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- # Session Start: Wed Dec 11 00:00:01 2013
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The "how to fragment/print" section.
- # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The problem for me was that I needed python-dev, too.
- # [00:30] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Anyway, it's all corrected in the installation section now.
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- # [17:30] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0200.html'
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- # [17:30] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:30] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
- # [17:31] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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- # [17:51] * astearns is running a bit late, so will be listening in on his trike commute
- # [17:52] * tantek is also running a bit late.
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- # [17:53] <dael> scribenick: dael
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- # [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +dael
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +??P3
- # [17:53] <glazou> Zakim, ??P3 is me
- # [17:53] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [17:54] <Zakim> +Stearns
- # [17:54] * astearns bye to irc
- # [17:54] * glazou will mute himself because he is caughing a lot
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- # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
- # [17:54] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
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- # [17:55] <Zakim> +dauwhe
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +??P6
- # [17:55] <krit> Zakim, P6 is me
- # [17:55] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
- # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P6 is krit
- # [17:55] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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- # [17:56] <krit> glazou: thanks
- # [17:56] <glazou> np
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
- # [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
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- # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P40
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- # [17:57] <antonp> Zakim, P40 is me
- # [17:57] <Zakim> sorry, antonp, I do not recognize a party named 'P40'
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- # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P43
- # [17:58] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
- # [17:58] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +Plh
- # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P43 is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
- # [17:58] <antonp> Zakim, ??P40 is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
- # [17:58] <SimonSapin> … I think
- # [17:58] <Zakim> -Stearns
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +smfr
- # [17:59] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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- # [17:59] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
- # [17:59] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
- # [17:59] <Zakim> +florian; got it
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +cabanier
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- # [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +Glenn
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +Stearns
- # [18:00] <dael_> I hope that I'm not cursed to connectivity issues today. I'll yell if I drop...again.
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P66
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- # [18:02] <dael_> plinss Let's get started
- # [18:02] <dael_> plh: Any additional items?
- # [18:02] <dael_> s/plh/pliniss
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisL
- # [18:03] <dael_> ???: Please put your name for registration
- # [18:03] <dael_> ...: We need to issue badges so you can get in
- # [18:03] <plh> s/???/Sylvain/
- # [18:03] * plh plans to come
- # [18:03] <dael_> ...: The earlier a complete count the better
- # [18:03] * ChrisL will be ther and has planes booked
- # [18:03] <dael_> plinss: Good time to make travel arrangements
- # [18:03] <dael_> Tpoic: Sept F2F
- # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
- # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
- # [18:04] <dael_> s/tpoic/topic
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +dbaron
- # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: I believe the AB meeting is the 16-17th Sept
- # [18:04] * dbaron succeeds in getting in on the second try with Zakim
- # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: I think Bert was offering to host
- # [18:04] <dael_> SteveZ: Optimially if it was near those dates I would only need one trip
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
- # [18:04] <dael_> bert: I would prefer after
- # [18:05] <glazou> s/bert/krit
- # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Any other pref?
- # [18:05] <glazou> glazou: me too
- # [18:05] <dael_> sylvaing: With TPAC after, it was inconvenient that summer, autumn, and winter were close
- # [18:05] <Bert> (TPAC is Oct 27-31)
- # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: That is true
- # [18:05] <dael_> plinss: Week of 22nd would be 4 weeks before
- # [18:05] <dael_> SteveZ: If we did the week before that would be okay
- # [18:06] <krit> s/SteveZ/krit/
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- # [18:06] <dael_> SteveZ: That's fine with me
- # [18:06] <dael_> plinss: Bert, any these dates a problem?
- # [18:06] * sgalineau is so excited about the Santa Clara Marriott. Thank you, Wuzhou Guest House.
- # [18:06] <dael_> ???: TPAC is on Halloween so much be Oct
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
- # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: So week of 8-10?
- # [18:07] <krit> s/???/krit/
- # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: That work for everyone?
