/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-11-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 01 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  42. # [05:49] <krit> TabAtkins: fantasai: Is the line-width thing something that we could bring up at TPAC? I still believe that we should have a max-width property for accessibility reasons
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  53. # [06:46] <TabAtkins> krit: Yeah, we should. The lack of max-width is *terrible* for readability.
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  56. # [06:57] <heycam> yes please. every time I request publication from the webmaster I'm admonished for having left in (accidentally) the max-width rule...
  57. # [06:57] <heycam> I have a feeling last I heard from ij was that allowing max-width was gated on a larger redesign :\
  58. # [07:00] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  59. # [07:23] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: That's completely bullshit. The max-width works fine with the current design.
  60. # [07:24] <TabAtkins> They're just lying to avoid having to do it, because the pub folks don't personally like the max-width.
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  64. # [07:56] <krit> heycam|away: The custom sentence is a “should”, not sure which technical difficulties the CSS WG has excuse, but it seemed to work :)
  65. # [07:57] <krit> as excuse
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  75. # [09:31] <fantasai> krit: You could ask IJ about putting it into tr.css
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  77. # [09:32] <fantasai> krit: Then they can't complain that it's inconsistent
  78. # [09:32] <fantasai> krit: It'll be on all of the specs
  79. # [09:32] * fantasai actually isn't 100% sure that's the name of the style sheet, but it's 1:30am and not caring atm
  80. # [09:32] <Ms2ger> Good morning, fantasai :)
  81. # [09:34] <fantasai> 'morning Ms2ger :)
  82. # [09:34] * fantasai is about to run out of battery
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  84. # [09:39] <krit> fantasai: run out of battery on your laptop or brain (sleep mode soon)? :)
  85. # [09:39] <fantasai> heh
  86. # [09:39] <fantasai> krit: laptop
  87. # [09:39] <fantasai> krit: I'm really good at staying awake
  88. # [09:40] <fantasai> krit: even when it's totally inappropriate
  89. # [09:40] <krit> fantasai: :)
  90. # [09:40] <fantasai> krit: like now :)
  91. # [09:40] <krit> fantasai: where can I suggest changes to TR stylesheet?
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  93. # [09:40] <fantasai> spec-prod
  94. # [09:40] <fantasai> CC Ian Jacobs
  95. # [09:40] <krit> fantasai: I guess countless people did it before me? :D
  96. # [09:40] <fantasai> oh, rewriting the whole thing is greatly desired
  97. # [09:41] <fantasai> but I think that's a rather large project
  98. # [09:41] <fantasai> adding max-width might be worth trying though
  99. # [09:41] <krit> fantasai: well, Vincent tried it at some point, with rather less success
  100. # [09:41] <krit> fantasai: agree
  101. # [09:41] <fantasai> I think redesigning the styles needs to happen after fixing up the mess that is the boilerplate
  102. # [09:41] <krit> fantasai: redesign is problematic because there are always people complaining
  103. # [09:42] <fantasai> well, Vincent also tried to do it without getting consensus on what the *goal* of the design was
  104. # [09:42] <fantasai> if people can at least agree on that
  105. # [09:42] <fantasai> then, the designer has a better chance of getting somewhere people like :)
  106. # [09:42] <krit> fantasai: hm, partly true. He tried to get designers and writing expert in one boat and let them design a specification style
  107. # [09:43] <fantasai> need a spec-editing expert
  108. # [09:43] <fantasai> writer won't do
  109. # [09:43] <fantasai> specs are different in their styling needs
  110. # [09:43] <krit> fantasai: agree
  111. # [09:43] <fantasai> I went around at TPAC last year and got a list of what people wanted the style to look like
  112. # [09:43] <fantasai> and the design Vincent tried was pretty far away from that
  113. # [09:44] <fantasai> look like / feel like
  114. # [09:44] <krit> fantasai: right, but asking spec authors is not a good idea either
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  116. # [09:44] <fantasai> krit: For how it should feel? Sure it is.
