/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-11-11 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Nov 11 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:00] <astearns> TabAtkins: so figure that part out and then we can compare the solutions. It sounded like there were some other nice bits to naming and referring to canvases in Dirk's proposal
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# [01:23] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yeah, now that we have MapLike it's easy to define. I'll work on that tonight.
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# [02:03] <dauwhe_> regrets for this morning, as I'm at Digital Publishing Interest Group Meeting
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# [02:04] <TabAtkins> Anti-regrets for me; I'm actually available today.
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# [02:05] <dbaron> RRSAgent, bye
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-css-actions.rdf :
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> ACTION: glazou, ping Bert to see if have reservation [1]
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-css-irc#T16-28-44
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> ACTION: glazou ping Bert to see if have reservation [2]
# [02:05] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/10/02-css-irc#T16-29-07
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: krit to write up canvas for css4 images [3]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/10-css-irc#T02-03-54
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: hober and matt to write a proposed resolution to resolve the proposal about device resolution (using unambiguous terms) [4]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/10-css-irc#T02-35-35
# [02:06] * dbaron is trying to get a log on the correct day now
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: peter to work on shepherd to make it produce indexes (including selectors) for a "snapshot" or live index [5]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/10-css-irc#T07-28-10
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bert to create wiki page to list tests needed for errata, ppl can sign up to work on them [6]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/10-css-irc#T08-51-28
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rossen and fantasai to note that in the spec [7]
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/10-css-irc#T09-37-28
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# [02:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-irc
# [02:06] * dbaron notes we do NOT need to use "this meeting spans midnight"
# [02:06] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [02:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
# [02:07] <dbaron> note that there was a little bit of today's pre-meeting stuff in 10-css-irc
# [02:08] <dbaron> TabAtkins, audio is probably going to be painful, since it's going to be painful just in the room
# [02:08] <TabAtkins> yay
# [02:09] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
# [02:09] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-irc#T01-08-24
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# [02:32] <TabAtkins> Hm, rereading the canvas() discussion, I don't understand what dino means by "security issues" with element().
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# [02:34] * MichaelC when someone has a moment can you let me know the zakim code for when IndieUI will join you?
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# [02:35] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, timing attack sort of thing?
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# [02:35] <hayato_> test
# [02:35] <TabAtkins> hayato_: pong
# [02:35] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: Right, but I don't understand how that can possibly be an issue. Or rather, how one can possibly skirt it with canvas().
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# [02:35] <TabAtkins> Moz doesn't seem to have issues with -moz-element() currently.
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# [02:36] <TabAtkins> Now, granted, one possible benefit of an element()-like function that's not actually element() is limiting it to elements that provide an image source, so there's no cycle detection required.
# [02:37] * kennyluck Hmm… this place ends up not having as many people as I thought it might have.
# [02:37] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: What do you mean?
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# [02:38] * kennyluck TabAtkins, the observers are not coming. I think there are more observers than participants in this group.
# [02:38] * kennyluck Oh well, "Web Applications" is much more excited :)
# [02:39] <TabAtkins> Ah. We're much reduced from normal due to the meeting being in China.
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# [02:40] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: "security issue" could include reading values of :visited from script?
# [02:40] <plinss> /invite zakim #css
# [02:40] <TabAtkins> Hm, however, there are some *very* good use-cases for the general element().
# [02:40] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: How could you do that?
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# [02:41] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I don’t know, but I recall hearing that yesterday
# [02:41] * kennyluck gosh, this room is so big that hearing people is so difficult
# [02:41] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [02:41] <plinss> zakim, this is style
# [02:41] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not see a conference named 'style' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [02:41] <fantasai> round of intros
# [02:41] <ChrisL> zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
# [02:41] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
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# [02:42] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I mean, that's the usual timing attack scenario. But I have no clue why element() allows any timing attacks that aren't already allowed.
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# [02:42] <TabAtkins> Can we ask Zakim for a room?
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# [02:42] <fantasai> plinss: First topic: display: none on fragmentainers
# [02:42] <fantasai> astearns: Overflow fragments container that says that if fragment box has display noe, it doesn't create a box and gets no content
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# [02:43] <renoirb> Hello world from #TPAC
# [02:43] <fantasai> astearns: I think I'm going to add something similar to Regions spec, saying that if a region has display: none, it doesn't get any fragment of the named flow
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# [02:43] * sgalineau clunkiest air conditioning sound in the background ever
# [02:44] * hober waves from webapps
# [02:44] <fantasai> astearns: Question is, whether it remains a region and is something accessible in the named flows JS API, or if we add something to the spec saying that it does not become a region if it's display: none
# [02:44] <TabAtkins> zakim, room for 4?
# [02:44] <Zakim> ok, TabAtkins; conference Team_(css)01:44Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0244Z
# [02:44] <fantasai> astearns: I think latter formulation is a little bit more elegant
# [02:44] <TabAtkins> Hm, I wonder how I ask for a room for more time.
# [02:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: Would that mean if you flipped the value of display it forces reflow?
# [02:44] * TabAtkins well, I'll figure that out in an hour.
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# [02:44] <fantasai> ...
# [02:44] <fantasai> astearns: If you .. in JS, can see those named flows and perhaps do someting with them
# [02:45] <fantasai> astearns: problem: if these regions that are not really regions are in the API, have to figure out what info to return for them
# [02:45] <fantasai> astearns: I don't see much value in including them in the region chain api, so my preference is to not include them
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# [02:46] <fantasai> ChrisL: You have a chain of elements, a linked list, seemed if you flip display you need to take it out of the list
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# [02:46] <fantasai> ChrisL: Is there overhead for that?
# [02:46] <Zakim> Team_(css)01:44Z has now started
# [02:46] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [02:46] <fantasai> astearns: Same overhead as switching e.g. 'flow-from' property
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# [02:46] * fantasai wonders if Tab can hear, and if plinss has set up his polycom
# [02:46] * TabAtkins The polycom isn't dialed in yet.
# [02:46] <fantasai> astearns: I prpose resolving that regions with display: none do not become regions
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# [02:46] <fantasai> astearns: I havea list of other things in the spec that don't beocme regions, would put it there.
# [02:46] <TabAtkins> I support this proposal.
# [02:47] <fantasai> astearns: Might consider putting something in the Fragmentation spec about general interaction with display
# [02:47] <fantasai> fantasai: ok
# [02:47] <fantasai> RESOLVED: regions with display: none do not join the region chain
# [02:47] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add note to Fragmentation that display: none fragmentainers do not participate in fragmentation
# [02:48] * Parts: sangwhan (~uid12645@public.cloak)
# [02:48] <ChrisL> zakim, call wuzhou-banquet-east
# [02:48] <Zakim> I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for wuzhou-banquet-east
# [02:48] <fantasai> Topic: Selecting Attributes
# [02:48] <ChrisL> zakim, call wuzhou-east
# [02:48] <Zakim> I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for wuzhou-east
# [02:48] <ChrisL> zakim, call Wuzhou-East
# [02:48] <Zakim> I am sorry, ChrisL; I do not know a number for Wuzhou-East
# [02:48] <ChrisL> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [02:48] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; the call is being made
# [02:48] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
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# [02:49] <fantasai> Jirka: ITS WG, we have been creating REC which defines set of metadata which acn be used in HTML and XML documents in order to improve automatic l10n and i18n processes
# [02:49] <fantasai> s/i18n/translation/
# [02:49] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
# [02:49] <Zakim> On the phone I see TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East (muted)
# [02:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see koji, SteveZ, dbaron, lmcliste_, ChrisL, dopiweb, zcorpan_, zcorpan, dbaron_, renoirb, stakagi, hayato, dsinger, silvia1, sgalineau, Zakim, coeus, kawabata2, rhauck,
# [02:49] <Zakim> ... Rossen_, cwdoh, dino_, shan, MichaelC, emalasky1, shepazu, plh, israelh
# [02:49] <dbaron> Present (at table): Alan Stearns, Larry McLister, Rebecca Hauck, Simon Pieters, Jirka Kosek, Koji Ishii, Kazutaka Yamamoto, Taichi Kawabata, Rossen Anatassov, Israel Hilerio, ??? (W3C), Jet Villegas, Chris Lilley, Lea Verou, Sylvain Galineau, Bert Bos, Dirk Schultze, Dean Jackson, Elika Etemad, Steve Zilles, David Baron, Simon Sapin, Leif Arne Storset, Peter Linss
# [02:49] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East
# [02:49] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted
# [02:49] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East
# [02:49] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East was not muted, ChrisL
# [02:50] <fantasai> Jirka: In ITS if you've for example suggest some automatic translaion, you can put attribute saying that <b translate=no>
# [02:50] <fantasai> Jirka: which means don't translate this element
# [02:50] * ChrisL tab can you hear?
# [02:50] <fantasai> Jirka: Can also make rules to say which elements should / should not be translated
# [02:50] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [02:50] * TabAtkins no, I'm getting the dead line beeping sound. :/
# [02:50] <fantasai> Jirka: Similar to how CSS attaches properties to elements
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# [02:50] <ChrisL> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [02:50] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; the call is being made
# [02:50] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [02:50] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East
# [02:50] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted
# [02:50] <fantasai> Jirka: In ITS, if you would like such general approach, can use either XPath or Selectors
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# [02:51] <fantasai> Jirka: Wanted Selectors because average Web developer knows Selectors, but not XPath
# [02:51] * TabAtkins Still no good.
# [02:51] <fantasai> Jirka: So we added support for language such as Selectors
# [02:51] <fantasai> Jirka: But we have problem that HTML has human-language data in attributes instead of elements
# [02:51] <fantasai> Jirka: Like title attribute, some ppl using data attributes
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# [02:51] <jet> TabAtkins: can you hear anything?
# [02:51] <fantasai> Jirka: Cannot apply rules to such text, because Selectors cannot point at attributes
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# [02:51] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [02:52] <fantasai> Jirka: So we would like to extend Selectors to allow that
# [02:52] * TabAtkins No, same thing. I hear Zakim dialing, then get the dead-line beeping.
# [02:52] <fantasai> Jirka: sent mail to www-style about this
# [02:52] <fantasai> Jirka: Don't know how to proceed
# [02:52] * TabAtkins Then it stops, and Wuzhou drops, like it just did.
# [02:52] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0016.html
# [02:52] * fantasai suggests plinss connect Tab via Skype
# [02:52] * TabAtkins Can't skype from a Chromebook.
# [02:52] * TabAtkins I could Hangout?
# [02:53] <Jirka> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0016.html
# [02:53] * fantasai silly locked-down systems :)
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# [02:53] * fantasai defers to plinss on that quesiton
# [02:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: ...
# [02:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Some issues with this
# [02:53] <dbaron> s/.../ we could add pseudo-elements that match attributes/
# [02:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: First, styling attributes makes no sense in CSS, so new feature would have to be invalid in CSS
# [02:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Also Selectors API only returns elements, so could not use feature there either
# [02:53] <TabAtkins> It doesn't have to be invalid in CSS, just never generate a box.
# [02:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Intent is to implement ITS with JS using SelectorAPI
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# [02:54] <fantasai> SimonSapin: So even if we add this to CSS, JS API would have to be extended to return attributes
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# [02:54] <TabAtkins> But the SelectorsAPI part is harder, since we want .find/.qSA to return an Elements (array subclass that contains elements).
# [02:54] <fantasai> Jirka: Selectors abstract says it's generic language for selecting nodes
# [02:54] <fantasai> Jirka: So selecting attributes/nodes/comments is within that scope
# [02:54] <fantasai> Jirka: Know of some XML editors that extend Selectors in such ways
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# [02:55] <fantasai> Jirka: There are other publication use cases that need that information
# [02:55] <fantasai> Jirka: So maybe need to decide whether Selectors can only apply to elements, or if need some extension
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# [02:55] <kennyluck> using @ both for attribute and @-rule seems highly confusing...
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# [02:55] <fantasai> Jirka: ... whether extending/modifying JS apis can be done
# [02:55] <TabAtkins> Problem is the fundamental data model. All common uses of Selectors only return elements, and it's hard/odd to make the APIs built up around this handle anything else.