- # [18:07] * krit is obviously talking too much
- # [18:07] <dael_> ChrisL: That's fine for me
- # [18:07] <dael_> krit: If we move further from TPAC it's better
- # [18:07] <dael_> plinss: Okay, unless we hear other complaints soon, let's call it Sept 8-10
- # [18:07] <krit> s/krit/florian/
- # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
- # [18:08] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
- # [18:08] <dael_> Topics: Compositing and Blending
- # [18:08] <dael_> cabanier: I got comments from James Robinson
- # [18:08] <dael_> ..: He's asking for something that doesn't require spec changes
- # [18:08] <dael_> ...: Should I wait another week to ask for CR?
- # [18:08] <dael_> ...: Or does that not stop it?
- # [18:08] <dael_> ???: It's obviously a judgement call.
- # [18:09] <dael_> ...: If it's ongoing to produce sig. changes you should wait
- # [18:09] <dael_> ...: If not you can push it to later
- # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: He's asking for something in the spec
- # [18:09] <dael_> ???: It's just a clarification your' fine
- # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: put in disp. of commments?
- # [18:09] <dael_> ???: Yes
- # [18:09] <plinss> s/???/ChrisL/
- # [18:09] <dael_> ChrisL: Is there something we can look at?
- # [18:09] <dael_> cabanier: Yes, I'll paste in IRC
- # [18:09] <cabanier> doc: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/issues-lc-2013.html
- # [18:10] <dael_> ChrisL: One comment, introduce some classes there with colors
- # [18:10] <dael_> ...: So someone can see green with agreement etc. That makes it easier
- # [18:11] <dael_> ...: You should distinguish between where everyone agreed and everyone talked about it and the person is happy even if they didn't get want the wanted
- # [18:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
- # [18:11] <dael_> cabanier: Okay.
- # [18:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/issuegen.pl
- # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: Above is an example of a color codded one
- # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: And 2nd is a template to generate from text
- # [18:11] <dael_> cabanier: That's handy
- # [18:11] <dael_> fantasai: If you do this is spits out instructions and it'll create the HTML
- # [18:12] <dael_> ...: There's others you can use, this is the one I wrote
- # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: I was surprised when Cameron told me I had to register
- # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: I'll update.
- # [18:12] <dbaron> I'm a little concerned about the number of parts of the spec marked non-normative.
- # [18:12] <dael_> ...: Should I wait for CR is it it fine?
- # [18:12] <dael_> plinss: AS long as it's updated for the spec call I think it's okay
- # [18:12] <dael_> cabanier: The comments from James will be in there
- # [18:13] <dael_> ???: I find the spec confusing b/c it has a lot but doesn't provide new properties
- # [18:13] <dael_> ...: for example it has a section on knockout groups, but it doesn't have examples
- # [18:13] <krit> s/???/smfr/
- # [18:13] <dael_> ...: It's very confusing because it has a long section on theroery and I don't know why it's relevent
- # [18:13] <dael_> cabanier: It has a lot of normative text
- # [18:14] <dbaron> There are a bunch of references to a 'knockout' keyword that's no longer in the draft
- # [18:14] <dael_> smfr: I think tech information is fine, they just want to know if they can use it now, use it later, what's being developed
- # [18:14] <dael_> ...: It's explaining what it's for
- # [18:14] <dael_> ???: Does this need knock-out groups?
- # [18:14] <dael_> ???: There isn't an SVG for this, right?
- # [18:14] <dael_> cabanier: I don't think anyone impl that
- # [18:14] <krit> s/???/smfr/
- # [18:14] <dael_> smfr: This loks theroretical
- # [18:15] <dael_> ...: I think it should stay
- # [18:15] <dauwhe> s/theroery/theory/
- # [18:15] <dauwhe> s/loks/looks/
- # [18:15] <dael_> dirk: I don't think so. I think there's a bunch of ref. to something that as there before.
- # [18:15] <dael_> smfr: Is that for level 2?
- # [18:15] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
- # [18:15] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
- # [18:15] <dael_> smfr: knock-out we've tried for some time, but if it's to level 2 that's okay
- # [18:16] <dael_> ???: I thiink there's 2 options. 1 we remove knock-out. 2 we make clear which isn't covered
- # [18:16] <krit> s/???/sgalineau/
- # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:16] <dael_> cabanier: I think we can remove things not covered. I think it can be done in CR
- # [18:16] <dael_> cabanier: That 2nd section is informative about how it could
- # [18:16] <dael_> smfr: We're removing things not covered so it's confucsing
- # [18:17] <dael_> ???: And having a long normative section is dangerious
- # [18:17] <dael_> dirk: I think it's not clear what's non-normative
- # [18:17] <krit> s/???/smfr/
- # [18:17] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
- # [18:17] <dael_> ...: Does this section mean what is non normative. Like is 5 non-normative, but 5.1 isn't?
