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- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [10:33] <zcorpan> hg pull times out for me. what's up?
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- # [10:41] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: same here
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- # [16:02] <SimonSapin> so … we decided at the F2F to move device-cmyk() from GCPM to Color 4. We also talked about color-managed CMYK, but did we decide to have it in CSS?
- # [16:25] <cabanier> SimonSapin: please don't add that
- # [16:27] <SimonSapin> cabanier: what do you mean?
- # [16:27] <cabanier> SimonSapin: nobody wants calibrated CMYK. At least in the real world
- # [16:28] <SimonSapin> ok
- # [16:28] <cabanier> SimonSapin: not sure if other people agree with that though :/
- # [16:28] <SimonSapin> I’m not editor of that spec, but just asking because it seems to be what Chris is discussing on the mailing list
- # [16:29] <cabanier> SimonSapin: yeah. I should write back. I know he wants it, but he's still stuck in the nineties
- # [16:32] <SimonSapin> it seems that everyone in that discussion has a bunch of implicit assumptions
- # [16:32] <SimonSapin> (different for everyone, of course)
- # [16:47] <cabanier> SimonSapin: yeah
- # [16:47] <cabanier> SimonSapin: keep it simple...
- # [16:49] <SimonSapin> do you think device-cmyk() is desirable itself, rather than just a "stop-gap" solution?
- # [16:50] <SimonSapin> device-specific stuff seems contrary to the web’s idea of device independence
- # [16:50] <cabanier> device independent color doesn't work for cmyk
- # [16:51] <cabanier> I should dig up our document that we wrote on this
- # [16:52] <cabanier> It still didn't cover all cases.
- # [16:53] <cabanier> found it! http://www.valleynewspapers.org/PDF/CS2_Printing_Guide_for_Prepress_Service_Providers.pdf
- # [16:54] <cabanier> this is for CS2 which already turned off most color management
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- # [16:59] <TabAtkins> I don't see how it's possible to mix RGB and CMYK without specifying a color profile for conversion.
- # [16:59] <TabAtkins> (Or else relying on the default conversion, which will be slightly wrong for most devices.)
- # [16:59] <cabanier> you don't know the output profile for cmyk anyway
- # [16:59] <cabanier> better to do something consistent
- # [17:00] <cabanier> the other way, you know the profile since rgb is always sRGB
- # [17:00] <cabanier> most desktop printers are rgb by the way
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- # [17:01] <TabAtkins> Well, you dont' know the output profile if you're printing to an unknown device.
- # [17:01] <TabAtkins> You do if you're targetting a specific printer, which seems common for the cases where people actually need to use CMYK.
- # [17:01] <cabanier> when would you print to an unknown device?
- # [17:01] <TabAtkins> But that still doesn't address my concern - it doesn't seem possible to mix RGB and CMYK without a profile.
- # [17:02] <TabAtkins> cabanier: That's... the 99.99% case? Most printing is done by the user, not under the direction of the author.
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- # [17:02] <cabanier> your printer driver will tell you the profile
- # [17:02] <TabAtkins> If so, then great - you *do* know the output profile.
- # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Or rather, the browser does, and my spec text allows the browser to use that info to properly convert CMYK into RGB space.
- # [17:03] <TabAtkins> But I was told at the f2f that printers dont' usually expose that information.
- # [17:03] <SimonSapin> the CSS UA doesn’t know the printer when converting to PDF
- # [17:04] <cabanier> SimonSapin: in the case of PDF, just put the colors in the file
- # [17:05] <cabanier> SimonSapin: when you print the pdf, the colors will be handled correctly
- # [17:05] <TabAtkins> cabanier: That's what Hakon kept saying. "Just use PDF" isnt' an answer when the browser is the one doing the printing, or pdf.js is doing the displaying.
- # [17:05] <cabanier> TabAtkins: when you print to a printer, do you want that to match what's on the screen?
- # [17:05] <cabanier> TabAtkins: I'm not saying that either
- # [17:06] <cabanier> TabAtkins: PDF is just one of the output paths. It's a path that doesn't require you to do any conversion
- # [17:06] <cabanier> TabAtkins: when you print HTML, the rules change
- # [17:06] <SimonSapin> cabanier: does the PDF format support "device CMYK"? What do on-screen PDF viewers do with it? What does PDF say about mixing device CMYK with RGB in a gradient, or with transparency?
