/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 02 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  17. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> stearns: "radii" CURSES!!!
  18. # [01:41] <stearns> muah ha ha
  19. # [01:41] <hober> sheesh. everyone knows it's radipodes
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  21. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> hober: Hah, awesome.
  22. # [01:42] <stearns> radipodes sound disturbingly delicious
  23. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> I guess that would describe any create whose legs are distributed radially around the body.
  24. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> s/create/creature/
  25. # [01:43] <hober> sounds like treknobabble to me. "reverse the polarity of the starboard radiopdes and channel the flow through the main deflector"
  26. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Also: goddam but "define:foo" queries are awesome now in Google.
  27. # [01:44] <hober> then again, everything sounds like treknobabble to me
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  36. # [03:21] <@plinss> TabAtkins: ping
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  181. # [17:40] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0068.html'
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  185. # [17:41] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-css-irc
  186. # [17:41] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  187. # [17:41] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
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  189. # [17:41] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  190. # [17:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  194. # [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  195. # [17:54] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  196. # [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
  197. # [17:55] <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
  198. # [17:55] <Zakim> +dael; got it
  199. # [17:56] <Zakim> +Stearns
  200. # [17:56] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
  201. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P37
  202. # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, ??P37 is me
  203. # [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  204. # [17:57] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
  205. # [17:57] <Zakim> + +49.341.263.2.aabb
  206. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is krit
  207. # [17:57] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  208. # [17:57] <krit1> thanks
  209. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  210. # [17:57] <Zakim> On the phone I see dauwhe, dael, Stearns, glazou, krit
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  217. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  218. # [17:59] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  219. # [17:59] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  220. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
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  222. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.425.216.aadd
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  225. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaee
  226. # [18:00] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
  227. # [18:00] <rhauck> Zakim, aaee is me
  228. # [18:00] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
  229. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +34.93.192.aaff
  230. # [18:00] <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
  231. # [18:00] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  232. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is israelh
  233. # [18:00] <Zakim> +israelh; got it
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  235. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is hober
  236. # [18:01] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  237. # [18:01] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) (bradk)
  238. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
  239. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, [Adobe] has michou
  240. # [18:02] <Zakim> +michou; got it
  241. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aagg
  242. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aagg is bkardell
  243. # [18:02] <Zakim> +bkardell; got it
  244. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  245. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P53
  246. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P53 is me
  247. # [18:03] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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  249. # [18:03] <glazou> Regrets: plinss, Bert, zcorpan , leaverou , glenn
  250. # [18:04] <Zakim> +BradK
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  252. # [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's get started
  253. # [18:05] <Zakim> -bkardell
  254. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: as usual, additions to adgenda?
  255. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: I saw one from Simon about elements
  256. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: One from Dirk
  257. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Correct?
  258. # [18:05] <Zakim> +bkardell
  259. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  260. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
  261. # [18:05] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
  262. # [18:05] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  263. # [18:05] <SimonSapin> s/elements/referring to elements/
  264. # [18:05] <Zakim> -bkardell
  265. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: We could have a short meeting without a lot on the radar
  266. # [18:05] * fantasai_ is now known as fantasai
  267. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: is Hakon on?
  268. # [18:06] <dael> ???: I don't think he said he'd be here so we should take it next time
  269. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> s/???/florian/
  270. # [18:06] <bkardell> sorry I am in an area with spotty cell signal, keep losing call
  271. # [18:06] <bkardell> I will follow via irc
  272. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aahh
  273. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: Well, we decided not to discuss without the editor and so I'm not willing to discuss w/o Hakon
  274. # [18:07] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  275. # [18:07] <Zakim> +fantasai
  276. # [18:07] <dael> ??: There's not much to discuss about GCPM so we could resolve for a WD
  277. # [18:07] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  278. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: we did in F2F
  279. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: just waiting for the doc to be ready
  280. # [18:07] <dael> florian: If it's done we can greenlight Hakon
  281. # [18:07] <stearns> s/??/stearns/
  282. # [18:07] <SimonSapin> s/??/astearns/ (… I think)
  283. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: remember, members decided to decide only if editor here
  284. # [18:07] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  285. # [18:08] <dael> astearns: It's not complecated, so we should be okay without. If it's complecated we need the author
  286. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: I agree.
  287. # [18:08] <stearns> s/astearns/florian/
  288. # [18:08] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  289. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Do people who made comments want to block?
