/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-01-22 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 22 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [08:14] * Topic is '15-jan-2014 Telcon Canceled'
# [08:14] * Set by plinss on Wed Jan 15 08:57:50
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# [17:09] <dauwhe__> The sun never sets on the CSSWG.
# [17:09] <Ms2ger> On its vast empire of never-finished specs?
# [17:11] <dauwhe__> :)
# [17:19] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
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# [17:39] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jan/0294.html'
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# [17:40] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:40] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
# [17:40] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:40] * Ms2ger waves at glazou
# [17:41] <glazou> hi Ms2ger !
# [17:41] <Ms2ger> Haven't had time for Servo yet? :)
# [17:43] <glazou> too little :(
# [17:43] <glazou> but that will change right after my trip to US
# [17:44] <Ms2ger> Good to know :)
# [17:44] <glazou> yeah
# [17:44] <glazou> same feeling here
# [17:44] <glazou> mastering powerpoint has never been one of my goals in life :-/
# [17:45] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [17:45] <Ms2ger> HTML slide decks?
# [17:45] <krit> Didn't we say we don't have meeting around a F2F or was it just after a F2F?
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# [17:45] <glazou> after
# [17:45] <glazou> the week after
# [17:45] <krit> k
# [17:46] * Ms2ger will not attend this f2f :)
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# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:53] <Zakim> +glenn
# [17:53] <Zakim> +dael
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# [17:54] <dael> ScribeNick: Dael
# [17:54] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaaa
# [17:55] <dauwhe> Zakim, aaaa is dauwhe
# [17:55] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P24
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P26
# [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P26 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:55] <abinader> Zakim, ??P24 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [17:55] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:56] <Zakim> +SGalineau
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# [17:57] <Zakim> +krit
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P21
# [17:57] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +Stearns
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +rhauck
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P37
# [17:58] <Zakim> +antonp
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Bert
# [17:59] <Zakim> +smfr
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# [18:00] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:00] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P52
# [18:00] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [18:00] * Zakim hears ??P37's hand up
# [18:00] * Zakim sees ??P37 on the speaker queue
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# [18:00] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P37
# [18:00] <Zakim> +leif; got it
# [18:00] <leif> q-
# [18:00] * Zakim sees ??P37 on the speaker queue
# [18:01] <leif> hm
# [18:01] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:01] <dael> ...: Anything to add to the agenda?
# [18:01] <leif> q- ??P37
# [18:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [18:02] <dael> plinss: F2F is coming quickly, please add topics to the wiki
# [18:02] <dael> ...: I'd like to make progress on tranforms, transitions and animations
# [18:02] <dael> Topic: May F2F
# [18:02] <dael> glazou: As I said, I pinged Samsung in Korea
# [18:02] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:02] <dael> ...: I have confirmation that we can host in Seoul with help of W3C office
# [18:03] <dael> ...: I posted a doodle for dates to the private mailing list and not everyone has answered.
# [18:03] <dael> ...: I'd like avail. from everyone so we can pick dates.
# [18:03] <dael> ...: Right now 19-21 May is the most available
# [18:03] <dael> ...: That's a Monday-Wedensday
# [18:03] <dael> plinss: Do we want to give time for people to doodle, or should we do dates now?
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# [18:04] <dael> glazou: We can do more. Korean new year is soon, so it's not a problem if we give them a few days to decide.
# [18:04] <dael> ...: If that's okay by everyone unless someone needs a choice now.
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# [18:04] <dael> SteveZ: I'd prefer we don't overlap, so a different week would be good
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:04] <glazou> s/SteveZ/glenn
# [18:04] <dael> Topic: Selectors 4 :has()
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I forgot to mention that immegration requires passports be valid for, I think, 6 months after.
# [18:05] * sgalineau air traffic control is on the line, trying to land selectors
# [18:05] <dael> ...: You'll want to check that soon.
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# [18:05] * glazou will find the exact info about that
# [18:06] <dael> SimonSapin: So explained on the ML I'd like to propose adding has() pseudoclass
# [18:06] <dael> ...: I think there are equivalents where if you express with one you can use the other one
# [18:06] <dael> ...: I think this is faster and is the same for ??? and this
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:06] <dael> ...: The pseudoclass has utility where we can fix issues with indicators
# [18:06] <Koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Koji; got it
# [18:06] <dael> ...: The ! has more issues then it has
# [18:07] * glazou CONFIRMED : korean immigration requires passports to be valid 6 months after RETURN DATE
# [18:07] <dael> ...: Any comments or options?
# [18:07] <dael> briankardell: I believe it was originally has() and then morphed.
# [18:07] <dael> ...: I htink that was lack of an ability to agree on a child for has()
# [18:07] <astearns> +1 to :has over overloading !
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# [18:07] <Bert> q+ to say I don't particularly like the need for parentheses. And "!" is actually very good as an emphasis mark.