- # [17:07] <cabanier> SimonSapin: our tools pretty much *always* export device cmyk
- # [17:07] <cabanier> SimonSapin: you have to go out of your way to get calibrated cmyk
- # [17:07] <cabanier> need to go...
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- # [17:36] * renoirb sets mode: +o glazou
- # [17:36] * glazou sets mode: -n
- # [17:36] * glazou sets mode: -t
- # [17:36] * glazou sets mode: -s
- # [17:36] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0655.html'
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- # [17:37] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-css-irc
- # [17:37] <@glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:37] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
- # [17:37] <@glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
- # [17:38] * glazou sets mode: +o plinss
- # [17:38] * glazou sets mode: +o plh
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- # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:54] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
- # [17:54] <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
- # [17:54] <Zakim> +dael; got it
- # [17:54] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P8
- # [17:55] <Zakim> -??P8
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P8
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- # [17:55] <@glazou> Zakim, code?
- # [17:55] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P9
- # [17:55] <@glazou> Zakim, mute me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
- # [17:55] <@glazou> Zakim, ??P9 is me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:55] <@glazou> Zakim, mute me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
- # [17:55] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [17:55] <@glazou> wow, super strong noise
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- # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P9
- # [17:56] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [17:56] <dael> I'm hearing it too, even after I muted
- # [17:56] <@glazou> me too
- # [17:56] <@glazou> dael, before I joined too ?
- # [17:56] <@glazou> let me know if it continues after I log off
- # [17:56] <dael> glazou, yes, before you joined
- # [17:56] <Zakim> -??P9
- # [17:56] <jerenkrantz> Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [17:56] <@glazou> still ongoing ?
- # [17:56] <dael> still ongoing
- # [17:56] <@glazou> sigh
- # [17:57] <Zakim> jerenkrantz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P8 (40%)
- # [17:57] <@glazou> Zakim, mute ?P8
- # [17:57] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P8
- # [17:57] <@glazou> zakim, mute ??P8
- # [17:57] <Zakim> ??P8 should now be muted
- # [17:57] <@glazou> better ?
- # [17:57] <dael> better!
- # [17:57] * @plh zakim, call plh-mobile
- # [17:57] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +Plh
- # [17:57] <@glazou> woooof
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P26
- # [17:57] <@glazou> Zakim, ??P26 is me
- # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:58] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
- # [17:58] <Zakim> + +49.341.263.2.aabb
- # [17:58] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +florian; got it
- # [17:58] * Joins: arronei_ (~arronei@public.cloak)
- # [17:58] <krit1> Zakim, aabb is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +krit1; got it
- # [17:58] <@glazou> ScribeNick: dael
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +Stearns
- # [17:59] <@glazou> so I have no idea who is ??P8
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- # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P37
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- # [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P37 is me
- # [18:00] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
- # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
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- # [18:00] <jerenkrantz> Zakim, aacc is me
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
- # [18:00] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aadd
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
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- # [18:00] <Zakim> +dbaron
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> + +93192aaee
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:01] <antonp> Zakim, aaee is me
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
- # [18:01] <@glazou> Regrets: smft, leif
- # [18:01] <jdaggett> zakim, ipcaller.a is me
- # [18:01] <@glazou> Regrets: bkardell
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
- # [18:01] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [18:01] * Zakim sees on the phone: dael, ??P8 (muted), Plh, glazou, [IPcaller], krit1, Stearns, SimonSapin, jerenkrantz, +47.21.65.aadd, SylvaIng, plinss, dbaron, antonp, Bert, jdaggett
- # [18:01] * Zakim [IPcaller] has florian
- # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaff
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +dauwhe
- # [18:03] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz.a
- # [18:03] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:03] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P57
- # [18:03] <@glazou> Zakim, mute jerenkrantz.a
- # [18:03] <Zakim> jerenkrantz.a should now be muted
- # [18:03] <koji> zakim, ??p57 is me
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +koji; got it
- # [18:03] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (44%), jerenkrantz.a (11%), +1.832.797.aaff (58%), Bert (23%)
- # [18:03] * @plh this is C-SPAN-CSS?
- # [18:03] <jerenkrantz> wasn't me...likely a coworker. =)
- # [18:03] * ChrisL waits for opewrator
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- # [18:03] <sgalineau> <c-span style="css">
- # [18:03] <jdaggett> wow, *what* was that...
- # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aagg
- # [18:04] * ChrisL having problems joining
- # [18:04] <rhauck> Zakim, aagg is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
- # [18:04] <@glazou> waiting for you ChrisL
- # [18:04] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
- # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.425.301.aahh
- # [18:04] <c_palmer> Zakim, jerenkrantz.a is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
- # [18:04] * Joins: howcome (~howcome@public.cloak)
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
- # [18:04] <c_palmer> apologies if that was my phone
- # [18:04] * sgalineau another 16 years and we might get the internet in here
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: First thing, Dae starts scribing today
- # [18:05] <stearns> woohoo!
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Thank you dael, don't hestitate to stop us
- # [18:05] <michou1> Zakim: [Adobe] is me
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: if dael needs names corrected, don't hesitate to do that
- # [18:05] <dael> TabAtkins: if you need to scribe someone you don't know, just put three questionmarks
- # [18:06] <dael> glazou: If you don't know a term, ask a speaker to clarify
- # [18:06] <Zakim> + +33.6.03.00.aaii
- # [18:06] <dael> glazou: 2nd, i won't make it to shenzhen, plinss will chair
- # [18:06] <dael> glazou: any additions to the adgenda?
- # [18:06] <dael> glazou: ChrisL are you there?
- # [18:06] <dael> ChrisL: yes
- # [18:06] * dbaron Zakim, aaii is ChrisL
- # [18:06] * Zakim +ChrisL; got it
- # [18:07] <michou1> Zakim [Adobe] is me
- # [18:07] <dael> glazou: first is for you [break in minutes]
- # [18:08] <@plh> q+
- # [18:08] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
- # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aajj
- # [18:09] <@glazou> ack plh
- # [18:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:12] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
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- # [18:13] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
- # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:14] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
- # [18:14] <dael> [minutes resume]
- # [18:14] <dael> Topic: Compositing and Blending Level 1
- # [18:15] <dael> syl: We agreeed today is when we move to last call, sorry I only sent the reminder yesterday. We can move it to next week if needed
- # [18:15] <dael> sylvaing: david provided some feedback, haven't heard from anyone else
- # [18:16] <dael> ChrisL: there had beed some other issues about compositing, but might need level 2 sooner
- # [18:16] <@glazou> s/beed/been
- # [18:16] <dael> sylvaing: seems reasonable
- # [18:16] <dael> ChrisL: I might have some comments, but I'll mail them in, I don't want to delay
- # [18:16] <dael> sylvaing: sure
- # [18:16] <hober> Zakim, aajj is me
- # [18:16] <Zakim> +hober; got it
- # [18:17] <dael> ..? I like what the spec doesn't, but I don't feel confident to provide meaningful feedback
- # [18:17] <dael> glazou: any objection?
- # [18:17] <@glazou> s/..?/florian
- # [18:17] <florian> s/the spec doesn't/the spec does/
- # [18:17] <MaRakow> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
- # [18:17] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
- # [18:17] <dael> glazou: no objection, people agree to publsh
- # [18:17] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish spec
- # [18:18] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish spec as LC
- # [18:18] <@glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0284.html
- # [18:18] <dael> Topic: Publish GCPM
- # [18:18] <ChrisL> s/spec/compositing and blending/
- # [18:18] <sgalineau> RESOLVED: publish CSS Compositing & Blending Level 1 as LC
- # [18:18] <dael> ...? This was from F2F, we had decided to split. This is the GCPM that we split and page flow
- # [18:18] <@glazou> s/..?/howcome
- # [18:18] <dael> ...? the page flow was considered complex enough to warrent own specification
- # [18:19] <dael> howcome: I think this is warrented. There are two new URLs that I sent in an e-mail
- # [18:19] <dael> howcome: I haven't changed anything in functionality, it's splitting what we agreed to
- # [18:19] * Joins: dino (~dino@public.cloak)
- # [18:19] <dael> howcome: there will be changes, but getting WD is important so it doesn't hang
- # [18:19] * dino zakim, passcode
- # [18:19] * Zakim I don't understand 'passcode', dino
- # [18:19] * dino zakim, passcode?
- # [18:19] <dael> ChrisL: The action you had to split and you've done it.