  290. # [18:08] <stearns> (for the last comment)
  291. # [18:08] <dael> dkramer: I'm okay
  292. # [18:08] <dauwhe> s/dkramer/dauwhe
  293. # [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: I made comments, but I don't think are blocking WD
  294. # [18:08] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  295. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: any object with pub?
  296. # [18:09] <dael> resolved: New WD of GCPM
  297. # [18:09] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  298. # [18:09] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
  299. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: Given PageFloats discussion, I suggest we wait
  300. # [18:09] <dael> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
  301. # [18:10] <dael> Krit: I'd like to publish a new WD
  302. # [18:10] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
  303. # [18:10] <dael> krit: we combine into Geometry API
  304. # [18:10] <dael> krit: Me and Rik as co-editors
  305. # [18:10] <dael> krit: WG agree?
  306. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: No objection about co-editors
  307. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: I'd like to head about publishing new ED
  308. # [18:10] <dael> s/WD/ED
  309. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: I don't think you need permission for ED
  310. # [18:11] <dael> krit: Ok
  311. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> krit1: just ED at this point
  312. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Any object about co-editors?
  313. # [18:11] <dael> [silence]
  314. # [18:11] <dael> RESOLVED: krit and Rik as co-editors
  315. # [18:11] <dael> Topic: Shapes
  316. # [18:12] <dael> astearns: I asked for comments, there's on remaining
  317. # [18:12] <dael> astearns: one comment left about basic shape functions
  318. # [18:12] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  319. # [18:12] <dael> astears: I'd like to work through syntax and ask for LC next week
  320. # [18:12] <dael> glazou: Is this in refenece to Hakons?
  321. # [18:12] <dael> astearns: No, Tab and fantasai about taking commas out of functionsal notations
  322. # [18:13] <dael> astearns: also about if we need two about cicles when we have radial gradients
  323. # [18:13] <dael> ...:waiting to hear if would work for rectangle and polygon
  324. # [18:13] <dael> glazou: So defer to next week
  325. # [18:13] <dael> Topic: Elements
  326. # [18:13] <BradK_> Regarding GCPM, I hope more people can review this idea (not to block publication of working draft): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0086.html
  327. # [18:13] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  328. # [18:13] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  329. # [18:13] <dael> glazou: Can you paste URL?
  330. # [18:13] <bkardell> ? is there any good simple rule for when to comma/not?
  331. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0043.html
  332. # [18:14] <stearns> bkardell: there's a link to a principles wiki in fantasai's message (and one of my responses)
  333. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: We have two features that refer to elements
  334. # [18:14] <bkardell> not from a parser perspective but just in general
  335. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: This is elements in images 4
  336. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: And cross referenceing in GCPM
  337. # [18:14] <bkardell> stearns: thx - sorry, a little behind list
  338. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: Elements use an ID selector, GCPM uses a URL
  339. # [18:14] * tantek reviews the agenda
  340. # [18:14] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-gcpm/#cross-references
  341. # [18:15] <dael> SimonSapin: This is two mech. to do same thing, we should pick on
  342. # [18:15] <dael> s/on/one
  343. # [18:15] <fantasai> This has been an open issue for a while
  344. # [18:15] * krit1 tanktek no worries, CSS3 UI isn't on the agenda
  345. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: I understand wy URL in GCPM, b/c book can be a set of docs
  346. # [18:15] <tantek> krit1 - however the element/id selector thing may affect nav-* properties which are in CSS3-UI
  347. # [18:15] <dael> SimonSapin: URL can ref. to other documents, Hakon seems OK to not do that
  348. # [18:16] * tantek reaches for a 20th century piece of technology.
  349. # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: The thing with URLs, we need to defice how fragment mapped to element
  350. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  351. # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: This isn't same as HTML
  352. # [18:16] <MaRakow> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  353. # [18:16] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  354. # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: We need to deinfe or refer to something that defines
  355. # [18:16] <dauwhe> s/defice/define
  356. # [18:16] <dael> glazou: There's a prevision that the name shares same value space
  357. # [18:16] <dauwhe> s/deinfe/define
  358. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Tantek
  359. # [18:16] <dael> glazou: All browsers should do the same for most recent HTML
  360. # [18:17] <dael> glazou: In practice when you use frag. idnt in URL it ref. to one element if it's a name or arbitay element
  361. # [18:17] * krit1 tantek so we may need to go back to LC for CSS3 UI? :)
  362. # [18:17] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  363. # [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: And that's HTML?
