/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-10-23 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  82. # [17:30] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  83. # [17:30] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
  84. # [17:30] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  85. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  86. # [17:30] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0582.html'
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  94. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  95. # [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss
  96. # [17:59] <glazou> plinss, unable to call in : SIP and phone line both down...
  97. # [17:59] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  98. # [17:59] <glazou> will follow on IRC
  99. # [17:59] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  100. # [17:59] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [Mozilla] has me
  101. # [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named '[Mozilla]'
  102. # [18:00] * Joins: dbaron_ (~dbaron@public.cloak)
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  104. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dael
  105. # [18:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  106. # [18:01] <Zakim> +padenot
  107. # [18:01] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  108. # [18:01] <dbaron_> Zakim, padenot is Mozilla_Paris
  109. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Mozilla_Paris; got it
  110. # [18:01] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  111. # [18:01] <dbaron_> Zakim, Mozilla_Paris is [Mozilla_Paris]
  112. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Mozilla_Paris]; got it
  113. # [18:01] <dbaron_> Zakim, [Mozilla_Paris] has dbaron, SimonSapin, jdaggett
  114. # [18:01] <Zakim> +dbaron, SimonSapin, jdaggett; got it
  115. # [18:01] * Ms2ger suspects a big attendance from Mozilla this week
  116. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  117. # [18:01] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  118. # [18:01] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  119. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn
  120. # [18:02] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("bbl")
  121. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> hum, does Zakim think we’re one person with two commas in the name?
  122. # [18:02] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  123. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Stearns
  124. # [18:03] <dael> ScribeNick: Dael
  125. # [18:03] <Zakim> +hober
  126. # [18:03] * glazou is unable to call in :-(
  127. # [18:03] <glazou> sorry guys
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  130. # [18:04] * dbaron_ Zakim, who is on the phone?
  131. # [18:04] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, dael, [Mozilla_Paris], MaRakow, glenn, Stearns, hober
  132. # [18:04] * Zakim [Mozilla_Paris] has dbaron, SimonSapin, jdaggett
  133. # [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, code
  134. # [18:04] * dbaron_ is now known as dbaron
  135. # [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', antonp
  136. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  137. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  138. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  139. # [18:04] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  140. # [18:04] <jdaggett> big voice rossen
  141. # [18:04] * Joins: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak)
  142. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  143. # [18:04] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  144. # [18:04] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  145. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  146. # [18:04] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  147. # [18:04] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
  148. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  149. # [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  150. # [18:05] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
  151. # [18:05] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  152. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  153. # [18:05] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  154. # [18:05] * Bert will be a bit late
  155. # [18:05] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  156. # [18:05] <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy
  157. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
  158. # [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
  159. # [18:05] * Zakim sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [IPcaller]
  160. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  161. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
  162. # [18:05] <jdaggett> zakim darling, who the heck is making all the friggin noise?
  163. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
  164. # [18:05] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (4%), [Microsoft] (8%), fantasai (4%)
  165. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr
  166. # [18:06] <michou1> Zakim, Adobe has me
  167. # [18:06] <Zakim> +michou1; got it
  168. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P58
  169. # [18:06] * Joins: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak)
  170. # [18:06] <leif> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  171. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, dael, [Mozilla_Paris], MaRakow, glenn, Stearns, hober, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], koji, SGalineau, fantasai, [Adobe], smfr, ??P58
  172. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Mozilla_Paris] has dbaron, SimonSapin, jdaggett
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
  174. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Adobe] has michou1
  175. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +93550aaaa
  176. # [18:06] <israelh> Microsoft has me
  177. # [18:06] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P58
  178. # [18:06] <Zakim> +leif; got it
  179. # [18:07] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
  180. # [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  181. # [18:07] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
  182. # [18:07] * jdaggett dbaron is trying to figure out how to deal with two meter tall french windows...
  183. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  184. # [18:07] <dael> plinss: Extra items?
  185. # [18:07] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  186. # [18:07] <dael> ???: I have one
  187. # [18:07] <jdaggett> s/???/rossen/
  188. # [18:07] <sgalineau> s/???/Rossen
  189. # [18:07] <dael> ...: I just wanted to make proposal for new mod of snappoint
  190. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0595.html
  191. # [18:08] <dbaron> s/mod/module/
  192. # [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: I sent out an e-mail and I'm unfotunatly far away
  193. # [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: I was going to ask if we can discuss and I need to leave call quickly
  194. # [18:08] * jdaggett man ukranian phones are LOUD
  195. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
  196. # [18:08] <Rossen_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0595.html
  197. # [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: So this is a spec that we discussed, a couple of times in past
  198. # [18:08] <dael> Rossen_: Some of those discussions might have been hallway or offtopic
  199. # [18:08] <dael>
  200. # [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: They were basically having to do with us proposing behaviour of snappoint
  201. # [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: We've been shipping as part of platform
  202. # [18:09] <dbaron> s/platform/our platform since IE10/
  203. # [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: The two editors are matt rakow and jacob ?