# [18:07] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:07] <Zakim> -??P52
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:08] <dael> bert: I don't think the () are good, you'd have nester [] in ()
# [18:08] <dael> ...: It makes it unreadable.
# [18:08] * glazou and Bert agree AT LAST :-)
# [18:08] <dael> ...: I like the use of the single ! since it means emphasis.
# [18:08] <dael> ...: I'd better like it if you could underline the subject selector
# [18:08] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:08] * smfr_ is now known as smfr
# [18:09] <dael> SimonSapin: I agree ! means emphasis, but in a boolan conxtex it doesn't work
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: I don't think it's a problem.
# [18:09] * BradK is not a big fan of the functional notation inside selectors
# [18:09] <dael> ...: I disccused with web authors a while ago and they don't deal with boolean
# [18:09] <dael> ...: They liked the ! as a selector.
# [18:09] <sgalineau> I have the completely opposite experience
# [18:09] <dael> BradK: I had the opposite experience. I don't know if there's a way to collect information, but I wish we could
# [18:09] <sgalineau> +1 to BradK
# [18:10] <dael> ...: I've run it past 50-75 people and they all think it means not
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> Speaking from a lot of jQ experience, :has() is *very* easy to use and really easy to read.
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: I agree with Bert's comment about ()
# [18:10] <BradK> It wasn't me speaking
# [18:10] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: It excludes the part, it is the subject at the end of the chain instead of the beginging
# [18:10] <dael> SimonSapin: () is inside nesting, but we've had that.
# [18:10] <dael> ...: about being at the end, it's what we've always had so far
# [18:10] <Zakim> +??P12
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: You ddin't understand.
# [18:11] <abinader> Zakim, ??P12 is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [18:11] <dael> ...: If you had a chain of selectors inside a big selector, !<p>
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# [18:11] <bkardell> +TabAtkins comment re: it exists in the most popular library and is widely used for a long time now
# [18:11] <glazou> !p.class:hover vs. p.class:hovr:has(..)
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> ! also has some funky issues with regards to exactly what selector *arguments* it's allowed in.
# [18:11] <dael> s/bradk/bkardell (i think
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: I prefer the first one
# [18:12] <dael> SimonSapin: I don't see a difference
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> We need to allow it in :matches(), but shadow DOM's :host() selector doesn't make any sense.
# [18:12] * sgalineau finds the latter easier to read
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: When you read it it works.
# [18:12] * sgalineau no controversy here
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: I'm only giving my opinion here
# [18:12] <smfr> ! looks like "not" to me
# [18:12] <dael> bkardell: I see people find the latter on easier, that's the has() one, correct?
# [18:13] * antonp reads ! as "not" too
# [18:13] <bkardell> my question was which sgalineau was indicating
# [18:13] <glazou> I think we already had that exact discussion about ! long ago and made a decision
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: I'm hearing people on both sides, no clear concencious
# [18:13] <sgalineau> bkardell, I prefer :has()
# [18:13] <dael> ...: How do we move forward?
# [18:13] <glazou> s/concencious/consensus
# [18:13] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:13] * Bert has a hard time believing that a significant number of users of CSS associates ! with not. You must be a programmer to be able have that funny association.
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: Drop poll, public poll?
# [18:13] <glazou> Bert +1
# [18:13] <sgalineau> the ! is too ambiguous for too many people
# [18:13] <dael> bkardell: I think public is more useful
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> Bert: A lot of CSS users are at least light programmers.
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> But I can def set up a poll.
# [18:14] <dael> ...: The consistuancy needs to know who says what
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: Saying ! is a subject selector denotes a negation, we've never had the problem with !important
# [18:14] <sgalineau> Bert, I don't know a single web professional who only writes CSS and does zero programming in some scripting language
# [18:14] <BradK> s/drop/straw
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: We have that problem with !important all the time
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I've never heard that
# [18:14] <dael> ???: It does happen allt he time
# [18:15] <glazou> s/???+smfr
# [18:15] <dael> bkardell: I've had that experience as well
# [18:15] <astearns> s/everyone/the people I talk to/
# [18:15] <glazou> s/???/smfr
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Looks liek Tab was offering to set up a poll.