  364. # [18:17] <dael> glazou: Yes
  365. # [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: Dow e want them to depend on HTML?
  366. # [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: Or do we need a def. that works for any doc type?
  367. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure I understand
  368. # [18:18] <tantek> krit1 - nav-* directional properties are implemented with test cases per the thread on www-style
  369. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: Frag. idnt points to one titem
  370. # [18:18] <dael> SimonSapin: As far as I know CSS can work on anyithing inc. HTML
  371. # [18:18] <dael> SimonSapin: Are we fine with changing that?
  372. # [18:18] <tantek> q+ to note that nav-* directional properties use just "#id" as value
  373. # [18:18] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  374. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: What the spec again that def. frag. idnt?
  375. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: Outside of CSS?
  376. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: Tere's a doc in the consortium space making the relationship
  377. # [18:19] * tantek refers to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#nav-dir
  378. # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: That's what I'm missing
  379. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: Since there's a potential solution w/o changing specs, we should keep this to the ML
  380. # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: That's fine
  381. # [18:20] <dael> tantek: Sorry to make more complex, there's a 3rd method is CSS UI
  382. # [18:20] <dael> tantek: Similar to element, but no element function
  383. # [18:20] <dael> tantek: up, down, etc all take values similar to hash ID
  384. # [18:20] <dael> tantek: Not only that, we have test cases and two impl.
  385. # [18:20] <dael> tantek: I thought I should point it out, but I don't have strong feeling on syntax
  386. # [18:21] <dael> tantek: But we should keep that in mind
  387. # [18:21] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
  388. # [18:21] <dael> tantek: There's real world content using it
  389. # [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: Is that in terms with selectors?
  390. # [18:21] <dael> ???: Compeltely inline
  391. # [18:22] <dael> glazou: I guess question is is hash a frag. ident?
  392. # [18:22] <florian> The <id> value consists of a ‘#’ character followed by an identifier, similar to a fragment identifier in a URL. It indicates the element to which the focus is navigated to in response to directional navigation input respective to the specific property.
  393. # [18:22] <dael> ???: The wording right now is frag. URL
  394. # [18:22] <glazou> s/???/tantek
  395. # [18:22] <dael> ???: It's weak wording
  396. # [18:22] <fantasai> If it was thought of as a url, it probably would have used url()
  397. # [18:22] <fantasai> with some limitations in prose
  398. # [18:22] <dael> glazou: So.
  399. # [18:22] <dael> tantek: It's imilar to frag. ID in URL
  400. # [18:23] <dael> tantek: Explanitory, not normative text
  401. # [18:23] <dael> ???: Is there a test to see which is used?
  402. # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes
  403. # [18:23] <glazou> s/???/tantek
  404. # [18:23] <dael> tantek: If you did that test with Nav and checked in impl.
  405. # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: Opera impl, not sure other
  406. # [18:24] <florian> s/SimonSapin/florian/
  407. # [18:24] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  408. # [18:24] <dael> tantek: Sounds like you could construct test with name and nav in Opera and see what happens
  409. # [18:24] <florian> Note that it is the old opera that supports that
  410. # [18:24] <dael> glazou: We have 2 using fragments, and 1 selector
  411. # [18:24] <dael> tantek: We're not sure
  412. # [18:24] <dael> tantek: If impl treat it like a selector we're okay
  413. # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: It's a bit undefined
  414. # [18:24] <dael> tantek: I can define it like the impl.
  415. # [18:24] <dael> glazou: So take back to L and wait for reports on test
  416. # [18:25] <florian> old opera = presto
  417. # [18:25] <dael> glazou: Okay SimonSapin, Tantek
  418. # [18:25] <dael> both: yes
  419. # [18:25] <tantek> q-
  420. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  421. # [18:25] <dael> Topic: Taskforce
  422. # [18:25] <dael> dschultz: We agreed to meet in Seattle same time as SVG
  423. # [18:25] <dael> ...:meet together on Wed?
  424. # [18:25] <dael> glazou: I think it would be useful
  425. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Yes
  426. # [18:26] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  427. # [18:26] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  428. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Not the whole day, btu a few hours
  429. # [18:26] * sgalineau Note: CSSWG currently booked for 1/27-1/29; FXTF would be on 1/29. SVG would be 1/29-1/31
  430. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Any other comments?