  204. # [18:09] <dael> Rossen_: They were working on other stuff and finally were able to draft a spec
  205. # [18:09] <sgalineau> Jacob Rossi
  206. # [18:09] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-snappoints/
  207. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: Which we uploaded as an unofficial draft to above link
  208. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: As any new proposal we wanted to get WG's buy in
  209. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: I know that there was some discussion on www-style from Tab
  210. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: This is something that we're just starting and want to start
  211. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: It is very rough and def. things missing and to improve
  212. # [18:10] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  213. # [18:10] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  214. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Plh
  215. # [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: In order to get rolling we want to see how WG feels
  216. # [18:11] <dael> dbaron: I think it's great to have in draft, would like to see more of...I'd like to see additional stuff
  217. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  218. # [18:11] <dael> dbaron: In part. along lines of what RoK proposed
  219. # [18:11] <sgalineau> +1 to snap to elements
  220. # [18:11] <dael> dbaron: Having to specifiy manually in sep. property is hard
  221. # [18:11] * glazou is ok for an ED pending other members are ok, IP-wise ; question : in scope for next charter ?
  222. # [18:11] <sgalineau> or element edges
  223. # [18:11] <antonp> s/RoK/roc/
  224. # [18:11] <dael> dbaron: Current req. authors to specify edges when they're often created by elemnet to point out edges
  225. # [18:11] <sgalineau> +1 to new draft + dbaron/roc's feedback
  226. # [18:12] <dael> dbaron: It's greak to see this draft, but I don't think we're set on details of that proposal.
  227. # [18:12] <fantasai> +1 to dbaron's proposal
  228. # [18:12] <dael> dbaron: I'd like that addressed in draft
  229. # [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: Would you like us to start with that as an issue?
  230. # [18:12] <dael> fantasai: I'd like Roc's proposal before we first propose
  231. # [18:12] <glazou> plinss, in scope for next charter?
  232. # [18:12] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  233. # [18:12] <dbaron> s/first proposed/first public working draft/
  234. # [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: WE just have this as a WD, we're sorry about originally putting in as ED
  235. # [18:13] <michou1> s/WD/unofficial draft
  236. # [18:13] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
  237. # [18:13] <glazou> s/WD/UD
  238. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: Once we're okayed to start as ED, we can work on all these issues before we do first public
  239. # [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I don't think this needs to be an issue, just put in the information
  240. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: I guess my q was unclear
  241. # [18:13] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  242. # [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: Is this something we should try and put in unofficial, or should we put in before it's ready for first public
  243. # [18:13] <sgalineau> thinks this can just be an issue in the ED
  244. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
  245. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I don't think it matters, that's just the next step
  246. # [18:14] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it matters either
  247. # [18:14] <jerenkrantz> Zakim, Bloomberg has me
  248. # [18:14] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
  249. # [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: I think we can work on that. no problem
  250. # [18:14] <dael> plinss: Any obj to accepting it as ED?
  251. # [18:14] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept work on this mod as an ED
  252. # [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: Thank you everyone, now I hve to jump off
  253. # [18:14] <glazou> please, ask about charter scope
  254. # [18:14] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  255. # [18:15] <dael> Topis: TPAC
  256. # [18:15] <dbaron> can't hear peter over heavy breathing
  257. # [18:15] <dael> plinss: We need more items on wiki
  258. # [18:15] <dael> plinss: Snappoints should be in next charter
  259. # [18:15] <glazou> thanks
  260. # [18:15] <dael> plinss: So far we haven't heard about TPAC on sunday
  261. # [18:15] <dael> plinss: If we think folks are attending and avail on sunday, we'll still try
  262. # [18:16] <dael> ??: Can e figure out from adobe someone to set up a meeting room and not use W3C?
