/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-01-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 30 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <birtles> ... they look like C preprocessor defines but they don't behave like that
  4. # [00:00] <birtles> ... it would be easy to forget the colon when you use it
  5. # [00:00] <dbaron> smfr: in @custom-selector :_foo the : looks a it like a property declaration
  6. # [00:00] <dbaron> ... so the space couldend up on the wrong side
  7. # [00:00] <birtles> ... I like the feature but not the syntax
  8. # [00:00] <birtles> TabAtkins: happy to change the syntax
  9. # [00:00] * sgalineau will-change: syntax;
  10. # [00:00] * Parts: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  11. # [00:01] <birtles> florian: this syntax proposed for media queries is fine, I think, but I can see the concern for selectors
  12. # [00:01] <dbaron> smfr: Also concerned about the extra parentheses in media queries
  13. # [00:02] <dbaron> dbaron: agree with florian... though I wouldn't mind seeing () rules change
  14. # [00:02] <birtles> glazou: how does this relate to CSS hierarchies?
  15. # [00:02] * ed will-change: notarial;
  16. # [00:02] <birtles> TabAtkins: it doesn't
  17. # [00:03] * astearns sel-foo to define, sel(foo) to use
  18. # [00:03] <birtles> glazou: does it impact it? is having both too much?
  19. # [00:03] * birtles will-change: scribe
  20. # [00:03] <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
  21. # [00:03] * birtles thank you!
  22. # [00:03] <glazou> Tab: nesting is very close if not identical to what we get from preproc
  23. # [00:04] <glazou> Tab: I also have a proposal for script-based custom selectors
  24. # [00:04] <glazou> … you define a name
  25. # [00:04] <glazou> … a function and when it's evaluated
  26. # [00:04] <glazou> … and a base selector that has to be fulfilled first
  27. # [00:04] <glazou> … (tab reads spec)
  28. # [00:04] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  29. # [00:04] <glazou> … based on mutation observers
  30. # [00:05] <glazou> … whenever a mutation comes in we try to reevaluate the function
  31. # [00:05] <glazou> heycam, re you afraid of style flashes because of events order and stuff?
  32. # [00:05] <glazou> Tab, no
  33. # [00:06] <glazou> Tab, was waiting for an infinite loop question
  34. # [00:06] <glazou> florian, might be brilliant but :-)
  35. # [00:06] <glazou> TabAtkins, very close to an existing lib by bkardell
  36. # [00:06] <glazou> smfr, don't thjink WebKit will ever want to run JS in the middle here
  37. # [00:07] <glazou> heycam, if you want to implement it yourself, you can set a classname from a mutation observer
  38. # [00:07] <glazou> smfr, I don't like it either
  39. # [00:07] <glazou> florian, a way to retrigger evaluation of this?
  40. # [00:07] <glazou> TabAtkins, there is something in the issue
  41. # [00:08] <glazou> TabAtkins explains extra bits of the proposal
  42. # [00:08] <glazou> SimonSapin, worth separating the API into two
  43. # [00:08] <glazou> SimonSapin, first part substitutions
  44. # [00:08] <glazou> SimonSapin, that part is less controversial
  45. # [00:09] <glazou> TabAtkins, the script api of custom MQ is super powerful
  46. # [00:10] <glazou> TabAtkins, I really want the MQ part
  47. # [00:10] <glazou> TabAtkins, having to repeat MQ everywhere in your page is terrible
  48. # [00:11] <glazou> TabAtkins, another option for script based selectors is assign a name and list of elements
  49. # [00:11] <glazou> heycam, this is a simpler model
  50. # [00:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  51. # [00:13] <SimonSapin> glazou: Earlier we said we want to deprecate media types in favor of media features
  52. # [00:13] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  53. # [00:13] <smfr> ScribeNick: SimonSapin
  54. # [00:13] <SimonSapin> glazou: that implies that web authors are gonna write @media (screen) instead of @media screen
  55. # [00:13] * sgalineau note to chairs: coffee/food are here
  56. # [00:13] <dbaron> Tab^: being able to fill in a map walking over the document doesn't have much advantage over walking over the document setting a class
  57. # [00:13] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: If authors want to do that they can, still better than media types
  58. # [00:14] <SimonSapin> glazou: it’s another argument against the () around custom media, or for allowing the current media types in ()
  59. # [00:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: disagree, media types a bad in general. Carry more that you want
  60. # [00:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: if you want to disable animations, you should target 'updates', not 'print'
  61. # [00:15] <SimonSapin> glazou: we will have to have a section mapping media types to lists of media features
  62. # [00:15] <SimonSapin> florian: I think that’s a bad idea, they will just copy-paste that list
  63. # [00:15] <SimonSapin> florian: It’d be better if they’d queried for just one feature
  64. # [00:16] <SimonSapin> glazou: will follow up on email
  65. # [00:16] <glazou> TabAtkins, requesting a new ED
  66. # [00:16] <glazou> florian, find another name please
  67. # [00:17] <glazou> ChrisL, antialiasing ?