  431. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: That was a light adgenda and we exausted it
  432. # [18:26] <dael> ???: I won't be at next F2F
  433. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: Me neither
  434. # [18:26] <florian> s/???/florian
  435. # [18:26] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
  436. # [18:27] <dael> dbaron: Any update on Sunday mtg?
  437. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: I didn't hear back
  438. # [18:27] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  439. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: You saw forum, it's complex to contact hotel
  440. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: Not sure if we have a room, haven't heard a single word
  441. # [18:27] <rhauck> registration is also open for TestTWF for TPAC attendees
  442. # [18:27] <dael> dbaron: We're getting to where we need airline
  443. # [18:27] <dbaron> I'm not on the call, so that's not me talking
  444. # [18:28] <glazou> s/dbaron/SteveZ
  445. # [18:28] <florian> s/dbaron/SteveZ/
  446. # [18:28] <dael> ACTION: glazou, ping Bert to see if have reservation
  447. # [18:28] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  448. # [18:28] * RRSAgent records action 1
  449. # [18:28] <trackbot> Error finding 'glazou,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  450. # [18:28] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
  451. # [18:28] <dael> ACTION: glazou ping Bert to see if have reservation
  452. # [18:28] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  453. # [18:28] * RRSAgent records action 2
  454. # [18:28] <trackbot> Created ACTION-585 - Ping bert to see if have reservation [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-10-09].
  455. # [18:28] <rhauck> if you are planning on coming to TestTWF and haven't gotten your TPAC registration code, please contact me
  456. # [18:28] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
  457. # [18:28] <Zakim> -hober
  458. # [18:28] <dael> glazou: Thanks everyone
  459. # [18:28] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
  460. # [18:28] <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aahh
  461. # [18:28] <Zakim> -antonp
  462. # [18:28] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  463. # [18:28] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  464. # [18:28] <dael> zakim, who is here?
  465. # [18:28] <Zakim> -BradK
  466. # [18:28] <Zakim> -krit
  467. # [18:28] <Zakim> -rhauck
  468. # [18:28] <Zakim> -glazou
  469. # [18:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, Stearns, [IPcaller], israelh, SimonSapin, koji, fantasai, MaRakow, Tantek (muted)
  470. # [18:28] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
  471. # [18:28] <Zakim> On IRC I see jet, jerenkrantz, darktears, oyvind, tantek, MaRakow, cabanier, sgalineau, koji, BradK_, Ms2ger, dbaron, antonp, michou, rhauck, SteveZ, israelh, florian, krit1, dael,
  472. # [18:28] <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dauwhe, lmclister, teoli, glenn, plh, slightlyoff
  473. # [18:28] <Zakim> -Stearns
  474. # [18:28] <Zakim> -israelh
  475. # [18:28] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  476. # [18:28] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  477. # [18:28] <Zakim> -koji
  478. # [18:28] <Zakim> -fantasai
  479. # [18:28] <Zakim> -Tantek
  480. # [18:28] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aaii
  481. # [18:29] <Zakim> -dael
  482. # [18:29] * Parts: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) (florian)
  483. # [18:29] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  484. # [18:29] <dael> [Meeting ended]
  485. # [18:29] <Zakim> - +1.212.318.aaii
  486. # [18:29] * Parts: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  487. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> rhauck: where is that registration?