  263. # [18:16] <dael> ??: Seems like someone has thrown this over the wall
  264. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> s/??/jdaggett/
  265. # [18:16] <dael> plinss: We've been trying, but TPAC needs to set up space
  266. # [18:16] <dael> plinss: I can ping adobe
  267. # [18:16] <dael> jdaggett: It seems like we need to corner someone
  268. # [18:16] <plh> q+
  269. # [18:16] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  270. # [18:16] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  271. # [18:17] <dael> jdaggett: We're trying to get a sunday space, adobe has been able to get as space on Sat. Let's figure outt heir magic
  272. # [18:17] <dael> ???: I don't think it was just adobe, I think tantek helped
  273. # [18:17] <dbaron> s/tantek/tencent/
  274. # [18:17] <plinss> s/???/sylvain/
  275. # [18:17] <sgalineau> s/???/sylvaing
  276. # [18:17] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  277. # [18:17] <dael> plh: We also had them to deal with hotel. It might be too later at this point, worth a try
  278. # [18:17] <dael> plh: I know ?? is super busy and might not be ableto
  279. # [18:18] <dael> jdaggett: It was 2 or 3 months ago, never answered
  280. # [18:18] <dael> plinss: They just said they'd see what they can do
  281. # [18:18] <dael> plh: I'll try and find out more
  282. # [18:18] <dael> jdaggett: This si frustrating b/c people are spending money and time and AC meeting overlaps with us. I'm just a bit upset
  283. # [18:18] <dael> plh: I understand. I appologize. I'll get as much info as poss. in next 24h
  284. # [18:19] <dael> plh: If not, we might need another way
  285. # [18:19] <dael> jdaggett: What I find wierd is we always meet sunday and always have to wrangle that room
  286. # [18:19] <Zakim> +Bert
  287. # [18:19] <dael> plh: To be honest, I was talking with Jeff and he said everything thought three days was too long
  288. # [18:19] <dael> plh: I'll look intot he matter
  289. # [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Wait, who said 3 days was too long?
  290. # [18:20] <dael> plh: That was old feedback
  291. # [18:20] <dael> jdaggett: After last year glazou said he wouldn't meet sunday, but he's not coming
  292. # [18:20] <glazou> right
  293. # [18:20] <dael> plinss: I think that was having so many things back to back, but he was the only one
  294. # [18:20] <jdaggett> s/jdaggett/dbaron/
  295. # [18:20] <dael> plinss: That wasn't a group decision
  296. # [18:20] <plh> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/#GroupSchedule
  297. # [18:20] <glazou> correct
  298. # [18:20] <dael> plh: I see on schedule it's there, that we wantt o meet on Sunday
  299. # [18:20] <dael> plh: So I'm going to check
  300. # [18:20] <dael> plinss: Ok
  301. # [18:20] <dael> plinss: Thank you
  302. # [18:21] <dael> plinss: Other reminder, DLS change happens
  303. # [18:21] <dael> plinss: Be careful about when to call in
  304. # [18:21] <dael> dbaron: In particular, next week call is an hour earlier for euopeans
  305. # [18:21] <dael> Topic: Style attr
  306. # [18:21] <dael> plinss: People, remind your reps to vote positive on that
  307. # [18:21] <dael> Topic: Named Flows
  308. # [18:22] <dael> stearns: I'd like to encourage people to respond on list so discuss as much before tpac
  309. # [18:22] <dael> ...: I saw dbaron responded, thanks
  310. # [18:22] <dael> ...: Anyone want to talk now?
  311. # [18:22] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
  312. # [18:22] <Zakim> +??P7
  313. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, ??P& is me
  314. # [18:22] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '??P&'
  315. # [18:22] <dael> Topic: Outline-Style: auto
  316. # [18:23] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P7 is glazou
  317. # [18:23] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  318. # [18:23] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  319. # [18:23] <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as glazou, glazou
  320. # [18:23] <glazou> lol
  321. # [18:23] <dael> plinss: Anyone that can talk about this?
  322. # [18:23] <dael> plinss: We got feedback from web platform folks?
  323. # [18:23] <dael> dbaron: I resp. on list, they understood my explination better than spec
  324. # [18:23] <dael> dbaron: I don't see what's different about them, though
  325. # [18:23] <dael> plinss: Anything esle we can do here?
  326. # [18:23] <dael> plinss: Or wait for feedback from them?
  327. # [18:24] <dael> dbaron: I don't...It was just one e-mail.
  328. # [18:24] <dael> dbaron: I think it can be normal issue process for spe
  329. # [18:24] <dael> Topic: fragmentation and full screen
  330. # [18:24] <dael> ??: I michou on call?
  331. # [18:24] <plinss> s/??/stearns/
  332. # [18:24] <glazou> s/??/stearns
  333. # [18:24] <dael> michou: The main q is, right now the full screen spec that's being offered
  334. # [18:25] <dael> michou: Desc. how things should be when there is full screen
  335. # [18:25] <dael> michou: However, there is no mention about how things that are frag. should behave in full screen
  336. # [18:25] <dael> michou: My q is, first, if this should be specified in the spec, which should it be
  337. # [18:25] <dael> michou: More general q is when there are these interactions between spec not even in this work
  338. # [18:25] * sgalineau is it just fragmented content of even just the interaction of overflowing content with full screen?