- # [18:19] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, dino
- # [18:20] <Zakim> + +1.408.881.aakk
- # [18:20] <dael> glazou: You sent your e-mail not too long ago, I had enough time to review, I agree to publis GCPM WD, another week to review floats
- # [18:20] <dael> howcome: We can give both one week for review
- # [18:20] * dino zakim, aakk is me
- # [18:20] * Zakim +dino; got it
- # [18:20] <dael> glazou: Fine. Other options?
- # [18:20] <@glazou> s/options/opinions
- # [18:20] <dael> howcome: That's perfect. I have an issue because I have changes I'd like, but I've held back to avoid rounds of editing
- # [18:21] <dael> howcome: I'D RATHER GET THEM OUT
- # [18:21] <dael> ChrisL: Sounds good
- # [18:21] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: I sent some comments on ml, but nothing blocking publication
- # [18:21] <dael> glazou: Everyone agrees?
- # [18:21] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
- # [18:21] <dael> glazou: We'll make a descision next week
- # [18:21] <@glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0515.html
- # [18:21] <dael> ACTION: everyone, review GCPM
- # [18:21] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [18:21] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
- # [18:21] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:21] * tantek thinks overflow:clip is a good idea per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0515.html
- # [18:21] <dael> Topic: Overfow: Clip
- # [18:21] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
- # [18:21] <Zakim> -jdaggett
- # [18:22] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
- # [18:22] <@glazou> ACTION: all, review GCPM an Page Floats
- # [18:22] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [18:22] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:22] <trackbot> Error finding 'all,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
- # [18:22] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: The title is wrong b/c had poste to coworkers
- # [18:22] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
- # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: one o the things we've been trying to do is find ways to denote bounderies
- # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: so we can do as much independant as possible
- # [18:22] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
- # [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: This is my proposal for overflow: clip so none of the children of the clipped elements can flow outside.
- # [18:23] <antonp> s/flow/paint/
- # [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: more important, it's so children can't paint outside clipped element
- # [18:24] <dbaron> TabAtkins: it would be a containing block for position:fixed and position:absolute
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: lets us more agressively work outside compositing
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: there's a few other bits that let us not worry
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: competely shuts down scrolling
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: we think this would end up helpings with optimization
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: authors can opt-in and layout is independant of outside doc
- # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: should I persue?
- # [18:25] <tantek> yes
- # [18:25] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
- # [18:25] <dael> ChrisL: You just want to clip inside the box so i you have fliters or drop shadow this can go with that
- # [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: so the elements own filters can extend past
- # [18:25] <dael> glazou: so the main effect is on scrolling
- # [18:25] <tantek> basically this is like overflow:hidden but a ban on any kind of scrolling, programmatic or otherwise.
- # [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: correct. we can be agressive about clipping whats on screen
- # [18:25] * ChrisL that wasn't me
- # [18:26] <dael> ...?we might have to work for detecting but scrolling seems necessary
- # [18:26] <@glazou> s/ChrisL/krit
- # [18:26] <@glazou> s/..?/florian
- # [18:26] <SimonSapin> s/...?/florian: /
- # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: even the abspo part is impt. because authors can use so we prefer a gar. fast pass
- # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: we don't like having mysterious connections fall down
- # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: this is how wemake it explicit that they can't do things to increase speed
- # [18:27] <dael> ...?
- # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: in so far as...it still does
- # [18:27] <stearns> s/?/krit: this only works when you know the size?/
- # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: you have to be fixed hight to a certain extent. even if you're autoheight, being able to agressively clip still worthwhile
- # [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: this gives you a ben. in unconstrained cases
- # [18:28] <tantek> agreed - even auto-height is very useful to clip without scrolling
- # [18:28] <dael> krit: I agree with you from my Opera experience
- # [18:28] <antonp> s/krit/florian/
- # [18:28] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:28] <@glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:28] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (61%), glazou (5%)
- # [18:28] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (20%), dino (60%)
- # [18:29] <@glazou> dael, florian has french accent, krit has german one :-)
- # [18:29] * dino I'm muted!