# [18:15] <smfr> wat
# [18:15] * krit maybe use !!important then
# [18:15] * Bert ???
# [18:15] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:15] <sgalineau> lol
# [18:15] * smfr settles back with popcorn
# [18:15] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: BradK (7%), SimonSapin (15%), glazou (8%), Bert (7%)
# [18:15] * plh spam on the css wg call :)
# [18:15] * TabAtkins Zakim, those percentages don't add up to 100%.
# [18:15] * Zakim I don't understand 'those percentages don't add up to 100%', TabAtkins
# [18:15] <BradK> I didn't know we had commercials here
# [18:15] <astearns> wow
# [18:15] * sgalineau must be the ad inserts to pay for our minute taker
# [18:15] * dbaron Zakim, mute BradK
# [18:15] * Zakim BradK should now be muted
# [18:15] * smfr CSS WG, now ad-sponsored
# [18:15] <glenn> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:15] * dbaron Zakim, mute SimonSapin
# [18:15] * Zakim SimonSapin should now be muted
# [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aabb
# [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, unmute SimonSapin
# [18:16] * Zakim SimonSapin should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:16] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:16] * Bert wonders if somebody is using "free" phone service
# [18:16] * TabAtkins Zakim, anything about statistics.
# [18:16] * Zakim I don't understand 'anything about statistics', TabAtkins
# [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, unmute BradK
# [18:16] * Zakim BradK should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <BradK> Not me, I'm muted
# [18:16] <Zakim> glenn, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [18:16] * krit ok, W3C sponsered by ..
# [18:16] * TabAtkins I know, Zakim. I know.
# [18:16] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:16] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: BradK (57%), SimonSapin (4%)
# [18:16] * dbaron zakim, unmute glazou
# [18:16] * Zakim glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <plh> zakim, mute bradK
# [18:16] <Zakim> BradK should now be muted
# [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, mute Bert
# [18:16] * Zakim Bert should now be muted
# [18:16] * plh arghh
# [18:16] * sgalineau in fairness, 'talk to your doctor' is an appropriate message for CSS discussions
# [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, unmute Bert
# [18:16] * Zakim Bert should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <astearns> talk to your doctor about your interpretation of !
# [18:16] <Zakim> -??P4
# [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:16] * Zakim sees on the phone: glenn, dael, dauwhe, glazou, plinss, SGalineau, krit, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, [Bloomberg], leif, antonp, Bert, smfr, Plh, SteveZ, BrianKardell, BradK
# [18:16] <antonp> ! is bad for yoiur health
# [18:16] * Zakim ... (muted), Koji, dbaron, abinader, +1.206.992.aabb
# [18:17] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:17] * sgalineau SNORING STOPS HERE
# [18:17] * TabAtkins "If your image continues floating for more than four hours..."
# [18:17] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:17] <SteveZ> I am muted
# [18:17] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:17] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:17] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:17] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [18:17] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:17] * krit was it baron making ad for banks?
# [18:17] <bkardell> best.css.teleconf.ever. :)
# [18:17] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, mute abinader
# [18:17] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:17] * Zakim abinader should now be muted
# [18:17] <glazou> I guess someone opened a web page in the bg with an ad
# [18:17] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:17] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, mute aabb
# [18:17] * Zakim +1.206.992.aabb should now be muted
# [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, unmute aabb
# [18:17] * Zakim +1.206.992.aabb should no longer be muted
# [18:17] <BradK> It's not me. If i am noisy it must be from static or something, since I am using my phone's mute already.
# [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, unmute abinader
# [18:17] * Zakim abinader should no longer be muted
# [18:17] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [18:17] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:17] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:18] <glazou> OMG
# [18:18] <leif> I think the telconf software bugged out
# [18:18] * plh a crossed line maybe?
# [18:18] <dbaron> BradK, do you not hear a television?
# [18:18] <Zakim> -??P19
# [18:18] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [18:18] <BradK> Yes, I do
# [18:18] * Bert redialing...
# [18:18] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: dael, plinss, SGalineau, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, [Bloomberg], leif, antonp, Bert, Plh, BrianKardell, BradK (muted), Koji, dbaron, abinader, +1.206.992.aabb,
# [18:18] * Rossen_ is anyone scribing this?
# [18:18] * Zakim ... ??P4, smfr, ??P17, dauwhe
# [18:18] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:18] <antonp> lol
# [18:18] <plh> zakim, mute dael
# [18:18] <Zakim> dael should now be muted
# [18:18] <glazou> Rossen_, LOL
# [18:18] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:18] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:18] <plh> zakim, mute plinss
# [18:18] <Zakim> plinss should now be muted
# [18:18] <smfr> whoo
# [18:18] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [18:18] <BradK> Don't know why I am being shown as noisy, I meant
# [18:18] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: dael (muted), plinss (muted), SGalineau, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, leif, antonp, Plh, BrianKardell, BradK (muted), Koji, abinader, +1.206.992.aabb, ??P4,
# [18:18] * Zakim ... smfr, ??P17, dauwhe, SteveZ
# [18:18] <Zakim> +krit
# [18:18] <plh> zakim, unmute plinss
# [18:18] <Zakim> plinss should no longer be muted
# [18:18] <Zakim> +??P24
# [18:18] <antonp> that was awesome
# [18:18] <plh> zakim, unmute dael
# [18:18] <Zakim> dael should no longer be muted
# [18:18] <glazou> Zakim, ??P17 is me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:18] <plh> zakim, unmute BradK
# [18:18] <Zakim> BradK should no longer be muted
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:19] <glenn> is it fixed yet?