  339. # [18:25] <dael> michou: which should take care of including the behaviour
  340. # [18:25] <dbaron> I think it might be useful to include at least some of the editors of fullscreen in a discussion about fullscreen.
  341. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: The spec takes care of 2. aspects of things
  342. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: New models should define frag. on their own
  343. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This should desc different classes of layout and sizing constraints across pages
  344. # [18:26] <sgalineau> if I make an overflow:scroll element full screen and it doesn't fit, what happens?
  345. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: Fullscreen might be diff
  346. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: If you're printing full screen, you should jsut part, not full doc.
  347. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This full screen doc is up front, so your int. in there, not rest
  348. # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Makes sense you only print that, that's one poss.
  349. # [18:27] <dael> michou: That was my con. too
  350. # [18:27] <dael> michou: When you're in full screen, you disregard the frag.
  351. # [18:27] <dael> michou: q remains, where should that be?
  352. # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Full screen spec
  353. # [18:27] <dael> michou: Okay
  354. # [18:27] <dael> michou: stearns: anything else?
  355. # [18:27] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  356. # [18:27] <dael> michou: I think we should provide FB in mailing list
  357. # [18:28] <dael> s/michou/stearns
  358. # [18:28] <dael> michou: I'll continue this on full screen ML
  359. # [18:28] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
  360. # [18:28] <dael> michou: Not from me
  361. # [18:28] <dael> Topic: setProperty and !important
  362. # [18:28] <dael> plinss: There was discussion on ML about this. Anyone to talk about it?
  363. # [18:29] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  364. # [18:29] <dael> dbaron: I can give in if impl are willing to change
  365. # [18:29] <dbaron> s/impl/other implementations/
  366. # [18:29] <dael> plinss: Is tehre anyone familiar with the obj?
  367. # [18:29] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  368. # [18:29] <dael> dbaron: The issue we discussed at Paris F2F
  369. # [18:29] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  370. # [18:29] <dael> dbaron: The issue was how setproperty deals with exisiting declaration for that property for various settings and the setproperty having !important
  371. # [18:29] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  372. # [18:29] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  373. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: So the q is, is IE or Webkit willing to change behaiour
  374. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
  375. # [18:30] <dael> israelh: I'm curious, there was also in past about if !important needs change for animations
  376. # [18:30] <dael> israelh: So is there a larger set that deals with !important that needs to be addressed
  377. # [18:31] <dael> dbaron: I don't think tthey're related
  378. # [18:31] <dael> israelh: I think it's self contained
  379. # [18:31] <dael> ???: I think we should wait for Simon Peters
  380. # [18:31] <dbaron> s/???/glenn/
  381. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: So defer?
  382. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Maybe at TPAC?
  383. # [18:31] <leif> Zakim, unmute me
  384. # [18:31] <Zakim> leif should no longer be muted
  385. # [18:32] <dael> ...: I think simon peters is coming to TPAC
  386. # [18:32] <dael> ...: Maybe not CSS
  387. # [18:32] <dael> fantasai: If he's there, I think we can pull him in
  388. # [18:32] <leif> s/.../leif
  389. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> s/Simon Peters/Simon Pieters (zcorpan)/
  390. # [18:32] <dael> plinss: So defer?
  391. # [18:32] <dael> Topic: devicepixelratio behavior
  392. # [18:32] <dael> plinss: An old thread getting life
  393. # [18:33] <dael> plinss: It's about how it should behave when zoom is applied
  394. # [18:33] <dael> plinss: Anyone want to talk about it?
  395. # [18:33] <dael> smfr: We feel strongly in webkit it should only rep the properties of hardware display
  396. # [18:33] <dael> smfr: It shouldn't change with zooming
  397. # [18:33] <dael> smfr: Other browsers want one to change, but it should have another name
  398. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That makes sense to me
  399. # [18:34] <dael> dbaron: What is the use case...people are going to write media quiries with assumptions that won't hold
  400. # [18:34] <dael> smfr: One of our goals is to retain...to keep page zooming under user control
  401. # [18:34] <dael> smfr: Not give authors too much control
  402. # [18:34] <dael> smfr: We don't want pages to rearrange when user zooms
  403. # [18:35] <dael> ???: We also have when an author is trying to change things, when it is small, the user zoom makes it smaller
  404. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: There's a half dozon wasy for authors to do this
  405. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: This doesn't seem like the thing people will use to rearrnage content
  406. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: Will use for low-level qualtity issues
  407. # [18:35] <plinss> s/???/hober/
  408. # [18:35] <glazou> s/dozon wasy/dozen ways
  409. # [18:35] <dael> ???; That sounds like an arguement for making it constant
  410. # [18:36] <plinss> s/???/hober/
  411. # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: We're only talking about desktop, not moble
  412. # [18:36] <dael> smfr: I think our position holds in that case. when we introduced retna, the reason was people could provide high res assets on those devices
  413. # [18:36] <Bert> I think there are at least three kinds of zooming: the magnifier metaphor (doesn't cause any re-layout, or it defeats the purpose); set medium font size (causes new layout); simulate bigger/smaller pixels (probably does new layout?)