  68. # [00:17] <glazou> glazou, any objection ?
  69. # [00:17] <glazou> TabAtkins, preferred is to put the MQ part in MQ 4, ...
  70. # [00:17] <glazou> SimonSapin, er Selectors have to be independent from CSS
  71. # [00:18] <glazou> SimonSapin, what about selectors API ?
  72. # [00:18] <glazou> TabAtkins, yes!
  73. # [00:18] <SimonSapin> s/Selectors have to/we wanted Selectors to/
  74. # [00:19] <glazou> TabAtkins, MQ in MQ4 and Sel in Selectors ?
  75. # [00:19] <glazou> dbaron, API part not ready yet
  76. # [00:19] <dbaron> (script selectors)
  77. # [00:19] * sgalineau First Speculative Working Draft sounds like it should be a thing
  78. # [00:19] <dbaron> dbaron: but happy to see it go in drafts
  79. # [00:19] <glazou> TabAtkins, right
  80. # [00:20] * Rossen_f2f First Speculative Dream Draft will be even better
  81. # [00:20] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  82. # [00:20] <glazou> glazou, I don't want to see an at-rule inside the Selectors spec
  83. # [00:21] <glazou> TabAtkins, then Custom Selectors spec
  84. # [00:21] <glazou> glazou, fine by me
  85. # [00:22] <glazou> SimonSapin trolls Tab on spec dependencies
  86. # [00:22] <dbaron> SimonSapin: Aren't MQ also independent of CSS?
  87. # [00:23] <glazou> RESOLVED: MQ part of TabAtkins's proposal to be added to MQ4, new ED for Custom Selectors granted
  88. # [00:23] <dbaron> #now { coffee-break-after: always }
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  105. # [00:57] <Bert> ScribeNick: Bert
  106. # [00:57] <Bert> Topic: CSSOM Value-based API
  107. # [00:58] <smfr> TabAtkins shows http://www.xanthir.com/b4UD0
  108. # [00:58] <Bert> TabAtkins: After long time thinking, I'm ready to propose one. Got approval from colleagues who would implement it.
  109. # [00:58] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  110. # [00:59] <Bert> ... We implemented DOM2 and are trying to remove it now.
  111. # [00:59] <Bert> ... Because it is terrible for many reasons.
  112. # [00:59] <Bert> ... Exposing specialized forms for a property is probabbaly useful.
  113. # [01:00] <Bert> ... But it is not a direct tranlation of the property.
  114. # [01:00] <Bert> ... At base level I refuse that.
  115. # [01:00] <Bert> ... Might be future level.
  116. # [01:00] <Bert> ... DOM2 could not return value of a shorthand.
  117. # [01:00] * Joins: Rossen_f2f (~Rossen_f2f@public.cloak)
  118. # [01:00] <Rossen_f2f> LOL
  119. # [01:00] <Bert> ... We should also make it look more like JS.
  120. # [01:00] <Bert> ... And efficient.
