/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-02-07 / end

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  77. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: You mind waiting until next week for fantasai and I to address your Grid issues?
  78. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: sure, that’s why I’m writing up emails instead of counting on IRC :)
  79. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> (and I’m not done yet…)
  80. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> kk!
  81. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> My plan is to finally buckle down and rewrite the layout algorithm in more understandable terms.
  82. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> !
  83. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> if you’re planning to rewriting it maybe I shouldn’t spend too much time reading it
  84. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> rewrite*
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  87. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: so, for the sizing of grid containers and items, did I miss something or is it not written yet?
  88. # [18:46] <astearns> look look: https://github.com/operasoftware/presto-testo
  89. # [18:47] <Ms2ger`> Fourth channel I see that in :)
  90. # [18:48] <astearns> got to spread the good news
  91. # [18:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we should prioritize Flexbox next week, actually. See if we can push out an LC
  92. # [18:51] * fantasai thinks its more important to stabilize Flexbox atm
  93. # [18:51] <Ms2ger`> Flexbox? Is that still a thing?
  94. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Not sure; I haven't looked at it yet.
  95. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> ok
  96. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: My priorities lean to Grid. ^_^
  97. # [18:53] <fantasai> Yeah, the shortname is still flexbox, even though it's called Flex Layout now.
  98. # [18:53] <fantasai> Yeah, specs always need maintenance.
  99. # [18:53] * fantasai tries to think up other possible answers to Ms2ger's question
  100. # [18:54] <Ms2ger`> I thought it'd shipped long ago :)
  101. # [18:54] <fantasai> Ah. See second answer. :)
  102. # [18:54] <fantasai> Wrt "LC", under the current process "LC" is both
  103. # [18:55] <fantasai> a) transitory phase between WD and CR
  104. # [18:55] <fantasai> b) transitory phase between CR and updated CR
  105. # [18:55] <fantasai> We need a type B LC
  106. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> A CR re-up.
  107. # [18:56] <Ms2ger`> Nah, we don't need any lc ;)
  108. # [18:56] <Ms2ger`> But I'm not going to get into that discussion :)
  109. # [18:56] <fantasai> I think the Process is in the process of agreeing with you :)
  110. # [18:56] <fantasai> But it's a long process
  111. # [18:56] <fantasai> :D
  112. # [18:57] * fantasai needs to work on that, has been ignoring it for the last month
  113. # [18:57] <Ms2ger`> I'd be surprised if it ever really agreed with me, but who knows :)
  114. # [18:57] <fantasai> It will agree with you on that point! Just maybe not on everything :)
  115. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> Is it the Process or the process of updating the Process that is a long process? :)
  116. # [18:58] <fantasai> Technically both? But in the case of my comment, I used consisten capitalization.
  117. # [18:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm aware that you're really excited about completing Grid, but I think it's more important for the Web that we get the flexbox issues sorted so the implementations can be fully synchronized
  118. # [18:59] <fantasai> Grid isn't going to be deployed cross-browser for a long while
  119. # [18:59] <fantasai> Flexbox is there, but inconsistent atm
  120. # [18:59] <Ms2ger`> Is that still Bert's ascii-art Grid?
  121. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> And I disagree - I think getting Grid to a shippable state asap is more important than synchronizing a few small issues in Flexbox.
  122. # [18:59] <fantasai> Because you're on the Chrome team.
  123. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger`: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid
  124. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> ...yes, I am. And?
  125. # [19:00] <fantasai> Ms2ger`: It's a combination of Bert's proposal and MSFT's proposal
  126. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> I'm also someone whos' wanted to use Grid for the last 10 years.
  127. # [19:00] <fantasai> and plinss's proposal
  128. # [19:00] <fantasai> Tab and I merged them all
  129. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Questioning my motives isn't helpful. :/
  130. # [19:00] <fantasai> One Grid Layout to Rule Them All
  131. # [19:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not your motives I'm questioning, I'm just commenting on your biases. They're consistent with the rest of the Chrome team afaict
  132. # [19:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But I think it's also largely a reflection of you, personally :)
  133. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You're more excited about shipping new stuff in your browser that you work for and use.
  134. # [19:02] <SimonSapin> FWIW I’d rather see Grid y’all’s attention :)
  135. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Actually, most people on Chrome couldn't care less about Grid. They're not web authors.
  136. # [19:02] <Ms2ger`> I'd rather see table layout specced :)
  137. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Especially now that we're explicitly geared toward cranking on speed.
  138. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm more concerned with getting the stuff already in the platform smoothed out so that people aren't working around bugs and quirks and other inconsistencies as they're authoring.
  139. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger`: Rewrite your table implementation and spec it along the way. That's the only realistic way that's gonna happen.
  140. # [19:03] <fantasai> Though not so concerned that I want to work on Table Layout
  141. # [19:03] <fantasai> >_____<
  142. # [19:03] <Ms2ger`> TabAtkins, I guess the Servo layout folks could, but none of them seem speccy
  143. # [19:03] * fantasai vaguely remembers hearing that someone is re-implementing table layout
  144. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the problem. :/
  145. # [19:04] <fantasai> maybe it was servo folks. SimonSapin?