  414. # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: Problem is it's a general toola nd people will use for other things
  415. # [18:37] <dael> dbaron: I'm concerned b/c everyone else seemed to like other direction and they're not on phone
  416. # [18:37] <dael> ???: In IE what we're doing is searching ration is setting. When users are doing higher res, we want to allow that, but we want to mask anything in zoom with websites
  417. # [18:37] <sgalineau> s/???/MaRakow
  418. # [18:37] <dael> dbaron: Pinchzoom doesn't effect this
  419. # [18:37] <Zakim> -glazou
  420. # [18:37] <dael> dbaron: It's a little funny to define
  421. # [18:38] <dael> ???: When it comes to desktop zoom, the viewport changes etc. so this arguement doesn't aplly
  422. # [18:38] <sgalineau> s/???/florian
  423. # [18:38] <dael> smfr: In safari there's 3 zoom, inc text size, make pixals biiger
  424. # [18:38] <dael> smfr: And aplly a transform in retna view, when you use 2 fingrs on track pad
  425. # [18:38] <dael> florian: I was refering to classic
  426. # [18:39] <dael> ??: For this I wouldn't mind pixal changing
  427. # [18:39] <dael> dbaron: I think we're talking about changing it for zoom where width is changing
  428. # [18:39] <Zakim> +??P7
  429. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> s/??/florian/
  430. # [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  431. # [18:39] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  432. # [18:39] <dael> dbaron: If you ctl+ and you zoom in a 1000 pxl wide
  433. # [18:39] <Zakim> -glazou
  434. # [18:39] <dael> dbaron: Then your width is 667 pixals
  435. # [18:39] <Zakim> +??P7
  436. # [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  437. # [18:40] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  438. # [18:40] <dael> dbaron: In those cases, where the width hanges when you zoom is when we change the device ratio
  439. # [18:40] * Joins: abucur (~Adium@public.cloak)
  440. # [18:40] <dael> smfr: If zooming change the width it changes, if it doesn't change width it doesn't change ratio
  441. # [18:40] <dbaron> s/smfr/florian/
  442. # [18:40] <SimonSapin> +1 florian
  443. # [18:40] <dael> ???: Given the confusion and that authors can use other options to change
  444. # [18:41] * fantasai would like to request WD for Writing Modes, given we can't publish LC until after TPAC at the earliest
  445. # [18:41] <sgalineau> s/???/florian
  446. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> MQ 'width' times 'resolution' should be constant on a given device, IMO
  447. # [18:41] <dael> florian: With changing or not changing in diff. types of zoom, why is it confusing. Some zooms alter view port, some don't
  448. # [18:41] <dael> florian: If it changes the view port, it should change
  449. # [18:41] <dael> ???: It should always reflect relationship between CSS pic rules
  450. # [18:42] <dael> ...: That means every type of zoom should change
  451. # [18:42] <plinss> s/???/smfr/
  452. # [18:42] <dael> florian: I can see an agrument for that
  453. # [18:42] <dael> florian: pinch zoom is asking please don't change the page, I just want to get closer
  454. # [18:42] <dael> florian: There's no expectation of change
  455. # [18:42] <antonp> s/With .... why is it confusing./'width' .... is not confusing. So why is device-pixel-ratio doing a similar thing confusing?/
  456. # [18:42] <dael> ???: I do what to see it at a higher resolution
  457. # [18:42] * sgalineau doesn't like the idea of a *device* pixel ratio changing. That makes little sense. Do the device* MQ properties change?
  458. # [18:42] <plh> q+ to confirm Sunday CSS meeting
  459. # [18:42] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  460. # [18:42] <dael> plinss: I think there's a media quiry that will accept that
  461. # [18:42] <astearns> s/???/plinss/
  462. # [18:43] * sgalineau wonders if we're talking about a csspixelratio property
  463. # [18:43] <dael> plinss: If I've zoomed to where one pixal is taking my scree, I want it to change
  464. # [18:43] <dael> florian: That slows it down significantly.