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# [02:56] <fantasai> Jirka: ... splitting Selectors from CSS was a good idea ...
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# [02:56] <SimonSapin> kennyluck: could be ::attr(foo)
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# [02:56] <TabAtkins> And attributes being nodes was always one of the weirder parts of old DOM, imo.
# [02:56] <fantasai> SimonSapin: In my opinion so far, Selectors is really about selecting elements
# [02:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: And the one mechanism for going around this is pseudo-elements
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> Oooh, suggestion! We could return PseudoElement!
# [02:57] <fantasai> SimonSapin: The issue that needs to be solved for ITS is to find a way for JS API to handle more than elements
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> There's a reason we defined that interface!
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# [02:58] <fantasai> ChrisL: We decided to call it Selectors, not CSS Selectors
# [02:58] <fantasai> ChrisL: Decided that so that it could be useful for other things
# [02:58] <fantasai> ChrisL: So, SimonSapin is correct -- CSS styles elements, so far only can select elements
# [02:59] <TabAtkins> I think it would be okay for .find() to return an array of Elements and PseudoElements.
# [02:59] <fantasai> ChrisL: If interested in using Selectors for other things, need to extend it for thos ethings
# [02:59] * Quits: emalasky1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:59] <fantasai> ChrisL: We're moving from XPath to Selectors W3C-wide, so can't say we don't want to handle someone else's use cases while saying that it's for everyone not for CSS alone
# [03:00] <fantasai> zcorpan: I agree with you that Selectors shoudl be generic, and could make sense to extend it
# [03:00] <fantasai> zcorpan: But also agree with Simon that I would like to see a proposal for what the SelectorsAPI should look like with this extension in place
# [03:00] <TabAtkins> Hey, yo, check the IRC.
# [03:00] <fantasai> zcorpan: Before extending Selectors with it
# [03:00] * fantasai will poke ppl, hang on
# [03:00] * TabAtkins Or find a way for me to have voice. :/
# [03:01] * astearns TabAtkins you have to show up and hold the mike to have a voice :)
# [03:01] * TabAtkins Mail me the mike.
# [03:01] <fantasai> Jirka: I was just saying that for ? API, extending selecting is still perf problem or incompatible, can always introduce new types than just Elements
# [03:01] <fantasai> fantasai: So Tab has a comment in IRC
# [03:01] * sgalineau You need business class IRC to speak here
# [03:01] * Bert thinks we could select an attribute and flow it into a region... '::attr(title) {flow: a}'
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# [03:02] * zcorpan SimonSapin pass the mic
# [03:02] * Quits: Satakagi (~Satakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:02] * ChrisL each accepted proposal gets you Tier points, but they roll over in December each year
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# [03:02] <astearns> fantasai reads Tab's comments above
# [03:03] <kennyluck> I don't think attributes are PseudoElements. What style do they have? (ie. remember that getComputedStyle can inspect pseudo-elments)
# [03:03] <fantasai> zcorpan: If we can return Elements and PseudoElements, then might as well return Elements and PseudoElements and Attr as well
# [03:03] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: A PseudoElement doesn't *need* to be able to generate a box.
# [03:03] <renoirb> <newbie>If i'm not mistaken, Attr is not a property of an Element?</newbie>
# [03:04] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: We're trying to kill the Attr interface. ^_^
# [03:04] <ChrisL> fantasai: send in a concrete proposal
# [03:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: no? we're trying to make it not inherit from Node, the object can't be removed
# [03:04] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Ah.
# [03:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds like the next action is for someone to figure out how Selectors API shoudl be extended, and then come back with that solution and ask Selectors syntax to be extended
# [03:05] <fantasai> ...
# [03:05] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, just what exactly should getComputedStyle(el, "::attr") return? An error or an style that has all initial values?
# [03:05] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not convinced of use case
# [03:05] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Just sticking with PseudoElement is probably good anyway - we likely want to allow people to, for example, select regions.
# [03:05] <fantasai> dbaron: There was some concerns wrt ... about excess complexity
# [03:05] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: Same as a ::before without a 'content'.
# [03:05] <fantasai> dbaron: Not clear to me feature that was done this way had to be done this way
# [03:06] <fantasai> Jirka: ...
# [03:06] * Quits: leif (~lastorset@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:06] <fantasai> Jirka: In situations with attributes, not possible to use Selectors
# [03:06] <astearns> TabAtkins: I agree we need to have PseudoElement - I don't know that this is an argument to conflate PseudoElement with Attr
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# [03:06] <fantasai> Jirka: I consider Selector sjust another language on top of doucment, like XPath
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# [03:06] <fantasai> Jirka: My POV is to just extend Selectors. If some other API doesn't support attributes, then doesn't use it
# [03:06] <ChrisL> s/.../ITS v1.0 wasxpath only, v2.0 adds selectors but they can't get at attributes
# [03:07] <fantasai> dbaron: Languages aren't designed to do everything.
# [03:07] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yeah, sure, it's not necessarily an argument for, but I already prefer the pseudo-element syntax for grabbing attrs, and it keeps down the set of things we'd return from .find.
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# [03:07] <fantasai> dbaron: You're taking a language designed around XPath and trying to swap in Selectors
# [03:07] <astearns> TabAtkins: sure - having a similar interface to get to them makes sense
# [03:07] <fantasai> dbaron: not convinced we should extend Web platform for this spec that you wrote
# [03:08] <ChrisL> really, ITS is the only thing that needs access to attributes?
# [03:08] <fantasai> Jirka: If Selectors is positioning itself as universal selection language, then ..
# [03:08] <fantasai> dbaron: DOM is moving towards model that attrs are not first-classs members of tree like elements are
# [03:08] <fantasai> dbaron: Attributes are an API on Elements, they're not a member of this tree
# [03:08] <fantasai> dbaron: Model that attributes are like nodes is too complex
# [03:09] <fantasai> zcorpan: Because of existing content, we can't get rid of Attr. Could maybe make it not inherit from Node, but still needs to exist
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# [03:09] <fantasai> dbaron: Yes, there's existing things, but movement to change that
# [03:09] <fantasai> Jirka: I think that there is no reason to not support some part of the document because ...
# [03:10] <fantasai> Jirka: Attribute is simply [part of the document, doesn't matter how it is represented, it is still storing data belonging to the document. Shoudl be possible to select it
# [03:10] <TabAtkins> I would like to take the few small steps necessary to kill most remaining uses of XPath.
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# [03:10] <hober> we shouldn't be adding new api that treats attributes as being node-like
# [03:11] <fantasai> Jirka: I could go to users and say if you want to select attributes, must use XPath
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# [03:11] <fantasai> fantasai reads Tab's comment
# [03:11] <TabAtkins> Right, hober, but having something that says "There's data in this attr over here" doesn't seem unreasonable.
# [03:11] <Jirka> TabAtkind: With XPath 2.0/3.0 it would be much more challenging :-)
# [03:12] <ChrisL> tab, yes but we can't say on the one hand stop xpath and on the other hand, we only case about selectors that are good for CSS
# [03:12] <TabAtkins> Jirka: Sure, but I'm not as concerned about that, as there's no browser impls. ^_^
# [03:12] <ChrisL> s/case/care/
# [03:12] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Note that I'm not saying that.
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# [03:12] <ChrisL> ok good
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# [03:12] * hober would be happy to say that :)
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# [03:13] <fantasai> fantasai: We already have a case where Selectors can select some things in one language (pseudo-elements are OK to select in CSS) but not in another (SelectorsAPI can only return actual elements)
# [03:13] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:13] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think it's a stretch to have another language that can do things with Selectors that are invalid in other cases like SelectorsAPI/CSS
# [03:13] <TabAtkins> I care about Selectors that are useful for the web. If there are reasonable APIs on the web that would like to refer to attributes, then having a way to select those seems reasonable.
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# [03:13] <ChrisL> this whole issue bout 'is an attr a node' seems orthogonal to whether selectors can get at them
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# [03:14] <fantasai> plinss: If we added something to Selectors that allowed selecting attributes, but it didn't work in the API, would that be workable for you?
# [03:14] <TabAtkins> Selectors is *the* tree-traversal/search API on the web.
# [03:14] <dbaron> I guess I just don't understand why we give ITS this level of access to make demands of the CSS WG when we don't give lots of people developing things on the Web that level of access to the CSS WG.
# [03:14] <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't think that's acceptable for the Jirka things.
# [03:14] <TabAtkins> dbaron: We're giving them no more access than anyone else making a request.
# [03:14] <fantasai> Jirka: For us it will be sufficient just extending Selectors, not also changing SelectorsAPI at the same time
# [03:15] <fantasai> Jirka: Because in the meantime, there are ways to implement this
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# [03:15] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I don't think we give most people making requests big slots on the agenda at a face-to-face.
# [03:15] <fantasai> Jirka: If there are other use cases for SelectorsAPI, can be changed in teh future
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# [03:15] * hober when is the indieui joint meeting?
# [03:15] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Sure, I've got no comment on that, other than that we're taking time to discuss it, and the relevant person happens to be around.
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# [03:16] <fantasai> plinss: Does this work for people? Or ppl opposed to this?
# [03:16] * plinss hober: 11am right after the break
# [03:16] <fantasai> zcorpan: My previous comment still applies, but I would be ok with adding it to Selectors now if it turns out that in a year or something, hasn't been added to Selectors API, then maybe should reverse it
# [03:16] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: It occurs to me that CSS might also have need for styling attributes, sometimes text would be in attributes, want to style it
# [03:17] * sgalineau is concerned there is very limited understanding of the target use-cases so we can't really come up with alternatives or evaluate them...
# [03:17] <fantasai> fantasai: You're not styling the attribute, you're styling a pseudo-element that has slurped up the attribute's text via 'content'
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Perhaps. Today that's done as ::before { content: attr(foo); }.
# [03:18] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [03:18] <Zakim> Team_(css)01:44Z has ended
# [03:18] <Zakim> Attendees were TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East
# [03:18] <fantasai> Bert: If you can use Regions flow to pull in attr to content, don't need the pseudo-element
# [03:18] <Bert> we could select an attribute and flow it into a region... '::attr(title) {flow: a}'
# [03:18] <TabAtkins> Bert: That's jumping a bit ahead. You still need to describe how it generates a box, ordering, etc.
# [03:19] <TabAtkins> At that point you're just defining an ordinary pseudo-element.
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# [03:19] * krit TabAtkins can you get over here for a moment?
# [03:19] <TabAtkins> If you can 'flow', you can 'display' without flowing.
# [03:19] * TabAtkins krit: Trying - Jet is trying something now.
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# [03:19] * ChrisL just go with the flow, man
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# [03:20] <fantasai> plinss: CSS doesn't need it, at least not now, but is this something we should add to Selectors to support the ITS use case?
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# [03:20] <fantasai> plinss: Not hearing any clear answers here
# [03:21] * TabAtkins Mind if I try talking?
# [03:21] <fantasai> ChrisL: Sounds like we've stopped objecting, so need a concrete document for this
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# [03:21] <fantasai> fantasai: If we think it's a pseudo-element, would go in a separate document from Selectors
# [03:21] * TabAtkins Man, sound really is horrible. Fantasai sounds like a fairy underwater.
# [03:21] * fantasai lol
# [03:21] * TabAtkins But I can hear Chris fine.
# [03:21] * fantasai wasn't using the mic
# [03:22] * hober plinss: thanks
# [03:22] * ChrisL houston, we have a connection
# [03:22] <dbaron__> TabAtkins, jet is holding the microphone up to his laptop's speaker
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# [03:23] * fantasai didn't make that out
# [03:23] * dbaron__ is now known as dbaron
# [03:23] * zcorpan TabAtkins can you type also?
# [03:23] * fantasai TabAtkins, you need to talk extra extra articulated
# [03:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I agree with what Chris says
# [03:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't have any comments beyond what I typed into IRC
# [03:23] * silvia1 talk more slowly
# [03:23] * TabAtkins Oh man, this is going to be hard.
# [03:25] <fantasai> fantasai: Jirka did send a proposal, so question is do we want that proposal? Are there other options to discuss?
