/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 11 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  6. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The "how to fragment/print" section.
  7. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The problem for me was that I needed python-dev, too.
  8. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Anyway, it's all corrected in the installation section now.
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  144. # [17:30] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0200.html'
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  147. # [17:30] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  148. # [17:30] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
  149. # [17:31] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  150. # [17:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  163. # [17:51] * astearns is running a bit late, so will be listening in on his trike commute
  164. # [17:52] * tantek is also running a bit late.
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  166. # [17:53] <dael> scribenick: dael
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  170. # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  171. # [17:53] <Zakim> +dael
  172. # [17:53] <Zakim> +??P3
  173. # [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, ??P3 is me
  174. # [17:53] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  175. # [17:54] <Zakim> +Stearns
  176. # [17:54] * astearns bye to irc
  177. # [17:54] * glazou will mute himself because he is caughing a lot
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  180. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  181. # [17:54] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
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  184. # [17:55] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  185. # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P6
  186. # [17:55] <krit> Zakim, P6 is me
  187. # [17:55] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
  188. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P6 is krit
  189. # [17:55] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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  192. # [17:56] <krit> glazou: thanks
  193. # [17:56] <glazou> np
  194. # [17:56] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
  195. # [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
  196. # [17:56] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  197. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P40
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  199. # [17:57] <antonp> Zakim, P40 is me
  200. # [17:57] <Zakim> sorry, antonp, I do not recognize a party named 'P40'
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  202. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P43
  203. # [17:58] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  204. # [17:58] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  205. # [17:58] <Zakim> +Plh
  206. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P43 is me
  207. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  208. # [17:58] <antonp> Zakim, ??P40 is me
  209. # [17:58] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  210. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> … I think
  211. # [17:58] <Zakim> -Stearns
  212. # [17:58] <Zakim> +smfr
  213. # [17:59] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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  215. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  216. # [17:59] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
  217. # [17:59] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  218. # [18:00] <Zakim> +cabanier
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  221. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
  222. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Glenn
  223. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Stearns
  224. # [18:00] <dael_> I hope that I'm not cursed to connectivity issues today. I'll yell if I drop...again.
  225. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P66
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  229. # [18:02] <dael_> plinss Let's get started
  230. # [18:02] <dael_> plh: Any additional items?
  231. # [18:02] <dael_> s/plh/pliniss
  232. # [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  233. # [18:03] <dael_> ???: Please put your name for registration
  234. # [18:03] <dael_> ...: We need to issue badges so you can get in
  235. # [18:03] <plh> s/???/Sylvain/
  236. # [18:03] * plh plans to come
  237. # [18:03] <dael_> ...: The earlier a complete count the better
  238. # [18:03] * ChrisL will be ther and has planes booked
  239. # [18:03] <dael_> plinss: Good time to make travel arrangements
  240. # [18:03] <dael_> Tpoic: Sept F2F
  241. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
  242. # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  243. # [18:04] <dael_> s/tpoic/topic
  244. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dbaron
  245. # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: I believe the AB meeting is the 16-17th Sept
  246. # [18:04] * dbaron succeeds in getting in on the second try with Zakim
  247. # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: I think Bert was offering to host
  248. # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: Optimially if it was near those dates I would only need one trip
  249. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
  250. # [18:04] <dael_> bert: I would prefer after
  251. # [18:05] <glazou> s/bert/krit
  252. # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Any other pref?
  253. # [18:05] <glazou> glazou: me too
  254. # [18:05] <dael_> sylvaing: With TPAC after, it was inconvenient that summer, autumn, and winter were close
  255. # [18:05] <Bert> (TPAC is Oct 27-31)
  256. # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: That is true
  257. # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Week of 22nd would be 4 weeks before
  258. # [18:05] <dael_> SteveZ: If we did the week before that would be okay
  259. # [18:06] <krit> s/SteveZ/krit/
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  261. # [18:06] <dael_> SteveZ: That's fine with me
  262. # [18:06] <dael_> plinss: Bert, any these dates a problem?
  263. # [18:06] * sgalineau is so excited about the Santa Clara Marriott. Thank you, Wuzhou Guest House.
  264. # [18:06] <dael_> ???: TPAC is on Halloween so much be Oct
  265. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
  266. # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: So week of 8-10?
  267. # [18:07] <krit> s/???/krit/
  268. # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: That work for everyone?