# [18:19] <glazou> yes
# [18:19] <dael> yes, fixed now
# [18:19] <smfr> was it -[Bloomberg] ?
# [18:19] <plh> yep, it's fixed
# [18:19] <plh> probably
# [18:19] <sgalineau> far too many of these messages were relevant...
# [18:19] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:19] <Zakim> +glenn
# [18:19] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:19] <sgalineau> 'talk to your doctor' is totally acceptable when we argue syntax
# [18:19] * dauwhe the MPAA influence is starting sooner than I thought...
# [18:20] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:20] <MaRakow> Zakim, +1.206.992.aabb is me
# [18:20] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:20] <dael> plinss: Where were we?
# [18:20] <dael> plinss: I think Tab was offering to set up a poll on the selector bit.
# [18:20] <SteveZ> someone wanted to filabuster the "has()" discussion
# [18:20] <dael> ...: Let's do that, get more data, and come back
# [18:20] * plh guesses it's not the right time to bring up z-index values for marketing purposes
# [18:20] <dael> Topic: Page Transitions
# [18:20] <Zakim> -??P4
# [18:20] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:20] <dauwhe> s/filabuster/filibuster/
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: I posted a question on www-style and some of you have contibuted to that thread.
# [18:21] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:21] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:21] <dael> ...: I think it's time to consider these transitions.
# [18:21] <dael> ...: A few reasons this is need. Mostly because some industries want to move to web based apps and want to do somethings
# [18:21] <dael> ...: One thing users require is nice transitions
# [18:22] <dael> ...: industry said they can't move to web based apps without page transtions.
# [18:22] <dael> ...: Users will react negatively without it
# [18:22] <dael> ...: I'm not saying we have to do this now or that it's CSS, but the discussion should be in our next charter
# [18:22] <dael> ...: I'd like the WG to agree on the fact that this conversation is in scope for next charter
# [18:22] <dael> tantek: I agree this is in scope and I think I can dig up a 1999 proposal.
# [18:22] * smfr notes http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532847(v=vs.85).aspx#Interpage_Transition
# [18:23] <dael> ...: I may be numbers based, but I'm happy to publish publically
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: We have things from you, Miscrosoft, animations, SVG, photo effects...I'm sure we can aggrigate in a secure manner
# [18:23] <dael> ...: I think now is the right time to discuss it
# [18:23] * sgalineau wonders if there is anything that wasn't proposed in the 90s or done in DXImageTransform
# [18:23] <dael> ...: WE have user requests, basically
# [18:23] <dael> tantek: seconded
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: Any other opinions?
# [18:24] <dael> bert: Just a question, is thie related to Opera proposal of directional nav
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: No. I suggested this independantly and don't know what you're talking about
# [18:24] <dael> bert: It's a simple transation, next page can be left, right etc.
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: It's not that. It's fading between source and desitional.
# [18:24] <bkardell> seems logical that it be in the charter esp. if that doesn't commit that a CSS solution *must* come about
# [18:24] <dael> ...: It's a visual fade from one page to the next.
# [18:25] <dael> ...: How do you do it. I fyou buid a GPA app for auto, you want things to be really cool.
# [18:25] <dael> ...: And the industry won't use web-based if they're not cool.
# [18:25] <plinss> s/GPA/GPS/
# [18:25] <dael> SimonSapin: That's interesting, but I'd liket os ee proposals on what a page is
# [18:25] <dael> ...: Is it new URL, or after page break
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: That's what we need to discuss, but we can't do that officially without charter
# [18:26] * leif I'm not aware of any Opera proposal, and ftr directional navigation is about navigating within a page, not positioning pages visually in relation to eachother
# [18:26] <SimonSapin> s/after page break/page generated by the page-break-after property/
# [18:26] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:26] * sgalineau almost time for another commercial break
# [18:26] <BradK> html:next { transition: flip-left; }
# [18:26] <dael> ???: There's things we can reference like card, there's transitions between card like swipe left, right, etc.
# [18:26] <dbaron> s/???/tantek/
# [18:26] <dbaron> s/card/hypercard/
# [18:26] <dael> tantek: This is more than 20 years olf
# [18:26] <plinss> s/like card/like hypercard/
# [18:26] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:26] * dauwhe ebook readers often use transition effects between "pages" (used in the "paginated" sense).
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: Any objections, or can we add that to charter?