# [03:25] <Bert> (I think, until somebody founds an objection, '::' seems the best syntax so far.)
# [03:25] <jet> TabAtkins: lots of noise from your line. quiet now though.
# [03:25] <fantasai> fantasai: I didn't read the thread, be good to hear a summary from someone who did
# [03:25] * TabAtkins Yeah, I muted a little while ago.
# [03:25] * sgalineau sounds like Tab Atkins is faxing his response. HOLD ON.
# [03:25] * Rossen_ Tab it's time to move on from the dot matrix printers...
# [03:25] * ChrisL idly suggests ::: for attributes
# [03:25] <fantasai> SimonSapin: The initial proposal was with an @sign like in XPath, like @foo for foo attribute
# [03:25] * TabAtkins if you're still hearing weird things, it's the line.
# [03:25] <fantasai> SimonSapin: That's a bit foreign in Selectors, several ppl didn't like it, may be ambiguous with @rules in CSS syntax
# [03:25] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Next proposal was to use pseudo-element syntax
# [03:26] * ChrisL tab, no Morse please
# [03:26] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Which make sense because this would have similar restrictions to pseudo-elements
# [03:26] * astearns five beeps means yes, six means no
# [03:26] <fantasai> SimonSapin: e.g. don't have child elements, have to be at the end of the selector
# [03:26] * TabAtkins Welp, I'm totally muted, and I still can't hear anyone and am making weird noise.
# [03:26] * zcorpan "what does the TabAtkins say"
# [03:26] * TabAtkins So, uh, let's stop this.
# [03:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Also it's only valid in certain contexts, just like most pseudo-elements are only valid in CSS rather than SelectorsAPI
# [03:26] * TabAtkins RINGINGINGARINGADINGARING
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# [03:27] <SimonSapin> pseudo-element syntax proposal: ::attr(foo)
# [03:27] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:27] <SimonSapin> or ::attr(ns|foo)
# [03:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: I like what Simon just typed
# [03:27] <fantasai> Bert: go for it
# [03:27] <fantasai> kennyluck: I don't think attributes are pseudo-elements, because they never have styles
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# [03:27] <TabAtkins> Note that this selects the attribute off of the selected nodes, regardless of whether there's such an attribute (probably unlike XPath).
# [03:27] <fantasai> kennyluck: they don't generate a box
# [03:28] <TabAtkins> The translation of "@foo" is "[foo]::attr(foo)"
# [03:28] <fantasai> kennyluck: Tab pointed out using :before { content: attr()}
# [03:28] <fantasai> kennyluck: I think we should have other syntax
# [03:28] * sgalineau what properties do you apply to attributes?
# [03:28] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: They *might* have styles, if we define how they generate a box.
# [03:28] <SimonSapin> sgalineau, none. This doesn’t do anything in CSS
# [03:28] <kennyluck> @attributes(selector, attrib)
# [03:28] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: But that's pushed down.
# [03:29] <sgalineau> ok, so purely for API selection
# [03:29] <TabAtkins> Oh, no, let's not abuse at-rules to hide selectors in.
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# [03:29] <fantasai> fantasai: ....
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# [03:30] <fantasai> SteveZ: Another way of saying is that it's not really pseudo-elements, but pseudo-things... broadening the class
# [03:30] * sgalineau for one welcomes our new pseudo-things overlords
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# [03:30] <fantasai> (fantasai was explaining that Selector in CSS select things that can have style properties, be they real elements or special pseudo-elements
# [03:31] <TabAtkins> Pseudo-elements are already a weird stretched concept, which are best understood as a combinator that jumps into some other tree.
# [03:31] <fantasai> but SelectorsAPI only selects actual elements,boxes are out-of scope
# [03:31] <TabAtkins> This explains ::region, ::content, etc.
# [03:31] <kennyluck> s/Tab pointed out using :before { content: attr()}/Tab pointed out ::before { content: normal; } doesn't have styles but I think we have ::before because it "sometimes" have styles/
# [03:31] * Bert thinks '@attr ATTRNAME SELECTOR {...}' would be valid syntax, too, but maybe a bit unexpected...
# [03:31] <TabAtkins> In this case it'd be jumping into the attribute tree.
# [03:32] <fantasai> It would make sense for another language to have pseudo-elements that can select things relevant ot their context, but no pseudo-elements that represent boxes)
# [03:32] <fantasai> dbaron: If this goe sinto the Selectors spec, need to make it *very clear* that this can't be used in CSS to style attributes
# [03:32] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'm fine with that, and can make it clear.
# [03:32] <dbaron> ...but that it's for selector APIs only
# [03:32] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Pseudo-elements have already moved out of Selectors module
# [03:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Yeah, it would be a separate spec
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# [03:33] <SteveZ> Fantasai: we are moving pseudoelements out of the Selectors Spec
# [03:34] <fantasai> Jirka: I'm willing ot be editor of this sepc
# [03:34] <SteveZ> ... because Selectors is already too large and pseudo-elements only apply to CSS anyways
# [03:34] <TabAtkins> Daniel and Alan are already the editors of the relevant spec. ^_^
# [03:34] * astearns notes that according to the schedule, coffee might be available outside
# [03:34] <fantasai> plinss: Does anyone want to co-edit?
# [03:34] <dbaron> It seems a little odd for it to be a separate spec just for the attribute things
# [03:34] * TabAtkins http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
# [03:35] <fantasai> This isn't a CSS feature, there fore it shouldn't go with the other CSS specs
# [03:35] <fantasai> s/specs/-only features/
# [03:36] <dbaron> fantasai: This isn't a CSS feature, there fore it shouldn't go with the other CSS specs. So it's clear this doesn't apply to CSS at all.
# [03:36] <dsinger> s/there fore/therefore/
# [03:36] <fantasai> astearns: multiple before/after pseudos should be replaced anyway, didn't pass muster
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# [03:37] <fantasai> plinss: So, draw up a draft, and we'll review it later
# [03:37] <fantasai> plinss: Anything else on this?
# [03:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add ::attr() pseudo-element into a new module for non-CSS pseudo-elements
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# [03:37] <fantasai> krit asks about discussing WebVTT pseudos
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# [03:38] <fantasai> plinss: we'll discuss ::cue after indieui
# [03:38] <fantasai> plinss: Please be back promptly at 11, we have a joint meeting
# [03:39] <jet> <break\>
# [03:39] * TabAtkins If someone could just hook up a text-to-speech triggered by my lines, that'd be great.
# [03:39] * TabAtkins Plus, I'd get to interrupt everyone, since I'd be responding on a 10s or so delay.
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# [03:39] <jet> TabAtkins: let's work on the phone thing during break
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# [03:40] * TabAtkins jet: sure.
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# [03:54] <jcraig> TabAtkins, why is ::nth-fragment in a different spec from css-pseudo?
# [03:55] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:56] <TabAtkins> jcraig: Not any particular reason, except that the spec for it is kinda complicated.
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# [04:00] <richardschwerdtfeger> would someone put the passcode in the channel please?
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# [04:02] <TabAtkins> richardschwerdtfeger: Calling in isn't working right.
# [04:02] <richardschwerdtfeger> ok. thanks Tab
# [04:02] * TabAtkins has been trying all morning, and hasn't found anything that'll work.
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# [04:03] <jcraig> Is the phone problem room-specific? We were on the PF call a few minutes ago.
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# [04:04] <TabAtkins> jcraig: Seemingly, yeah.
# [04:05] <jcraig> It'll be difficult to present the topic if I can't call in. Ted O'Connor may be able to speak to some of it.
# [04:05] <TabAtkins> At least, we tried to have Zakim call Wuzhou_East, and it repeatedly didn't work.
# [04:05] <jcraig> but he's in WebApps now
# [04:06] <richardschwerdtfeger> can someone run a Skype call and have us connect in?
# [04:07] <TabAtkins> Apparently we have a bad polycom unit.
# [04:07] <TabAtkins> Skype might work for others, yeah. We haven't tried it yet, because I can't skype from my computer.
# [04:07] * sgalineau I must try to get one of those magic Skype box like jdaggett used to bring
# [04:07] <richardschwerdtfeger> or could borrow the polygon from the PF room
# [04:07] <richardschwerdtfeger> polycon
# [04:08] * TabAtkins sgalineau Just fly to Tokyo and steal if from him.
# [04:08] * sgalineau well, that costs about as much as you flying here....
# [04:09] <richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
# [04:10] <Bert> Tab, still there? We have an engineer lookng at the Polycom.
# [04:11] <Bert> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:11] <Zakim> sorry, Bert, I don't know what conference this is
# [04:11] <Bert> zakim, this is style
# [04:11] <Zakim> sorry, Bert, I do not see a conference named 'style' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [04:12] <Bert> zakim, this is css
# [04:12] <Zakim> sorry, Bert, I do not see a conference named 'css' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [04:12] <plinss> zakim, room for 6?
# [04:12] <Zakim> ok, plinss; conference Team_(css)03:12Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0412Z
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# [04:12] <Bert> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:12] <Zakim> ok, Bert; the call is being made
# [04:12] <Zakim> Team_(css)03:12Z has now started
# [04:12] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [04:12] <plinss> Tab, the polycom may be sorted, try calling zakim again
# [04:13] <richardschwerdtfeger> what is the passcode?
# [04:13] <jcraig> Zakim, passcode?
# [04:13] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig
# [04:14] <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [04:14] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [04:14] <Zakim> +James_Craig
# [04:14] * dino_ waves to jcraig
# [04:14] <richardschwerdtfeger> went quiet
# [04:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [04:15] * dino_ is now known as dino
# [04:15] <jcraig> Zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:15] <Zakim> ok, jcraig; the call is being made
# [04:15] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [04:15] <TabAtkins> Zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East
# [04:15] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East should no longer be muted
# [04:15] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:15] <dino> can you hear anything?
# [04:15] * TabAtkins Same deal, dialing, then dead line.
# [04:16] <richardschwerdtfeger> line now dead
# [04:16] <jcraig> zalkim, drop Wuzhou_East
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# [04:16] <dino> the meeting hasn't actually started, but you might hear background noise
# [04:16] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
# [04:16] <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [04:16] <jcraig> Zakim, drop Wuzhou_East
# [04:16] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East is being disconnected
# [04:16] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [04:16] * MichaelC__ is now known as MichaelC
# [04:16] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:16] <TabAtkins> dino: No, the problem is that calling Wuzhou_East is failing.
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# [04:16] <TabAtkins> Zakim isn't able to connect to it.
# [04:16] <dino> we heard you for a moment though
# [04:16] <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [04:16] <TabAtkins> That's... strange.
# [04:17] <richardschwerdtfeger> I can hear James
# [04:17] <dino> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:17] <Zakim> ok, dino; the call is being made
# [04:17] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [04:17] <dino> that was wwaaaaaay too quit
# [04:17] <dino> quick
# [04:17] <TabAtkins> richardschwerdtfeger: Yeah, us in the call can hear us.
# [04:17] <TabAtkins> dino: That's what I keep telling you. ^_^
# [04:17] <TabAtkins> We can hear a ringing sound, then dead line.
# [04:17] <Bert> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:17] <Zakim> ok, Bert; the call is being made
# [04:17] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East.a
# [04:18] <dino> can you hear bert?
# [04:18] <TabAtkins> Nope.
# [04:18] <jcraig> Should I attempt explanation via IRC?
# [04:18] <dino> we heard a ringing sound this time
# [04:18] <plinss> zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East.a
# [04:18] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East.a should no longer be muted
# [04:18] <richardschwerdtfeger> line died again
# [04:18] <TabAtkins> Can y'all hear the dead line beeping?
# [04:18] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [04:18] <TabAtkins> zakim, mute Wuzhou_East
# [04:18] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East.a should now be muted
# [04:18] <jcraig> Yes, I hear the busy signal.
# [04:18] * MichaelC zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_East.a (muted)
# [04:19] <MichaelC> zakim, drop wuz
# [04:19] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East.a is being disconnected
# [04:19] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East.a
# [04:19] <MichaelC> zakim call wuzhou_east
# [04:19] <MichaelC> zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [04:19] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [04:19] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [04:19] <dino> that was easy
# [04:19] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute wuz
# [04:19] <Zakim> Wuzhou_east was not muted, TabAtkins
# [04:19] <TabAtkins> Woo, works!
# [04:20] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:20] <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east
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# [04:21] * TabAtkins The room is apparently very large and has terrible acoustics.
