So only question is whether UNICODE-RANGE uses the 2.1 syntax or Syntax syntax
  297. # [18:16] * leaverou ChrisL: I’m actually writing an email on that, as what I wanted to say is a bit off-topic for this discussion
  298. # [18:16] <fantasai> jdaggett: [talks about splitting definitions across specs]
  299. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: If we're changing definition fo UNICODE-RANGE, we need to errata 2.1
  300. # [18:16] * Parts: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) (florian)
  301. # [18:16] * Joins: {Darktears} (~darktears@public.cloak)
  302. # [18:16] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  303. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Can't have two different definitions depending which spec you read
  304. # [18:17] <fantasai> plinss: Anyone objecting to Tab's change?
  305. # [18:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Simon's proposal was to accept 2.1 syntax, and have Font's processing make things invalid
  306. # [18:18] <fantasai> SimonSapin: I'm fine with Tab's proposal as well
  307. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: Only thing that bothers me is that we have implementations on the 2.1 tokenization
  308. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: They'd have to go back and change
  309. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's (for the most part) author-undetectable
  310. # [18:19] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  311. # [18:19] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  312. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: I'd like to see the regex first, if that's ok
  313. # [18:19] * dbaron SimonSapin, http://dbaron.org/css/test/2013/urange-token shows detecting unicode-range with counter-increment
  314. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ok, I will send to ML
  315. # [18:20] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  316. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: UNICODE-RANGE token changed (in Syntax & CSS2.1) to be more restrictive in what it takes, per Tab's proposal
  317. # [18:21] <fantasai> No changes to Fonts
  318. # [18:21] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/doc-20130711-LCWD.html
  319. # [18:21] <fantasai> plinss: Fonts to CR?
  320. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: There was one outstanding issue on 'ordinals', but that got cleared up over ML with examples/pics
  321. # [18:22] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
  322. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: Question is, do we need another LC or go to CR?
  323. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't think there's a huge impact on implementations from any of these changes
  324. # [18:22] <ChrisL> q+
  325. # [18:22] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  326. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: Most significant change is removing 'auto' value
  327. # [18:23] <plinss> ack next
  328. # [18:23] * Zakim sees ChrisL at the head of the speaker queue
  329. # [18:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  330. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think we need to go through another LC, changes aren't very major
  331. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: Spec is currently listing everything as major changes, most are minor
  332. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: But several are substantial [lists]
  333. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: Reorder feature precedence, 'auto', etc.
  334. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: All these need to be addressed, and argue that they are minor
  335. # [18:25] <fantasai> ChrisL: I'd rather not do another LC
  336. # [18:25] <Zakim> +BradK
  337. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Auto value was never implemented
  338. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Not part of CSS2 spec
  339. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: Only removing a single value, that was never implemented
  340. # [18:27] <dbaron> I think ChrisL was saying that we need to argue that the changes weren't substantial in order to go from LC to CR.
  341. # [18:27] <dbaron> (for minutes)
  342. # [18:27] <dbaron> s/substantial/substantive/
  343. # [18:27] <fantasai> [process discussion]
  344. # [18:27] <ChrisL> http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=cr-tr
  345. # [18:27] <fantasai> jdaggett: So I should revise Changes section to not list changes as major
  346. # [18:28] <ChrisL> quote "Some reasons for declining a transition request
  347. # [18:28] <ChrisL> The technical report has been substantively modified since the previous transition. In this case, the document is returned to the Working Group for further work."
  348. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Could also add an "impact" statement, to describe what the impact is on implementations
  349. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: For most of these, no impact, because there aren't implementations
  350. # [18:30] <fantasai> [discussion of how to style DoC]
  351. # [18:31] * SimonSapin Bert, TabAtkins: regexp equivalent of the proposed change to unicode-range: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2971826
  352. # [18:31] <fantasai> [more discussion of handling DoC]
  353. # [18:31] * Bert thanks simon
  354. # [18:31] <fantasai> ChrisL: I'm trying to be pre-emptively awkward here, to make the transition call go smoothly
  355. # [18:32] * SimonSapin Bert, oops, correction: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2971837
  356. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: I get your point Chris, and but for this point, i don't think this is worth taking up group time
  357. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: I'd rather take up 10 min of transition call time than 10 min of CSSWG telecon time
  358. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: Any objections to CR?
  359. # [18:32] <fantasai> SteveZ: Sent email this morning on 'ordinal' issue
  360. # [18:33] * TabAtkins SimonSapin Bert Yeah, I was drawing up a slightly different one, but it's functionally identical, and yours is somewhat clearer.