  269. # [18:07] * krit is obviously talking too much
  270. # [18:07] <dael_> ChrisL: That's fine for me
  271. # [18:07] <dael_> krit: If we move further from TPAC it's better
  272. # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: Okay, unless we hear other complaints soon, let's call it Sept 8-10
  273. # [18:07] <krit> s/krit/florian/
  274. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  275. # [18:08] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
  276. # [18:08] <dael_> Topics: Compositing and Blending
  277. # [18:08] <dael_> cabanier: I got comments from James Robinson
  278. # [18:08] <dael_> ..: He's asking for something that doesn't require spec changes
  279. # [18:08] <dael_> ...: Should I wait another week to ask for CR?
  280. # [18:08] <dael_> ...: Or does that not stop it?
  281. # [18:08] <dael_> ???: It's obviously a judgement call.
  282. # [18:09] <dael_> ...: If it's ongoing to produce sig. changes you should wait
  283. # [18:09] <dael_> ...: If not you can push it to later
  284. # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: He's asking for something in the spec
  285. # [18:09] <dael_> ???: It's just a clarification your' fine
  286. # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: put in disp. of commments?
  287. # [18:09] <dael_> ???: Yes
  288. # [18:09] <plinss> s/???/ChrisL/
  289. # [18:09] <dael_> ChrisL: Is there something we can look at?
  290. # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: Yes, I'll paste in IRC
  291. # [18:09] <cabanier> doc: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/issues-lc-2013.html
  292. # [18:10] <dael_> ChrisL: One comment, introduce some classes there with colors
  293. # [18:10] <dael_> ...: So someone can see green with agreement etc. That makes it easier
  294. # [18:11] <dael_> ...: You should distinguish between where everyone agreed and everyone talked about it and the person is happy even if they didn't get want the wanted
  295. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
  296. # [18:11] <dael_> cabanier: Okay.
  297. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/issuegen.pl
  298. # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: Above is an example of a color codded one
  299. # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: And 2nd is a template to generate from text
  300. # [18:11] <dael_> cabanier: That's handy
  301. # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: If you do this is spits out instructions and it'll create the HTML
  302. # [18:12] <dael_> ...: There's others you can use, this is the one I wrote
  303. # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: I was surprised when Cameron told me I had to register
  304. # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: I'll update.
  305. # [18:12] <dbaron> I'm a little concerned about the number of parts of the spec marked non-normative.
  306. # [18:12] <dael_> ...: Should I wait for CR is it it fine?
  307. # [18:12] <dael_> plinss: AS long as it's updated for the spec call I think it's okay
  308. # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: The comments from James will be in there
  309. # [18:13] <dael_> ???: I find the spec confusing b/c it has a lot but doesn't provide new properties
  310. # [18:13] <dael_> ...: for example it has a section on knockout groups, but it doesn't have examples
  311. # [18:13] <krit> s/???/smfr/
  312. # [18:13] <dael_> ...: It's very confusing because it has a long section on theroery and I don't know why it's relevent
  313. # [18:13] <dael_> cabanier: It has a lot of normative text
  314. # [18:14] <dbaron> There are a bunch of references to a 'knockout' keyword that's no longer in the draft
  315. # [18:14] <dael_> smfr: I think tech information is fine, they just want to know if they can use it now, use it later, what's being developed
  316. # [18:14] <dael_> ...: It's explaining what it's for
  317. # [18:14] <dael_> ???: Does this need knock-out groups?
  318. # [18:14] <dael_> ???: There isn't an SVG for this, right?
  319. # [18:14] <dael_> cabanier: I don't think anyone impl that
  320. # [18:14] <krit> s/???/smfr/
  321. # [18:14] <dael_> smfr: This loks theroretical
  322. # [18:15] <dael_> ...: I think it should stay
  323. # [18:15] <dauwhe> s/theroery/theory/
  324. # [18:15] <dauwhe> s/loks/looks/
  325. # [18:15] <dael_> dirk: I don't think so. I think there's a bunch of ref. to something that as there before.
  326. # [18:15] <dael_> smfr: Is that for level 2?
  327. # [18:15] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
  328. # [18:15] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
  329. # [18:15] <dael_> smfr: knock-out we've tried for some time, but if it's to level 2 that's okay
  330. # [18:16] <dael_> ???: I thiink there's 2 options. 1 we remove knock-out. 2 we make clear which isn't covered
  331. # [18:16] <krit> s/???/sgalineau/
  332. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  333. # [18:16] <dael_> cabanier: I think we can remove things not covered. I think it can be done in CR
  334. # [18:16] <dael_> cabanier: That 2nd section is informative about how it could
  335. # [18:16] <dael_> smfr: We're removing things not covered so it's confucsing
  336. # [18:17] <dael_> ???: And having a long normative section is dangerious
  337. # [18:17] <dael_> dirk: I think it's not clear what's non-normative
  338. # [18:17] <krit> s/???/smfr/
  339. # [18:17] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
  340. # [18:17] <dael_> ...: Does this section mean what is non normative. Like is 5 non-normative, but 5.1 isn't?