# [04:21] * jcraig Having trouble understanding speakers not right next to the phone
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# [04:22] <dino> jcraig: we'll have microphones soon
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# [04:23] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:23] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
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# [04:24] <TabAtkins> D'oh, wuzhou dropped.
# [04:24] <Bert> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:24] <Zakim> ok, Bert; the call is being made
# [04:24] <dino> zakim, call wuzho_east
# [04:24] <Zakim> I am sorry, dino; I do not know a number for wuzho_east
# [04:24] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [04:24] <TabAtkins> zakim, drop wuzhou_east
# [04:24] <Zakim> Wuzhou_East is being disconnected
# [04:24] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [04:24] <TabAtkins> zakim, dial wuzhou_east
# [04:24] <Zakim> ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made
# [04:24] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [04:25] <TabAtkins> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:25] <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east (muted)
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# [04:25] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [04:25] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute wuz
# [04:25] <Zakim> Wuzhou_east should no longer be muted
# [04:25] <TabAtkins> zakim, mute wuz
# [04:25] <Zakim> Wuzhou_east should now be muted
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# [04:25] <TabAtkins> zakim, drop wuz
# [04:25] <Zakim> Wuzhou_east is being disconnected
# [04:25] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [04:25] <TabAtkins> Hm...
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# [04:25] <TabAtkins> This totally worked a second ago.
# [04:25] * jcraig TabAtkins, are you in the physical room?
# [04:26] <TabAtkins> jcraig: Nope, I'm at home in Cali.
# [04:26] <dino> we need Michael Cooper to do whatever magic he did last time
# [04:26] * jcraig Might be that someone there has to hang up.
# [04:26] <dino> we did
# [04:26] <TabAtkins> zakim, dial Wuzhou_east
# [04:26] <Zakim> ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made
# [04:26] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [04:26] <dino> (of course we have no idea what the hotel telephone system is doing behind the scenes)
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# [04:27] <TabAtkins> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [04:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, TabAtkins, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Wuzhou_east
# [04:27] * Quits: zlei_ (~zlei@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:27] <TabAtkins> Looks like we can kind of hear the room now.
# [04:27] <TabAtkins> At least, sometimes. It's spotty, but it's working.
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# [04:27] <dino> looks?
# [04:27] <TabAtkins> Like, it's fading in and out at about 1hz
# [04:27] * jcraig Sounds, you semantic nerd.
# [04:27] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [04:28] <dino> can people on the phone hear peter speaking?
# [04:28] <TabAtkins> yes
# [04:28] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:28] <fantasai> plinss: IndieUI joining us for presentation
# [04:28] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [04:28] <TabAtkins> dammit
# [04:28] * fantasai can hear Janina, that's all that matters ;)
# [04:28] <fantasai> Janina: Thanks for allowing us time
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# [04:29] * Joins: shan (~shan@public.cloak)
# [04:29] <fantasai> Janina: We have been working on 2 modules, want to talk about today the User Context model, which will allow applications to convey key things based on user prefs
# [04:29] <TabAtkins> Since this phone isn't working, jcraig is wanting to reschedule in the PF room, as they know their phone works
# [04:29] <fantasai> Janina: Recently Apple came up with suggestion that we really liked to use Media Queries
# [04:29] <TabAtkins> Because we've dropped entirely.
# [04:29] * fantasai notes that this was suggested several TPACs ago
# [04:29] <fantasai> Janina: We like it for many reasons
# [04:29] <dino> zakim, call Wuzhou_East
# [04:29] <Zakim> ok, dino; the call is being made
# [04:29] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_East
# [04:29] * Joins: jasonjgw (~user@public.cloak)
# [04:29] <dino> :(
# [04:29] <fantasai> Janina: And James Craig ahs been redrafting our document, and will provide examples
# [04:30] <TabAtkins> Okay, we're in.
# [04:30] <fantasai> Janina: Once phone starts working, will ask James to present on how we propose to use MQ
# [04:30] * Joins: dopi (~dopi@public.cloak)
# [04:30] <TabAtkins> Nope, out.
# [04:30] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_East
# [04:30] * sgalineau IE10 uses media queries to detect high-contrast user prefs...
# [04:30] <fantasai> Janina: want your reactions to this
# [04:30] * Joins: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak)
# [04:30] * TabAtkins Fuck it, let's either do IRC or reschedule.
# [04:30] <fantasai> Janina: We're fine if we maintain the spec or if migrate to another spec
# [04:30] * TabAtkins Not worth trying any more.
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# [04:30] <fantasai> discussion of phone problems
# [04:31] <SimonSapin> Zakim, unmute Wuzhou_East
# [04:31] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Wuzhou_East
# [04:31] <richardschwerdtfeger> ok. moving to the PF room
# [04:31] <fantasai> hober: I can pretend to be James for a minute
# [04:31] <jcraig> Clarifying, this was a joint WG agreement to switch to media queries. Ted and I (Apple) came up with a restrictions/privacy/anti-fingerprinting proposed extension to MediaQueryList and @media.
# [04:31] <fantasai> hober: One concrete example from user Context spec tha tmake smore sense as MQ is display-colors-inverted
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# [04:31] <fantasai> hober: To handle case where for a11y reasons,have system-wide color inversion
# [04:31] <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#colors-inverted
# [04:31] <fantasai> hober: Most of the time should be invisible to page
# [04:31] <TabAtkins> I talked to our own a11y people about display-colors-inverted, and support it.
# [04:31] <fantasai> hober: breaks down for content images, some background images
# [04:32] <fantasai> hober: so that people look in normal colors, not like aliens
# [04:32] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:32] <fantasai> hober: double-inverted MQ allows author to double-invert images so they come out right
# [04:32] <TabAtkins> I thought we could just auto-invert pictures/videos, but apparently a bunch of "little" images, like icons and such, should stay inverted like the text they're next to.
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# [04:32] <TabAtkins> Only significant/"content" images and videos need to be re-inverted back to normal.
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# [04:32] <dbaron___> Though ted's use case sort of depends on knowing the exact inversion in order to re-invert
# [04:33] * sgalineau if I recall the IE model, high-contrast disables background images and such by default but you can use an MQ to specify them, or use images better suited to the context...
# [04:33] <RalphS> Zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [04:33] <Zakim> ok, RalphS; the call is being made
# [04:33] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [04:33] <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [04:33] <Zakim> -James_Craig
# [04:33] <dbaron___> Zakim, unmute Wuzhou
# [04:33] <Zakim> Wuzhou_east was not muted, dbaron___
# [04:33] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:33] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [04:33] <dino> fantasai: I would prefer we could tag images as not to be inverted, and the UA should hanle it
# [04:33] <jcraig> zakim, passcode?
# [04:33] * Joins: Envymask (~Dongwon@public.cloak)
# [04:33] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig
# [04:33] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:33] * RalphS Zakim, code?
# [04:33] * Zakim saw 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, RalphS
# [04:34] <dino> s/hanle/handle/
# [04:34] <fantasai> Ted: Using CSS filters to undo inversion seems natural
# [04:34] <Zakim> +James_Craig
# [04:34] <fantasai> Ted: Authors in the best position to know whether image should be re-inverted
# [04:34] <fantasai> Ted: MQ just has two keywords, inverted andnone
# [04:34] <fantasai> Ted: But if you wanted to cover different forms of inverted, would need more keywords
# [04:34] <fantasai> Ted: MQ sould then only match systems that have form of inversion
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# [04:35] <fantasai> plinss: That seems fragile for me, if different types of images
# [04:35] * Joins: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [04:35] <jcraig> Before we get into specific discussion of individual MQ features, I would like to summarize the approach if rescheduling to a working phone bridge is not an option.
# [04:35] <dino> it's not clear to me that system-inversion is the same as CSS filter invert()
# [04:35] <TabAtkins> I like fantasai's suggestion of tagging elements as not invertible.
# [04:35] <jcraig> Let's don't get hung up on inversion algorithms yet
# [04:35] <plinss> s/types of images/types of inversions/
# [04:36] <jcraig> First of all, from the intro: "The specification below adds several new "Media Features" to detect user settings, using existing syntax defined in the CSS3 Media Queries specification, and provides an access control extension to the MediaQueryList interface defined in the CSSOM View Model."
# [04:36] <jcraig> "Because this approach relies so heavily on features that overlap with work maintained by the CSS Working Group and Web Applications Working Group, it is likely that portions or all of this specification may move under the purview these other groups. At a minimum, the IndieUI Working Group requests guidance and a collaborative working relationship with CSS and WebApps."
# [04:36] <dbaron___> for alternative color inversion, see http://dbaron.org/mozilla/invert-colors#http://www.w3.org/ in Firefox
# [04:36] <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#intro
# [04:37] <fantasai> fantasai: While I support MQ for a11y prefs in general, I don't think this particular case is best handled by MQ. I would rather enable tagging images that shouldn't be inverted and let the UA handle that as appropriate.
# [04:37] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:37] <fantasai> hober: Would you allow tagging bg images?
# [04:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Think it should be general to all images
# [04:37] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
# [04:38] <fantasai> [dbaron reads jcraig's comments]
# [04:38] * Joins: Ralph_ (rswick@public.cloak)
# [04:38] <jcraig> The general idea is that sometimes user-specific settings are needed by web apps. Large document suites like Google Docs and iWork for iCloud are examples of this, where they can improve the experience for all users if the app is provided with specific user settings, allowed by the users
# [04:38] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [04:38] <jcraig> but there are real privacy and fingerprinting implications to this
# [04:38] <fantasai> krit: One point, double-inversion can be done with filter function, but agree with fantasai that shouldn't do the double-inversion for the browser, but have the browser do it
# [04:38] * dbaron___ is now known as dbaron
# [04:38] <fantasai> hober: ...
# [04:38] <fantasai> krit: Shouldn't be content images in style
# [04:39] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
# [04:39] <jcraig> for example, not all web pages should know if a screenreader is running, just like not all pages should need to know your location
# [04:39] <fantasai> fantasai: It's not so much content vs not content in this cas,e but mayb ephotographic vs not photographic, etc.
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# [04:39] <jcraig> so the general concept is that there are media feature groups that can be restricted (some specific to accessibility, some noty)
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# [04:39] <fantasai> janina: bar chart might want inverted, but not ...
# [04:39] <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#example-restricted-call-to-matchmedia
# [04:40] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:40] <Ralph_> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [04:40] <Zakim> On the phone I see TabAtkins, James_Craig
# [04:40] * Ralph_ hi
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# [04:40] <fantasai> fantasai: Also might want to invert luminosity but not hue in the bar chart, if talking about colors in the paragraph text nearby
# [04:40] <richardschwerdtfeger> is the phone working now?
# [04:40] <fantasai> janina: Ability to control that definitely a plus
# [04:40] <Ralph_> Zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [04:40] <Zakim> ok, Ralph_; the call is being made
# [04:40] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [04:40] <dbaron> though inverting luminosity but not hue is actually kind of hard -- if you want to preserve hue you need to either sacrifice accurate luminosity or accurate saturation
# [04:41] <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [04:41] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:41] <Ralph_> ack wuz
# [04:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:41] <fantasai> fantasai: We have a need to tag images for bidi already, so whatever syntax we use for that can be use dwith this (with additional appropriate keywords)
# [04:41] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [04:41] <fantasai> jcraig: Want to discuss general idea of ? MQ
# [04:41] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [04:41] <dsinger> This general idea was first floated around 2007 (oof), on the WhatWG list and socialized some time around then with CSS <http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011709.html>
# [04:41] * TabAtkins a;sldha;sdkljf;asldk
# [04:41] <ChrisL> in fact, dbaron inverting lightness is relatively easy
# [04:42] * fantasai proposes not using the phone, and just using Skype
# [04:42] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:42] <jcraig> if someone in the room could read my IRC comments out loud?