  361. # [18:33] <ChrisL> ok. socan we have a minuted decision to request CR followed by a transition request email
  362. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: I have no text that's there, just want to point out that there's an aspect of ordinals that is in the OT definition, that really no longer applies
  363. # [18:33] <ChrisL> I can help draft the transition request if that would help
  364. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: The original conception of 'ordinal' feature was that you could mark a paragraph, and it would ordinal everything that was number followed by letters
  365. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: Problem was that writing rules for all languages was troublessome
  366. # [18:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: So you need to apply the feature around just the numbers
  367. # [18:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: as the example shows
  368. # [18:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: Might want to say that in the text
  369. # [18:34] <fantasai> jdaggett: Don't think it's necessary
  370. # [18:34] <fantasai> jdaggett: I can add to the sentence within the example, just to indicate that it's not applied to the paragraph
  371. # [18:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: That sounds good to me
  372. # [18:35] <fantasai> SteveZ: Just want a warning to not apply it to the whole paragraph
  373. # [18:35] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) (lmclister)
  374. # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: Any objections to CR?
  375. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: No, let's do it!
  376. # [18:35] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  377. # [18:35] <ChrisL> none at all
  378. # [18:35] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Fonts Level 3 to CR
  379. # [18:36] <fantasai> ACTION ChrisL Send transition request
  380. # [18:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  381. # [18:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-576 - Send transition request [on Chris Lilley - due 2013-09-11].
  382. # [18:36] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Cascade
  383. # [18:36] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Signing Off. Buh-bye.")
  384. # [18:36] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/issues-lc-2013
  385. # [18:36] <ChrisL> rrsagent, draft minutes
  386. # [18:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/04-css-minutes.html ChrisL
  387. # [18:37] * glazou loves comment #3 in that list
  388. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes all the comments
  389. # [18:37] <glazou> go ahead!
  390. # [18:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Cascade L3 to CR
  391. # [18:38] <fantasai> Topic: text-combine-horizontal and font features
  392. # [18:38] * fantasai sent email to jdaggett on this just now
  393. # [18:38] * TabAtkins is switching phones, brb
  394. # [18:38] <Zakim> - +1.832.797.aakk
  395. # [18:39] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
  396. # [18:39] <Zakim> + +1.281.627.aall
  397. # [18:39] * Bert has to leave
  398. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> zakim, aall is me
  399. # [18:39] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  400. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> zakim, aakk was me
  401. # [18:39] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aakk was me', TabAtkins
  402. # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: [summarizes discussion]
  403. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm fine with that
  404. # [18:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: Can I raise a related issue?
  405. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: Can you raise it on the list?
  406. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Will it impact this discussion?
  407. # [18:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: Don't know
  408. # [18:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: When I contacted Adobe font people about compression issue, they basically said "don't do that"
  409. # [18:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: So I had a private conversation with Koji, who said 'but we have to do that, because the WebKit based publication guide wants to be able to ensure that all their text fits within an em-square for body text'
  410. # [18:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: Issue I'm concerned about is making the default for text-combine do the compression
  411. # [18:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: Rather than have a property to turn it on
  412. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Bert
  413. # [18:42] <fantasai> SteveZ: Which would remove many of the cases that we seem to be stumbling over
  414. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: This issue is exactly what we discussed 1.5 years ago.
  415. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: We had a property to control it
  416. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: But seemed overkill to me
  417. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: Maybe post to the list, what you want
  418. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: We've added this property, and then took it out, and now you're leaning towards bringing it back
  419. # [18:43] <fantasai> SteveZ: What I want is not have the default be compression
  420. # [18:43] <dbaron> fantasai: reason default is compression for CSS and not for indesign is that in indesign author can see and tweak the result and will adjust it; in CSS author doesn't see it and doesn't know exactly where lines will break, etc.
  421. # [18:43] <dbaron> fantasai: important for publishers not to have overlap. Can't manually check with CSS. So better to force 1em compression so they can guarantee there's no conflict.