  121. # [01:01] <Bert> ... Looking at what we changed in propertie sover the years.
  122. # [01:01] <Bert> ... Simple propoerties can later become complex, from one value to a list of values.
  123. # [01:02] <Bert> ... Calling it "el.css" (rather than el.style), but it's just a name.
  124. # [01:02] <Bert> ... el.css.backgroundImage (CamelCase)
  125. # [01:03] <Bert> ... JS can now do things like .float, even if float is a keyword, because of the preceding "."
  126. # [01:03] <Bert> ... E.g., width will be an array of length|keyword]
  127. # [01:03] <Bert> ... If you assign a single value, it'll be equiv to an array with one value.
  128. # [01:04] <Bert> ... The values are immutable values.
  129. # [01:04] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  130. # [01:04] <Bert> ... Every "10px" object is the same single object.
  131. # [01:04] <Bert> ... Poeple pushing for 64-bit ints.
  132. # [01:05] <Bert> ... So next year we'll have fully immutable objects.
  133. # [01:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  134. # [01:05] <Bert> You could write ".width: 5px" which looks exactly like CSS.
  135. # [01:05] <Bert> s/:/=/
  136. # [01:06] <Bert> ... The "5px" is an immutable object.
  137. # [01:06] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
  138. # [01:06] <Bert> ... You can ask for the .px of 5px and get 5.
  139. # [01:07] <Bert> ... When yu ask for getcomputedstyle, you'll get the em as well.
  140. # [01:07] <Bert> glazou: Can you ask fro something like ".%"? Syntax issue?
  141. # [01:07] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  142. # [01:08] <Bert> TabAtkins: 5px is CSS.px(5)
  143. # [01:08] <glazou> you cannot write el.css.width = 10% because % is an operator you have to use CSS.percent(10)\
  144. # [01:08] <Bert> ... Constructor.
  145. # [01:08] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  146. # [01:09] <Bert> ... After el.css.width = 5px you can get el.computedCSS.width.vw (and .em and .px and .percent) and it will be computed.
  147. # [01:09] <Bert> ... Other accessors as needed.
  148. # [01:10] <Bert> krit: [missed question]
  149. # [01:10] <Bert> astearns: THis is inline style? Might want to call it InlineCSS.
  150. # [01:10] <Bert> TabAtkins: Yes, this is inline style.
  151. # [01:10] <krit> s/[missed question]/Is .css the element style/
  152. # [01:11] <Bert> SimonSapin: Percent is null?
  153. # [01:11] <Bert> TabAtkins: Yes, .percent cannot be computed, needs layout.
  154. # [01:11] <Bert> florian: Is there a typo in the example?
  155. # [01:11] <Bert> TabAtkins: Yes, sorry. Needs [0]
  156. # [01:12] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  157. # [01:12] <Bert> ... List needs to have same value at given index all the time [?]
  158. # [01:12] <Bert> ... Precise data structure, order of values.
  159. # [01:13] <Bert> glazou: If you query .width, I'd like to qurey waht the unit was, i.e., get "px" back.
  160. # [01:13] <Bert> TabAtkins: Not in proposal right now, but planning to.
  161. # [01:14] <Bert> ... If you pull a computed value, the unit may not be available anymore.
  162. # [01:14] <Bert> ... It'll say "px" in that case, arbitrarily.
  163. # [01:14] <Bert> florian: So if a property accepts repeated foo and bar, an in next level it accepts repeated foo, bar and baz?
  164. # [01:15] <Bert> TabAtkins: In a list, you get first value in a list. It is an array of arrays in reality.
  165. # [01:16] <Bert> ... After el.style.bgAttachment="scroll, fixed"
  166. # [01:17] <Bert> ... you get: el.css.bgAttachment => [CSSVal("scroll")]
  167. # [01:17] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  168. # [01:18] <Bert> ... and: el.css.bgAttachment.1 => [[CSSVal("scroll")],[CSSVal("fixed")]]
  169. # [01:18] <Bert> heycam: Thimgs that aren't lists, say a pair, how is that handled?
