/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-02-19 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 19 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [09:35] <SimonSapin> plinss: Agenda+ Did a transition call happen this week?
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# [17:58] * glazou_ changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0575.html'
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# [17:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-css-irc
# [17:58] <glazou_> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:58] <Zakim> ok, glazou_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
# [17:58] <glazou_> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou_
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# [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:59] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:00] <glazou_> Zakim, ??P4 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou_; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> +dael
# [18:00] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaaa
# [18:01] <dauwhe> Zakim, aaaa is dauwhe
# [18:01] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aabb
# [18:02] <MaRakow> Zakim, +1.206.992.aabb is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:03] <Zakim> +krit
# [18:03] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
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# [18:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P14 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +[Koblenz]
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# [18:04] <rhauck> Zakim, Koblenz is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [18:04] <rhauck> no idea who Koblenz even is
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:05] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:06] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aacc is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:06] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:06] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:07] <glazou> lots of regrets today
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# [18:07] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:08] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
# [18:08] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [18:08] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:08] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:08] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (4%), fantasai (2%)
# [18:08] * sgalineau Agenda summary: * { bike: shed; }
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: Let's start
# [18:09] <dael> ...: I saw the note about adding writing modes, anything else?
# [18:09] <dael> ??: I have some things about transitions that happened this week
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# [18:09] <dael> plinss: It went to CR, no one posted anything
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: I tweeted about ti fromt he account
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: Pub is done by Bert, nothing else for us except work on test suites
# [18:10] <dael> ...: But transitions are going
# [18:10] <dael> ...: Anything else to add?
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> s/??: I have/SimonSapin: I heard/
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: Bert, we were just talking about the transitions, do you need anything?
# [18:10] <dael> bert: No, everything is in process.
# [18:10] <dael> bert: I haven't started.
# [18:11] <dael> bert: It's not online yet, maybe tomorrow
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: Koji, you wanted to do writing modes
# [18:11] <dael> koji: Yes, I think fantasai and I think we're ready
# [18:11] * fantasai still wants to rename text-combine-horizontal, though
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: Ok. On obj to taking to CR?
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: fantasai you had a note on IRC, should that be at risk?
# [18:12] <fantasai> Webkit implements -epub-text-combine
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: No, we have to impl. webkit and epub
# [18:12] <fantasai> MSFT implements -ms-text-combine-horizontal
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: they're not compat and don't follow spec, but basic use-cases are compat
# [18:12] <dael> ...: Only concern is I don't like the name. -horizonal is confusing.
# [18:12] <dael> ...: Does glyph horozontal only apply in text.
# [18:13] <dael> ...: Horozontal only applys to horozontal text and that this applies to veritical too it's inconsistant
# [18:13] <dael> koji: So are you happy to go to CR now?
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I don't want to hold up the spec
# [18:13] <dael> ...: I'm just unhappy with that aspect.
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: Okay. Any objections?
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Anyone else have comments on that issue?
# [18:14] <dael> plinss: Suggestions for a better name?
# [18:14] <Bert> s/bert: I haven't started.//
# [18:14] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I think jdagget once suggested text combine upright
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: I have one other question
# [18:14] <dael> ...: Do you think the stuff on mixed directions is solid?
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Not as much as I would like.
# [18:15] <dael> ...: I think it's poorly expained and confusing and may be wrong in some cases
# [18:15] <dael> dbaron: I think I'm okay with that as long as we understand that impl will lead to changes.
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: That will be helpful
# [18:15] <dael> dbaron: And lead to another LC in CR
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I think that will happen, but I haven't gotten anyone to help review
# [18:15] <dael> dbaron: I think impl will help since implters will have to review
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I agree
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: Any notes in spec about that?
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: About unstable, no. I can add some
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure if we want to call it unstable as they won't impl. Maybe say we want feedback
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# [18:16] <dael> plinss: But that's the point of CR
# [18:16] <dael> dbaron: It might be good to have a not that we're particularly interested in feedback in that section
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: Any other comments?
# [18:16] <dbaron> s/not/note/
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: Anything else on text combine horizontal?
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: Apperently not
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: If no one cares, lets rename
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: to text combine upright? Fine with me. Any obj?
# [18:17] <dael> ...: I think it's better from what you said
# [18:18] <dael> RESOLVED: Changed text-combine-horizontal to text-combine-upright and take it to CR adding the note from dbaron
# [18:18] * Bert likes upright better, too.
# [18:18] <dael> Topic: Follow up on Selectors subject indicator
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: Let's try and resolve this.
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: I have the results written up..