  488. # [18:29] <jerenkrantz> wow. guess i missed the short meeting. =)
  489. # [18:29] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  490. # [18:29] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  491. # [18:29] <Zakim> Attendees were dauwhe, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, Stearns, glazou, +49.341.263.2.aabb, krit, florian, +1.619.846.aacc, +1.425.216.aadd, +1.415.832.aaee, rhauck, +34.93.192.aaff,
  492. # [18:29] <Zakim> ... antonp, israelh, hober, michou, +1.520.280.aagg, bkardell, SteveZ, SimonSapin, BradK, [IPcaller], koji, +1.206.675.aahh, fantasai, MaRakow, Tantek, +1.212.318.aaii
  493. # [18:29] <rhauck> SimonSapin: i'll respond to your mail shortly
  494. # [18:29] <SimonSapin> ok
  495. # [18:29] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  496. # [18:30] * Quits: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("")
  497. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> A half-hour meeting? Could have fixed some CSS2.1 issues :)
  498. # [18:30] <tantek> Ms2ger - anything that needed telcon discussion in particular? ;)
  499. # [18:30] <glazou> Ms2ger, if nobody calls for it and we have none of the 2.1 experts on the call, no
  500. # [18:31] <fantasai> This is what happens when I'm not around, I guess. ;)
  501. # [18:31] <jet> fantasai: we're lurker club :)
  502. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> fantasai, that's an interesting way of not being around you're practicing there :)
  503. # [18:32] * Quits: BradK_ (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
  504. # [18:32] <fantasai> aside from the shapes review comments, which I promised Alan, I haven't been around between midnight last Monday and now
  505. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Good :)
  506. # [18:35] <glazou> fantasai, not you only, many people
  507. # [18:36] <stearns> fantasai: thanks for the comments and today's response. I think I agree, so rest up a bit while I sell the change to my team and make the edits
  508. # [18:38] <krit1> stearns: … sell for a high price I hope
  509. # [18:38] <stearns> krit1: you're one of the people I need to convince. What do you think of matching gradient arguments?
  510. # [18:40] <fantasai> :)
  511. # [18:42] <glazou> krit1, ping
  512. # [18:43] <glazou> krit1, PING
  513. # [18:43] * fantasai notes to glazou that capital letters won't make the IRC notifications any louder
  514. # [18:43] <glazou> let me try ;-p
  515. # [18:44] <glazou> I could probably set my IRC client to play a sound if capital PING is thrown
  516. # [18:44] <krit1> glazou: PONG?
  517. # [18:44] <glazou> krit1, I misunderstood your request today
  518. # [18:44] <glazou> you asked for a new ED
  519. # [18:44] <krit1> yes
  520. # [18:44] <glazou> and that does indeed require WG approval
  521. # [18:44] <glazou> I was mistaken, sorry for that
  522. # [18:45] <krit1> so do we need to take it up next week again?
  523. # [18:45] <glazou> so let me correct things by email and ask if there is any objection
  524. # [18:45] <krit1> ok
  525. # [18:45] <glazou> if there is no objection, we'll consider resolved
  526. # [18:45] <glazou> ok for you?
  527. # [18:45] <krit1> glazou: yes, that is fine for me
  528. # [18:45] <glazou> thanks krit1 and sorry for the mishmash
  529. # [18:45] <glazou> and thanks sgalineau for the heads up
  530. # [18:46] <krit1> fantasai: stearns: you are not seriously suggesting another gradient like syntax, are you?
  531. # [18:46] * krit1 needs to check proposals on mailing list
  532. # [18:46] <stearns> stearns: not gradient-like, exactly the same arguments to make a circle with a gradient as a basic shape
  533. # [18:46] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/mid/524C47E3.7020905@inkedblade.net
  534. # [18:47] <krit1> stearns: ahhhh
  535. # [18:47] <stearns> krit1: so circle( <size> [ at <position> ]? )
  536. # [18:47] <krit1> stearns: people already have problems to remember the syntax on gradients,
  537. # [18:47] <krit1> stearns: why torture them more?
  538. # [18:48] <stearns> krit1: isn't adding yet another syntax more torture?
  539. # [18:48] <krit1> fantasai: sorry, but especially rectangle( <size> [ at <position> ]? ) looks a lot worst
  540. # [18:48] <krit1> stearns: isn't that we are discussing right now?
  541. # [18:49] <krit1> stearns: adding yet another syntax?
  542. # [18:49] <stearns> no, same syntax in a different function
  543. # [18:49] <krit1> <size> at <position>? I doubt that anyone understands this decision
  544. # [18:49] <SimonSapin> tantek: do you have a link to the css-ui tests?
  545. # [18:49] <fantasai> anyone who uses gradients will already need to know it
  546. # [18:49] <krit1> people usually start with position and add the size
  547. # [18:50] <krit1> fantasai: but that is the point, isn't it? people are complaining about the gradient syntax
  548. # [18:50] <krit1> fantasai: I think I stated multiple times before, but this was one of the worst syntax decision we made
  549. # [18:50] <krit1> (well actually without me)
  550. # [18:51] <glazou> krit1, email sent to w3c-css-wg
  551. # [18:51] <krit1> glazou: thanks!
  552. # [18:53] <fantasai> krit1: Size is optional, will default to 100%, so you can start with that if you want
  553. # [18:53] <fantasai> s/that/the position/
  554. # [18:54] <krit1> rectangle(at <position> <size>)?