# [04:42] <TabAtkins> Skype into the meeting?
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# [04:42] * Ralph_ is now known as RalphS
# [04:42] <jcraig> In this example: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#example-restricted-call-to-matchmedia
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# [04:42] * dsinger to James, yes, we can read for you
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# [04:43] <dino> [we are trying to skype in]
# [04:43] <jcraig> if a site author requests access to a "restricted" media feature, matchMedia and @media alway return the default value immediately (don't expose user prefs or privacy)
# [04:43] <dino> fantasai reads james's comments from irc
# [04:43] <dbaron> zakim, code?
# [04:43] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbaron
# [04:43] <Zakim> +??P10
# [04:43] <TabAtkins> I'm supportive fo the general approach, but unsure about the precise mechanics. Several of these appear to be best done as special values, etc.
# [04:43] * Quits: johooney (~hooney@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:43] * TabAtkins ooh, that sounds not terrible, but it's choppy.
# [04:44] <Zakim> -??P10
# [04:44] * TabAtkins I take it back. Terrible.
# [04:44] <jcraig> but then the user is prompted, and the web app can get an asynchronous callbnack when the setting becomes allowed via addListener or a subsequent call to matchMedia
# [04:44] * TabAtkins I heard Janina pretty clearly for a bit.
# [04:44] <fantasai> zakim, code
# [04:44] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', fantasai
# [04:44] <jcraig> zakim, passcode?
# [04:44] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig
# [04:44] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [04:44] * fantasai is connected via Skype
# [04:45] <dino> can someone on the phone speak out loud?
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# [04:45] <jcraig> the specifics of the proposal are rough, but we think the general idea of the privacy modeal is sound.
# [04:45] * Parts: Tomoyuki (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Tomoyuki)
# [04:47] <TabAtkins> Privacy model seems interesting. So, how do you get permission to access this stuff? On first use, pop a request bar? Explicit JS request? Only explicit user action?
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# [04:48] <jcraig> TabAtkins, on first request to mql.matches… or first time @media block (and a rule inside it match)
# [04:48] <TabAtkins> Okay.
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# [04:49] <dino> we can hear the phone pretty well
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# [04:49] <jcraig> Todo from the spec: Explain how the privacy model works: when user prompted, matchMedia returns false immediately, and only provides the updated match ansynchronously through matchMedia().addEventListener or subsequent requests to matchMedia().matches (e.g. on page reload) so there is never any detectable difference between "No" and "You don't need to know." A restricted @media block never prompts unless both the @media block and an included selector matches.
# [04:49] <fantasai> OK, let's go with this system here. I'll type, you guys talk
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# [04:50] <fantasai> jcraig: Before specifics of individual media features, general idea is web app [echo]
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# [04:50] <fantasai> jcraig: Specific media feature, idea is that
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# [04:50] <dbaron> Zakim, mute IPcaller
# [04:50] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
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# [04:50] <fantasai> jcraig: categories of features that user may not want everybody to know about
# [04:50] <TabAtkins> The @media "only request if there's an matched element" isn't a significant restriction. @media (foo) { * {} } is easy.
# [04:50] <fantasai> jcraig: such as things such as disabilities
# [04:50] <dbaron> Zakim, [IPcaller] is fantasai-laptop
# [04:50] <Zakim> +fantasai-laptop; got it
# [04:50] <fantasai> jcraig: or specific media features
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: but also some that are less strict
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: which can be currently determined by creatively using CSS and JS
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: but thought to make those as media feature as wel
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# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: if you have an @media block with a particular rule, e.g. @media (subtitle)
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: would match whether have specific setting on
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: if got @media block and rule inside of that
# [04:51] <fantasai> jcraig: if the page matched that user setting, and had matching selector, then you would get a user prompt at that time
# [04:52] <fantasai> jcraig: web page would return default value until user accepted to reveal actual prefs
# [04:52] <fantasai> jcraig: user could set prefs for specific rules
# [04:52] <fantasai> jcraig: e.g. any feature related to audio/video, or related to screenreader, or related to color settings
# [04:53] <fantasai> jcraig: these could potentially expose user to fingerprinting / privacy concerns
# [04:53] <TabAtkins> I could see the prompt saying "This page wants access to your accessibility preferences. Allow/Deny?".
# [04:53] <TabAtkins> "wants to know about your"
# [04:53] <fantasai> jcraig: would like CSS and WebApps to allow these queries, but in ways that don't expose undue privacy leaks
# [04:53] * dbaron is having trouble following given the audio quality
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# [04:54] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute fantasai-laptop
# [04:54] <Zakim> fantasai-laptop should no longer be muted
# [04:54] <dsinger> being asked on every page that contains media that can adapt would (I hope, since all media pages should be accessible) quickly get annoying.
# [04:54] <fantasai> fantasai: I think this seems reasonable to me, as long as the spec is flexible enough to allow UI innovation
# [04:54] * Quits: dwim (~dwim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [04:54] <TabAtkins> The spec needs significant review for idiom use, and several of these MQs should instead be values or otherwise handled within normal CSS (such as the color prefs), but otherwise it seems broadly okay.
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# [04:54] <jcraig> Thinks it should be more specific than just general "accessibility" settings. There are categories that a user could choose to expose.
# [04:55] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:55] <fantasai> jet: So, authors for many years have sucked at writing accessibility features, and people who need those features pick specific UAs that will give them consistent presentation from site to site
# [04:55] <TabAtkins> dsinger: If you want to allow it for all pages, you should be able to set it to always yes.
# [04:55] <fantasai> jet: Allowing author to implement those seems antagonistic to suers who need those features the most
# [04:56] <zcorpan> s/suers/users/
# [04:56] <jcraig> Re: annoyance. If a user did not care whether every site knew they wanted captions, they could allow that feature category to all websites.
# [04:56] <TabAtkins> jcraig: Being specific is fine within the context of a settings page, but not within the context of a permissions grant. You want a minimum of permission requests, worded for maximum clarity.
# [04:56] <dsinger> if the natural result that all users set it to say "yes, always" we're not exactly mitigating fingerprinting risk, alas
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# [04:56] <fantasai> jcraig: If someone wanted to share, should do that from browsers
# [04:56] <fantasai> jcraig: allow all
# [04:57] <fantasai> jcraig: flip side is ? sharing, where prompt for location settings is not needed on most sites, but needed for spcific sites like maps
# [04:57] <TabAtkins> s/?/location/
# [04:57] <fantasai> janina: Might want to define it once and use it in various different UAs
# [04:58] * Quits: stakagi (~stakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:58] <fantasai> ?: presumably the proposal would have common formats for storing it and so that UAs can then retrieve that info on behalf of user as required. Would extend work somewhat
# [04:58] <fantasai> ?: MQ syntax for expressing user's individual prefs, secondly existing apis for interrogating that info, then potentially a format for storing and enabling UAs to retrieve it
# [04:58] <TabAtkins> That sounds far beyond the concerns of CSS. We should just be worrying about the stuff themselves.
# [04:59] <fantasai> ?: could be a layer on top of that
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# [04:59] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, the actual features.
# [04:59] <dino> s/?/Jason/
# [04:59] <richardschwerdtfeger> like grouping?
# [04:59] <TabAtkins> I R GUD AT ENGLISH
# [04:59] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with Tab, that seems like an OS-level feature
# [04:59] <fantasai> fantasai: Not something to standardize here
# [05:00] <jcraig> what seems like an OS feature?
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> jcraig: The specification of prefs in a browser-agnostic way.
# [05:00] <TabAtkins> jcraig: /sharing of prefs across browsers.
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# [05:00] <fantasai> fantasai: So what I've heard so far is that jcraig wants to make sure that an MQ approach is in general OK
# [05:01] <fantasai> fantasai: And we have some concerns about individual features being better handled in other ways than MQ, but others OK
# [05:01] <jcraig> As an example, -ms-high-contrast proposal is clearly within the scope of CSS MF, but it potentially exposes users to privacy/fingerprinting. So I think the privacy model goes hand-in-hand with the CSS features.
# [05:01] <fantasai> Bert: Approach is good, but haven't looked at individual properties yet
# [05:01] <TabAtkins> Several of these are best as values, perhaps a user-pref(<ident>) function.
# [05:01] <jcraig> Should be part of CSSOM
# [05:02] <TabAtkins> And we can hang an API off of window.CSS for querying them directly (triggering the permissions grant - this needs some more thought).
# [05:02] <fantasai> fantasai: Think we agree with the general approach, but want to review more closely individual features to make sure they are best handled as MQ, or should be handled otherwise
# [05:02] <TabAtkins> user-pref(foreground-color), etc.
# [05:02] <fantasai> jcraig: How do people feel about named groups?
# [05:02] * fantasai jcraig, link?
# [05:02] <richardschwerdtfeger> that was rich
# [05:03] <fantasai> s/jcraig/Rich/
# [05:03] <richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
# [05:03] <fantasai> Bert: Can you explain what that is?
# [05:03] <jcraig> Example: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#userMediaSettings
# [05:03] <TabAtkins> I think the named groups are more of a "browser/OS categorization suggestion" thing.
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# [05:04] <TabAtkins> Like I said, I think that the permissions prompt should be a one-and-done thing.
# [05:04] <fantasai> ?: Media features are grouped, and if any oe of those features are prompted for, user will get one prompt, otherwise different prompt
# [05:04] <fantasai> fantasai: I think how the prompts are categorized should be up to the UA
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# [05:04] <fantasai> jcraig: ...
# [05:04] <TabAtkins> While permissions might be perma-granted in a granular fashion in the settings page, a request for currently-ungranted prefs should grant everything.
# [05:04] <fantasai> jcraig: Specifics of proposal are rough, but general model is clear
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# [05:04] * Ralph_ is now known as RalphS
# [05:04] <TabAtkins> Anything else is user-hostile, though I recognize the potential weaknesses.
# [05:04] <jcraig> s/clear/sound/
# [05:05] <fantasai> ??: Whatever is decided should follow European privacy model
# [05:05] <fantasai> rich: link?
# [05:05] <TabAtkins> This kidn of info *should* be specified in the spec, but it's less of a concern for the CSS things themselves, except insofar as we need to make sure there is *a* sane way to request permission for these.
# [05:05] <fantasai> ??: European privacy and APEC model works for ... US model ...
# [05:06] <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: do you have a link to these models?
# [05:06] <fantasai> fantasai: Further comments?
# [05:06] <jcraig> I think it can work within the existing API for matchMedia
# [05:06] <fantasai> ??: iapp.org
# [05:06] <TabAtkins> I'm willing to do a spot review of the spec and present conclusions to the WG.
# [05:06] <ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Privacy_and_Electronic_Communications
# [05:07] <jcraig> We meet with WebApps about the same topic later today.
# [05:07] <fantasai> [discussion of timelines]
# [05:07] <fantasai> fantasai: When would you like to assign action to CSSWG to review your draft?
# [05:07] <jcraig> Tab has agreed to review the spec.
# [05:07] <MichaelC> last 3 ?? are Katie Haritos-Shea
# [05:07] <fantasai> janina: Probably before FPWD, maybe Jan/Feb? James?
# [05:07] <jcraig> s/spec./draft/
# [05:08] * TabAtkins If I review, what a11y mailling list should I send comments to? There are too many a11y lists. >_<
# [05:09] <jcraig> public-indie-ui
# [05:09] <fantasai> ACTION csswg to review User Context Module
# [05:09] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:09] <trackbot> Error finding 'csswg'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [05:09] <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html
# [05:09] * Quits: hayato (~hayato@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:09] <TabAtkins> Action tab and csswg to review User Context Module https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html
# [05:09] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-593 - And csswg to review user context module https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/indieui/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-11-18].
# [05:09] <fantasai> plinss: Timeframe on feedback?
# [05:10] <jcraig> thanks for your time, everyone.
# [05:10] <fantasai> fantasai: next 2 months, I heard
# [05:10] <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: thank you
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# [05:10] <fantasai> janina: Sounds fine. We're loose on timeframe, since working to finish events thing
# [05:10] <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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# [05:10] <fantasai> Case closed.