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0441.html
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: So they were extremely clear in both ! and ^ comparision over 80% liked the combinator
# [18:18] <dael> ...: Most of the reasons were what we had given
# [18:19] <dael> ...: most common refrain is people prefered has because it was easier to nderstand
# [18:19] <dael> ...: They liked characters instead of askii
# [18:19] <dael> ...: I think it's clear we should switch to ::has psuedo-class
# [18:19] <dael> plinss: Any other thoughts?
# [18:19] <fantasai> s/characters/words/
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I can't obj to consistant survey results
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: We have over 1000 responces so it's good size
# [18:20] <dael> dbaron: One thought I had was thinking about how one would impl and one strategy that wouldn't work for has, but I don't know if it would work for anything.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: They should be equivallent
# [18:20] <dael> dbaron: Not the chain.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: Youcan do it with subject indicators
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: That's why we banned it originally
# [18:21] <fantasai> s/Not the chain/With :has you can have more than one downward chain/
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: To be clear, we're not exculding multiple has
# [18:21] <fantasai> s/originally/originally from :matches()/
# [18:21] <dael> tabatkins: I'd like to not. Theoretically there's not reason. This will be slow anyway so it will fall into complete, not fast.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Basic syntax, subject indicator doesn't allow branching of the slector, but :has does allow it.
# [18:22] <dael> ...; IN the first casse you'd have to allow :matchs, but for :has you have it from the beingning
# [18:22] <dael> dbaron: I think I'm okay.
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: I presume we want to excluse nested has?
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine either way
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure what it would mean
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: You're reevaluating based on it's children. Their usefullness is extremely niche
# [18:23] <dael> ...: I don't want restirctions, but I'm fine with exlusing if it's glitchy
# [18:23] <dael> ??: does matches exclude nesting?
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: It does, but we need to fix that. We were planning on revisiting based on last F2F discussion
# [18:23] <bkardell_> question was me
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: Thinking about nested has you can ignore the nested, but I'm not sure if that' relevent
# [18:24] * tantek is lurking on IRC
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: Any obj to adopting :has as subject selector?
# [18:24] <dael> RESOLVED: Use :has as subject selector
# [18:24] * Bert No strong objection, but I think '!A > B' looks better than 'A:has(> B)' though...
# [18:24] * tantek wonders how long that resolution will last this time ;)
# [18:24] * glazou is with Bert here but will not object
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: For alises you can remove psuedo-class and use has for impl
# [18:25] * fantasai too
# [18:25] * leaverou same here, agreed with Bert
# [18:25] <dael> Topic: Follow up on Shadow DOM
# [18:25] <dael> plinss: There's lots of talk on www-style. Let's see if we can get traction
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: We haven't made any major changes since F2F. We've shifted syntax of combinators from ascii to /shadow
# [18:26] <dael> ...: Based on fantasai suggestion, it's not /shadow/ so it's more a combinator and avoids odd whitespace rules
# [18:26] <dael> ...: 2 issues to resolve
# [18:26] <dael> ...: Original combinators are eq. of shadow-all
# [18:26] <dael> ...: I added/shadow which only selects childreno f shadow roots.
# [18:26] <dael> ...: They wanted shortest path that wasn't a definitive combinator.
# [18:27] <dael> ...: However, later there was an objection that using /shadow to select children make you more depentant on other elements, but shadow-all lets you be more knowledge-free
# [18:27] <dael> ...: He thought it would make more sense for the shortest and easiest thing to be less fragine.
# [18:27] <dael> ...: There's an author-concern about it being shorter and a useablility consern about the child selection
# [18:28] <dael> ... The pref consern isn't as strong. during matching it's cheap to move from arbitary element to it's host
# [18:28] <dael> ...: For matching purposes they're the same, but for updating purposes then the child variant does have an impact.
# [18:28] <dael> ...: I'm not sure how to fix this
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: Did Boris and Janis get a chance to respond?
# [18:29] <dbaron> s/Janis/Jonas/
# [18:29] <dbaron> s/respond/respond to Elliott's response/
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: ON a related note, you sent and e-mail about if we should use pseudo class or combintor syntax.
# [18:29] <bkardell_> so the concern is related to a change to an element in the parent document requires reevaluation?
# [18:29] <bkardell_> .foo /shadow/ .bar
# [18:29] <dael> ...: Based on an e-mail about this it seemed to be a psuedo-element is better then combinator so you don't have to select everything. You're in the tree and you don't have to have different for child vs decendant.
# [18:30] <dael> ...: It's just a straight-up selector
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: One aregument against that, we'll still have super-decendant
# [18:30] <dael> ...: Even if we change child vs decendant, we'll still have anothe combinator. It feels off to have both
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: One that pieces all if it's a psuedo element it would be strange you can use a child combinator and it would select decendants.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure what it means and I think at that point you're using psuedo-element as combinator
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: I think this is about my proposal. What I said was if you use pseudo-element to expose, it's a different model to expose.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: That's another question.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: What it means is shadow creates and access to one evel down and shadow-all is the combination of all shadow treess.