  170. # [01:19] <Bert> TabAtkins: Say you have <length> <length now and later we'll have <length> <ident> <length>
  171. # [01:19] <Bert> ... First you would get el.css.foo => [1px,20px]
  172. # [01:20] <Bert> ... Later you would get [1px,20px,...]
  173. # [01:20] <Bert> plinss: [missed]
  174. # [01:21] <Bert> szilles: You would have to cycl through array.
  175. # [01:21] <Bert> TabAtkins: Not super happy about my arrays, we can dcide for objects later.
  176. # [01:21] <Bert> astearns: Go with map idea and let Tab name everything. :-)
  177. # [01:22] <Bert> heycam: Shorthands also give an array back?
  178. # [01:22] <astearns> resolve to accept Tab's names for everything before he even starts
  179. # [01:22] <Bert> ... Say font, which has a slash?
  180. # [01:22] <Bert> TabAtkins: The slash is not returned, it is just part of the punctuation for ambiguous values.
  181. # [01:22] <Bert> plinss: ...
  182. # [01:23] <SimonSapin> s/.../personal preference, I hate single-letter names/
  183. # [01:23] <Bert> TabAtkins: Named values must not collide with [?]
  184. # [01:23] <Bert> florian: Custom properties?
  185. # [01:23] <Bert> TabAtkins: Probably a list of tokens.
  186. # [01:23] <Bert> florian: At rules?
  187. # [01:23] <Bert> ... selectors, etc.?
  188. # [01:24] <Bert> TabAtkins: Haven't thought through those yet.
  189. # [01:24] <Bert> ... Properties most important for me.
  190. # [01:24] <Bert> ... Is first step.
  191. # [01:24] <Bert> florian: At least think through it if it is compatible, without actually writing the spec.
  192. # [01:25] <Bert> heycam: Can you define operator overloading between customn types and stadard types?
  193. # [01:25] <Bert> TabAtkins: Yes, you can.
  194. # [01:25] <Bert> ... Yes, overlaod can be parametried by type.
  195. # [01:25] <Bert> ... So "5px + 10px" can be valid.
  196. # [01:26] <Bert> florian: And "10px + 10%"?
  197. # [01:26] <Bert> TabAtkins: Yes, that would return a calc() object.
  198. # [01:26] <heycam> |el.css.width + el.css.width| wouldn't work since they're both Array objects
  199. # [01:26] <Bert> TabAtkins: You cannot overlaod plain objects.
  200. # [01:27] <Bert> ... Also have a proposal that I call CSS.convert()
  201. # [01:27] <plinss> s/plinss: [missed]/plinss: maybe don't return arrays and only return maps/
  202. # [01:27] <Bert> ... Converts as much as possible.
  203. # [01:28] <Bert> ... var x = 32px;
  204. # [01:28] <Bert> ... Now x.em is null.
  205. # [01:29] <Bert> ... After el.css.fontSize = 16px, CSS.convert(x, el).em returns 2
  206. # [01:29] <Bert> ... This is current;y a big braindump.
  207. # [01:29] <Bert> ... Not asking for anything in particular right now.
  208. # [01:29] <Bert> ... If it is terrible, tell me.
  209. # [01:30] <Bert> krit: Agenda request: filter effects and custom filters.
  210. # [01:30] <Bert> Topic: Custom filters removed?
  211. # [01:30] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/filters/
  212. # [01:30] <Bert> krit: We had to limit tham already because of security.
  213. # [01:31] <Bert> ... And they don't have the expected power.
  214. # [01:31] <Bert> ... Current impls have problems with them.
  215. # [01:31] <Bert> ... Especisally with combined customg and standard filters.
  216. # [01:31] <Bert> ... (Not all impls.)
  217. # [01:32] <Bert> ... We still believe in filter effects, but custom filters isn't the right solution.
  218. # [01:32] <Bert> Simon: We removed them in webkit, so supported.
  219. # [01:32] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  220. # [01:32] <Bert> krit: New feature would not use shaders.