- # [18:17] <dael_> cabanier: I should be in the header
- # [18:17] <dael_> smfr: It should be an appendix
- # [18:17] <smfr> s/smfr/sgalineau
- # [18:18] <dael_> dirk: To be clear sections 5, 8, 9, 10 and marked as normative
- # [18:18] <krit> s/dirk/dbaron/
- # [18:18] <dael_> dbaron: Does that mean section s 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 don't define anything but property syntax
- # [18:18] <dbaron> 5,6,7,8,9,10
- # [18:18] <dael_> cabanier: We discussed this and at the time only to prop. were supposed to be marked as non-normative
- # [18:18] <dael_> dbaron: Who told you that?
- # [18:19] <dael_> cabanier: I don't remember. I can look.
- # [18:19] <dael_> plinss: Unless there's a good reason, that's the sort of thing that should be normative
- # [18:19] <dael_> ...: You shouldn't have someone impl a blend mode and get diff results
- # [18:19] <dael_> smfr: sounds like that should change in the spec. It's important
- # [18:19] * sgalineau thinks the backgrounder should be an appendix
- # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: Are we in agreement those sections should be normative?
- # [18:20] <dael_> ???: We should make it normative in a later version
- # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: I think we agreeed earlier that items not referenced should move to the next level
- # [18:20] <dael_> plinss: We should shift text from not normative to normative before CR
- # [18:21] <dael_> plinss: Do we want to see these changes and then revist going to CR or resolve and see it later
- # [18:21] <dael_> smfr: I think it was clear, but some people found it confusing so should we wait to see if this makes it less confusing?
- # [18:21] <dael_> ???: This is something we're going to remove is CR, so why not do it now?
- # [18:21] <dael_> cabanier: We can do it next week
- # [18:21] <dael_> ???: OTherwise it looks like we're removing for no reason
- # [18:22] <dael_> cabanier: I wanted to be less confusing in LC. I think I'll make the changes and disc. next week
- # [18:22] <dael_> plinss: Agreed. The only problem is editing functionality
- # [18:22] <dael_> ???: We're not changing any behaviour
- # [18:22] <dael_> plinss: So you have your orders for changes and we'll revist next week
- # [18:22] <dael_> Topic: Masking to CR
- # [18:23] <dael_> krit: I got comments a few hours ago
- # [18:23] * ChrisL dael, feel free to ask who is talking
- # [18:23] <dael_> krit: I got fantasai comments
- # [18:23] * ChrisL you can also ask zakim - zakim, who is talking?
- # [18:23] <dael_> ...: Her comments will delay CR, so I'd like to discuss on ML
- # [18:23] <dael_> ...: Since her requests are changing behaviour and names
- # [18:23] <dael_> plinss: So you want that before CR?
- # [18:23] <dael_> krit: Yes
- # [18:23] <dael_> plinss: Let us know when you want to revisit
- # [18:24] <dael_> Topic: WebVTT
- # [18:24] <dael_> plinss: Everyone should have reviewed for feedback
- # [18:24] <dael_> dirk: I promised to review
- # [18:24] <dbaron> s/dirk/Bert/
- # [18:24] <dael_> krit: I have some comments
- # [18:24] <dael_> Sorry!
- # [18:24] <dbaron> s/krit/ChrisL/
- # [18:24] <ChrisL> I have some too, dirk go first
- # [18:25] <dael_> plinss: I heard one person ask for time and one person had feedback
- # [18:25] <dael_> ChrisL: I had a little
- # [18:25] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
- # [18:25] <ChrisL> WebVTT specifies certain proerties must be set to particular values,
- # [18:25] <dael> ...: There's no object model and if there's and nonsense or disllowed and I'll tell if they're applied or not
- # [18:25] <ChrisL> and lists the properties that must apply (the others must be ignored).