# [18:26] <abinader> Zakim, ??P4 is me
# [18:26] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: I hear no obj.
# [18:27] <BradK> +1 to page transitions
# [18:27] <bkardell> +1
# [18:27] <dael> ba\ert: I can see lots of problems, but not obj to talking
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: I'd like to be able to just talk
# [18:27] <dael> RESOLVED: Add page transitions to the charter
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: Can we go another step, does anyone want to work on this
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: I do
# [18:28] <dael> tantek: I can at least dig up my old draft, I think it was in member space
# [18:28] <dael> ...: But I can dig it up and I can just publish it to the public lists.
# [18:28] <dael> ...: It's not going to be modern, but it will help with historical context
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: I'm sure it'll be a useful reference
# [18:28] <dael> ...: Whatever we do should tie into shader
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: Since this is a charter edit, as soon as we start discussing it we should study the security aspects
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: Security will be fun
# [18:29] <dael> Topic: CSS 2.2
# [18:29] <glazou> Security IG will help
# [18:29] <dael> bert: Some time ago we discuss pub an update for CSS 2.2 and we discovered we need new tests due to erratta
# [18:30] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:30] <dael> ...: People asked me to make a wiki and people signed up to make tests, but some of the errata don't have signups
# [18:30] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.2
# [18:30] <dael> ...: This is a request for people to again look at the wiki page
# [18:30] * Ms2ger would help out if tests were in web-platform-tests
# [18:30] <dael> ...: If there's any topic you can write a test about, please do.
# [18:30] <dael> ....: We wanted to pub an update months ago, but we're still waiting on tests.
# [18:30] <dael> ...: I have some people signed up, arron, Chris, Simon.
# [18:30] <tantek> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, plinss, SGalineau, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, leif, antonp, Plh, BrianKardell, BradK, Koji, MaRakow, smfr, glazou, dauwhe, SteveZ, krit, ??P24, Bert,
# [18:30] <dael> ...: If any of those people are here, do you have tests?
# [18:30] <Zakim> ... dbaron, glenn, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], abinader
# [18:30] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
# [18:31] <tantek> Zakim, ??P24 is tantek
# [18:31] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:31] <dael> SimonSapin: I don't have tests yet, but I'm going to work on them
# [18:31] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:31] <dael> bert: Another idea I had was some tests would be written at TTWF
# [18:31] <dael> ...: If people going would keep that it mind, it's a good oppotunity to write the tests of CSS 2.2
# [18:31] <dael> ...: Any ideas how to get more tests?
# [18:31] * Ms2ger doubts anybody at testtwf has the expertise to write those tests
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: Typically at TTWF there's an oppotunity for people to solicit tests
# [18:32] <dael> ...: I won't be there, but will someone be there to make this pitch?
# [18:32] <dael> ...: Anyone going to TTWF?
# [18:32] <dael> bert: I'm going
# [18:32] <dael> ???: I'm going to be there
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: Can either of you help
# [18:32] <dael> ???: I'm new and the plan was for GCPM tests, but I'll do what I can
# [18:33] <dauwhe> s/???/dauwhe/
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: My other q is there a list of tests that were invalidated?
# [18:33] <dael> bert: not that I know of.
# [18:33] <rhauck_> This will be the first one I'm missing, sorry :(
# [18:33] <dael> ...: I don't think anyone has done that analysis
# [18:33] <dael> ...: There was expectation that tests have changed, but no one found out which.
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: Can someone do that analysis?
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [18:34] <dael> bert: Maybe those that said they'd write tests can looka t existing tests in same area?
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: That's prop. resonable
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: Anything else on CSS 2.2?
# [18:34] <dael> bert: I don't think so, we need those tests and I think we're ready.
# [18:35] <dael> plh: I think the errata for charter is incomlete, so I'll try and submit those tests
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: OKay.
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> s/plh/SimonSapin
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> s/charter/character encodings/
# [18:35] <dael> Topic: Filedset Rendering
# [18:35] <dauwhe> s/Filedset/Fieldset/
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: It looks like this is underspeced and there's lots of varrience between browsers.
# [18:35] <glazou> s/Filedset/Fieldset
# [18:35] <dael> ...: So we want to spec it, are we okay with it as is, if we do spec where would it go?
# [18:36] <dael> dbaron: Seems like this is bigger than fieldsets, though it may m ake sense to start there.
# [18:36] <dael> ...: We may be the right people to work on it, for all that it's between HTML and CSS. I don't know.
# [18:36] <tantek> is this just for legacy? I mean, do any real world web pages actually depend on fieldset rendering?
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Anyone else?
# [18:37] <dael> SimonSapin: I think part of the point as far as it comes to styling it goes it.
# [18:37] <tantek> my understanding is that the rendering is unpredictable enough that any actually "designed" web page doesn't bother with fieldset rendering because it is so ugly/unstylable.