  221. # [01:33] <Bert> ChrisL: Seems slightly sad.
  222. # [01:33] * Joins: {Darktears} (~darktears@public.cloak)
  223. # [01:33] <Bert> ... But if two impls removed them already...
  224. # [01:33] <Bert> krit: No impls currently remaining.
  225. # [01:33] <Bert> Rossen_f2f: What was this again?
  226. # [01:34] <ChrisL> s/sad/sad since Microsoft added webGL support/
  227. # [01:34] <Bert> krit: Pixel manip with WebGL
  228. # [01:34] <Bert> heycam: Plan for replacment?
  229. # [01:34] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  230. # [01:34] <Bert> krit: Looking for more use cases, providing hit testing effects.
  231. # [01:34] <Bert> ... hit testing was a pb with current solution.
  232. # [01:35] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  233. # [01:35] <Bert> heycam: So no future for generic shader-like thing?
  234. # [01:35] <Bert> krit: Many users were relying on pixel shaders, but they were security threat, so we had to limit them already.
  235. # [01:35] <Bert> ... Couldn't actually llok at color value.
  236. # [01:38] <Bert> ... We want to come up with a proposal, nd want feedback.
  237. # [01:38] <Bert> ... More fous on use case of CSS.
  238. # [01:38] <Bert> heycam: A bit afraid to geta 100 different canned effects...
  239. # [01:38] <Bert> florian: What is th proposal?
  240. # [01:38] <Bert> krit: Not is presentable shape yet.
  241. # [01:38] <Bert> Rossen_f2f: Can we remove after seeing the new proposal?
  242. # [01:38] <Bert> sgalineau: But it is holding up the spec.
  243. # [01:38] <Bert> ChrisL: Defer removal a bit?
  244. # [01:39] <Bert> sgalineau: The feature will go away, so what do we get by keepin git in a bit longer?
  245. # [01:39] <ChrisL> s/Defer/Are you asking to defer/
  246. # [01:39] <Bert> krit: I'm more focussing on SVG filters at th moment, and bringing that to LC.
  247. # [01:39] <sgalineau> the feature would end up at risk so not sure what the value of keeping it around
  248. # [01:40] <Bert> plinss: So take out? move to future level?
  249. # [01:40] <Bert> krit: Otherimpls might take it up again.
  250. # [01:40] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
  251. # [01:40] <Bert> Rossen_f2f: Like to defer by a week.
  252. # [01:40] <Bert> krit: OK with me.
  253. # [01:41] <Bert> sgalineau: What do we get in a week?
  254. # [01:41] <Bert> RESOLVED: take custom shaders out in a week, unless somebody objects before that.
  255. # [01:43] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  256. # [01:43] <Bert> Topic: backgrounds and colors and outlines in SVG
  257. # [01:43] <Bert> shepazu: Sometimes want to use outlines and colors, e.g., on hover.
  258. # [01:43] <Bert> ... SVG doens't have on-hover effetc on it sown.
  259. # [01:44] <Bert> ... Have to find the bounding box yourself.
  260. # [01:44] <Bert> ... These effectsdo no affect flow.
  261. # [01:44] <Bert> krit: :hover is supported.
  262. # [01:44] <Bert> ChrisL: What spec?
  263. # [01:44] <Bert> krit: it is automatic.
  264. # [01:45] <Bert> shepazu: Is this a terrible idea?
  265. # [01:45] <Bert> ... Would we allow whole background thing, or just color?
  266. # [01:45] <Bert> ... Fill area would be bounding box of element.
  267. # [01:45] <Bert> ... Use case is hover.
  268. # [01:46] <Bert> krit: Why not add an element behind it?
  269. # [01:46] <Bert> shepazu: Kind of a pain. I've done it.
  270. # [01:46] <Bert> ... Keep track of transforms, etc, yourself.
  271. # [01:47] <Bert> ... It is not perfect, but it is a start.
  272. # [01:47] <Bert> ... Could add stroke effetcs to the outline also, vector effects.