- # [18:29] <dael> florian: I agree with the problem and I think this would help. I hesitate with this feature targeting this thing as usual but fast
- # [18:29] * @plh haas to drop
- # [18:29] <Zakim> -Plh
- # [18:29] <@glazou> Zakim, unmute dino
- # [18:29] <Zakim> dino was not muted, glazou
- # [18:29] <dino> zakim, mute dino
- # [18:29] <Zakim> dino should now be muted
- # [18:29] * dino --- weird
- # [18:29] <dael> florian: This will do the same as things with fixed. That bothers me a bit, but I don't have a better idea
- # [18:29] * dino was muted locally
- # [18:29] <@glazou> lol
- # [18:29] <dael> ..? I would second with florian
- # [18:29] <antonp> s/fixed/hidden/
- # [18:29] <@glazou> dino, bad UI on your iPhone ? ;-)
- # [18:29] <Bert> q+ to say it sounds strange to have a feature that only serves implementers and doens't bring new functionality for designers.
- # [18:29] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
- # [18:29] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
- # [18:29] <dael> ..? I also work on scrolling and to me this looks weird
- # [18:30] <@glazou> s/..?/rossen
- # [18:30] <dael> ...? The first thing people will do is the start adding an overflow clip
- # [18:30] <antonp> florian: for most users, the new value is the same as 'hidden' - that bothers me because it boils down to "do what you were doing before, but faster"
- # [18:30] <@glazou> s/..?/rossen
- # [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: and everyone will try and use it
- # [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: and this really concerns me in general. adding features to help perf. is great
- # [18:31] <dael> Rossen_: adding a feature that has almost no user benefit to existing behaviour so some impl. might take advantage
- # [18:31] <dael> Rossen_: i think this is a little bit of a stretch
- # [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: if you were to add *overflow clip it would work, but break your page
- # [18:31] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aadd
- # [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: It would makes things faster, though
- # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: I dont think this is specific to Blink.
- # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: painting is expencive and being able to do less is a win for everyone
- # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: there's nothing specific to our archetecture.
- # [18:32] <dauwhe> s/expencive/expensive
- # [18:32] <@glazou> ack Bert
- # [18:32] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say it sounds strange to have a feature that only serves implementers and doens't bring new functionality for designers.
- # [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:32] <Bert> q-
- # [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:32] <dael> Bert: everyone said my pieces
- # [18:32] <dael> krit: the performance is in layout, not render
- # [18:33] <Bert> s/everyone/Rossen/
- # [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: this isn't realtaed to layout. There's no chance this will paint outside.
- # [18:33] <@glazou> s/realtaed/related
- # [18:33] <dael> krit: this woldn't have a huge impact on performance
- # [18:33] <antonp> TabAtkins: It's about painting, not layout
- # [18:34] <dael> ...? some things are layout, some are painting, some are inbetween
- # [18:34] <dauwhe> s/woldn't/wouldn't
- # [18:34] <@glazou> s/..?/florian
- # [18:34] <dael> florian: you're not in layout. You're not painting but perparing
- # [18:34] <@glazou> s/perparing/preparing
- # [18:34] <dael> florian: I see the concerns expressed and agree
- # [18:35] <dael> krit: to add to florian you're preparing layout while the paiting is waiting and that may not be true for archetecture
- # [18:35] <@glazou> s/krit/Rossen_
- # [18:35] <antonp> s/krit/Rossen
- # [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: this is about bring able to agressively prune invalidation cycles
- # [18:35] <dauwhe> s/paiting/painting
- # [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: and are on the page won't be painted over and this lets you be agressive
- # [18:35] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [18:35] <Zakim> -rhauck
- # [18:36] <dael> glazou: I think we're having two discussions
- # [18:36] <dael> glazou: we haven't agreed to have this somewhere in the spec
- # [18:36] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
- # [18:36] <dael> glazou: I think that having the full technical discussion isn't worth our time if we don't have it in the spec
- # [18:36] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aall
- # [18:36] <dael> krit: could you change this to similar to overflow: hidden so that it's used in conjunction
- # [18:37] <stearns> s/krit/florian/
- # [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: the clipping and no scrolling are closely related so it could be done
- # [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: overflow: hidden isn't strong enough in either way
- # [18:37] <antonp> florian: I'd prefer something that's orthogonal to overflow:hidden rather than which sort of replaces it
- # [18:37] <antonp> florian: or better put, "complementary to overflow:hidden"
- # [18:37] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:38] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
- # [18:38] <dael> florian: If you find a way to do that you propose to combine with overflow: hidden, it's a better addition
- # [18:38] <dael> ChrisL: I think one of the issues is that the authors will want to use this.
- # [18:38] <@glazou> s/ChrisL/antonp
- # [18:38] <tantek> I disagree - that seems better from a programmer / feature independence perspective, but another property is more complex for the author
- # [18:38] <dael> antonp: It becomes hard to educate how to make the decision. It would be better if it wasn't orthagonal.