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/rossen/
# [18:37] <dael> ...: Overflow, border styling should certainly come to us
# [18:37] * Quits: rhauck_ (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:37] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure if the rest should be CSS or HTML
# [18:37] <dael> plinss: I think there's overall coordination, but there are def. styling issues.
# [18:38] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:38] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:38] <dael> Rossen_: I was playing with different impl and I can see the frustration of some impl not honoring overflow: auto
# [18:38] <dael> ...: How is the legend positioned, it is to box or to content.
# [18:38] <dael> ...: All these style issues we can spec.
# [18:39] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:39] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:39] <dael> ...: I can see how we can do extensions to overflow, but my opinion is CSS should be like the rest and if it supports scrolling, it should always do it.
# [18:39] <BradK> Is there a shadow DOM for fieldset and label?
# [18:39] <dael> ...: But these are things we should discuss.
# [18:39] <dael> Rossen_: Are we prep to discuss now, or does it need more ML time?
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: Is this legacy, or is this actually used?
# [18:39] <dael> Rossen_: My assuption is this is refering to ...you said legacy control?
# [18:40] <dael> ...: The reference in the e-mail is to the siting for the WG, so I'm assuming this is current
# [18:40] <bkardell> Seems like this could use more info/discussion on the list if folks are unclear about legacy/unused etc
# [18:40] <dael> plinss: It's part of HTML5 so people are still using it
# [18:40] <dael> tantek: What I'm asking about is fieldset rendering and my understanding is people turn of the rendering b/c it's ugly.
# [18:40] <dael> ...: Is this to fix that or for an actual feature?
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: My understanding is frustration over a lack of interop
# [18:41] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure we can spec legacy and I'm not sure we need new features, but we need to spec how it behavies.
# [18:41] <dael> plinss: Other q is who wants to work on it, where should it live?
# [18:41] <dael> tantek: My q is what is "this"?
# [18:41] <SimonSapin> s/tantek/Rossen_
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: I guess there's 2 approaches. Look at all bit of fieldset and make sure they're addressed or start a new spec
# [18:42] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:42] <dael> ...: I'm not sure, but there's def. an issue here.
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: Thoughts?
# [18:42] <dael> dbaron: I think there will need to be a new spec unless it all goes on HTML5
# [18:42] * krit so much complexity in CSS :)
# [18:42] <dael> ...: I don't know.
# [18:42] * Joins: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: This is why I was curious if it was planning or comonent since component shouldn't be us.
# [18:43] <dael> ...: As far as style Rob was frustrated at i can see border having spec for fieldset handling and also handling for overflow
# [18:43] * Joins: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak)
# [18:43] <dael> ...: We can put that in CSS. The rest, I don't see how we can do it.
# [18:44] <BradK> Define its structure internally as shadow DOM, then define a default style sheet for it once 'appearance' is turned off.
# [18:44] <dael> ...: WHat is the component unless we go into what HTML is trying to do with position and size.
# [18:44] <dael> ...: We'll either define comonent model or won't. If we're doing component model, let's do it more holestically then fieldset
# [18:44] <dael> tantek: That would spec fieldset??
# [18:44] <tantek> (that's not me talking)
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: Part of the goal would be answering it more broadly? Fieldset would be one use case of the component?
# [18:45] <tantek> s/tantek/???
# [18:45] <dael> Rossen_: Right. If you go after the component and this would be a part of it, this would be easy. I'm not sure we're the rigth WG
# [18:45] <bkardell> dael: that was me
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: I'm not sure this is component model stuff?
# [18:45] <dael> Rossen_: What would it be?
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: Fieldset is a thing that exists and you spec what is there and how style effect it. If people want to impl as a component model that's fine
# [18:46] <dael> ...: But they don't have to
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen_: For one this the legend is always in a fieldset. That's already semi-componet.
# [18:46] <dael> dbaron: You just said it in prose
# [18:46] <dael> Rossen_: What do you mean?
# [18:46] <dael> dbaron: What I'm talking about is spec like wha tyou jsut said.
# [18:46] <tantek> aside: regarding page transitions, I think this is the prior art I was thinking of: https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2003/progrend.html
# [18:46] <dael> s/wha tyou/what you
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: So dbaron made a proposal for a spec of form rendering. My concern is if we do piecemeal we'll still have interop issues.
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: I'd be happy with that as a spec.
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Other opinions?
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: Is this something you want to work on dbaron?
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: Not espeically
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: If we're going to create a new spec, who will edit?
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen_: I can volunteer to work on it
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Anyone else?
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Any objections to the new spec?