# [18:32] <dael> ...: So it's consistant to use psuedoelement for both
# [18:32] <dael> ...: And would be consistant with ::first-child if we allow selection inside
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: That works regardless of approach
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: But it's consistant
# [18:32] <dael> ...: My conclusion is it's better to use psuedo element
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: So there's combinator, psuedo-element to piece shadow tree or psuedo-element to expose inside
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I thinkt the 3 is seperate and dependant on webapps
# [18:33] <dael> ...: I don't htink we should encapsulate when JS does it.
# [18:34] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:34] <dael> ???: There was concessus in webaps to add a flag to allow opt-in/out
# [18:34] <dael> ...: Putting aside the default, I think in CSS we should design assuming the flag exists
# [18:34] <dael> ...: I think we need to use the falg
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: That's easier to resolve.
# [18:34] <plinss> s/???/hober/
# [18:35] <dael> ...: If they have the flag we should shut down completely. Then we do what plinss has proposed to expose sepecific things
# [18:35] <dael> hober: Right now you have /shadow/ etc. Suppose that was /customize/
# [18:35] <dael> ...: And if you wanted to expose the whole tree you could do that with shadow
# [18:35] <dael> ...: If there were particular things to expose you could do that.
# [18:35] <dael> ...: I think syntax should be the same for public and private
# [18:35] <bkardell_> dael: I think he said "slash custom ident" not "/customize/"
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd rather not consume the syntax for shadow DOM. We didn't want to swap syntax just for shadow. I wanted /foo/ to be how we do combinators
# [18:36] <dael> hober: So /ident/ is how you get at stuff
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: That's a viable way forward assuming we end up in that world
# [18:37] <dael> hober: I think we will be in that world. Let's assume the flag will be added. I think it could go either way, but flag is concencus
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We know what we would do if the flag exists and have plans, I think that's all we need to do
# [18:37] <dael> hober: Any way to add a note in spec that it may only select what's permitted
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We'll edit accordingly
# [18:38] <dael> hober: I'm just worried about resolving syntax before webapps makes a decision
# [18:38] <bkardell_> deal: "any way to add a note ..." was me
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: All our syntax plans have extensions for only exposing pieces.
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: So original conversation is psuedo vs combinators
# [18:38] <dael> ...: since we already have child vs decentant, we shouldn't reinvent?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: And there's no reason pseduo-element is inconsitant
# [18:39] <glazou> +1
# [18:39] <dael> ...: We don't need magic combinator and psuedo element lets you go into an alt tree.
# [18:39] <fantasai> s/inconsitant/inconsistent with how we use pseudo-elements elsewhere/
# [18:39] * sgalineau doesn't like confusing what :: means for authors
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: My only prob is pseudo matches nothing. It's a root of a pretend tree. It seems inellegant.
# [18:40] <dael> hober: Maybe nee new syntax for doc element where you can't apply property directly
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what combinator is trying, but it's got the inellegance of repetition
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Does shodow tree always have a root?
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
# [18:40] * sgalineau is the shadow root something you can set properties on?
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: It's it's rep. doc frag thing? One happens to be styleable and the other isn't
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: You mean first line?
# [18:40] * sgalineau it'd be awkward to be unable to set properties on E::shadow
# [18:40] <hober> s/doc element/DocumentFragment/
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Yes
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: The first line is odd, but you can style it. It's a thing
# [18:41] * smfr has to drop off
# [18:41] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:41] * tantek is going to wait for the w3cmemes summary of shadow dom related discussions.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: In context of CSS you can style. In another enviroment you can grab. In that case psuedo would rep. fragment
# [18:41] * leaverou doesn't like nested pseudo-elements with parameters. It will end up looking like lisp with all the parentheses.
# [18:41] <fantasai> s/grab/grab fragment things/
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> /shadow/ /shadow>/
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Idea: Rather than making named varients, what if we did what Tab is about to type
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> ::shadow>
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know if that look wierd
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: It does
# [18:42] <fantasai> ::shadow > foo
# [18:42] * astearns is in favor of syntax pronounced, "mbleah"
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Wierder then that?
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> /shadow >/
# [18:42] * sgalineau +1 to astearns
# [18:42] * hober /shadow-meh/
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: No wierder then that. It looks normal
# [18:42] * leaverou oh, ignore my earlier comment
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: This can also be taken to all combinators that are similar
# [18:42] <dael> ...: And you can do same with pseudo
# [18:42] * sgalineau let's have selectors like <shadow />...what could go wrong?
# [18:43] * tantek sgalineau++
# [18:43] <dael> ...: This lets you not create new names for ascii combinators without exposing wierd of non-existant pseudo element
# [18:43] * glazou sgalineau a proposal to change the meta-language above it?-)
# [18:43] * fantasai can't stop giggling at sgalineau's proposal
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: We're almost there.