  341. # [18:17] <dael_> cabanier: I should be in the header
  342. # [18:17] <dael_> smfr: It should be an appendix
  343. # [18:17] <smfr> s/smfr/sgalineau
  344. # [18:18] <dael_> dirk: To be clear sections 5, 8, 9, 10 and marked as normative
  345. # [18:18] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
  346. # [18:18] <dael_> dbaron: Does that mean section s 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 don't define anything but property syntax
  347. # [18:18] <dbaron> 5,6,7,8,9,10
  348. # [18:18] <dael_> cabanier: We discussed this and at the time only to prop. were supposed to be marked as non-normative
  349. # [18:18] <dael_> dbaron: Who told you that?
  350. # [18:19] <dael_> cabanier: I don't remember. I can look.
  351. # [18:19] <dael_> plinss: Unless there's a good reason, that's the sort of thing that should be normative
  352. # [18:19] <dael_> ...: You shouldn't have someone impl a blend mode and get diff results
  353. # [18:19] <dael_> smfr: sounds like that should change in the spec. It's important
  354. # [18:19] * sgalineau thinks the backgrounder should be an appendix
  355. # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: Are we in agreement those sections should be normative?
  356. # [18:20] <dael_> ???: We should make it normative in a later version
  357. # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: I think we agreeed earlier that items not referenced should move to the next level
  358. # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: We should shift text from not normative to normative before CR
  359. # [18:21] <dael_> plinss: Do we want to see these changes and then revist going to CR or resolve and see it later
  360. # [18:21] <dael_> smfr: I think it was clear, but some people found it confusing so should we wait to see if this makes it less confusing?
  361. # [18:21] <dael_> ???: This is something we're going to remove is CR, so why not do it now?
  362. # [18:21] <dael_> cabanier: We can do it next week
  363. # [18:21] <dael_> ???: OTherwise it looks like we're removing for no reason
  364. # [18:22] <dael_> cabanier: I wanted to be less confusing in LC. I think I'll make the changes and disc. next week
  365. # [18:22] <dael_> plinss: Agreed. The only problem is editing functionality
  366. # [18:22] <dael_> ???: We're not changing any behaviour
  367. # [18:22] <dael_> plinss: So you have your orders for changes and we'll revist next week
  368. # [18:22] <dael_> Topic: Masking to CR
  369. # [18:23] <dael_> krit: I got comments a few hours ago
  370. # [18:23] * ChrisL dael, feel free to ask who is talking
  371. # [18:23] <dael_> krit: I got fantasai comments
  372. # [18:23] * ChrisL you can also ask zakim - zakim, who is talking?
  373. # [18:23] <dael_> ...: Her comments will delay CR, so I'd like to discuss on ML
  374. # [18:23] <dael_> ...: Since her requests are changing behaviour and names
  375. # [18:23] <dael_> plinss: So you want that before CR?
  376. # [18:23] <dael_> krit: Yes
  377. # [18:23] <dael_> plinss: Let us know when you want to revisit
  378. # [18:24] <dael_> Topic: WebVTT
  379. # [18:24] <dael_> plinss: Everyone should have reviewed for feedback
  380. # [18:24] <dael_> dirk: I promised to review
  381. # [18:24] <dbaron> s/dirk/Bert/
  382. # [18:24] <dael_> krit: I have some comments
  383. # [18:24] <dael_> Sorry!
  384. # [18:24] <dbaron> s/krit/ChrisL/
  385. # [18:24] <ChrisL> I have some too, dirk go first
  386. # [18:25] <dael_> plinss: I heard one person ask for time and one person had feedback
  387. # [18:25] <dael_> ChrisL: I had a little
  388. # [18:25] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  389. # [18:25] <ChrisL> WebVTT specifies certain proerties must be set to particular values,
  390. # [18:25] <dael> ...: There's no object model and if there's and nonsense or disllowed and I'll tell if they're applied or not
  391. # [18:25] <ChrisL> and lists the properties that must apply (the others must be ignored).
  392. # [18:26] <ChrisL> Is it correct that there is no DOM interface to get at the styling
  393. # [18:26] <ChrisL> information, so the only way to see what properties are applied is if
  394. # [18:26] <ChrisL> they have a particular visual effect?