# [18:48] <dael> RESOLVED: Create a new spec for form control rendering with Rossen_ with an editor
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: I imaging Rossen_ wouldn't mind other people stepping up to help
# [18:49] <dael> Topic: <ol reversed>
# [18:49] <tantek> aside: regarding page transitions prior art in HyperCard, the "visual effect" command, documented with various options (e.g. dissolve, iris open, scroll left, wipe left, etc.) http://www.jaedworks.com/hypercard/HT-Masters/visual-effects.html
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: Tab made some edits, but I was concerned this had behaviour that couldn't be addressed in counters or are people ok with that
# [18:49] <tantek> aside: and that should complete my actions for page transitions from this telcon. :)
# [18:49] <dael> SimonSapin: There's on part that can't be address, but I think it's okay because it's only a problem inside the UN Countries
# [18:50] <dael> dbaron: I think we'll want lists to function within counters.
# [18:50] <dael> SimonSapin: I think CSS defines that
# [18:50] <dael> SimonSapin: That's why I wanted the edit.
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: IF we can't do a revese list we're not complete. We need to expland the model to address that
# [18:50] <dael> dbaron: Prob. WE should also consider being able to set a counter without creating a new scope.
# [18:51] <dael> ...: I think we had an agreement about making some new additions a few years ago
# [18:51] <dael> plinss: TabAtkins isn't here today
# [18:51] <dael> ???: I think we have counter-sets
# [18:51] <dbaron> s/???/SimonSapin/
# [18:51] <dael> dbaron: We do have them? Okay.
# [18:51] <dbaron> s/counter-sets/counter-set
# [18:51] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes.
# [18:51] <dael> plinss: I guess q is do we want to work on reverse-lists? Do we want to be able to do that?
# [18:51] <dael> ...: Any obj?
# [18:52] <dael> SimonSapin: I think what we have is fine unless we want to expose the selection behaviour without using HTML
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: That's what I'm leaning toward. I'd like to be able to explain everything in the model we have.
# [18:52] <glazou> not me
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: We don't have the people we need on the call to move forward, but anyone obj. to that?
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: I'll take that as no obj. Maybe we'll discuss at the F2F when people are together.
# [18:53] <dael> ...: That's the end of the agenda and the top of the hour.
# [18:53] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:53] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:53] <Zakim> -SGalineau
# [18:53] * SteveZ Bye
# [18:53] <dael> ...: Thanks everyone and safe travels. We'll see you Monday 9am.
# [18:53] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [18:53] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:53] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:53] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:53] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [18:53] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: Bye.
# [18:53] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:53] <Zakim> -leif
# [18:53] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:53] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:53] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:53] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:53] <sgalineau> actually, breakfast arrives at 8:30am
# [18:53] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:53] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:53] <Zakim> -Koji
# [18:53] <Zakim> -Plh
# [18:53] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:53] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:53] <sgalineau> delicious bagels, to be exact
# [18:53] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:53] <SimonSapin> sgalineau, good to know :)
# [18:54] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:54] * sgalineau is game for eating 40 bagels with SimonSapin
# [18:54] * Quits: Koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [18:54] <sgalineau> seriously: scheduled breakfast things everyday at 8:30. will email about that very important fact...
# [18:55] <glazou> sgalineau, true yiddish bagels ?-)
# [18:55] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:56] <dauwhe> sgalineau: boiled in lye?
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# [18:56] <glazou> :)
# [18:57] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
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# [18:57] <glazou> the best ones I had in my own life are in here in Paris and in NYC a block from BH Photo IIRC
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Setting a counter without creating a new scope was defined a year ago, in Counter Styles, with the counter-set property.
# [18:58] <dbaron> TabAtkins, ok, so we did add counter-set :-)
# [18:58] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I didn't realize the counter styles draft had things other than counter styles in it
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> It defines counters, in general.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Which are separable from lists.
# [18:59] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: isn’t it in Lists rather than Counter Styles?
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Whoops, yes it is.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Forget my justification from a second ago.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> The counter-manipualting properties are in Lists.
# [18:59] * glazou needs to run; bye people
# [19:01] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Stearns, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were glenn, dael, +1.917.207.aaaa, dauwhe, glazou, abinader, plinss, SGalineau, krit, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, [Bloomberg], antonp, Bert, smfr, Plh, SteveZ,
# [19:01] <Zakim> ... BrianKardell, leif, BradK, Koji, dbaron, MaRakow, Rossen_, tantek
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# [19:05] <sgalineau> glazou: actually, yes