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> Is it correct that there is no DOM interface to get at the styling
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> information, so the only way to see what properties are applied is if
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> they have a particular visual effect?
- # [18:26] <dael> plinss: Do you have a suggestion for a better way to phrase that?
- # [18:26] <dael> ChrisL: I think I'm looking for a change in words
- # [18:26] <dael> ...: Saying you can't do these things is odd
- # [18:26] <dael> ...: Better to say should not instead of must not
- # [18:26] <dael> ...: If you say must you have to test and there's no way to do that
- # [18:26] <dael> plinss: Okay, any other feedback?
- # [18:27] <dael> plinss: I hear folks need more time to review
- # [18:27] <dael> ???: I could do with more time for reading it
- # [18:27] <dael> ChrisL: I have a follow-up
- # [18:27] <dael> ...: If we want tests for this, currently we can do SVG and HTML test, can we integrate WebVTT?
- # [18:27] <dael> plinss: I don't understand how it would be sig. different
- # [18:28] <dael> ChrisL: I was asking you
- # [18:28] <ChrisL> ok cool
- # [18:28] <dael> plinss: I think it's fine
- # [18:28] <dael> ???: Would you be able to share the location again in IRC?
- # [18:28] <ChrisL> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/text-tracks/raw-file/default/webvtt/Overview.html
- # [18:28] <israelh> s/???/israelh
- # [18:28] <dael> glenn: Just as a not, VTT is a community group and hasn't enetered into W3C rec track
- # [18:29] <dael> ...: also doesn't have a ???? status which is req. before rec track
- # [18:29] <dael> ....: Current plan to to take it through the ??? WG
- # [18:29] * glazou notes dael is recognizing voices better and better every week
- # [18:29] <dael> ...: I wanted to mention that commments might be a bit premature.
- # [18:29] <dael> ChrisL: I understood, but I think it's good they asked for feedback earlier
- # [18:29] <dael> ...: I think they should be commended for asking early
- # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Agreed
- # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Not hearing anything else, but that concerns me
- # [18:30] <dael> plinss: Do people need more time or are they okay?
- # [18:30] <dael> dbaron: I think where they are would add us to add more comments as they find them
- # [18:30] <dael> plinss: I just want to make sure it happens.
- # [18:31] <SimonSapin> s/dbaron/SteveZ/
- # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Only question is, all we have is Chris. Do you want to send that yourself?
- # [18:31] <dael> ChrisL: Yes. I think it would be good to have something from the chairs saying there may be more later. Tell them they're good for asking.
- # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Yes
- # [18:31] <dael> Topic: will-animate proposal
- # [18:31] <dael> plinss: Anyone want to speak about it?
- # [18:32] * Quits: dael_ (~dael@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:32] <dael> smfr: I can summerize
- # [18:32] * ChrisL considers proposing the will-blend property. will it blend?
- # [18:32] <dael> smfr: as far as I can understand, it will allow authors to say later they'll change something with an annimation
- # [18:32] * glazou suggests the will-we-rename-at-CR property
- # [18:32] <dael> smfr: this is a trigger to annow user agent to prepare for an animation to start
- # [18:33] <dael> ...: the engine may create something ahead to allow it to work more smoothly
- # [18:33] <Zakim> -??P66
- # [18:33] <dael> ...: This is exposing impl detail and they may change in future to make this unnecessary or confusing
- # [18:33] <dael> ...: I'm not a big fan and I think this could be mis-used to force UI to allocation too much memory
- # [18:33] <SimonSapin> q+ stacking contexts
- # [18:33] * Zakim sees stacking, contexts on the speaker queue
- # [18:34] <glazou> LOL
- # [18:34] <dael> dbaron: There were some design details to avoid exposing too much detail
- # [18:34] <SimonSapin> well
- # [18:34] * krit :D who is stacking context working for?
- # [18:34] <dael> dbaron: That said one of the problesms is there are a bunch of properties where everything by default causes stacking
- # [18:34] * sgalineau why do we have overflow:auto when we could have will-overflow: maybe
- # [18:34] <dael> ....: There's a desire for will-animate to cause that even without a new value
- # [18:35] <dael> sylvaing: I want to clarify that this proposale works with stacking behaviour
- # [18:35] <dael> smfr: right, and authors cna create stacking now
- # [18:35] <glazou> s/sylvaing/SimonSapin
- # [18:35] <dael> ...: I don't see the need wfor will-animate to do that
- # [18:35] <dael> ...: Is the desire so that later on you create less work for the UI to di?
- # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: Yes
- # [18:35] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: this proposal creates stacking contexts, so it’s not just about performance but also affects behavior
- # [18:35] <dael> smfr: In webkit creating a stacking context isn't a lot of work
- # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: The work is around creating layizing. When it's not stacking it hast o layerize differently
- # [18:36] <dael> smfr: I think that's different between UI
- # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P9
- # [18:36] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it does. I think it has to do things in a way that makes it inherently more expencive
- # [18:36] <tantek> Zakim, ??P9 is tantek
- # [18:36] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
- # [18:36] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
- # [18:36] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
- # [18:36] <plinss> ack
- # [18:37] <dael> plinss: I also have a lot of concerns for similar reasons
- # [18:37] <dael> ...: It's the wrong place of optimization
- # [18:37] <dael> ...: What concerns me is adding the stacking. It may be useful because you don't want layering to change with animation, but I'm not seeing that happening
- # [18:38] <dael> dbaron: I thinkit's worth talking about why we want this
- # [18:38] <dael> ...: There are cases an author knows they want to animate
- # [18:38] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
- # [18:38] <dael> ...: ex touch interface
- # [18:38] <dael> ...: When the user touches they know it'll move
- # [18:38] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:38] <dael> ...: It's important responce is instant
- # [18:38] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
- # [18:38] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
- # [18:38] <dael> ...: when we're talking about trying to do touch UI on mobile hardware
- # [18:39] <dael> ...: The cost of painting into a layer when it wasn't before is expencive
- # [18:39] <dael> ...: ant the cost of optimistically using lots of layers is expencive
- # [18:39] <dael> ...: This is a hint
- # [18:39] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:39] <dael> ...: Other then change ins tacking, it doesn't have normative req.
- # [18:39] <dael> ...: WE haven't been able to get UI with touch to be resoncive without this.
- # [18:40] <dael> ...: We need some way to address it and this is the least-bad so far
- # [18:40] <dael> plinss: My concern is that this is changing behvaiour, even though you say it's a hint.
- # [18:40] <dael> dbaron: That's the problem we wanted a hint and this is what we had
- # [18:40] <dael> ...: Authors are doing worse things right now
- # [18:40] <dael> ...: They set translate in advance
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: I think having something more explicite is better thehn widespread use of hints
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: Such as things are faster in webkit if you stick translate Z
- # [18:41] <dael> ....: That's the world we're in
- # [18:41] <dael> ???: Should we create something meant to be a hint, or should we create a prop. that's also useful
- # [18:41] <dael> smfr: that seems better to me
- # [18:41] <plinss> s/???/florian/
- # [18:41] <glazou> s/???/ChrisL
- # [18:41] <glazou> er
- # [18:41] <sgalineau> lol
- # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: That does create a hint, but it creates seperate ways for spe. properties
- # [18:42] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:42] <glazou> s/???/florian
- # [18:42] <tantek> s/???/ChrisL
- # [18:42] <sgalineau> LOL
- # [18:42] <glazou> s/smfr/ChrisL
- # [18:42] <glazou> anyway :-)
- # [18:42] <dael> plinss: I do agree that is the desire is to create stacking context a prop is better
- # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: The desire isn't to create stacking context, the desire is anim. to pref better
- # [18:43] <dael> ChrisL: I'm agreeing with dbaron.
- # [18:43] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
- # [18:43] <dael> ChrisL: I also thinkt hat just creating stacking isn't enough for us to eff. run an animation without a hickup
- # [18:43] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:43] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
- # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: It's not enough, but it's a good side effect
- # [18:43] <dael> smfr: I think that's fine
- # [18:43] <dael> plinss: does it always create stacking, or only with some prop.
- # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: I don't know
- # [18:44] <dael> plinss: I'd like to see stacking be a mod of another prop and see if it needs to be explicit.
- # [18:44] <dael> ...: I'd liket og et rid of the hacks.