- # [18:38] <tantek> the better/simpler solution is to just add a value to "overflow"
- # [18:39] <tantek> that is, I disagree with what Florian was minuted as saying.
- # [18:39] <dael> antonp: We need to be careful about how you teach web authors to use this so I agree with florian
- # [18:39] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure the solution by florian is right. It's a nice model conceptually
- # [18:39] * ChrisL ChrisL and antonp both have British accents
- # [18:39] <dael> glazou: from a web author it's more complex
- # [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: while antonp is right there are still use cases for overflow: hidden
- # [18:39] <tantek> what glazou said
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: for most cases it's what you'd want
- # [18:40] <dael> glazou: a lot of websites that are using hidden are using a work around
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: ...missed
- # [18:40] <tantek> it's small enough functionality that it's not worth denormalizing into separate property
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: You're either overpainting in the expectation that there might be a scroll or your first scroll will be ugly
- # [18:40] <dael> glazou: I don't wish to spend the hour on this
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: let's continue on the e-mails
- # [18:41] <dael> glazou: WG, do you agree to add this to spec and which one?
- # [18:41] <dbaron> dbaron^: I think you can probably optimize overflow:hidden on the assumption that there won't be scrolling and then deal with the iffy performance on the first scroll if it happens
- # [18:41] <dael> florian: I'm not strongly objecting, but I'd like TabAtkins to have a new way
- # [18:41] * sgalineau is not super comfy with using CSS to give low-level perf hints but happy to hear more
- # [18:41] <dael> glazou: to which spec do we add it?
- # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: we have an overflow spec
- # [18:42] <sgalineau> GCPM!
- # [18:42] <Zakim> - +1.832.797.aaff
- # [18:42] <sgalineau> oh wait we don't have that anymore
- # [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: the other option is display. or it is independant and placed later
- # [18:42] <TabAtkins> Whoops, didn't mean to leave the room.
- # [18:42] <dael> florian: I'd rather not display
- # [18:42] * TabAtkins drops mike.
- # [18:42] <dael> ...? I'd prefer the last and we'll decide later
- # [18:42] <florian> s/florian/ChrisL
- # [18:42] <TabAtkins> mic
- # [18:42] <dael> glazou: TabAtkins still there?
- # [18:42] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:42] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aamm
- # [18:42] <Rossen_> s/.../Rossen
- # [18:42] <@glazou> TabAtkins, ok for new ED of new document?
- # [18:42] <sgalineau> Tab is overflow:clipped
- # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm back
- # [18:43] <dael> glazou: are you okay for new ED for new doc
- # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: yes
- # [18:43] <dael> glazou: any obj?
- # [18:43] * ChrisL Tab is now known as Ta........(continued on page 2)
- # [18:43] <dael> RESOLVED: TabAtkins to put overflow: clip to new ED
- # [18:44] <@glazou> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
- # [18:44] <@glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0280.html
- # [18:44] <krit1> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-matrix-20130919/#attributes
- # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Zaim, aamm is me
- # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aamm is me
- # [18:44] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
- # [18:44] <Zakim> -Stearns
- # [18:44] <dael> krit: We had a discussion about the ... we use.
- # [18:44] <dael> krit: there was discussion we should use float again
- # [18:44] <dael> krit1: I restarted the discussion and it seemed no one objected to having double
- # [18:44] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:45] <Zakim> - +1.425.301.aahh
- # [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: We're fine with doubles
- # [18:45] <dael> glazou: and you're looking for agreement?
- # [18:45] <dael> krit1: I'd like a resolution
- # [18:45] <dael> glazou: thoughts? no opinion?
- # [18:45] <dael> glazou: no objections?
- # [18:46] <dael> RESOLVED: Use Table instead of float for matrix items
- # [18:46] <@glazou> s/Table/doubles
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> s/Table/double/
- # [18:46] <dael> krit1: next is to discuss with SimonSapin
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
- # [18:46] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
- # [18:46] <dbaron> s/SimonSapin/zcorpan/
- # [18:47] <dael> krit1: Is he on the call?