  422. # [18:44] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  423. # [18:44] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  424. # [18:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  425. # [18:44] <ChrisL> rrsagent, draft minutes
  426. # [18:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/04-css-minutes.html ChrisL
  427. # [18:45] <fantasai> SteveZ: Use in headings usually doesn't result in conflicts
  428. # [18:45] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  429. # [18:45] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
  430. # [18:45] * tantek reads
  431. # [18:45] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'd like to capture the resolution that for now we take out the automatic disabling of full-width variants
  432. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: As long as we are ok to reopen if we wind up with fonts that would benefit, I'm ok with that
  433. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: TCY doesn't disable font-variant: full-width. Revisit if fonts start to become popular that would benefit from this extra interaction
  434. # [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Images
  435. # [18:47] <fantasai> Swapping order of color stop fixul
  436. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Gradients require color stops to be in order
  437. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If not, push later ones to position of next position
  438. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Rules for fixup right now they work, but result in weird ness for animations
  439. # [18:48] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0296.html
  440. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Step 2-3 requires layout infos
  441. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Back when doing gradients, Shane suggested changing this
  442. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we shot this down because fatigued with gradient changes
  443. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But should revisit
  444. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Small change
  445. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Rendering change is fairly minor
  446. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And not likely to be many cases affected
  447. # [18:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So Suggest swapping order of steps, so that can transition gradients without requiring layout
  448. # [18:49] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Signing Off. Buh-bye.")
  449. # [18:49] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  450. # [18:49] <fantasai> rhauck: Any specific examples that would change?
  451. # [18:49] * fantasai thanks jdaggett
  452. # [18:49] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  453. # [18:49] <leaverou> s/rhauck/Lea/
  454. # [18:49] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
  455. # [18:49] <fantasai> sorry :)
  456. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#color-stop-syntax
  457. # [18:49] * leaverou np :)
  458. # [18:50] <fantasai> florian: If we do this, should go into L3
  459. # [18:50] * jdaggett is now known as jdaggett|zzzz
  460. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> linear-gradient(red 100px, blue 0px, white, yellow 200px)
  461. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> currently, fixup moved the blue one first, then figures out the white positino, so you get
  462. # [18:50] <fantasai> krit: We don't order when we have transitions
  463. # [18:50] <fantasai> ?
  464. # [18:50] <fantasai> krit: Asking, you asked to move the ordering step to the last possible way
  465. # [18:50] <fantasai> krit: When you have transitions, you do not order the color stops
  466. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Correct
  467. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You position first/last stops and interpolate
  468. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Then at layout time do the stop fixup
  469. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> so currently, you end up with red 100px, blue 100px, white 150px, yellow 200px.
  470. # [18:51] <fantasai> krit: Ok, I'm fine with this
  471. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> With my change, you'd end up with red 100px, blue 0px, white 100px, yellow 200px
  472. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> and at layout, it'd be fixed up to red 100px, blue 100px, white 100px, yellow 200px.
  473. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> but you'd do transitions with the prior one
  474. # [18:52] <fantasai> Leif: Given implications of this, I think I'd like some time to review
  475. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ok
  476. # [18:52] <fantasai> plinss: Come to back to this for F2F/
  477. # [18:52] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 MQ Errata
  478. # [18:52] <Zakim> -Lea
  479. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: There was a thread, someone pointed out obvious mistake in 2 places
  480. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Mistake is in REC errata
  481. # [18:53] <fantasai> florian: I've updated MQ4, asked plh to update errata
  482. # [18:53] <fantasai> plh: Haven't processed email yet, but should be done today
  483. # [18:53] <fantasai> florian: Ok, thanks!
  484. # [18:53] <fantasai> florian: As for folding them into MQ and publishing updated REC, we thought to wait awhile to do that.
  485. # [18:53] <fantasai> florian: Maybe we'll run into more issues
  486. # [18:54] <fantasai> florian: Maybe wait until end of year
  487. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe aim for TPAC
  488. # [18:54] * leaverou sorry, dropped off and can't rejoin :( Still trying
  489. # [18:54] * fantasai it's blocked now, bc 5 min left
  490. # [18:54] * leaverou :(
  491. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Put it on TPAC agenda, assign any relevant action items then
  492. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: F2F next week, please add your items to agenda so we can use time productively!