  395. # [18:26] <dael> plinss: Do you have a suggestion for a better way to phrase that?
  396. # [18:26] <dael> ChrisL: I think I'm looking for a change in words
  397. # [18:26] <dael> ...: Saying you can't do these things is odd
  398. # [18:26] <dael> ...: Better to say should not instead of must not
  399. # [18:26] <dael> ...: If you say must you have to test and there's no way to do that
  400. # [18:26] <dael> plinss: Okay, any other feedback?
  401. # [18:27] <dael> plinss: I hear folks need more time to review
  402. # [18:27] <dael> ???: I could do with more time for reading it
  403. # [18:27] <dael> ChrisL: I have a follow-up
  404. # [18:27] <dael> ...: If we want tests for this, currently we can do SVG and HTML test, can we integrate WebVTT?
  405. # [18:27] <dael> plinss: I don't understand how it would be sig. different
  406. # [18:28] <dael> ChrisL: I was asking you
  407. # [18:28] <ChrisL> ok cool
  408. # [18:28] <dael> plinss: I think it's fine
  409. # [18:28] <dael> ???: Would you be able to share the location again in IRC?
  410. # [18:28] <ChrisL> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/text-tracks/raw-file/default/webvtt/Overview.html
  411. # [18:28] <israelh> s/???/israelh
  412. # [18:28] <dael> glenn: Just as a not, VTT is a community group and hasn't enetered into W3C rec track
  413. # [18:29] <dael> ...: also doesn't have a ???? status which is req. before rec track
  414. # [18:29] <dael> ....: Current plan to to take it through the ??? WG
  415. # [18:29] * glazou notes dael is recognizing voices better and better every week
  416. # [18:29] <dael> ...: I wanted to mention that commments might be a bit premature.
  417. # [18:29] <dael> ChrisL: I understood, but I think it's good they asked for feedback earlier
  418. # [18:29] <dael> ...: I think they should be commended for asking early
  419. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Agreed
  420. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Not hearing anything else, but that concerns me
  421. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Do people need more time or are they okay?
  422. # [18:30] <dael> dbaron: I think where they are would add us to add more comments as they find them
  423. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: I just want to make sure it happens.
  424. # [18:31] <SimonSapin> s/dbaron/SteveZ/
  425. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Only question is, all we have is Chris. Do you want to send that yourself?
  426. # [18:31] <dael> ChrisL: Yes. I think it would be good to have something from the chairs saying there may be more later. Tell them they're good for asking.
  427. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Yes
  428. # [18:31] <dael> Topic: will-animate proposal
  429. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Anyone want to speak about it?
  430. # [18:32] * Quits: dael_ (~dael@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  431. # [18:32] <dael> smfr: I can summerize
  432. # [18:32] * ChrisL considers proposing the will-blend property. will it blend?
  433. # [18:32] <dael> smfr: as far as I can understand, it will allow authors to say later they'll change something with an annimation
  434. # [18:32] * glazou suggests the will-we-rename-at-CR property
  435. # [18:32] <dael> smfr: this is a trigger to annow user agent to prepare for an animation to start
  436. # [18:33] <dael> ...: the engine may create something ahead to allow it to work more smoothly
  437. # [18:33] <Zakim> -??P66
  438. # [18:33] <dael> ...: This is exposing impl detail and they may change in future to make this unnecessary or confusing
  439. # [18:33] <dael> ...: I'm not a big fan and I think this could be mis-used to force UI to allocation too much memory
  440. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> q+ stacking contexts
  441. # [18:33] * Zakim sees stacking, contexts on the speaker queue
  442. # [18:34] <glazou> LOL
  443. # [18:34] <dael> dbaron: There were some design details to avoid exposing too much detail
  444. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> well
  445. # [18:34] * krit :D who is stacking context working for?
  446. # [18:34] <dael> dbaron: That said one of the problesms is there are a bunch of properties where everything by default causes stacking
  447. # [18:34] * sgalineau why do we have overflow:auto when we could have will-overflow: maybe
  448. # [18:34] <dael> ....: There's a desire for will-animate to cause that even without a new value
  449. # [18:35] <dael> sylvaing: I want to clarify that this proposale works with stacking behaviour
  450. # [18:35] <dael> smfr: right, and authors cna create stacking now
  451. # [18:35] <glazou> s/sylvaing/SimonSapin
  452. # [18:35] <dael> ...: I don't see the need wfor will-animate to do that
  453. # [18:35] <dael> ...: Is the desire so that later on you create less work for the UI to di?