# [05:10] <Zakim> -James_Craig
# [05:11] <fantasai> plinss: That brings us to lunch, then digipub joint meeting
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# [05:11] <jet> <break\>
# [05:11] <TabAtkins> 1hr?
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# [05:11] <fantasai> <br type=lunch>
# [05:11] <TabAtkins> You forgot the dur='' attribute!
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# [05:11] <TabAtkins> THIS BREAK LASTS FOREVER
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# [05:11] <fantasai> I think the default value for type=lunch is 1.5hr
# [05:12] <fantasai> but I'm not sure about this specific instance :)
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# [05:12] <RalphS> Zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [05:12] <Zakim> ok, RalphS; the call is being made
# [05:12] * silvia1 dur="120" - which is almost eternity ;-)
# [05:12] * plinss on the plus side, we just got a new polycom, so let's see if that works after lunch
# [05:12] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [05:12] <fantasai> shooting for 1:15
# [05:12] <fantasai> return time
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# [05:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins ^
# [05:13] <TabAtkins> Sounds good.
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# [05:13] <Zakim> -fantasai-laptop
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# [05:13] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
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# [05:18] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Wuzhou_east, in Team_(css)03:12Z
# [05:18] <Zakim> Team_(css)03:12Z has ended
# [05:18] <Zakim> Attendees were Wuzhou_East, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Craig, TabAtkins, Wuzhou_East.a, fantasai-laptop
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# [05:30] * Ralph__ zakim, who's on the phone?
# [05:30] * Zakim apparently Team_(css)03:12Z has ended, Ralph__
# [05:30] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [05:30] * Zakim sees on irc: Ralph__, ijongcheol, dwim, zqzhang___, kennyluck, Jirka, koji, emalasky1, cwdoh_, richardschwerdtfeger, jcraig, _nikos_office, hyeonseok, renoirb, silvia1, Zakim,
# [05:30] * Zakim ... coeus, kawabata2, cyril, RRSAgent, dauwhe_, glenn, liam, lmclister
# [05:30] * Ralph__ zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [05:30] * Zakim sorry, Ralph__, I don't know what conference this is
# [05:30] * Ralph__ zakim, this will be css
# [05:30] * Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Ralph__
# [05:31] * Ralph__ zakim, room for 5 for 360 minutes?
# [05:31] <Zakim> ok, Ralph__; conference Team_(css)04:31Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 360 minutes until 1031Z
# [05:31] * Ralph__ zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [05:31] * Zakim ok, Ralph__; the call is being made
# [05:31] <Zakim> Team_(css)04:31Z has now started
# [05:31] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
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# [05:34] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [05:34] <Zakim> Team_(css)04:31Z has ended
# [05:34] <Zakim> Attendees were Wuzhou_east
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# [05:34] * Ralph__ zakim, call wuzhou_east
# [05:34] * Zakim ok, Ralph__; the call is being made
# [05:34] <Zakim> Team_(css)04:31Z has now started
# [05:35] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
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# [05:38] * Ralph__ rrsagent, pointer?
# [05:38] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-irc#T04-35-03
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# [06:10] <TabAtkins> Okay, I'm gone for about 40 minutes, just in case anyone reconvenes before then.
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# [06:21] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [06:21] <Zakim> On the phone I see Wuzhou_east
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# [06:26] * zcorpan wonders if it's possible to fix the temperature in here
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# [06:34] <dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html
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# [06:38] * fantasai zcorpan, I did ask
# [06:38] * fantasai people that were asked went outside presumably to do something about it
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# [06:39] * fantasai doesn't know whether that succeeded
# [06:39] * zcorpan fantasai ok, thanks. i asked the coffee girl about it also and she said to wait for a bit
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# [06:40] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [06:41] <fantasai> Topic: DigiPub Joint Meeting
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# [06:41] * dbaron zcorpan, we could fix the temperature at 16°C :-P
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# [06:42] <fantasai> Markus: This interest Group is charged with producing reqs and use cases for digital publishing industry for the open web platform -- things digital publishing wants to do that web platform can't do yet
# [06:42] * dbaron thinks it's actually more like 18°C
# [06:42] <fantasai> Markus: Pagination is really important, obviously
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# [06:42] <fantasai> Markus: Point o fthis meeting is to go over our progress, and get feedback on it
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# [06:42] <fantasai> Markus: Our question is, how should we structure this, document this, what do you need?
# [06:43] <fantasai> Markus: Here's our draft of pagination, which Dave Cramer has been working on
# [06:43] <fantasai> Markus: Sits in context worth mentioning quickly
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# [06:43] <fantasai> Markus: Most of you know aobut JLREQ, which was worked on for 5 years before published
# [06:43] <fantasai> Markus: There are other similar documents within i18n starting up
# [06:43] <fantasai> Markus: This document is going to be LatinReq
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# [06:44] <fantasai> Markus: To capture publishing requirements for Western typesetting
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# [06:44] <fantasai> Markus: It will be use dto draaw concrete requirements for CSS
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# [06:44] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/pagination/
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# [06:44] <fantasai> DaveCramer: ...
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# [06:45] <fantasai> dc: Looked at JLREQ, realized modeling it on that was impossible
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# [06:45] <fantasai> dc: This is just beginning of what we hope to achieve
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# [06:45] <fantasai> dc: Want to describe what print publishing has been doing for last 100s of years
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# [06:45] <fantasai> dc: And then see what is useful for digitlal books
# [06:45] <Jirka> URL is http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
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# [06:46] <astearns> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html
# [06:46] <fantasai> dc: For this document, just started writing some introductory material and then diving in to start describing, even in simplest cases, what rules are publishers working with on books, what kinds of things do we care about
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# [06:46] <fantasai> dc: brings up a lot of the issues we need to deal with
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# [06:46] <fantasai> dc: Simple example here of fake edition of Moby Dick, illustrate widows/orphans
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# [06:47] <fantasai> dc: brings up concept of what exactly is a page in context of open web platform
# [06:47] <fantasai> dc: concern with position of this particular line in the page, concept of concept of spread
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# [06:47] <fantasai> dc: CSS has a setting for saying how many lines ok to leave at top of page, but in most UAs if you set that, what it does is it moves a line from the previous page
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# [06:48] <fantasai> dc: which horrifies publishing community by having two halves of the spread not aligning
# [06:48] <fantasai> deanJackson: What do they want?
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# [06:48] <fantasai> dc: First step is to go back earlier in that particular chapter and make some change that will make the problem go away
# [06:49] <fantasai> dc: first thing we would try is making the previous spread shorter
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# [06:49] <fantasai> deanJackson: What do you do if it's the first page of the chapter?
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# [06:49] <fantasai> dc: Chapter usually starts a bit down the page, might shift it up a little
# [06:49] <fantasai> ChrisL: These are all manual interventions. Need rules for formatter
# [06:50] <fantasai> dc: Think this problem is mostly solveable conceptually
# [06:50] * fantasai has no power, doesn't know why
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# [06:50] <fantasai> dc: Large aspect of labor going into producing traditional book is solving these kinds of issues
# [06:50] <fantasai> ChrisL: First point, if it's not solveable automatically, then CSS can't do it either
# [06:50] * TabAtkins is back! Had to let the chinchillas out to play. This is not a euphemism.
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# [06:51] <fantasai> ChrisL: If it is solveable and CSS can do it, then saves costs b/c can be done automatically
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# [06:51] <fantasai> dc: Want to follow good craft of layout
# [06:52] <fantasai> dc: If we have that automatic solution,apply that to digital books, will be huge increase in quality of things out there
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# [06:52] <fantasai> Markus: Also scope of what we're trying to do this is both hard-copy formatting, which is a lto of the work that Dave does, to prepare (using HTML+CSS in this case) paper copies
# [06:52] <fantasai> Markus: But also dynamic pagination in reading systems, which ...
# [06:52] <fantasai> Markus: Huge overlap for publisher
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# [06:53] <fantasai> Markus: Cost of doing these recalculations, offline it's okay if it takes a few minutes, but in dynamic ebook environment not so okay
# [06:53] <fantasai> dc: Don't have sense of algorithms for that
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# [06:53] <fantasai> deanJackson: Wanted to do a lot of these in iBooks, but hard to do
# [06:53] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [06:53] * Zakim sees on the phone: Wuzhou_east
# [06:53] <fantasai> dc:Yeah, everything preior in the documen tis sort of in scope, so searching lots of possibilities
# [06:54] <fantasai> deanJackson: Even handling widows and orhpans as we do requires backtracking, which we don't like to do
# [06:54] <fantasai> deanJackson: going back more than one page / column ... :(
# [06:54] <fantasai> s/deanJackson/dino/g
# [06:55] <fantasai> SteveZ: Question comes up, is there a level of degradation that people can live with in the e-environment htat wouldn't be acecptable in print environment, but would be good enough
# [06:55] <fantasai> SteveZ: good enough beats out best
# [06:55] <fantasai> dc grumps about Kindle
# [06:55] <fantasai> dc: I have higher expectations. Don't want to give up without trying
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# [06:55] <fantasai> dc: I want to raise the standards of the digital world to match what's possible in print
# [06:56] <fantasai> dc: Other issues ...
# [06:56] <fantasai> dc: Common example in novels ... I'm calling them space breaks
# [06:56] <astearns> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html#space-breaks-and-ornaments
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# [06:56] * TabAtkins zakim, passcode?
# [06:56] * Zakim saw 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, TabAtkins
# [06:56] <fantasai> dc: blanki line or two where the thought changes or scene changes
# [06:57] <fantasai> dc: at page break, looks like misalignment, so if it falls at page break put in visible element, like asterisks
# [06:57] <fantasai> dc: so want to know if element is at top or bototm of page, to change its appearance. Whole class of things want to change
# [06:57] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [06:57] <fantasai> dc: I dream of :top-of-page pseudo-elements, e.g., to address a whole class of issue shere
# [06:57] <ivan> s/bototm/bottom/
# [06:58] <fantasai> dino: I'm sure our team would love that as well
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# [06:58] <fantasai> dc: As we said, just getting started with this effort
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# [06:58] <fantasai> dc: Filling in some of these sections just to learn how to work with this, what level of deatil isappropriate
# [06:58] <fantasai> dc: Would love to know what you guys would find helpful
# [06:58] <fantasai> dc: what can we do for you, to help make this move forward
# [06:58] <fantasai> dino: Priorities would be an important thing
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# [06:59] <fantasai> dino: For you as the industry to say what is hugely important
# [06:59] <fantasai> dino: especially if you have data to back that up
# [06:59] <fantasai> dino: adn break it down market by market
# [06:59] <fantasai> dino: e.g. maybe widows isn't important in Korean
# [07:00] <fantasai> dc: Talking with others about similar issues in traditional Chinese, e.g. don't want just one character in a column
# [07:00] <fantasai> dc: want a minimal amount of content on a page
# [07:00] <fantasai> dc: etc.
# [07:00] <fantasai> dc: Want ot minimize disruptions as reader goes from one page to another
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# [07:00] <fantasai> dc: So expect lots of commonalities among writing systems
# [07:00] <fantasai> Markus: Request was for, prioritization of all these things, and also locale
# [07:00] <fantasai> breakdown
# [07:01] <fantasai> dino: We're often told by Japanese publishers, if you don't suppot this type of annotations or whatever, its' a showstopper
# [07:01] <fantasai> dino: It would be great to get similar types of priorities
# [07:01] <fantasai> dino: To give another example, italics or obliques in Japanese vertical text
# [07:01] <fantasai> dino: Possibly it's very uncommon, don't need to spend so much time on it
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# [07:01] <fantasai> dino: So would be helpful to know how many ppl actually impacted by this
# [07:01] * Bert thinks of a slider to set the time/quality tradeoff. As computers get faster, the search algorithm can search deeper and find better layouts, even in real time renderers. And authors can add metadata to indicate which aspects are most importan to get right in a given document.