  117. # [09:44] <fantasai> krit: Asking them how to accomplish it is not so reasonable
  118. # [09:44] <fantasai> :)
  119. # [09:44] <fantasai> they're not experts in that
  120. # [09:45] <krit> fantasai: The perspective should be more from the people reading the spec, not writing it
  121. # [09:45] <fantasai> You need both
  122. # [09:45] <fantasai> people who write specs tend to be high-volume users of them, too
  123. # [09:45] <krit> fantasai: both sounds like a good compromise though :)
  124. # [09:45] <fantasai> if the style doesn't work for the editors, it's not going to be adopted
  125. # [09:45] <fantasai> because it's impractical for a key audience
  126. # [09:46] <fantasai> for example, Vincent's style sheet wasn't very scannable
  127. # [09:47] <krit> fantasai: it missed contrast criterias on examples either. I think he didn’t see it as done but as a work in progress
  128. # [09:47] <krit> fantasai: as a way to start, rather then a the solution
  129. # [09:48] <fantasai> laptop died
  130. # [09:48] <fantasai> think that means bedtime
  131. # [09:48] <krit> :)
  132. # [09:48] <krit> night!
  133. # [09:48] * fantasai away
  134. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, any reason to make bikeshed updates Member-only?
  135. # [11:02] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: maybe w3c-css-wg gets more attention from members. But this could be cross-posted
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  156. # [16:16] <SimonSapin> plinss: is there a reason pushing to dev.w3.org/csswg through Mercurial is slow?
  157. # [16:20] <SimonSapin> It takes about a minute for me
  158. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: plz review http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#serialization
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  160. # [16:36] <SimonSapin> So on Tuesday I will announce a LCWD and ask people to not look at it, but instead review the ED which already has additional fixes.
  161. # [16:37] <krit> S SimonSapin: Every push will rebuild all specs with Bikeshed as far as I understood.
  162. # [16:40] <SimonSapin> this needs some caching
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  176. # [18:00] <krit> SimonSapin: I guess the idea is that you do not push often enough so that you would care
  177. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> krit: I can deal with it, but I sometimes want to link to a section of what I just pushed
  178. # [18:02] <krit> SimonSapin: yeah
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  183. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: No reason, except that I didn't think it's of general interest to people that follow www-style.
  184. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> I could, for example, cross-post to spec-prod or something.
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  191. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I think we can express that the roundtripping requirement is:
  192. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Given a CSS document A, parse(A) == parse(serialize(parse(A)))
  193. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> And/or serialize(parse(A)) == serialize(parse(serialize(parse(A))))
  194. # [19:02] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I test the former in code
  195. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> kk
  196. # [19:02] <SimonSapin> I wrote parse(serialize(T)) == T for parsed data structures T in the spec, that seemed simpler
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  200. # [19:16] <plinss> SimonSapin: yeah, the repo hook runs a script that mirrors dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg to dev.w3.org/csswg and that does regenerate spec with bikeshed (but only specs that don't already have a generated version)
  201. # [19:16] <plinss> I wanted that script to be asynchronous, but I got some pushback
  202. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I guess the "except for consecutive whitespace" exception is because " /**/ /**/ " will parse to three <whitespace-token>s, serialize as " ", then parse as a single <whitespace-token>?
  203. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> plinss: Ah, that explains why the slowdown happened recently.
  204. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> I often just cancel the operation. :/
  205. # [19:18] <plinss> TabAtkins, that works too, the push already happened
  206. # [19:19] <plinss> maybe at TPAC I can talk someone into fixing that, alternatively, I can allow pushing at hg.csswg.org/drafts and have that do an async push to dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg
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  208. # [19:22] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: right
  209. # [19:22] <SimonSapin> should I add an example?
  210. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Nah, it's fine.
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  216. # [20:04] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/4378d6173cd9 why remove the table styling?
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  219. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Because I shifted it to using the standard class=data styling, which is just as effective.
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  232. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: em dash handling is now pushed in Bikeshed, and I've switched Grid to use the new syntax.
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  237. # [23:43] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: how about keeping the smaller font size so that the table fits in the width?
  238. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Sure.
  239. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> It fits for my font, but it's really tight, so I see how it might overflow on other systems.
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  241. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Oh god I can't regex today worth a crap
  242. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Goddam features that require regexing over the HTML source pre-parsing. >_<
  243. # Session Close: Sat Nov 02 00:00:00 2013

The end :)