  146. # [19:04] <fantasai> Ms2ger`: SimonSapin is speccy!
  147. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> IE *almost* did it during IE8, but they petered out and didn't finish.
  148. # [19:04] <Ms2ger`> SimonSapin!
  149. # [19:04] <SimonSapin> Yes, Servo is in the middle of doing tables
  150. # [19:04] <fantasai> writaspec?
  151. # [19:04] <SimonSapin> Except that I’m not working on Servo atm
  152. # [19:05] <fantasai> make them writaspec
  153. # [19:05] <SimonSapin> I’m doing Grid in Gecko :]
  154. # [19:06] <fantasai> that explains the earlier comment :]
  155. # [19:06] <SimonSapin> yes
  156. # [19:06] <Ms2ger`> fantasai, actually, it's the Samsung people who are doing it... Maybe glazou could spec it ::)
  157. # [19:07] <SimonSapin> ohh, that’s an idea :)
  158. # [19:08] <fantasai> ...
  159. # [19:09] <Ms2ger`> Or abinader
  160. # [19:10] <abinader> oh hai :-)
  161. # [19:10] <Ms2ger`> Hey, want to spec table layout?
  162. # [19:11] <fantasai> great pickup line, Ms2ger` :)
  163. # [19:11] <abinader> sounds like fun
  164. # [19:11] <Ms2ger`> :D
  165. # [19:11] * fantasai rofl
  166. # [19:11] <abinader> hehe
  167. # [19:12] <abinader> ok, let me catch up the conversation
  168. # [19:13] * astearns and we never saw abinader again
  169. # [19:13] <Ms2ger`> abinader, basically, we have a once-a-decade opportunity to spec table layout, and we're missing it: )
  170. # [19:14] * abinader feels like http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-dangerous-to-go-alone-take-this
  171. # [19:14] <fantasai> (It's funny because it's true.)
  172. # [19:14] <abinader> I see, I saw glazou commenting also on page transitions
  173. # [19:15] <Ms2ger`> (Mm, more emails from Adam)
  174. # [19:15] <abinader> yeah, I believe we're up to help on these specs
  175. # [19:15] <fantasai> abinader: For your inventory -- http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-tables/ and http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ may prove useful.
  176. # [19:16] <abinader> fantasai: thanks!
  177. # [19:17] <SimonSapin> abinader: part of http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ is now in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-sizing/
  178. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Basically, the only time anyone's deep enough in table to actually figure out a spec is when they are actively trying to code around the various hidden compat traps.
  179. # [19:17] <fantasai> abinader: You will at some point also want to interview dbaron.
  180. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Those compat traps are the hard and necessary part of a table spec.
  181. # [19:17] <SimonSapin> fantasai: we did that
  182. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Because 2.1 is a filthy lie.
  183. # [19:17] <fantasai> 2.1 tables is largely undefined
  184. # [19:18] <SimonSapin> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/Servo-workweek-tables
  185. # [19:18] * fantasai steals some more cereal
  186. # [19:18] * fantasai "Will spec for food"
  187. # [19:18] <abinader> TabAtkins: in that sense, coding it for Servo would become a good opportunity then
  188. # [19:19] <Ms2ger`> abinader, exactly!
  189. # [19:19] <Ms2ger`> fantasai, wasn't that why we hired you? :)
  190. # [19:23] <fantasai> I don't actually understand why Mozilla hired me. It was cheaper to have me as a contractor.
  191. # [19:23] <abinader> Ms2ger`: right then, I'll have some talks with glazou & Savago about this and we'll come back with some proposal
  192. # [19:23] <Ms2ger`> That would be great
  193. # [19:23] <fantasai> yay!
  194. # [19:23] <Ms2ger`> Don't take no for an answer :)
  195. # [19:24] <fantasai> :)
  196. # [19:24] <abinader> I'm also joining the next F2F in Korea, so hopefully we should have something by that time
  197. # [19:25] * fantasai should figure out this getting paid thing before Korea
  198. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Just had a quick chat with my boss, btw - he just wants to chat with the budget owner to figure out our limits, then we can start just having you submit invoices. ^_^
  199. # [19:27] <fantasai> o_O
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  206. # [20:31] <SimonSapin> Is css3-tables any closer to reality than 2.1?
  207. # [20:43] <fantasai> maybe?
  208. # [20:43] <fantasai> it's got more detail
  209. # [20:43] <fantasai> 2.1 mostly just says "It's undefined"
  210. # [20:44] <fantasai> (I think we fixed most of the bits that were incorrect to be either correct or undefined. Might've missed a few, though.)
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  212. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Tables is sufficiently unfinished that I wouldn't trust it to be close to reality at all.
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  216. # [21:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: well, yes. He said "closer". :) It's not that hard to be "closer", given 2.1 tables as a baseline.
  217. # [21:30] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  218. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> I'm not certain it's reliably "closer", though. It might be! But "some definition" isn't necessarily better than "no definition", if the "some definition" is wrong. ^_^
  219. # [21:48] <fantasai> no doubt about that
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  222. # [22:52] * liam reads about someone trying to set a text and its translation on facing pages, wonder if it'd be a good regions/flows use case
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  231. # [23:28] <astearns> liam quit, but that was my example 3 in page templates
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The end :)