  555. # [18:54] <fantasai> krit1: I think long sets of arbitrarily-ordered arguments are difficult, personally,
  556. # [18:54] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
  557. # [18:54] <krit1> fantasai: this is wasting time on typing
  558. # [18:55] <krit1> fantasai: if you write a lot of code, you will appreciate every char that you don't need to type
  559. # [18:55] <michou> plinss: ping? :)
  560. # [18:55] <krit1> fantasai: ditto for the transfer of the data
  561. # [18:55] <fantasai> krit1: which is why more optional arguments is better
  562. # [18:55] <@plinss> pong
  563. # [18:55] <fantasai> krit1: previously you'd have to specify position in order to make a centered circle
  564. # [18:55] <fantasai> most people wnat their circle centered, so why specify the position?
  565. # [18:56] <fantasai> just specify the size
  566. # [18:56] <fantasai> etc.
  567. # [18:56] <fantasai> with the gradient syntax, all parts are optional
  568. # [18:56] <fantasai> more function words to type may be more annoying than shorter syntaxes, but having to give default arguments explicitly is worse
  569. # [18:57] <krit1> fantasai: then circle(r, cx, cy) or without commas, but adding another unnecessary keyword just to annoy authors?
  570. # [18:57] <fantasai> two commas = one two-letter word :)
  571. # [18:57] <krit1> yeah, so remove the commas, no problem with that
  572. # [18:57] <fantasai> consistency with gradients is worth it
  573. # [18:57] <stearns> (for those who like gradients) :)
  574. # [18:58] <fantasai> for anyone who wants to learn CSS
  575. # [18:58] <krit1> fantasai: it would have been worth it if gradient was following everyone else (as it was i the first place)
  576. # [18:58] <fantasai> gradient syntax was inscrutable in the first place, that's why we changed it
  577. # [18:59] <krit1> fantasai: without improvement… not web author remembers how to create a gradient (which is not just 2 color stops from top to bottom)
  578. # [18:59] <krit1> fantasai: most people use generators nowadays… so where do you learn cSS?
  579. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> What's CSS?
  580. # [18:59] <fantasai> linear-gradient(color1, color2) ?
  581. # [18:59] <krit1> Ms2ger: something that gets replaced by Canvas
  582. # [18:59] <fantasai> how is that hard
  583. # [18:59] <krit1> to quote my comment: (which is not just 2 color stops from top to bottom)
  584. # [18:59] <stearns> I personally am not a fan of the gradient syntax, but I am a fan of consistency
  585. # [19:00] <krit1> stearns: so just follow transforms?
  586. # [19:00] <fantasai> transforms doesn't have shapes
  587. # [19:00] <krit1> stearns: everyone understands how to use translate
  588. # [19:00] <krit1> stearns: or transform-origin even if it does not have an 'at'
  589. # [19:01] <krit1> fantasai: transforms does have functions and that is what we are discussing
  590. # [19:02] <krit1> (I could have lived without commas on these functions though)
  591. # [19:03] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/functional-notation#transforms was the idea for transforms...
  592. # [19:03] <fantasai> we didn't change them due to compat
  593. # [19:04] <fantasai> koji: I'll work on the character / grapheme cluster thing today
  594. # [19:05] <fantasai> koji: I just need to come up with some appropriate wordsmithing.
  595. # [19:06] <krit1> fantasai: and I would have objected to the propposal for matrix and matrix3d
  596. # [19:06] <fantasai> why? why do you want to have 16 values representing a 4x4 matrix with nothing to help you keep count of which item in which row?
  597. # [19:06] <fantasai> it's impossible to read
  598. # [19:11] <glazou> I am not a fan of the gradients syntax either ; painful to deal with in my editor
  599. # [19:11] <SimonSapin> I’m trying to come up with a test case, but… how do I even use nav-up and friends?
  600. # [19:13] <krit1> fantasai: the grouping doesn't make sense, or say the chosen group doesn't
  601. # [19:13] <glazou> SimonSapin, buy a google tv :-p
  602. # [19:13] <krit1> fantasai: beside that matrix3d itself was a mistake IMO
  603. # [19:13] <SimonSapin> I’m told opera presto is supposed to support these
  604. # [19:14] <glazou> yes
  605. # [19:14] <glazou> implemented it ages ago
  606. # [19:17] <SimonSapin> but not on desktop?