  454. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: Yes
  455. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: this proposal creates stacking contexts, so it’s not just about performance but also affects behavior
  456. # [18:35] <dael> smfr: In webkit creating a stacking context isn't a lot of work
  457. # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: The work is around creating layizing. When it's not stacking it hast o layerize differently
  458. # [18:36] <dael> smfr: I think that's different between UI
  459. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P9
  460. # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it does. I think it has to do things in a way that makes it inherently more expencive
  461. # [18:36] <tantek> Zakim, ??P9 is tantek
  462. # [18:36] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  463. # [18:36] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  464. # [18:36] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  465. # [18:36] <plinss> ack
  466. # [18:37] <dael> plinss: I also have a lot of concerns for similar reasons
  467. # [18:37] <dael> ...: It's the wrong place of optimization
  468. # [18:37] <dael> ...: What concerns me is adding the stacking. It may be useful because you don't want layering to change with animation, but I'm not seeing that happening
  469. # [18:38] <dael> dbaron: I thinkit's worth talking about why we want this
  470. # [18:38] <dael> ...: There are cases an author knows they want to animate
  471. # [18:38] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  472. # [18:38] <dael> ...: ex touch interface
  473. # [18:38] <dael> ...: When the user touches they know it'll move
  474. # [18:38] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  475. # [18:38] <dael> ...: It's important responce is instant
  476. # [18:38] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  477. # [18:38] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  478. # [18:38] <dael> ...: when we're talking about trying to do touch UI on mobile hardware
  479. # [18:39] <dael> ...: The cost of painting into a layer when it wasn't before is expencive
  480. # [18:39] <dael> ...: ant the cost of optimistically using lots of layers is expencive
  481. # [18:39] <dael> ...: This is a hint
  482. # [18:39] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  483. # [18:39] <dael> ...: Other then change ins tacking, it doesn't have normative req.
  484. # [18:39] <dael> ...: WE haven't been able to get UI with touch to be resoncive without this.
  485. # [18:40] <dael> ...: We need some way to address it and this is the least-bad so far
  486. # [18:40] <dael> plinss: My concern is that this is changing behvaiour, even though you say it's a hint.
  487. # [18:40] <dael> dbaron: That's the problem we wanted a hint and this is what we had
  488. # [18:40] <dael> ...: Authors are doing worse things right now
  489. # [18:40] <dael> ...: They set translate in advance
  490. # [18:41] <dael> ...: I think having something more explicite is better thehn widespread use of hints
  491. # [18:41] <dael> ...: Such as things are faster in webkit if you stick translate Z
  492. # [18:41] <dael> ....: That's the world we're in
  493. # [18:41] <dael> ???: Should we create something meant to be a hint, or should we create a prop. that's also useful
  494. # [18:41] <dael> smfr: that seems better to me
  495. # [18:41] <plinss> s/???/florian/
  496. # [18:41] <glazou> s/???/ChrisL
  497. # [18:41] <glazou> er
  498. # [18:41] <sgalineau> lol
  499. # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: That does create a hint, but it creates seperate ways for spe. properties
  500. # [18:42] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  501. # [18:42] <glazou> s/???/florian
  502. # [18:42] <tantek> s/???/ChrisL
  503. # [18:42] <sgalineau> LOL
  504. # [18:42] <glazou> s/smfr/ChrisL
  505. # [18:42] <glazou> anyway :-)
  506. # [18:42] <dael> plinss: I do agree that is the desire is to create stacking context a prop is better
  507. # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: The desire isn't to create stacking context, the desire is anim. to pref better
  508. # [18:43] <dael> ChrisL: I'm agreeing with dbaron.
  509. # [18:43] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
  510. # [18:43] <dael> ChrisL: I also thinkt hat just creating stacking isn't enough for us to eff. run an animation without a hickup
  511. # [18:43] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  512. # [18:43] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
  513. # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: It's not enough, but it's a good side effect
  514. # [18:43] <dael> smfr: I think that's fine
  515. # [18:43] <dael> plinss: does it always create stacking, or only with some prop.
  516. # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: I don't know
  517. # [18:44] <dael> plinss: I'd like to see stacking be a mod of another prop and see if it needs to be explicit.
  518. # [18:44] <dael> ...: I'd liket og et rid of the hacks.
  519. # [18:44] * sgalineau well, one could argue CSS already has a will-create-stacking-context property, with initial value 'sometimes'
  520. # [18:44] <dael> dbaron: I think req. it's two prop makes people set two prop
  521. # [18:44] <dael> ???: on the other hand, with everything that's stacking today you'd be giving the illusion that you'll be able to put everything in context with a sep prop.