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# [07:02] <fantasai> SteveZ: One other thing you hit upon is, some things the known algorithms involve backtracking
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# [07:02] <fantasai> SteveZ: whereas other things, like asterisks, which don't really force backtracking
# [07:02] <fantasai> SteveZ: so to extent knowing tech used to implement is useful thing to identify as well
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# [07:03] <fantasai> astearns: I don't think you need to prioritize everything in the document against each other, but to surface the highest-priority items
# [07:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Wrt how much detail, more detail is always better
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# [07:03] <fantasai> dino: examples are great
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# [07:04] <fantasai> dino: e.g. looking at your example, I think we implemented widows incorrectly
# [07:05] <fantasai> dc nots that books with short dialog hard to page, 1-line paras great, 3-line paras really hard
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# [07:05] <fantasai> dc: 3/4 of a line stranded on top of page is not so bad as half a hyphenated word
# [07:05] <fantasai> dc: see that in ebooks often, it's noticeably bad
# [07:06] <fantasai> dino: Would also like to see examples of inline images. Never know what to do there
# [07:06] <fantasai> dino: Obviously never want to split an image across a page, ppl say that's bad
# [07:06] <fantasai> dino: But at what point is it better to put onn the page by itself, etc.
# [07:07] <fantasai> dsinger: might shift it down by some lines
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# [07:07] <fantasai> fantasai: float: inline; ?
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# [07:07] <fantasai> dc: Something that comes up a lot in higher-ed textbooks are elaborate series of rules for placement of images and ancillary text. Howe far ca they move away from their reference? What er best practices for stacking floats?
# [07:07] <fantasai> dc: Want to document these and similar issues
# [07:08] <fantasai> Markus; ON the topic of issues to cover or not, discussing scope at high level
# [07:08] <fantasai> Markus: Want to ask thisare there thing sthat we should focus on or omit that would help right now
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# [07:08] <fantasai> Markus: What topics would you like us to prioritize?
# [07:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: one that's currently under discussion is footnotes and their treatment in various columnization strategies would be useful
# [07:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: Another I noticed is captions. Number of different strategies for handling captions, esp when not around the image
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# [07:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: Another thing would be things which are used in print but are also used not in print, and would therefore benefit everyone, that books do better but everyone would appreciate
# [07:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: Would help generate interest for implementers not focused on books
# [07:10] <fantasai> dc: I worke don custom publishing system for textbooks where there were a lot of internal cross-references, e.g. "in next chapter we find x", no next chapter, what do you say
# [07:10] <fantasai> dc: Lots of intersting things to look at there
# [07:11] <fantasai> dino: Interesting to ge feedback on what digital book publishing concepts translate to world without pagination
# [07:11] <fantasai> dino: What then do you do with footnotes
# [07:11] <fantasai> fantasai: position: sticky!
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# [07:11] <fantasai> ChrisL: One characteristic is not just that it's scrollable, but also dynamic. Can just pop-up the reference, right there where you're reading it, rather than at the bottom of the page where you're not
# [07:12] <fantasai> ChrisL: but then you need to be able to shrae the markup
# [07:12] <hober> fantasai: stickily-positioned elements overlap, so that wouldn't fly for multiple footnotes
# [07:12] * myakura is now known as myakura_
# [07:12] * myakura_ is now known as myakura
# [07:12] <fantasai> dino: Would also help for [...]
# [07:12] <TabAtkins> We need to fix the overlap issue for normal stickypos anyway.
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# [07:13] <hober> TabAtkins: it's a feature, not a bug
# [07:13] <fantasai> Bert: Would be helpful also to know fallbacks: if you cannot get the thing X that you really want, then what are alternative solutions that woudl be acceptible?
# [07:13] <fantasai> dc: If I can't get a unicorn, can I get a pony?
# [07:13] <TabAtkins> hober: Not quite. Having stickypos be able to push other stickypos out of the way is what's needed some times, but other times you want to stack them.
# [07:13] * fantasai thinks she agrees with Tab
# [07:13] <fantasai> Markus: Back to pagination
# [07:13] <fantasai> Markus: Spreads,
# [07:13] <fantasai> Markus: Showing 2 pages at same time
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# [07:14] <fantasai> Markus: Very often in textbooks, have boxes that occupy two pages of spread,e.g. an image
# [07:14] <hober> TabAtkins fantasai: i suspect wanting things-with-funky-layout to avoid other things-with-funky-layout is orthogonal to the form of funky layout
# [07:14] <fantasai> markus: are spread behaviors something to go into detail on, or not?
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# [07:14] <TabAtkins> Frex, lots of <h1>s on a page with no <section> elements, overlapping *kinda* works, but not really - transparent backgrounds or different heights ruin it. You want them to push each other out of the wya.
# [07:14] * fantasai disagrees and agrees with Tab
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# [07:15] <TabAtkins> But you want an <h2> to stack under the <h1>, and be pushed away by the following <h2> or <h1>.
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# [07:15] <fantasai> dc: ....
# [07:15] <fantasai> dc: More print-specific than other things here
# [07:15] * sgalineau supports Ted's position:funky proposal
# [07:15] <fantasai> dc: that apply to paginated view in ebook reader
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# [07:15] <fantasai> dc: On the other hand, spreads are kindof like columns, who knows
# [07:16] <fantasai> SteveZ: Still have issue of figures that cross
# [07:16] <fantasai> SteveZ: Is there much of a difference then?
# [07:16] <fantasai> Liam: If you think of a spread as unit you're look ing at at the same time, and consider brochures,
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# [07:16] <fantasai> Liam: then you might have a 6-page spread
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# [07:16] <fantasai> Liam: So have to think a little beyond 2-page spreads
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# [07:17] * fantasai liam++
# [07:17] <fantasai> dc: See things like that in online learning: having thigns side-by-side proves to be a useful ocncept
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# [07:17] * fantasai so many tpos >_<
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# [07:17] <fantasai> r12a: spread .. differences in printing material
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# [07:18] <fantasai> dino: Are you asking are footers and headers and gutters improtant in ebooks? Yes.
# [07:18] <fantasai> fantasai: well, gutters wouldn't be, but footers and headers would be
# [07:18] <fantasai> dc: headers/footers help reader identify context within a long work. Transcends type of media used to render the work
# [07:18] * fantasai position: sticky!
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# [07:19] <fantasai> dc side discussion of gutters and how to chop things like maps so they look good when rinted and bound
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# [07:19] <fantasai> SteveZ: I think you've given us a good beginning, and strongly encourage you to keep going
# [07:19] <fantasai> SteveZ: Everything so far is valuable
# [07:19] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:20] <fantasai> dc: I'm in both WGs, so easy to talk to me. Appreciate comments/criticisms/whatever
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# [07:20] <fantasai> dc: look forwarfd to really interesting arguments on what pages are...
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# [07:20] <fantasai> r12a: Any ideas on how XSL technologies map into things needed here/
# [07:20] <fantasai> r12a: Can say anything about what CSS is doing?
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# [07:21] <fantasai> Liam: Not so easy to answer...
# [07:21] <fantasai> Liam: going forward, during paris f2f, asked about psosibility of starting a task force to do paged media work
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# [07:21] <fantasai> Liam: There was approval for that, but expect in the next couple weeks wrt task force within CSS WG
# [07:21] <fantasai> Liam: to discuss paged media things
# [07:21] <fantasai> Liam: Bigger quesiton wrt XSL:FO, we closed that working group
# [07:22] <fantasai> Liam: Partly because we have many people interested in CSSWG and almost no one joining XSL WG
# [07:22] <fantasai> Liam: ...
# [07:22] <fantasai> Liam: Hopefully we will be pushing forward on areas of CSS that do these things
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# [07:23] <fantasai> ...
# [07:23] <fantasai> [silence]
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# [07:24] <fantasai> dc: So, we're eager to continue on this work and will do what we can to help CSSWG
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# [07:24] <fantasai> dc: Thank you for your time and attention
# [07:24] * Quits: bobby (~bobby@public.cloak) (bobby)
# [07:24] <fantasai> Bert: Before we close, next step? Can we have more often joint sessions?
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# [07:24] <fantasai> Bert: to keep up to date on each others progress
# [07:25] * sgalineau now Bert wants to go faster!
# [07:25] <fantasai> dc: Maybe we can work out some communication method or status update between the groups
# [07:25] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [07:25] * fantasai but still publish rarely and late
# [07:25] <fantasai> Markus: ...
# [07:25] <fantasai> Markus: can dod osmehting like today, but more focused on a particulare issue / area
# [07:26] <fantasai> dc invites ppl to join DigiPub IG
# [07:26] * Quits: mgylling (~mgylling@public.cloak) (mgylling)
# [07:26] <fantasai> Topic closed.
# [07:26] * fantasai dials in
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# [07:26] <fantasai> zakim, code?
# [07:26] <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fantasai
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# [07:27] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
# [07:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins
# [07:27] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [07:27] <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, cwdoh, jeff, kiki, silvia1, emalasky1, koji, lmclist__, Rayberg, myakura, ijongcheol, kimwoonyoung, zqzhang___, Ralph, yamamoto, kawabata2, Dongwon, kennyluck,
# [07:27] <Zakim> ... satakagi, Rossen_, dwim, hayato_, cyril, rhauck, jet, leif, israelh
# [07:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins
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# [07:27] * fantasai TabAtkins, can you hear?
# [07:28] <TabAtkins> I can partially hear the room, yeah.
# [07:28] * fantasai cool
# [07:28] * Parts: Ralph (rswick@public.cloak) (Ralph)
# [07:28] <fantasai> Topic: Outline properties
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# [07:28] * fantasai is getting kinda tired...
# [07:29] * TabAtkins Make somebody else minute, silly.
# [07:29] <fantasai> krit: Would like to discuss outline property
# [07:29] <fantasai> krit: Right now spec says that everypainted thing gets filtered/ blended
# [07:29] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [07:29] <fantasai> krit: Turns out that outline property is also used for focus rings, and that is very important a11y, for this reason, seems not sueful to have the focus ring be filtered etc.
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# [07:29] <fantasai> krit: Should masking/filters/blending not affect the focus ring
# [07:30] <fantasai> dino: what about scrollbars?
# [07:30] <fantasai> krit: Good question, right now even scrollbars are affected
# [07:30] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ... more general issue
# [07:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: also issue of 3d transforms
# [07:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Problem is authors often use as extra border effect
# [07:30] * fantasai nees more volumen from polycom
# [07:31] <fantasai> krit: So you're saying that outlines should be part of rendering, not a11y?
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# [07:31] <fantasai> dbaron: were you talking about outline with scrollbars, or scrollbars with filters?
# [07:31] <fantasai> krit: latter
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# [07:31] <fantasai> krit: I was just focused on outline, but Dean asked what about things like scrollbars
# [07:32] <fantasai> krit: So now we can ask, shoudl filters/blending affect outline/scrollbars
# [07:32] <TabAtkins> Right. While impls use 'outline' to do focus ring, *authors* use 'outline' as a second border.
# [07:32] <fantasai> krit: So key question is outline same as focus ring?
# [07:32] <TabAtkins> And so treating 'outline' as a focus/a11y thing ends up breaking author use.
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# [07:33] <fantasai> dbaron: 2.1 is interesting in a few ways, one is that it actually gives two different options for where outline property can be drawn in painting order
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# [07:33] <fantasai> dbaron: I think that was despite all implementations using one of them, though I think because preference was for impls to switch to other one
# [07:33] <TabAtkins> I think we should just make focus outlines separate and not controllable by authors, only by browser/user prefs.