  607. # [19:17] <glazou> no idea, ask florian or howcome ?
  608. # [19:18] <SimonSapin> glazou, did we talk about a test suite for CSS-UI during the call? It seems to be "None yet"
  609. # [19:19] <glazou> don't remember sorry
  610. # [19:19] <glazou> tantek's on IRC, qsk him directly
  611. # [19:19] <glazou> grrr en-US kbd
  612. # [19:19] <glazou> ask
  613. # [19:20] <SimonSapin> tantek: ?
  614. # [19:21] <oyvind> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-ui/
  615. # [19:21] <glazou> ah! thanks oyvind
  616. # [19:21] <tantek> yes, thanks oyvind!
  617. # [19:21] <oyvind> no problem
  618. # [19:22] <oyvind> I haven't tried those myself, but "directional navigation" on presto desktop is shift+arrow
  619. # [19:25] * Quits: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  620. # [19:27] <tantek> SimonSapin - we don't have a test suite for CSS3-UI yet, though we have a bunch of tests (including the Opera submission above)
  621. # [19:27] <tantek> much of the properties are tested briefly in the spec itself
  622. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> thanks oyvind, shift+arrow is what I was missing
  623. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> so it appears to be ID selectors, at least in Presto
  624. # [19:28] <glazou> does not surprise me
  625. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> <a id=foo> it targeted but not <a name=foo>
  626. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> I suspect that anyone who dislikes the gradient syntax holds in their head some idealized simple syntax that only does simple things, and chooses not to remember just how horrible and unreadable the syntax was when we tried to do everything without the hinting keywords.
  627. # [19:29] <glazou> I never said the syntax was way better before :-)
  628. # [19:29] <glazou> and I never said a nicer syntax isn't pure utopu
  629. # [19:29] <glazou> utopy even
  630. # [19:31] <tantek> SimonSapin, is there existing specific "ID selectors" wording details that I can add to CSS3-UI?
  631. # [19:31] <tantek> the intent in CSS3-UI was to support id=foo but not name=foo, so this is a good confirmation
  632. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> tantek: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images-4/#element-notation
  633. # [19:32] <SimonSapin> tantek: "like URL fragment" is misleading, then
  634. # [19:32] <SimonSapin> I’ll write to www-style
  635. # [19:32] <glazou> dinner time here, bye people
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  637. # [19:33] <SimonSapin> tantek: Images 4 says "ID selector [SELECT]", which is effectively the same as '#' + ident
  638. # [19:33] <SimonSapin> in terms of syntax
  639. # [19:34] <SimonSapin> but selectors also define matched elements, so that’s easiest
  640. # [19:35] <SimonSapin> tantek: "It indicates the first element (in tree order) that matches the selector.", and maybe define as well what happens where there is no such element
  641. # [19:35] <tantek> SimonSapin, agreed, re: "like URL fragment" is misleading
  642. # [19:36] <tantek> and yes - your additional suggestions make sense too
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  645. # [19:39] <tantek> SimonSapin, FYI I'm tracking CSS3-UI issues here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui
  646. # [19:39] <tantek> e.g. just added this: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-28
  647. # [19:40] <tantek> it sounds like you have additional proposed prose edits to nav-* directional navigation properties 9.2.2 - I'll wait for you to write those up and then we can capture that as Issue 29.
  648. # [19:59] <tantek> SimonSapin, thanks for writing this up: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0096.html
  649. # [19:59] <tantek> one typo I think, you wrote: "This one doesn’t indicating that Presto’s implementation indeed is closer to ID selectors than URL fragments."
  650. # [19:59] <SimonSapin> tantek: also writing up a suggested edit
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  652. # [20:00] <tantek> but I think you meant: "This one does indicate that Presto’s implementation indeed is closer to ID selectors than URL fragments."
  653. # [20:00] <tantek> thanks much!
  654. # [20:01] <SimonSapin> missing a comma
  655. # [20:01] <tantek> oh! or a period
  656. # [20:03] <SimonSapin> all sent to www-style
  657. # [20:06] <SimonSapin> the point is that <a name=foo> does *not* work with nav-right
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  663. # [20:46] <tantek> SimonSapin - looks good. have captured it here: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-29
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  697. # [23:38] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what’s idref?
  698. # [23:38] <SimonSapin> I should ask that on the list
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The end :)