  465. # [18:43] <dael> plinss: I understand. I'm saying it can be addressed
  466. # [18:43] <dael> plinss: I can accept divicepixalratio doesn't change
  467. # [18:43] <SimonSapin> sgalineau, my understanding is that’s it’s a ratio between the two. When one of them changes the ratio changes
  468. # [18:43] <dael> plinss: I want something that does
  469. # [18:43] <dael> plh: That's what i suggested on IRC
  470. # [18:44] <astearns> s/plh/sgalineau/
  471. # [18:44] <dael> plh: I wonder if CSS pixal ratio property that's distinct would fix it
  472. # [18:44] <Bert> q+ to say yes, higher resolution on magnification, but only because not all available resolution in the fonts & images was used yet before.
  473. # [18:44] * Zakim sees plh, Bert on the speaker queue
  474. # [18:44] <plh> q- later
  475. # [18:44] * Zakim sees Bert, plh on the speaker queue
  476. # [18:44] <dael> ??: I think that's fine. It should be named to avoid confusion
  477. # [18:44] <hober> s/??/hober/
  478. # [18:44] <dael> plh: They will most likely take the one that works in the case they thought of, but break in another case
  479. # [18:44] <plinss> s/plh/florian/
  480. # [18:44] <florian> s/plh/florian/
  481. # [18:45] <dael> ???: I think we want a different propety that seperates device pixals and CSS pixals
  482. # [18:45] <dael> ...: This is what I want for pinch and this is what I want for persistant
  483. # [18:45] <dael> florian: To address the earlier point, I think users expect thigns
  484. # [18:46] <dael> ???: I think where we want authors to distinguish is where users distinguish
  485. # [18:46] <dael> florian: That's not what pinchzoom is for
  486. # [18:46] <dael> ???; That's not what pinch zoom is for
  487. # [18:46] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
  488. # [18:46] <dael> florian: If you have multi-res image and browser switches, that's fine, but doens't allow author to change query
  489. # [18:46] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (82%), MaRakow (4%), fantasai (27%)
  490. # [18:46] <dael> florian: That provides high end definitlion
  491. # [18:47] <dael> florian: Having a media query that triggers from pinch zoom allows authors to re layout aribitary
  492. # [18:47] <dael> florian: That's no good
  493. # [18:47] <dael> florian: Re rendering is fine from rule
  494. # [18:47] <dael> florian: arbitary is not fine
  495. # [18:47] <dael> ???: I can't think of many scenarios for temporary zoom
  496. # [18:48] <dael> ...: One thing I can think of is temprary assets
  497. # [18:48] <dael> florian: And if we go through media query, arbetary is what you get
  498. # [18:48] <glenn> who is ???
  499. # [18:48] <dael> ...: I agree. You wouldn't want it to stack with zoom, it would be a sep. multiplier
  500. # [18:48] <dael> florian: Media query...is fine to change in type of zooming that changes view point
  501. # [18:49] <MaRakow> s/???/MaRakow
  502. # [18:49] <hober> q?
  503. # [18:49] * Zakim sees Bert, plh on the speaker queue
  504. # [18:49] <SimonSapin> s/view point/viewport/
  505. # [18:49] <dael> plinss: Bert
  506. # [18:49] <hober> q+
  507. # [18:49] * Zakim sees Bert, plh, hober on the speaker queue
  508. # [18:49] <plinss> ack bert
  509. # [18:49] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say yes, higher resolution on magnification, but only because not all available resolution in the fonts & images was used yet before.
  510. # [18:49] <plh> q- later
  511. # [18:49] * Zakim sees plh, hober on the speaker queue
  512. # [18:49] * Zakim sees hober, plh on the speaker queue
  513. # [18:49] <dael> Bert: I guess florian said it, I agree the magnification is in the browser
  514. # [18:49] <dael> Bert: It doesn't expect the substituation
  515. # [18:49] <dael> Bert: We don't have to specify in media quiries
  516. # [18:49] <dael> Bert: This type of zoom is outside CSS
  517. # [18:50] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  518. # [18:50] <plinss> ack hober
  519. # [18:50] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  520. # [18:50] <dael> hober: With all this int. in def. devicepixalratio
  521. # [18:50] <dael> hober: We should add to media quiries 4
  522. # [18:50] <dael> hober: an actual def. would be nice
  523. # [18:50] <dael> hober: In the past people have opposed, but this is a half fix that needs to be addressed
  524. # [18:50] <dbaron> I agree we should pave the cowpath at this point.
  525. # [18:51] <dael> florian: how do you propose...these two things have different syntax and you can pick?