  522. # [18:45] <tantek> s/???/Rossen
  523. # [18:45] <dael> ??: So everything that creates a stacking context with auto meanst hat auto just is computed as force.
  524. # [18:45] <dael> ??: You could do that without an opportunity for turning it off.
  525. # [18:45] <glazou> s/??/florian
  526. # [18:45] <tantek> s/??/Florian
  527. # [18:45] <tantek> s/??/Florian
  528. # [18:46] <dael> ?: Like Simon pointed out, we're trying to find something animatable in it's proper context.
  529. # [18:46] <tantek> s/?/Rossen
  530. # [18:46] <dael> Rossen: I particularly favor a sep. property instead of stacking
  531. # [18:46] <dael> plinss: My otehr q is isn't there some way to look ahead through existing style and guess.
  532. # [18:46] <tantek> "you never know what someone is going to do in Javascript" [seriously]
  533. # [18:46] <tantek> (smfr)
  534. # [18:46] <dael> ...: If the issue is we're looking for something in JS it's an API not a property
  535. # [18:47] <dael> ???: The animation is run through CSS not API
  536. # [18:47] <tantek> s/???/Rossen
  537. # [18:47] <dael> ??: That's odd. it it's in CSS we should figure it out.
  538. # [18:47] <tantek> s/??/Florian
  539. # [18:47] <dael> ...: If it's b/c there's JS in the middle we should address that
  540. # [18:47] <dael> smfr: If you're using CSS we should fix it
  541. # [18:48] <dael> dbaron: the other prob is that if authors want to rely on this they want to know huristics
  542. # [18:48] <dael> ...: I think it's good to give authors reliablity in what perf. they can expect
  543. # [18:48] <dael> ...: and not say it's undefined
  544. # [18:48] <dael> florian: It still feels like this is close to a prop.
  545. # [18:48] <dael> ...: It says do what I say, but factor
  546. # [18:48] <tantek> s/factor/faster
  547. # [18:48] * sgalineau agrees that if the impact of this property is unclear or varies across browsers its usefulness is questionable
  548. # [18:49] <dael> ChrisL: It's saying prepare yourself for a future CSS prop change
  549. # [18:49] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
  550. # [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: Does anyone know if animation spec is trying to address this?
  551. # [18:49] <dael> smfr: I don' think so
  552. # [18:49] <florian> s/it says do/that says do/
  553. # [18:50] <dael> smfr: I'm happy for this to conitue if someone on ML summerizes current proposal state
  554. # [18:50] <dbaron> s/animation spec/web animations spec/
  555. # [18:50] <dael> plinss: Can someone write up summary?
  556. # [18:50] <dael> ...: post it to ML?
  557. # [18:50] <dael> dbaron: I can poke someone and see if they can
  558. # [18:50] <dael> plinss: Then disc. will cont on ML
  559. # [18:50] <dael> Topic: interpolate() proposal
  560. # [18:50] <glazou> she is not here
  561. # [18:50] <dael> plinss: lea had a proposal.
  562. # [18:51] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
  563. # [18:51] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  564. # [18:51] <dael> plinss: None of the part are here. Should we defer?
  565. # [18:51] <dael> Topic: :sorted pseudoclass
  566. # [18:51] <dael> plinss: This was from Tab and we can discuss here
  567. # [18:51] <dael> ...: add a psudeoclass adding HTML sorting model
  568. # [18:51] <dael> ...: Anyone have through?
  569. # [18:52] <dael> glazou: I made a comment on ML bc I think current prop. is not enough
  570. # [18:52] <tantek> would this also apply to <ol reversed> ?
  571. # [18:52] <dael> ...: It doesn't deal with columns that you don't sorty
  572. # [18:52] <dael> ...: If you haev a list of items with an index and you want index to remained ordered, it won't deal with that
  573. # [18:52] <dael> ...: I think it's a good start to match HTML5 and we need toe xtend to be complete
  574. # [18:53] <dael> ...: It's something web authors are doing more and more. We need a way to present to the viewer
  575. # [18:53] <tantek> q+ to ask about applying to <ol reversed> as well as tables
  576. # [18:53] * Zakim sees stacking, contexts, tantek on the speaker queue
  577. # [18:53] <sgalineau> doesn't understand; if you leave your table as-is then it can't be re-sorted, right?
  578. # [18:53] <dael> plinss: My q is that we need to extend sorting model of HTML, not CSS
  579. # [18:53] <dael> ...: Are you saying CSS should override the display of the table.