- # [18:47] <krit1> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/#the-dompointliteral-dictionary
- # [18:47] <dael> krit1: What i'd like to discuss is I've edited DOMpoint to the specification of DOMMatrix
- # [18:47] <dael> krit1: What I'd liek to add is general geometric specifications
- # [18:47] <dael> krit1: I'd like to join this with SVG WG to have geometric in one specifications
- # [18:47] <dael> glazou: I support that
- # [18:47] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
- # [18:48] <dael> glazou: none apperently
- # [18:48] <dael> krit1: I'd also like to have zcorpan here. So maybe next week
- # [18:48] <dael> glazou: That's why I didn't call it resolved. We'll wait for him
- # [18:48] <dael> glazou: defer to next week
- # [18:48] <dael> krit1: I'd like to move the other items to next week
- # [18:48] <dael> glazou: fine.
- # [18:49] <dael> Topic: BoxQuads
- # [18:49] <@glazou> s/BoxQuads/getBoxQuads
- # [18:49] <dael> ...?: I'm not prepared to discuss
- # [18:49] <dbaron> s/...?/dbaron/
- # [18:49] <dael> glazou: let's go to the last item
- # [18:49] <@glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0281.html
- # [18:49] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
- # [18:49] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
- # [18:49] <dael> Topic: device-CMYK
- # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Discussion is good on mailing list, all parties aren't here.
- # [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm confused so I want to spend the day working it out
- # [18:50] <dael> ChrisL: What's going on is that for many years now
- # [18:50] <dael> ChrisL: I've been trying to get normal industry standards on the web
- # [18:50] <dael> ChrisL: originally it was in a print spec then it moved to a ... spec
- # [18:50] <dael> ChrisL: then it got moved to SVG 2
- # [18:50] <dael> ChrisL: then people said why just for SVG, why not HTML too
- # [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: At Paris F2F we agree it would be part of CSS Color
- # [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: that's great, but Rick started commenting on mailing list
- # [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: his point was clear, no color management on the web
- # [18:51] <dbaron> s/Rick/Rik/
- # [18:51] <SimonSapin> q+
- # [18:51] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
- # [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: I'm not happy with it, we can have it in other places, but not HTML
- # [18:51] <dael> ...? I don't think that's his position
- # [18:51] <dael> ChrisL: I'm pleased it's not.
- # [18:52] <dael> krit1: I think he's just concerned that it's extemely complex to impl
- # [18:52] <dael> krit1: I think that's his concern
- # [18:52] <dino> zakim, unmute me
- # [18:52] <Zakim> dino should no longer be muted
- # [18:52] <dael> ChrisL: You don't deal with that by saying tough luck
- # [18:52] <dael> ChrisL: People should be able to do that
- # [18:52] <dael> ...? please explain color management?
- # [18:52] <florian> q+
- # [18:52] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, florian on the speaker queue
- # [18:52] <dino> q+
- # [18:52] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, florian, dino on the speaker queue
- # [18:52] <@glazou> ack SimonSapin
- # [18:52] * Zakim sees florian, dino on the speaker queue
- # [18:53] <dael> SimonSapin: I think part of the comfusion is that we have two different issues. One is color management. The othere is device CMYK
- # [18:53] <dael> ChrisL: I get the different, people are comfusing them
- # [18:53] <@glazou> s/comfusion/confusion
- # [18:53] * @glazou although I like "comfusion" :-)
- # [18:53] <dael> ChrisL: We need device CMYK. If you want to measure your printer we'll want 10% cyan etc. You don't want color management near that
- # [18:53] <dael> ChrisL: That's useful
- # [18:54] <dael> ChrisL: It use to be everything was done that way, not RGB. That's the old way which we've been away from.
- # [18:54] <dbaron> I'm not sure that "testing a printer" is an important use case we need to address.
- # [18:54] <dael> ChrisL: I don't want to go back to the 19802
- # [18:54] <dael> ChrisL: Adobe would have been the last company I would have thought to object
- # [18:54] <@glazou> s/19802/1980s
- # [18:54] <dael> ChrisL: They do solid color work. I'm astonished. I hope it's not the corp. position
- # [18:55] <@glazou> ack dino
- # [18:55] * Zakim sees florian on the speaker queue
- # [18:55] <dael> dino: What did ChrisL mean by color management? Is that spec. colors in a color space or entire doc or images w' color profile attached, etc
- # [18:55] <dael> ChrisL: What I mean is you say what color you want, measure it, get some color on output
- # [18:56] <dael> ChrisL: On the web responding to tagged images so they can be display correctly
- # [18:56] <dael> ChrisL: and also so you can mesh things up and not restricted to RGB box
- # [18:56] <dael> ChrisL: That's what I meant
- # [18:56] <dael> ChrisL: It also means we have places with clipping if you use RGB. If you instead use unbounded you don't have that issue
- # [18:56] <dael> ChrisL: There are benefits to that
- # [18:57] <dael> ChrisL: it's also more preception of space. There's lots of reason.