  526. # [18:51] <dael> hober: Personally, i'd drop resolution arguement, but I'd lose
  527. # [18:51] <dael> hober: We need to describe that they do different thigns
  528. # [18:51] <SimonSapin> s/argument/media query/
  529. # [18:51] * dbaron thinks "half fix" was not what hober said, but doesn't remember what he did
  530. # [18:51] <dael> florian: I don't want to be diplomatic. Resolution was first, maybe we should syntasize that one
  531. # [18:52] <dael> florian: that's a sep. question
  532. # [18:52] * fantasai thinks florian needs to correct the above
  533. # [18:52] <dael> florian: The behavior and the name should be disc. independantly
  534. # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: how many impl do we have of devicepixalratio
  535. # [18:52] <dael> florian: It's in presto, webkit perhaps
  536. # [18:53] <hober> s/int./interest/
  537. # [18:53] <dbaron> +Gecko
  538. # [18:53] * Zakim wonders where Gecko is
  539. # [18:53] <dael> florian: At the same time, all impl we have are prefixed
  540. # [18:53] <hober> s/We should add to/We should add device-pixel-ratio to/
  541. # [18:53] <dael> dbaron: I believe it's unprefixed in gecko
  542. # [18:53] <dael> plinss: Hearing agreement we should standardize
  543. # [18:53] <hober> s/half fix/cow path/
  544. # [18:53] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
  545. # [18:53] <dael> smfr: By this you mean?
  546. # [18:53] <dael> plinss: The name for one
  547. # [18:53] <smfr> s/smfr/florian
  548. # [18:54] <dael> florian: If we have one thing with a prefix, we should standardize. If not, I'm not sure we should if we're going to migrate
  549. # [18:54] <dael> fantasai: What about a webkit impl?
  550. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Does WebKit implement 'resolution'?
  551. # [18:54] <dael> florian: I think it was also int. to not that in media 3, we tested for existant, but not behavior
  552. # [18:54] <dael> florian: It's possible many have it, but don't treat it the same
  553. # [18:55] <fantasai> smfr^: I think Apple turns it off
  554. # [18:55] <dael> ???: So maybe we should go back
  555. # [18:55] <fantasai> s/???/florian/
  556. # [18:55] <Zakim> -glazou
  557. # [18:55] <fantasai> s/back/go pave the cowpath/
  558. # [18:55] <dael> plinss: Sounds like agreement to add it to media 4, not sure on how
  559. # [18:55] <dael> florian: I'm not sure what to address because not everyone has same syntax
  560. # [18:55] <dael> smfr: I think several impt accept a ratio as the value for media query
  561. # [18:56] <smfr> s/smfr/florian
  562. # [18:56] <dael> fantasai: I'm thinking both ways make sense
  563. # [18:56] <dael> florian: It's also in syntax
  564. # [18:56] <dael> florian: We agree what syntax should be
  565. # [18:56] <dael> dbaron: This is widely used enough, it will end up being webkit if we fiddle too much
  566. # [18:56] <dael> plinss: I think it's fine to add extra syntax and feature, but not break existing
  567. # [18:57] <dbaron> s/webkit/-webkit-device-pixel-ratio in all browsers/
  568. # [18:57] <Zakim> +??P4
  569. # [18:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  570. # [18:57] <dael> florian: I don't think anything has changed since we talked and decided other way
  571. # [18:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  572. # [18:57] <dael> florian: What do we do with resolutions?
  573. # [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
  574. # [18:57] <glazou> grrrr
  575. # [18:57] <dael> florian: Do we link properties together?
  576. # [18:57] <Zakim> +??P4
  577. # [18:57] <dael> plinss: Fine if the behavior are identical
  578. # [18:57] <dael> florian: I'd like to see if people are using resolution in the wild
  579. # [18:58] <dael> florian: If no one uses it, let's kill it
  580. # [18:58] <dael> dbaron: It has value from accepting multiple units
  581. # [18:58] <dael> florian: I'll add both it alias between to
  582. # [18:58] <dael> florian: I'll fine a blog post that describes syntax
  583. # [18:58] <dael> plinss: Still q about behavior under zzoom.
  584. # [18:58] <dael> plinss: Fairly stron optionins it should change
  585. # [18:58] <dael> plinss: Webkit still oppose?
  586. # [18:58] <dael> smfr: Yes
  587. # [18:59] <dael> plinss: Something you're willing to change?
  588. # [18:59] <smfr> s/smfr/hober
  589. # [18:59] <dael> hober: I think it would conf. authors if we change
  590. # [18:59] <dael> florian: If authors are swapping low and high res, it won't be awfully confusion
  591. # [18:59] <dael> florian: If they break it, it's b/c they shouldn't be doing it
  592. # [19:00] <dael> plinss: We're running out of time. Ho to move forward?
  593. # [19:00] <astearns> I think we need to hear from PLH before the call ends
  594. # [19:00] <dael> plinss: If we don't standardize behviour, we can't standarize
  595. # [19:00] <dael> plinss: plh, you still on que?