# [19:06] <sgalineau> or rather, very close to it
# [19:06] <sgalineau> also, not the usually massive US bagels. those are the proper size afaik
# [19:06] <sgalineau> http://eltana.com/menu/
# [19:07] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:08] <tantek> rossen, are we running next week?
# [19:09] <tantek> maybe Tue morning
# [19:12] <plh> how long would the running be?
# [19:14] * sgalineau loves running around lake union. less fond of doing it this time of year, however
# [19:14] <Ms2ger> plh, for as long as tantek feels like chasing you :)
# [19:15] <sgalineau> there is a visual
# [19:15] * dauwhe anyone want to go ski mountaineering on Saturday?
# [19:16] <plh> ms2ger, hum, there might not be an end to that. he might be too motivated :)
# [19:16] <tantek> plh ~10k
# [19:17] <dauwhe> tantek: how fast?
# [19:17] <tantek> are you a runner Ms2ger?
# [19:17] <Ms2ger> Only when I need to catch a train
# [19:18] <tantek> dauwhe - somewhere in the 55min-1hr range. not very fast.
# [19:19] <plh> I could probably do a not very fast 10k
# [19:20] <leif> dauwhe: I'd go if I got in earlier that day!
# [19:21] <dauwhe> leif: hoping to go to Muir Snowfields on Mt. Rainier, but logistics are not looking good.
# [19:21] <tantek> basic idea: *before* breakfast at the hotel, maybe ~6:30-7:30.
# [19:22] <plh> tantek, works for me
# [19:28] * tantek will pack his running gear for Seattle then.
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# [19:39] <leif> dauwhe: unfortunately I'll arrive pretty late, but would be fun
# [19:40] <leif> s/would be/would have been/
# [19:44] <Rossen_> I'd love to go for a run (you pick the distance) but it'd be hard for me to make 6:30 in Seattle if I've no place to shower :)
# [19:44] <Rossen_> If Adobe has showers in their building we can go for a pre-lunch run along the canal - it's pretty there
# [19:45] <astearns> we do have showers, but not in the areas your badges will access. You'll need an Adobe person to let you in there (I'm planning on being in early most days)
# [19:49] <Rossen_> awesome! So we can do lunch runs. Tantek?
# [19:51] <tantek> Rosse, you're talking pre-lunch right? do you think we'll have sufficient time? like maybe 20-30min tops?
# [19:52] <Rossen_> we'll make the time
# [19:52] <Rossen_> otherwise we can do the am near Adobe and ask Alan to let us have shower
# [19:53] <tantek> IIRC the breakfast from the hotel is pretty filling, so I'd be up for either pre-breakfast or pre-lunch
# [19:54] <Rossen_> the pre-lunch will be better for me so let's shoot for that?
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# [19:56] <tantek> also likely to be sunnier/warmer so that's good. hoping the chairs give us 90+ min for lunch rather than 60 so we have time to run + rinse off.
# [19:57] <Rossen_> it is usually 90 mins right? 12 - 1:30?
# [19:58] <tantek> sgalineau, what have mid-day temperatures been like outside the Adobe offices?
# [19:58] <sgalineau> varied between low-40s to low-50s
# [19:58] <sgalineau> but the lake can be windy; and given enough wind and drizzle it can feel very cold
# [19:59] <sgalineau> so far forecast is good, except for Tuesday
# [20:00] <sgalineau> we use 90mn for lunch? really?
# [20:00] <sgalineau> anyway. if you guys want to run mid-day i'm happy to give you access to the lockers/showers
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# [20:06] <dauwhe> leif: Opera should host a CSSWG meeting in Norway during ski season :)
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# [20:09] <sgalineau> I think you're saying Opera should hold a meeting between October and June?
# [20:09] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [20:10] <dauwhe> sgalineau: the specs would progress faster if the F2F lasted from October to June. But never in Shenzhen!
# [20:12] <sgalineau> <shudder>Shenzhen</shudder>
# [20:12] <plh> I'll pass on the mid-day run. I'm only a pre-breakfast type of runner
# [20:12] <tantek> plh - we can go for a quick/short pre-breakfast run too if you'd like
# [20:12] <tantek> I also prefer pre-breakfast running on a daily basis
# [20:12] <plh> I like pre-breakfast, so let's do it
# [20:13] <tantek> maybe 7-7:30 then
# [20:14] <sgalineau> also, if anyone rows there is a rowing club right by the office.
# [20:14] <plh> dauwhe, you don't phrase properly: the f2f will be in Shenzen and won't be adjourned until the specs are done :)
# [20:14] <sgalineau> well, that is one way to empty the CSSWG
# [20:14] <plh> as far as I remember, it's dangerous to go on a boat during a css f2f
# [20:15] <sgalineau> plh, you would push yourself in the water?
# [20:15] <sgalineau> taht's some serious commitment to tradition
# [20:15] <plh> :)
# [20:17] <sgalineau> officially, no one in the CSSWG falls in the water. We just have a policy of helping people upgrade their smartphones.
# [20:17] <Ms2ger> Ha
# [20:17] <Ms2ger> Is annevk invited?
# [20:18] <sgalineau> if he were, would he come?
# [20:19] <Ms2ger> If there's water nearby? Who knows...
# [20:20] <sgalineau> you may have a point there. we'll have british people to say things like 'SHEDULE'. we lack someone who will say we suck every 15mn.
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> Only every 15 minutes?
# [20:26] <tantek> Ms2ger - it was a slow day
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# Session Close: Thu Jan 23 00:00:00 2014

The end :)