- # [18:44] * sgalineau well, one could argue CSS already has a will-create-stacking-context property, with initial value 'sometimes'
- # [18:44] <dael> dbaron: I think req. it's two prop makes people set two prop
- # [18:44] <dael> ???: on the other hand, with everything that's stacking today you'd be giving the illusion that you'll be able to put everything in context with a sep prop.
- # [18:45] <tantek> s/???/Rossen
- # [18:45] <dael> ??: So everything that creates a stacking context with auto meanst hat auto just is computed as force.
- # [18:45] <dael> ??: You could do that without an opportunity for turning it off.
- # [18:45] <glazou> s/??/florian
- # [18:45] <tantek> s/??/Florian
- # [18:45] <tantek> s/??/Florian
- # [18:46] <dael> ?: Like Simon pointed out, we're trying to find something animatable in it's proper context.
- # [18:46] <tantek> s/?/Rossen
- # [18:46] <dael> Rossen: I particularly favor a sep. property instead of stacking
- # [18:46] <dael> plinss: My otehr q is isn't there some way to look ahead through existing style and guess.
- # [18:46] <tantek> "you never know what someone is going to do in Javascript" [seriously]
- # [18:46] <tantek> (smfr)
- # [18:46] <dael> ...: If the issue is we're looking for something in JS it's an API not a property
- # [18:47] <dael> ???: The animation is run through CSS not API
- # [18:47] <tantek> s/???/Rossen
- # [18:47] <dael> ??: That's odd. it it's in CSS we should figure it out.
- # [18:47] <tantek> s/??/Florian
- # [18:47] <dael> ...: If it's b/c there's JS in the middle we should address that
- # [18:47] <dael> smfr: If you're using CSS we should fix it
- # [18:48] <dael> dbaron: the other prob is that if authors want to rely on this they want to know huristics
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: I think it's good to give authors reliablity in what perf. they can expect
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: and not say it's undefined
- # [18:48] <dael> florian: It still feels like this is close to a prop.
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: It says do what I say, but factor
- # [18:48] <tantek> s/factor/faster
- # [18:48] * sgalineau agrees that if the impact of this property is unclear or varies across browsers its usefulness is questionable
- # [18:49] <dael> ChrisL: It's saying prepare yourself for a future CSS prop change
- # [18:49] <tantek> s/ChrisL/smfr
- # [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: Does anyone know if animation spec is trying to address this?
- # [18:49] <dael> smfr: I don' think so
- # [18:49] <florian> s/it says do/that says do/
- # [18:50] <dael> smfr: I'm happy for this to conitue if someone on ML summerizes current proposal state
- # [18:50] <dbaron> s/animation spec/web animations spec/
- # [18:50] <dael> plinss: Can someone write up summary?
- # [18:50] <dael> ...: post it to ML?
- # [18:50] <dael> dbaron: I can poke someone and see if they can
- # [18:50] <dael> plinss: Then disc. will cont on ML
- # [18:50] <dael> Topic: interpolate() proposal
- # [18:50] <glazou> she is not here
- # [18:50] <dael> plinss: lea had a proposal.
- # [18:51] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
- # [18:51] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
- # [18:51] <dael> plinss: None of the part are here. Should we defer?
- # [18:51] <dael> Topic: :sorted pseudoclass
- # [18:51] <dael> plinss: This was from Tab and we can discuss here
- # [18:51] <dael> ...: add a psudeoclass adding HTML sorting model
- # [18:51] <dael> ...: Anyone have through?
- # [18:52] <dael> glazou: I made a comment on ML bc I think current prop. is not enough
- # [18:52] <tantek> would this also apply to <ol reversed> ?
- # [18:52] <dael> ...: It doesn't deal with columns that you don't sorty
- # [18:52] <dael> ...: If you haev a list of items with an index and you want index to remained ordered, it won't deal with that
- # [18:52] <dael> ...: I think it's a good start to match HTML5 and we need toe xtend to be complete
- # [18:53] <dael> ...: It's something web authors are doing more and more. We need a way to present to the viewer
- # [18:53] <tantek> q+ to ask about applying to <ol reversed> as well as tables
- # [18:53] * Zakim sees stacking, contexts, tantek on the speaker queue
- # [18:53] <sgalineau> doesn't understand; if you leave your table as-is then it can't be re-sorted, right?