- # [18:57] <dael> ChrisL: It's to capture for display and share it with others
- # [18:57] <dael> dino: What your saying is people use a picture, want to preserve colors as close as poss
- # [18:57] <dael> ChrisL: yes
- # [18:57] <dael> dino: One of the reasons we don't do this is performance. Performance more imp. then acc. color mgmt
- # [18:58] * @glazou florian still on queue
- # [18:58] <dael> dino: Web it comes down to you plug in same color as on page
- # [18:58] <dael> ChrisL: I wouldn't call that color mgmt
- # [18:58] <dael> ChrisL: I'm not trying to force people, I'm trying to make an option
- # [18:58] <@glazou> ack florian
- # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:58] <dael> florian: a bit closer to spec we're trying to discuss
- # [18:58] <dael> florian: yes, devie CMYK is useful, but not main thing people want
- # [18:59] <dael> florian: what they want it real color mgmt
- # [18:59] <dael> florian: therefore, giving them this tempts them to do something
- # [18:59] <dael> ChrisL: that's what I wanted to say, thank you
- # [18:59] <dael> ChrisL: That's why Hakon put this in the spec
- # [18:59] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [18:59] <dael> florian: the 2nd thing is that the way i read it won't do what people want
- # [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: it always converts to RGB, but if browser knows it can use it
- # [19:00] <dael> ...? this is for people who want their colors explicitily not to be managed
- # [19:00] <dael> ...? if the author doesn't compose overlay we should leave it up to the browser.
- # [19:00] <dael> glazou: We're past the hour
- # [19:01] <dael> zakim, who is here?
- # [19:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, ??P8 (muted), glazou, [IPcaller], krit1, SimonSapin, jerenkrantz, SylvaIng, plinss, dbaron, antonp, Bert, dauwhe, c_palmer (muted), koji, [Adobe], ChrisL,
- # [19:01] <Zakim> ... hober, MaRakow, dino, +47.21.65.aall, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a]
- # [19:01] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
- # [19:01] <Zakim> On IRC I see emalasky, ChrisL, jet, Rossen_, dino, MaRakow, howcome, tantek, michou1, oyvind, koji, c_palmer, sgalineau, dauwhe, arronei_, krit1, florian, jerenkrantz, antonp,
- # [19:01] <Zakim> ... dael, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, Ms2ger, liam, teoli, michou
- # [19:01] * Bert finds it strange that we had correct colors in the browser on the Mac in 1996, with machines a 1000 times slower, and in 2013 it is considered too slow!?
- # [19:01] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [19:01] <dael> glazou: con't on the mailing list
- # [19:01] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -hober
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -dino
- # [19:01] <tantek> Bert, sounds worthy of a blog post. ;)
- # [19:01] <dael> glazou: thank you!
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [19:01] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aall
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -dauwhe
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -dbaron
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -c_palmer
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -krit1
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -antonp
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -koji
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -ChrisL
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -dael
- # [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
- # [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
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- # [19:02] <Zakim> -??P8
- # [19:02] * Bert was indeed praising Tantek's work :-)
- # [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, glazou, Plh, +49.341.263.2.aabb, florian, krit1, Stearns, SimonSapin, +1.212.318.aacc, jerenkrantz, +47.21.65.aadd, SylvaIng, plinss, dbaron,
- # [19:02] <Zakim> ... +93192aaee, Bert, antonp, [IPcaller], jdaggett, +1.832.797.aaff, dauwhe, koji, +1.415.832.aagg, rhauck, +1.425.301.aahh, c_palmer, [Adobe], +33.6.03.00.aaii, ChrisL,
- # [19:02] <Zakim> ... +1.619.846.aajj, hober, MaRakow, +1.408.881.aakk, dino, [Microsoft], +47.21.65.aall, +1.832.797.aamm, TabAtkins
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- # Session Close: Thu Sep 26 00:00:00 2013
The end :)