/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-01-23 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  22. # [02:34] <Liam> interesting, i'm given credit for "improving" the "css figures" document that I'd never even seen before
  23. # [02:39] <SimonSapin> Liam: It and CSS Books are from GCPM
  24. # [02:40] <SimonSapin> GCPM calls it Page Floats, IIRC
  25. # [02:45] <Liam> SimonSapin, still not really cricket, as they say, to imply that the css figures doc at whatwg has my "blessing' in some way
  26. # [02:45] <Liam> (I think it sucks royally, actually)
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  30. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> You *did* improve the document, though! (Assuming you improved the Page Floats feature in GCPM.)
  31. # [03:01] <SimonSapin> Liam: I don’t think that acknowledgment that you improved it implies "blessing"
  32. # [03:02] <SimonSapin> but if you want your name removed I’m sure Håkon can do that
  33. # [03:03] <Liam> Tab, well, indirectly. I've no idea if I did or not to be honest and I don't think it's worth a battle, I just don't like the false statement
  34. # [03:03] <Liam> I commented on a document that was used to create it, that would be OK
  35. # [03:07] <Liam> I do wonder if grid, page floats and the running-header page box stuff could be combined useeflly though
  36. # [03:14] <astearns> Liam: I don't think page floats can even usefully be combined with each other. Stacking from the bottom to the top doesn't fit any usage pattern I'm aware of
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  38. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yeah, the bottom floats I'm aware of still stack top-to-bottom, they're just aligned to the bottom of the page.
  39. # [03:18] <Liam> My take is that css figures handles very few cases and uses cryptic property names, e.g. "snap makes the object snap to the nearest edge unless you say snap(1.5em) is given and then it does something different, except on thursdays"
  40. # [03:18] <Liam> but I have not bought into CSS floats as the fundamental building block for the universe I'm afraid
  41. # [03:18] <Liam> that's actually ice cream beer floats.
  42. # [03:18] <astearns> Liam: I was with you until that last bit
  43. # [03:19] <astearns> I'm an orange float man myself
  44. # [03:19] <Liam> e.g. it's common for images to float to some point other than the top/bottom/side of the page, and for things not actually figures (e.g. tables) to float too, and they need to be numbered in the order they appear on the page *after* floating
  45. # [03:19] <Liam> ah ok :)
  46. # [03:19] <Liam> "See Figure 3" is going to be awfully confusing if it's the top-most one.
  47. # [03:20] <astearns> yes
  48. # [03:20] <astearns> I think it's much more promising to use grid areas than extend floats
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  50. # [03:22] <Liam> oh, I think extending floats may be part of the answer. float: centre; is pretty useful too for that matter. But yes, float to named area, stack downwards, is 10000 times more useful
  51. # [03:23] <Liam> we could call those named areas re.... *oops* er... "text and float receptacles"
  52. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> *center. We speak Murrican in CSS.
  53. # [03:24] <Liam> oops sorry sir.
  54. # [03:24] * Liam has had soooooo many problems with centre and gray/grey over the years!
  55. # [03:24] <astearns> @⚐ canadian-english
  56. # [03:24] <Liam> :D
  57. # [03:24] <TabAtkins> At least CSS doesn't take a position in the gray/grey debate.
  58. # [03:25] <Liam> oh, and colour/color :)
  59. # [03:25] <Liam> border: 3px solid grey;
  60. # [03:26] <Liam> \o/
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  63. # [03:47] <dauwhe> Footnotes complicate things, too, and currently work off the float property.
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  65. # [04:22] <Liam> yes, they do
  66. # [04:22] <Liam> I did comment on gcpm that only one level of footnotes is not sufficient
  67. # [04:22] <Liam> and the gcpm design didn't seem to scale to multiple streams of footnotes
  68. # [04:25] <Liam> I think the problem is that Håkon has formatted some very very simple books and is thinking he has done the 80% case of all print formatting in the world, although I don't want that to sound like a personal attack, the documents just have to be starting points
  69. # [04:26] <Liam> (I did make the mistake of reading his rant against xsl-fo, though, which put me in a bad mood)
  70. # [04:29] <dauwhe> Liam: I think that having float: footnote and then handling all the different cases by styling @footnote is very problematic.
  71. # [04:30] <dauwhe> I agree that I don't see how it can be extended.
  72. # [04:31] <Liam> the answer might be to make 'footnote' be a user-defined name
  73. # [04:31] <Liam> with footnote predeclared
  74. # [04:31] <Liam> not sure
  75. # [04:31] <Liam> how do you make a footnote float on the left? It's all very quick-and-dirty-hackish to me
  76. # [04:32] <dauwhe> Prince how has float: footnote, float: inline-footnote, float: column-footnote, etc. So the footnote area just collects the footnotes, rather than defining them.