  493. # [18:55] <Zakim> -BradK
  494. # [18:55] <Zakim> -rhauck
  495. # [18:55] <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
  496. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: See you all next week
  497. # [18:55] <Zakim> -smfr
  498. # [18:55] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  499. # [18:55] <Zakim> -leif
  500. # [18:55] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  501. # [18:55] <Zakim> -glazou
  502. # [18:55] <Zakim> -dael
  503. # [18:55] <Zakim> -glenn
  504. # [18:55] <Zakim> -antonp
  505. # [18:55] * Parts: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  506. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Stearns
  507. # [18:55] <Zakim> -krit
  508. # [18:55] <Zakim> -plinss
  509. # [18:55] <Zakim> - +1.413.325.aaaa
  510. # [18:55] <Zakim> -fantasai
  511. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Plh
  512. # [18:55] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  513. # [18:55] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  514. # [18:55] <Zakim> - +1.520.280.aahh
  515. # [18:55] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  516. # [18:55] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  517. # [18:55] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  518. # [18:55] * Parts: leif (~lstorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  519. # [18:55] * Parts: dcramer (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (dcramer)
  520. # [18:56] <Zakim> -dcramer
  521. # [18:56] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  522. # [18:56] <Zakim> -??P40
  523. # [18:58] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  524. # [18:58] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
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  526. # [18:59] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  527. # [19:01] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  528. # [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  529. # [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.413.325.aaaa, +1.408.652.aabb, glazou, +1.415.832.aacc, glenn, jdaggett, dcramer, Lea, Stearns, krit, +1.415.615.aadd, rhauck, smfr, +1.610.324.aaee,
  530. # [19:01] <Zakim> ... dael, Plh, +44..aaff, Bert, hober, fantasai, +93192aagg, antonp, florian, +1.520.280.aahh, SimonSapin, dbaron, +33.9.81.36.aaii, ChrisL, Rossen_, +1.212.318.aajj, jerenkrantz,
  531. # [19:01] <Zakim> ... +1.832.797.aakk, leif, BradK, +1.281.627.aall, TabAtkins
  532. # [19:02] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) ("Client combusted")
  533. # [19:05] * Quits: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  534. # [19:11] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  535. # [19:15] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  536. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Bikeshed gives me "FATAL ERROR: No 'type' refs found for '<unicode-range>'."
  537. # [19:29] <SimonSapin> I’m using <<<unicode-range>>> in the source
  538. # [19:36] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  539. # [19:37] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  540. # [19:38] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: oh, got it. I had <<<unicode-range>>, missing one >
  541. # [20:01] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  542. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yup, note the error message - it was looking for a "type" def, not a "token" def, which indicates you got the syntax-guesser confused.
  543. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> ah, <<foo>> is a type. Got it
  544. # [20:30] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  545. # [20:52] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  546. # [20:57] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  547. # [21:04] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  548. # [21:04] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  549. # [21:10] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  550. # [22:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins, SimonSapin: Does bikeshed use biblio.ref or what?
  551. # [22:02] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  552. # [22:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins, SimonSapin: Because it's got out-of-date references to css3-conditional.
  553. # [22:39] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  554. # [22:53] <fantasai> Bert: I'm going to set up Grid Layout for publication, if you can help the webmaster set it up tomorrow, that would be great!
  555. # [22:53] <fantasai> Bert: want to get it up before the f2f
  556. # [22:53] * fantasai wanted to add some more examples before publishing, but didn't get to it over the weekend :(
  557. # [22:56] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  558. # [23:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I think it uses its own copy of data from biblio.ref: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/spec-data/specs.json
  559. # [23:13] <SimonSapin> I don’t know exactly how to update it
  560. # [23:15] <fantasai> :/
  561. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> well no, it’s not that file
  562. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> but it’s still cached: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/7ab832578ff9bae4729f24d3700dccb05a5f7b74/bikeshed.py#L1019
  563. # [23:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  564. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> fantasai: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/biblio.refer
  565. # [23:19] <SimonSapin> it’s supposed to update itself if you remove the file, except that doesn’t work because https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/biblio.ref is Member-only and requires a password…
  566. # [23:19] <SimonSapin> this really shouldn’t be Member-only
  567. # [23:24] <fantasai> agreed
  568. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> wrote to w3c-css-wg
  569. # [23:24] <fantasai> Do you have write access to update Tab's copy?
  570. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> no, but I can make a pull request
  571. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> I’ll do that
  572. # [23:25] <fantasai> ok
  573. # [23:25] * fantasai thinks Tab should give you write access :)
  574. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> I would still appreciate reviews for code changes, but for things like this yes.
  575. # [23:26] * Joins: antonp1 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  576. # [23:29] * Quits: curvedmark (~curvedmark@public.cloak) ("My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  577. # [23:30] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  578. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> fantasai: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/pull/24
  579. # [23:34] * Quits: jdaggett|zzzz (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett|zzzz)
  580. # [23:44] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  581. # [23:45] * Joins: antonp2 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  582. # [23:46] * Quits: antonp1 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  583. # [23:51] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  584. # [23:51] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  585. # [23:53] * Quits: antonp2 (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp2)
  586. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Yeah, specs.json is a reformatted version of Shepherd's spec knowledge.
  587. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> And I've already sent a nagging email to move biblio.ref to somewhere public. :/
  588. # [23:57] <SimonSapin> plinss: would it be doable to set up a copy somewhere on csswg.org?
  589. # [23:58] <SimonSapin> I mean set up the scripts to keep it up to date
  590. # [23:59] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  591. # Session Close: Thu Sep 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)