- # [18:53] <dael> plinss: My q is that we need to extend sorting model of HTML, not CSS
- # [18:53] <dael> ...: Are you saying CSS should override the display of the table.
- # [18:53] <dael> glazou: The columns sorted with select a column if it's sorted in another place
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: We can't select if it's not sorted
- # [18:54] <dael> plinss: Wouldn't that be column-not sorted
- # [18:54] <tantek> :sorted does not alter the sorting of the table/column/list
- # [18:54] <dael> glazou: That's not possible
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: It's a bit verbose
- # [18:54] <dael> plinss: The proposal was just about if it's sorted or not
- # [18:54] <dael> glazou: I had anotehr comment about the arguement that is for determaning only in index
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: may way to extend to range
- # [18:55] <plinss> :not(:sorted)
- # [18:55] <dael> ...: If you sort on multiple columns you may want to sort all without selecting individual
- # [18:55] <dael> ...: Other then that I think we should cont. It's needed
- # [18:55] <dael> plinss: Any obj to adding this to selectors 4?
- # [18:55] <dael> bert: You would want to know if table is sorted
- # [18:55] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
- # [18:55] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
- # [18:56] <dael> ...: You can do that with subject slector, but may be easier to have psudo on the who table
- # [18:56] <dael> s/who.whole
- # [18:56] <dael> s/who/whole
- # [18:56] <dael> glenn: the only comment is I had was should that aplly to tables too, other then normally ordered?
- # [18:56] <tantek> s/glenn/tantek
- # [18:56] <dael> plinss: That's an interesting point. I don't see why not
- # [18:57] <tantek> s/apply to tables too/apply to ordered lists too
- # [18:57] <dael> RESOLVED: Add :sorted to selectors 4
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -Glenn
- # [18:57] <glazou> dael, action on me
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -Plh
- # [18:57] <dael> plinss: Thank you everyone
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -cabanier
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -dauwhe
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -ChrisL
- # [18:57] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -Stearns
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -tantek
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -antonp
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [18:57] <dael> Action: glazou add :sorted to selectors 4
- # [18:57] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:57] * RRSAgent records action 4
- # [18:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-602 - Add :sorted to selectors 4 [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-12-18].
- # [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
- # [18:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [18:57] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, Stearns, dauwhe, krit, SylvaIng, plinss, Plh, SimonSapin, antonp, smfr, SteveZ, florian, cabanier, Bert, Glenn, ChrisL, dbaron, fantasai, [Bloomberg],
- # [18:57] <Zakim> ... tantek, Rossen_
- # [18:57] <glazou> thanks dael
- # [18:57] * Parts: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) (florian)
- # [18:57] <tantek> thanks dael!
- # [18:58] <dael> thanks everyone!
- # [18:58] <dael> I'll learn everyone's voice one day ^-^
- # [18:58] <tantek> q-
- # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [18:58] <Rossen_> Thank you Dael!
- # [18:58] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) ("Client combusted")
- # [18:58] <glazou> dael, where are you based ?
- # [18:58] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
- # [18:58] <glazou> d'oh
- # [18:58] <tantek> apparently not in irc ;)
- # [18:58] <glazou> eheh
- # [18:59] <tantek> hey whatever happened to ::selection?
- # [19:01] <Bert> ::selection proved difficult to define. But now that we are working on generic region styling, it should probably be added there, i.e., in the Regions spec.
- # [19:01] <tantek> ugh that sounds a bit awkward
- # [19:02] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
- # [19:02] <tantek> it involves a lot of user interaction more than layout
- # [19:02] <sgalineau> yes, not sure what it has to do with Regions.
- # [19:02] <Bert> Yes, but the difficult part was defining the inheritance of style, and that is what Regions is about.
- # [19:04] <astearns> Bert: are you talking about adding a selector after ::selection, the way it's done with ::region and ::content?