  77. # [04:32] <Liam> yeah, that's closer, should be tied to grid names or something probably
  78. # [04:32] <dauwhe> Probably not ideal, but it's much easier to get several kinds of footnotes at once with that approach.
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  80. # [04:33] * Liam using antenna house but not doing footnotes right now
  81. # [04:33] <Liam> btw, will you be at XML Prague? probably not I suppose. I'm giving a talk about moving from XSL-FO to CSS
  82. # [04:33] * dauwhe I installed AntennaHouse just to run GCPM tests. My demo expires next Tuesday :(
  83. # [04:34] <dauwhe> Alas, no. Hoping for Balisage, as I've never been.
  84. # [04:34] <Liam> and some of the exciting things one encounters such as selector specificness (not an issue in XSL-FO as you put the property where you want it)
  85. # [04:34] <Liam> ah ok
  86. # [04:34] <Liam> Balisage tends to be less practical, or rather, more theoretical
  87. # [04:34] <Liam> but is in the US this year
  88. # [04:35] <Liam> markupforum.de also has quite a few xsl-fo people attending
  89. # [04:36] <dauwhe> Half my troubleshooting with our Prince stuff is dealing with selector specificity. The cascade gives us great power, but exacts a terrible price :)
  90. # [04:36] <Liam> yes
  91. # [04:36] <Liam> that and getting page margins for running headers under control :)
  92. # [04:37] <Liam> I miss XSLT's priority="100" to override the specificity rules
  93. # [04:37] <dauwhe> I've used that more times than I will admit.
  94. # [04:37] <Liam> :)
  95. # [04:38] <Liam> it's not a crime.
  96. # [04:38] <dauwhe> Maybe we need !important, !!important, !!!important, etc. in CSS
  97. # [04:38] <Liam> or !important=3 or something
  98. # [04:40] <dauwhe> The mathematicians will flee in terror.
  99. # [04:40] <Liam> :)
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  102. # [04:41] <Liam> there we go!
  103. # [04:42] <dauwhe> Prince can mix inline and block footnotes. That's cool!
  104. # [04:43] <Liam> oh cool
  105. # [04:44] <Liam> how?
  106. # [04:44] <dauwhe> you can mix elements with float: footnote and float: prince-inline-footnote
  107. # [04:45] <Liam> ah, so you have to say which are block and which are inline in advance
  108. # [04:45] <Liam> hmm, well, I could probably live with that :)
  109. # [04:45] <dauwhe> Yeah, it doesn't try to fit things neatly.
  110. # [04:45] <Liam> hmm, well ok, maybe not optimal
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  172. # [09:00] <glazou> CSS WG members, don't forget the doodle about the may ftf in Korea ; thanks ; EOM
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  209. # [17:51] <astearns> lol at http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/74287226319/web-destruction-plans-finally-revealed
  210. # [17:51] <astearns> why can't I have fragment containers with frikken laser beams? Is that really too much to ask?
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  214. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> astearns, *fragmentainers :)
  215. # [18:09] <gsnedders> I FUCKING LOVE YOU GUYS FOR WRITING THAT SPEC.
  216. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Sorry, that has made my day. :)
  217. # [18:09] <astearns> css-break, or css-regions?
  218. # [18:10] <gsnedders> -break
  219. # [18:11] <astearns> Breaking the Web, one fragment at a time :)
  220. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: No takebacks!
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  278. # [22:30] <krit> TabAtkins: why no CSSFunctionValue? Thinking about filter functions or transform functions
  279. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> krit: I might do that, and subclass it for each particular function.
  280. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Note the paragraph right after that list talking about functions.
  281. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Not 100% sure how to best handle them yet.
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  284. # [22:54] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Does "If a property is list-valued" means comma-separated lists?
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  286. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: other than that, is the API based on Syntax’s idea of component values?
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  290. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's what it means. With the one exception of the counter-* properties, which are list-valued but don't use comma-separated syntax because they were designed wrong.
  291. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> And yes, the CSSValue objects correspond with Syntax's component values.
  292. # [23:27] <SimonSapin> can we move something between two CRs without going back to LC?
  293. # [23:27] <SimonSapin> (environment encoding for @import, from Syntax to Cascade)
  294. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hah, good question.
  295. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Since it's moving between CRs, I suspect we can sell it.
  296. # [23:30] <SimonSapin> HTML now defines it for <link rel=stylesheet> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-stylesheet
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The end :)