  596. # [19:00] <dael> plh: yes, but others made points
  597. # [19:00] * fantasai plinss, can we get a resolution to publish writing modes WD, since LC is not possible before TPAC?
  598. # [19:00] <astearns> s/others made points/on another point
  599. # [19:01] <dael> florian: I think using media queries here is wrong
  600. # [19:01] <plh> s/others made point/on a different point/
  601. # [19:01] <dael> florian: I'm not sure how to convice anyone that's unconvinced
  602. # [19:01] <dael> hober: You're forgetting border width
  603. # [19:01] <dael> hober: Media quiry is a natural way to do half width
  604. # [19:01] <dael> plinss: Disucss on ML and TPAC?
  605. # [19:01] <fantasai> s/half width/half width border-width/
  606. # [19:01] <glazou> sound so loud!!!
  607. # [19:01] <dael> plh: I can conf. that you can have a room on Sunday
  608. # [19:01] * jdaggett yay!
  609. # [19:01] * dauwhe excellent!
  610. # [19:01] <dael> plh: Same number on Monday/Tuesday?
  611. # [19:02] <dael> plh: Confirmation just arrived Monday or Tuesday, so sorry
  612. # [19:02] <SteveZ> I will not be there on Sunday due to a conflict
  613. # [19:02] <dael> Topic: Writing Modes
  614. # [19:02] <plh> s/Monday or Tuesday/yesterday/
  615. # [19:02] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can get to LC, so can I pub a WD?
  616. # [19:02] * dbaron would guess that one or two people have travel plans that preclude Sunday by this point
  617. # [19:02] <dael> ???; As long as that's marked as an issue
  618. # [19:02] <jdaggett> s/???/jdaggett/
  619. # [19:02] <sgalineau> s/???/jdaggett
  620. # [19:02] <dael> RESOLVED: Pub another WD of Writing Modes
  621. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
  622. # [19:02] <Zakim> -hober
  623. # [19:02] <Zakim> -glenn
  624. # [19:02] <dael> plinss: Thanks everyone
  625. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  626. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  627. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  628. # [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
  629. # [19:03] <jdaggett> as long as the Tr fallback issue is marked as an issue
  630. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Stearns
  631. # [19:03] <Zakim> -??P4
  632. # [19:03] <dael> [Meeting Ened]
  633. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  634. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  635. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
  636. # [19:03] <Zakim> -leif
  637. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  638. # [19:03] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  639. # [19:03] <dael> s/ened/ended
  640. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  641. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
  642. # [19:03] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  643. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dael
  644. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Plh
  645. # [19:03] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  646. # [19:03] <Zakim> -koji
  647. # [19:03] * Parts: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
  648. # [19:04] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
  649. # [19:04] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  650. # [19:04] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  651. # [19:05] <Zakim> -antonp
  652. # [19:06] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
  653. # [19:08] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  654. # [19:08] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  655. # [19:10] * Quits: michou1 (~mibalan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  656. # [19:10] * Parts: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak) (leif)
  657. # [19:10] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Mozilla_Paris], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  658. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  659. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, dbaron, SimonSapin, jdaggett, MaRakow, glenn, Stearns, hober, SGalineau, Rossen_, koji, fantasai, smfr, michou1, +93550aaaa, leif, antonp, dauwhe, Plh,
  660. # [19:10] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, jerenkrantz, Bert, glazou, florian
  661. # [19:11] <dbaron> boy, I hung up the call along with everyone else
  662. # [19:11] <dbaron> I'm worried about what that says about the phone system
  663. # [19:12] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  664. # [19:15] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  665. # [19:23] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  666. # [19:32] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  667. # [19:41] * Quits: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  668. # [19:48] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  669. # [19:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Your preprocessor makes invalid HTML whenever there's a term inside an existing <a> :(
  670. # [19:50] * fantasai hates the fact that trying to publish with Bikeshed invariably means fixing errors in the output for one reason or another
  671. # [19:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You're also doing a double-replacement of URLs in the previous links section, so that you get <a href="<a href="..."
  672. # [19:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can you like, *run a validator* on some bikeshed outputafter you check in changes?
  673. # [20:00] <fantasai> Some indentation on the output would be nice, too...
  674. # [20:00] * fantasai could find errors easier that way :)
  675. # [20:06] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  676. # [21:07] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  677. # [21:07] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  678. # [21:23] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  679. # [21:30] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  680. # [21:31] <SimonSapin> fantasai: I ended up doing some manual fixes on Bikeshed’s output for publishing Syntax
  681. # [21:35] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
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  703. # Session Close: Thu Oct 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)