  580. # [18:53] <dael> glazou: The columns sorted with select a column if it's sorted in another place
  581. # [18:54] <dael> ...: We can't select if it's not sorted
  582. # [18:54] <dael> plinss: Wouldn't that be column-not sorted
  583. # [18:54] <tantek> :sorted does not alter the sorting of the table/column/list
  584. # [18:54] <dael> glazou: That's not possible
  585. # [18:54] <dael> ...: It's a bit verbose
  586. # [18:54] <dael> plinss: The proposal was just about if it's sorted or not
  587. # [18:54] <dael> glazou: I had anotehr comment about the arguement that is for determaning only in index
  588. # [18:54] <dael> ...: may way to extend to range
  589. # [18:55] <plinss> :not(:sorted)
  590. # [18:55] <dael> ...: If you sort on multiple columns you may want to sort all without selecting individual
  591. # [18:55] <dael> ...: Other then that I think we should cont. It's needed
  592. # [18:55] <dael> plinss: Any obj to adding this to selectors 4?
  593. # [18:55] <dael> bert: You would want to know if table is sorted
  594. # [18:55] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
  595. # [18:55] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
  596. # [18:56] <dael> ...: You can do that with subject slector, but may be easier to have psudo on the who table
  597. # [18:56] <dael> s/who.whole
  598. # [18:56] <dael> s/who/whole
  599. # [18:56] <dael> glenn: the only comment is I had was should that aplly to tables too, other then normally ordered?
  600. # [18:56] <tantek> s/glenn/tantek
  601. # [18:56] <dael> plinss: That's an interesting point. I don't see why not
  602. # [18:57] <tantek> s/apply to tables too/apply to ordered lists too
  603. # [18:57] <dael> RESOLVED: Add :sorted to selectors 4
  604. # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
  605. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Glenn
  606. # [18:57] <glazou> dael, action on me
  607. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Plh
  608. # [18:57] <dael> plinss: Thank you everyone
  609. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
  610. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  611. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
  612. # [18:57] <Zakim> -cabanier
  613. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
  614. # [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
  615. # [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
  616. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  617. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
  618. # [18:57] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  619. # [18:57] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  620. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Stearns
  621. # [18:57] <Zakim> -plinss
  622. # [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
  623. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  624. # [18:57] <Zakim> -tantek
  625. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  626. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  627. # [18:57] <Zakim> -antonp
  628. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  629. # [18:57] <dael> Action: glazou add :sorted to selectors 4
  630. # [18:57] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  631. # [18:57] * RRSAgent records action 4
  632. # [18:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-602 - Add :sorted to selectors 4 [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-18].
  633. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
  634. # [18:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  635. # [18:57] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, Stearns, dauwhe, krit, SylvaIng, plinss, Plh, SimonSapin, antonp, smfr, SteveZ, florian, cabanier, Bert, Glenn, ChrisL, dbaron, fantasai, [Bloomberg],
  636. # [18:57] <Zakim> ... tantek, Rossen_
  637. # [18:57] <glazou> thanks dael
  638. # [18:57] * Parts: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) (florian)
  639. # [18:57] <tantek> thanks dael!
  640. # [18:58] <dael> thanks everyone!
  641. # [18:58] <dael> I'll learn everyone's voice one day ^-^
  642. # [18:58] <tantek> q-
  643. # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  644. # [18:58] <Rossen_> Thank you Dael!
  645. # [18:58] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) ("Client combusted")
  646. # [18:58] <glazou> dael, where are you based ?
  647. # [18:58] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
  648. # [18:58] <glazou> d'oh
  649. # [18:58] <tantek> apparently not in irc ;)
  650. # [18:58] <glazou> eheh
  651. # [18:59] <tantek> hey whatever happened to ::selection?
  652. # [19:01] <Bert> ::selection proved difficult to define. But now that we are working on generic region styling, it should probably be added there, i.e., in the Regions spec.
  653. # [19:01] <tantek> ugh that sounds a bit awkward
  654. # [19:02] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
  655. # [19:02] <tantek> it involves a lot of user interaction more than layout
  656. # [19:02] <sgalineau> yes, not sure what it has to do with Regions.
  657. # [19:02] <Bert> Yes, but the difficult part was defining the inheritance of style, and that is what Regions is about.
  658. # [19:04] <astearns> Bert: are you talking about adding a selector after ::selection, the way it's done with ::region and ::content?