- # [19:05] <tantek> I'm not sure I want to conflate ::selection inheritance and ::region inheritance
- # [19:05] <glazou> I don't think ::selection belongs to Regions
- # [19:05] <tantek> we already have multiple unprefixed implementations of ::selection which to me means we need to test/document existing interop behavior of *that*, rather than try to combine it with Regions
- # [19:05] <glazou> it's independent
- # [19:05] <tantek> glazou - we are agreed.
- # [19:05] * glazou is with tantek
- # [19:06] <astearns> I am too, but I'd like to understand the point Bert was trying to make
- # [19:06] <glazou> sure
- # [19:08] <Bert> We also discussed restricting the properties that apply to ::selection to just the easy ones. But otherwise styling a P that is partly in region a and partly in region b is the same problem as styling a P that is partly in ::selection and partly not.
- # [19:09] <glazou> ok that argument is that ::selection has relationship with fragmentation ; I agree with that
- # [19:10] <Bert> Which is probably the same problem as styling a P that is both in the body and in a running header (if we decide we need to duplicate elements for running headers).
- # [19:10] <tantek> re: restricting properties that apply to ::selection - I propose we choose the set of properties that have been interop implemented for ::selection across existing implementations.
- # [19:10] <glazou> well
- # [19:10] <tantek> at least to get *something* spec'd that authors can depend on.
- # [19:10] <glazou> we chose originally to restrict to properties triggering a repaing and not a reflow
- # [19:10] <glazou> repaint
- # [19:11] <tantek> glazou - agreed, and I want to subset that according to actual implementation today.
- # [19:11] <glazou> agreed
- # [19:11] <tantek> we can always expand it in an iteration later.
- # [19:11] <glazou> absolutely
- # [19:13] * tantek is having a temporary lapse of judgment and is tempted to add ::selection back to CSS3-UI based on the above criteria.
- # [19:13] <glazou> LOL
- # [19:14] <tantek> since it was here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511/#pseudo-elements
- # [19:14] <tantek> and we now have a much better understanding of its limitations.
- # [19:14] * tantek will capture it in an issue :/
- # [19:15] <glazou> ::selection was in my first Selectors 3 draft I think, eons ago
- # [19:15] <glazou> probably back in 1999
- # [19:16] * tantek does some digging
- # [19:16] <glazou> spec archeology is always fun :-d
- # [19:16] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
- # [19:17] <tantek> glazou - not quite 1999. made it into 2000-04-10 draft which I co-edited so I don't know which of us added it. http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-css3-selectors-20000410#UIfragments
- # [19:18] <tantek> glazou - I think it was me - first reference found here: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-css3-userint-19990916#pseudo-selection
- # [19:19] <tantek> so yes, 1999 introduced. 2000 incorporated into Selectors.
- # [19:19] * tantek is feeling the weight of specification debt.
- # [19:20] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
- # [19:21] * tantek will avoid the temptation to include IE5.1/Mac in the set of browsers to test :selection, ::selection interop for specification purposes.
- # [19:23] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
- # [19:25] <glazou> tantek, and I did an implem in Gecko too, because of yours, after *that* crepes dinner
- # [19:25] <tantek> *which* crepes dinner - so many I forget
- # [19:26] <tantek> was it a Ti Couz?
- # [19:26] <glazou> exactly
- # [19:26] <tantek> (which is sadly now closed :( )
- # [19:26] <tantek> glazou I feel old :(
- # [19:26] <glazou> the one when you challenged me to implement :not() overnight
- # [19:26] <glazou> :)
- # [19:27] <glazou> if you feel old, what should I say eh
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- # [19:48] <tantek> Bert, sgalineau, astearns - re-adding ::selection captured as CSS3-UI issue 30 per above discussion: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-30
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- # [20:11] <tantek> email to list sent
- # [20:15] <krit> fantasai: I think I covered all your comments on http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/issues-lc-2013.html
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- # [22:15] <krit> fantasai: Hi, I incorporated some of your feedback and would like to ask you if I can close issues 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20, 21 (removed the note from the spec) and 22. I can also ask on the mailing list if you prefer that.
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- # [23:51] <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, do you know if Dael will be sponsored to attend the Seattle meeting?
- # [23:57] <SimonSapin> oh, great. "*Non-US state/province (limit 4 characters)"
- # Session Close: Thu Dec 12 00:00:00 2013
The end :)