# [07:33] <fantasai> dbaron: I think outline property was intended to do focus rings
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# [07:33] <fantasai> dbaron: So should do focus ring sright, and if happens to work for other things ifne
# [07:34] <fantasai> dbaron: But we get push back from authors when we do things for making focus rings work right
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# [07:34] <zcorpan> s/ring sright/rings right/
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# [07:34] <zcorpan> s/ifne/fine/
# [07:34] <fantasai> dbaron: If I had done things scratch, I would have made focus ring a pseudo-element with a small set of properties that could apply
# [07:35] <fantasai> krit: Still have question of whether focus ring should be can affected by filters
# [07:35] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [07:35] * TabAtkins D'oh, room dropped.
# [07:35] <TabAtkins> zakim, dial wuzhou_east
# [07:35] <Zakim> ok, TabAtkins; the call is being made
# [07:35] <Zakim> +Wuzhou_east
# [07:35] <Bert> ack wu
# [07:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [07:36] <fantasai> krit: Do we want to discuss focus and outline, or masking
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# [07:37] <SimonSapin> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
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# [07:37] <SimonSapin> krit: I would like to start with a11y of masking & filters
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# [07:37] * Parts: ivan (ivan@public.cloak) (ivan)
# [07:38] <SimonSapin> krit: who thinks a11y of scrollbars on focus rings are a problem?
# [07:38] <SimonSapin> plinss: I think filter effects on scroll bars is asking for troubles
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# [07:38] <SimonSapin> dino: Filters can change position of elemets
# [07:39] <SimonSapin> krit: yes
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# [07:39] <TabAtkins> Scrollbars have long been stylable already, which has potentially bad effects on a11y.
# [07:39] <SimonSapin> dbaron: it is a problem for filters to not affect these things
# [07:39] <TabAtkins> (I'm planning to go ahead and spec that at some point soon.)
# [07:40] <TabAtkins> So I don't see the problem with letting filters affect them too.
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# [07:40] <SimonSapin> _ and it may be a problem for them to affect these things
# [07:40] <SimonSapin> krit: I don’t see a problem with letting filter effects affect them too
# [07:40] <SimonSapin> krit: that doesn’t need to be specified because it’s already the case
# [07:40] <TabAtkins> WebKit/Blink/IE all let you arbitrarily style scrollbars.
# [07:41] <SimonSapin> krit: scrollbars are different from focus rings
# [07:41] <SimonSapin> krit: impl, Firefox and Webkit do in most cases
# [07:41] <SimonSapin> krit: there is an exceeption for SVG
# [07:42] <SimonSapin> krit: HTML, we do filter and mask focus ring
# [07:42] <SimonSapin> krit: Firefox does it for SVG
# [07:43] <SimonSapin> krit: Firefox applies focus ring on everything
# [07:43] <krit> http://codepen.io/adobe/pen/wLrxu
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# [07:43] <SimonSapin> krit: IE does filter and clip the focus ring
# [07:43] <SimonSapin> krit: interop between IE and Firefox
# [07:44] <SimonSapin> krit: do we see a negative effect on a11y? do we care?
# [07:44] <SimonSapin> plinss: potential negative effect, we may want to control
# [07:44] <TabAtkins> I care, but I don't think that making an exception for 'outline' is the solution. I think we should disconnect focus ring from 'outline' and just deal with it.
# [07:44] <SimonSapin> plinss: filter different parts/layer of elements, maybe UI widgets is just another layer
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# [07:45] <SimonSapin> plinss: let it apply for now, later have ability to control
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# [07:45] <SimonSapin> krit: resolve on that?
# [07:45] <TabAtkins> That way focus rings can be more accurate/useful when 3d transformed, etc.
# [07:45] <TabAtkins> +1
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# [07:45] <SimonSapin> Bert: don’t have a solution
# [07:46] <SimonSapin> Bert: concern. 2 kinds of applications. Fancy applications with filters and everything, want control
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# [07:46] <SimonSapin> Bert: other hand, reading a document. Don’t want scrollbars to change
# [07:46] <SimonSapin> Bert: would interfere with ability to read the document
# [07:46] <SimonSapin> Bert: control to the user or author?
# [07:47] <SimonSapin> Bert: switch "I don’t want the author to interfere"
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# [07:47] <TabAtkins> If you're reading a document, and the author's screwing with scrollbars, that's a broken document. ^_^
# [07:47] <SimonSapin> Bert: for myself, go fullscreen for readability. Lost if scrollbars are not there
# [07:48] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: author precedence vs. user precedence, solved with ua, author and user stylesheets
# [07:48] <SimonSapin> ChrisL: you should be able to switch with user stylesheets
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# [07:48] <TabAtkins> * { filter: none; }
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# [07:49] <TabAtkins> * { filter: none; /* I just want to read a document, dammit. */ }
# [07:49] <SimonSapin> Bert: not goo enouhg both way. Filter on scrollback ,but still no control on width of the scrollbar. Already not good enough
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# [07:49] <SimonSapin> krit: not just filters, all effects
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# [07:50] <SimonSapin> krit: fine if we want to fix it in the future to make sites more accessible
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# [07:50] <TabAtkins> Authors can ruin your document reading/scrolling experience already, in plenty of ways, if they're hostile or incompetent.
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# [07:50] <SimonSapin> Bert: even in document mode, some filters might be useful, but for content only
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# [07:50] <TabAtkins> body { overflow: hidden; }, and do all scrolling in JS.
# [07:50] <SimonSapin> krit: now, no resolution for this. Do we want in issue in the spec?
# [07:50] <TabAtkins> overflow:hidden;height:100%;
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# [07:50] <SimonSapin> krit: address the issue later?
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# [07:51] <SimonSapin> plinss: we can defer, but let’s solve if we can
# [07:52] <SimonSapin> krit: we can solve it by saying "it should never affect" or "should affect", Bert wants more control
# [07:52] <SimonSapin> plinss: we can add controls in the future
# [07:52] <SimonSapin> plinss: can we live without it for a while?
# [07:53] <TabAtkins> Again, filters are but one way someone can incompetently ruin someone's experience. It's nothing new, nor is it particularly easy to misuse. We're worrying too much about this.
# [07:53] <SimonSapin> plinss: also concerns, filter on scrollbar may or may not be useful. Do we want to clip? Does it make scrollbars unreachable?
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# [07:54] <SimonSapin> [dbaron reads TabAtkins’s comments]
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# [07:55] <SimonSapin> plinss: can we resolve than filters just affect UI?
# [07:55] <SimonSapin> plinss: as some point work on controls
# [07:55] <dbaron> +1
# [07:55] <SimonSapin> fantasai: leave undefined
# [07:56] <dbaron> dbaron: no need
# [07:56] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Effects affect scrollbars and focus rings. We may work on controls later
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# [07:58] <SimonSapin> Topic: VTT ::cue pseudo-element
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# [08:00] <SimonSapin> plinss: as long as they inform us of this is happening, we’re ok with TTML WG working on this
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# [08:00] <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: CSSWG is find with TTMLWG working on this, with ongoing feedback
# [08:01] <glazou> s/find/fine
# [08:01] <SimonSapin> (yes, thanks glazou)
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# [08:02] <SimonSapin> (discussing topics)
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# [08:02] <ChrisL> party!!
# [08:02] <SimonSapin> plinss: sounds like we’re out of agenda for today
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# [08:03] <glazou> hen is the DigiPub discussion ? already done ?
# [08:03] <fantasai> dino: http://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-decor-3/#text-decoration-skip-property
# [08:03] <SimonSapin> fantasai: counter styles?
# [08:03] <dino> glazou, yes. it is done.
# [08:03] <glazou> glargl
# [08:03] <SimonSapin> fantasai: correcting things in the algorithms
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# [08:03] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0378.html
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# [08:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai: about Hebrew, to support 1000
# [08:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai: need a group separator feature
# [08:04] * TabAtkins can't hear fantasai, but whatever.
# [08:04] <TabAtkins> That's not the open issue.
# [08:04] <glazou> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [08:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-css-minutes.html glazou
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# [08:04] <SimonSapin> fantasai: lots of digits valid in English, separator needed in Hebrew
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# [08:04] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [08:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: spec has no separators now, limits hebrew to small numbers
# [08:05] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (41%), Wuzhou_east (51%)
# [08:05] <TabAtkins> The Hebrew style is acceptable to everyone as it is right now.
# [08:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: could add the feature, solves Hebrew and allows comma for English
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# [08:05] <TabAtkins> The only remaining issue is some feedback about Chinese and Korean informal styles.
# [08:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: do it now, or defer
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# [08:05] <TabAtkins> Defer!
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# [08:06] * astearns you just go ahead and do that, yeah
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# [08:06] <SimonSapin> SteveZ: commenter said he’d never seem numbers beyond that limitation
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# [08:20] * Topic is 'http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2013#agenda'
# [08:20] * Set by plinss on Sun Nov 10 06:15:58
# [08:20] <TabAtkins> I mean, just take the existing table of examples, throw in a bit more numbers with zeros and 1 and groups and oh my.
# [08:20] <leif> ChrisL: We also have a SmartTV implementation on WebKit, so that's WebKit 2, Presto 1
# [08:20] <TabAtkins> That kind fo thing.
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# [08:21] <leif> (I think SmartTV is independent. If the Samsung impl is new, it is.)
# [08:21] <glazou> we will contribute the tests this week
# [08:21] * TabAtkins doesn't understand what's so hard about coming up with a set of rules for writing down numbers you use regularly.
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# [08:21] <glazou> leif, yes
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# [08:22] <glazou> leif, 16 tests per property, some are yours, some are new, some cleaned up
# [08:22] <leif> glazou: sounds like sweet stuff!
# [08:23] <glazou> we want to remove nav-up/left/down/right from at-risk list ASAP
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# [08:24] <glazou> adjourned apparently
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# [08:26] <glazou> wow, not a lot was said during didipub joint meeting except on dauwhe's document
# [08:27] <glazou> surprising
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# [08:27] <glazou> but since everyone's already AT THE BAR !!!
# [08:27] <glazou> ;-)
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# [08:29] <kennyluck> glazou, yeah, that was surprising. I thought the joint meeting would take long.
# [08:29] <glazou> sigh kennyluck
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# [08:33] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
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# [08:39] <glazou> LOL @ https://twitter.com/lmclister/status/399706258132856832
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# [09:09] <astearns> the dpub room is stiflingly hot - need to find a way of piping heat from here to CSS room
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# [09:14] <Zakim> -Wuzhou_east
# [09:14] <Zakim> Team_(css)04:31Z has ended
# [09:14] <Zakim> Attendees were Wuzhou_east, TabAtkins
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# [09:56] <fantasai> Bert: http://www.kspaintings.com/diagrams-css/html/anonymous-block-boxes.html
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# [10:39] <krit> file:///Users/dschulze/Documents/hg/FXTF/geometry/Overview.html#DOMRect
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# [10:39] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMRect
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# [10:41] <Zakim> ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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# [10:45] <fantasai> Bert: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0173.html
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# [11:31] <fantasai> leaverou: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0156.html ?
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# [11:31] <leaverou> fantasai: looking
# [11:38] <leaverou> fantasai: Chrome is not doing the "mathematically correct thing", it's just rounding the radius to 0
# [11:38] <leaverou> and rendering the shadow with 0 radius. Firefox supports supixel lengths, but obviously it also has some precision limits
# [11:39] <leaverou> fantasai: (b) would be a nice solution if it was like this from the beginning, but I'm afraid it's too late for that now
# [11:39] <leaverou> and I think that's what most of the WG will say too
# [11:41] <fantasai> leaverou: the two places incompatibility will show up
# [11:42] <fantasai> leaverou: one is the CSSOM -- border-radius would no longer return 0 as the initial value
# [11:42] <fantasai> leaverou: other is the shape of spread shadows when an author has explicitly *reset* border-radius to zero
# [11:42] <fantasai> leaverou: I'm not sure how common those cases are
# [11:42] <leaverou> resetting border-radius to 0 is very common, box-shadow spread not so much
# [11:42] <leaverou> are you sure these are the only cases?
# [11:43] <fantasai> yeah
# [11:43] <fantasai> it's only affecting spread
# [11:43] <fantasai> when border-radius is zero
# [11:43] <fantasai> in terms of rendering
# [11:43] <fantasai> [bert notes that animating to/from the initial value will break]
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# [12:12] <leaverou> plinss: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0607.html
# [12:14] * Ms2ger wonders if http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.2 is meant to say "CSS level 1 revision 1"
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# [17:46] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That seems unlikely.
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The end :)