  273. # [01:47] <Bert> ... But simple thing now, and rest for futire.
  274. # [01:48] <Bert> heycam: [showing something]
  275. # [01:49] <Bert> ... Approaches in the past included filters, and filling boundign box with color. Bit of a hack.
  276. # [01:49] <Bert> shepazu: I prefer "on hover, background = white"
  277. # [01:49] <Bert> krit: Sceptical about background. Don't see use case.
  278. # [01:49] * Quits: kazutaka (~kazutaka@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  279. # [01:49] <Bert> ... Dont think thi is what you really want to have.
  280. # [01:50] <Bert> ... Consider a complex shape, rectangle behnd iit is not what you want.
  281. # [01:50] <Bert> simonf: repeated images with fill?
  282. # [01:50] <Bert> krit: Yes, just decided today :-)
  283. # [01:51] <Bert> shepazu: I suggested things that don't change reflow.
  284. # [01:52] <Bert> [discussion of what it shuld look like for differnet shapes]
  285. # [01:53] <Bert> shepazu: SVG often used for icons.
  286. # [01:53] <Bert> krit: Icons dfon't have hover.
  287. # [01:53] <Bert> simonf: Often element behind the icon has the hover.
  288. # [01:53] * Parts: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) (emalasky)
  289. # [01:54] <Bert> krit: Outline for accessibility.
  290. # [01:54] <Bert> ChrisL: I'd like to find out the concerns of the CSS WG with this.
  291. # [01:55] <ChrisL> s/ChrisL/shepazu
  292. # [01:55] <Bert> [CSS WG has no opinion]
  293. # [01:55] <Bert> ChrisL: More concensus on outline than on bg
  294. # [01:56] <Bert> florian: CSS doesn't have def of where outline goes, does it?
  295. # [01:56] <Bert> dbaron: Correct. I have thought about it, but not finihed.
  296. # [01:57] <Bert> florian: I remember something about 3d transforms making outline harder.
  297. # [01:57] <Bert> krit: Outline gets smaller when object is smaller because of clip path, but we decided recently that outline shoulf actually be clipped.
  298. # [01:57] <ed> svg tiny 1.2 has viewport-fill and viewport-fill-opacity properties that are similar to what shepazu is asking for with bg, though more limited in which elements they apply to
  299. # [01:58] <Bert> heycam: Does CSS define outline is outside the box?
  300. # [01:58] <Bert> dbaron: We have or had an outline-offset.
  301. # [01:59] <Bert> florian: I tink we have neither a def nor interop.
  302. # [01:59] <Bert> leif: Significant latitude for impls.
  303. # [01:59] <Bert> ChrisL: That was certainly so with the orig def.
  304. # [02:00] <Bert> leif: Not even defined if it is on top of everyhting, or only on top of the elt.
  305. # [02:01] <Bert> ... But outline-offset is not problemeatic, but don't know about interop.
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  308. # [02:02] <Bert> [End of meeting]
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  317. # [02:11] <ed> RRSAgent, make minutes
  318. # [02:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-css-minutes.html ed
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  422. # [14:57] <Henke37> so I am reading the minutes about the discussion of the grid layout
  423. # [14:58] <Henke37> never mind, I forgot to read the details
  424. # [14:59] <Henke37> for a different topic, how can css be used to do a layout similiar to the masonry js solution?
  425. # [14:59] <Henke37> for those unfamiliar with it: columns where the shortest column is filled first
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  428. # [15:37] <astearns> Henke37: the closest thing is grid-auto-flow:dense with auto grid placement
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  430. # [15:38] <Henke37> that is what I could think of too
  431. # [15:38] <astearns> then you can use grid-auto-flow:column to fill columns first
  432. # [15:38] <astearns> I expect there may be specific masonry.js details that aren't matched exactly
  433. # [15:40] <Henke37> I think the main difference is the existence of defined rows
  434. # [15:41] <Henke37> masonry seems to just stack things without any specific rows in mind, those just happen
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The end :)