  659. # [19:05] <tantek> I'm not sure I want to conflate ::selection inheritance and ::region inheritance
  660. # [19:05] <glazou> I don't think ::selection belongs to Regions
  661. # [19:05] <tantek> we already have multiple unprefixed implementations of ::selection which to me means we need to test/document existing interop behavior of *that*, rather than try to combine it with Regions
  662. # [19:05] <glazou> it's independent
  663. # [19:05] <tantek> glazou - we are agreed.
  664. # [19:05] * glazou is with tantek
  665. # [19:06] <astearns> I am too, but I'd like to understand the point Bert was trying to make
  666. # [19:06] <glazou> sure
  667. # [19:08] <Bert> We also discussed restricting the properties that apply to ::selection to just the easy ones. But otherwise styling a P that is partly in region a and partly in region b is the same problem as styling a P that is partly in ::selection and partly not.
  668. # [19:09] <glazou> ok that argument is that ::selection has relationship with fragmentation ; I agree with that
  669. # [19:10] <Bert> Which is probably the same problem as styling a P that is both in the body and in a running header (if we decide we need to duplicate elements for running headers).
  670. # [19:10] <tantek> re: restricting properties that apply to ::selection - I propose we choose the set of properties that have been interop implemented for ::selection across existing implementations.
  671. # [19:10] <glazou> well
  672. # [19:10] <tantek> at least to get *something* spec'd that authors can depend on.
  673. # [19:10] <glazou> we chose originally to restrict to properties triggering a repaing and not a reflow
  674. # [19:10] <glazou> repaint
  675. # [19:11] <tantek> glazou - agreed, and I want to subset that according to actual implementation today.
  676. # [19:11] <glazou> agreed
  677. # [19:11] <tantek> we can always expand it in an iteration later.
  678. # [19:11] <glazou> absolutely
  679. # [19:13] * tantek is having a temporary lapse of judgment and is tempted to add ::selection back to CSS3-UI based on the above criteria.
  680. # [19:13] <glazou> LOL
  681. # [19:14] <tantek> since it was here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511/#pseudo-elements
  682. # [19:14] <tantek> and we now have a much better understanding of its limitations.
  683. # [19:14] * tantek will capture it in an issue :/
  684. # [19:15] <glazou> ::selection was in my first Selectors 3 draft I think, eons ago
  685. # [19:15] <glazou> probably back in 1999
  686. # [19:16] * tantek does some digging
  687. # [19:16] <glazou> spec archeology is always fun :-d
  688. # [19:16] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  689. # [19:17] <tantek> glazou - not quite 1999. made it into 2000-04-10 draft which I co-edited so I don't know which of us added it. http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-css3-selectors-20000410#UIfragments
  690. # [19:18] <tantek> glazou - I think it was me - first reference found here: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-css3-userint-19990916#pseudo-selection
  691. # [19:19] <tantek> so yes, 1999 introduced. 2000 incorporated into Selectors.
  692. # [19:19] * tantek is feeling the weight of specification debt.
  693. # [19:20] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
  694. # [19:21] * tantek will avoid the temptation to include IE5.1/Mac in the set of browsers to test :selection, ::selection interop for specification purposes.
  695. # [19:23] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
  696. # [19:25] <glazou> tantek, and I did an implem in Gecko too, because of yours, after *that* crepes dinner
  697. # [19:25] <tantek> *which* crepes dinner - so many I forget
  698. # [19:26] <tantek> was it a Ti Couz?
  699. # [19:26] <glazou> exactly
  700. # [19:26] <tantek> (which is sadly now closed :( )
  701. # [19:26] <tantek> glazou I feel old :(
  702. # [19:26] <glazou> the one when you challenged me to implement :not() overnight
  703. # [19:26] <glazou> :)
  704. # [19:27] <glazou> if you feel old, what should I say eh
  705. # [19:33] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  706. # [19:35] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) ("dinner time in Europe...")
  707. # [19:48] <tantek> Bert, sgalineau, astearns - re-adding ::selection captured as CSS3-UI issue 30 per above discussion: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30
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  711. # [20:11] <tantek> email to list sent
  712. # [20:15] <krit> fantasai: I think I covered all your comments on http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/issues-lc-2013.html
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  721. # [21:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  730. # [22:15] <krit> fantasai: Hi, I incorporated some of your feedback and would like to ask you if I can close issues 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20, 21 (removed the note from the spec) and 22. I can also ask on the mailing list if you prefer that.
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  743. # [23:51] <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, do you know if Dael will be sponsored to attend the Seattle meeting?
  744. # [23:57] <SimonSapin> oh, great. "*Non-US state/province (limit 4 characters)"
  745. # Session Close: Thu Dec 12 00:00:00 2013

The end :)