# [18:43] * sgalineau (sorry)
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I'm pretty confident that pseudo is the right way to go
# [18:44] <dael> ...: I don't see any arguements on the other side. They're all against your previous ascii combinator
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: My main areguement is it doesn't rep. anything
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: Not in CSS. It could be some APi does elements or fragmenty things
# [18:44] <dael> hober: I think this is not jsut shadow DOM.
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/does/that returns either/
# [18:44] <dael> ...: They exist elsewhere and we should talk about it
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: That would be similar to adder where CSS doesn't care, but specialize do.
# [18:45] <fantasai> s/adder/attr/
# [18:45] <dael> ..: WE could have something that returns shadow root in JS
# [18:45] <fantasai> s/attr/::attr/
# [18:45] <dael> hober: You can picutre passing this to query selectors
# [18:45] <dael> hober: It's not a pseudo element, it's a psuedo fragment
# [18:45] <dael> ...: I like the syntax being ascii, but not ::
# [18:46] * sgalineau it's a pseudo-pseudo!
# [18:46] <dbaron> s/syntax being ascii/pseudo-element-like syntax/
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: I htink the point is to use pseudo element syntax b/c it's like one and acts like one in the context of selectors
# [18:46] <dael> ...: if we do regions, you can to ::region and select the things inside regions, then you want to do ::first line
# [18:46] <dael> ...: These are all structurally similar.
# [18:46] <fantasai> s/first line/first-line/
# [18:46] <dael> ...: It's not inconsistant with psuedo elements so we should use that
# [18:47] <fantasai> s/text combine horizonta/text-combine-horizontal/g
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to give this more thought to makes ure there's nothing I'm missing, but I think it sounds good
# [18:47] <dael> ...: Can we defur until next week?
# [18:47] <fantasai> s/horizontall/horizontal/g
# [18:47] <dael> hober: I'm also for not-resolving
# [18:47] <glazou> s/defur/defer
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: That's fine for me.
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Progress of a sort.
# [18:47] * sgalineau hober doesn't even water down resolutions anymore. just the water.
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I have a process q
# [18:48] <glazou> plh, Charter progress ?
# [18:48] <dael> ...: We resolved to take ? to CR, but in the few weeks since there's been a ton of feedback
# [18:48] <dael> ...: I've been replying as they come, but does that effect CR since there's changes between approval and now?
# [18:48] <plh> didn't receive all the internal comments yet. only comments are very minor and not worth mentioning here
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: You'll have to edit disp. of comments and get another resolution
# [18:48] <plh> should be done with this by next call
# [18:48] * tantek skims IRC for •sgalineau commentary to see what's really being discussed.
# [18:48] <plh> and the charter should go out next week
# [18:49] <glazou> plh, ok thanks
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll void the previous res. and treat this like a delayed LC
# [18:49] * hober sgalineau: don
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins Did you want to rename still available?
# [18:49] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-sizing/#width-height-keywords
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Small issue, I've intrduced several new words.
# [18:49] * Joins: liam (liam@public.cloak)
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I've introduced still-available which basically selects what's left at 100%
# [18:50] <dbaron> s/still/fill/
# [18:50] <dael> ...: Issue is we think this is a long name and call it fill
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: If no one obj we'll jsut do the quick rename
# [18:50] * dbaron tries to remember what the original name proposal was
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: We'll also looking for a new name for repudiate-float
# [18:50] <liam> dael, how often will i be used?
# [18:50] * dauwhe phont-phamily
# [18:50] * glazou floatisizers?
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: We're not finishing this with that in there.
# [18:50] * sgalineau repudiate-float is, like, TOTALLY AWESOME
# [18:50] <liam> s/ i / it /
# [18:50] <dael> ??: We want to renaim still available to fill
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: yes
# [18:51] <fantasai> s/still available/fill-available/
# [18:51] <dael> ??: We use fill elsewhere and there might be issues
# [18:51] * liam oops, forgot time difference, sorry
# [18:51] <bkardell_> font-weight: phat;
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: It's jsut a keyword and the ones you're talking about is graphical and this is geometry
# [18:51] * sgalineau float could use a its-not-you-its-me value
# [18:51] <dael> ...: I think context disabbiguates.
# [18:51] <fantasai> s/repudiate-float/repudiate-floats/g
# [18:51] * glazou sgalineau and after repudiate-float, you have lapidate-float ?
# [18:51] <krit_> s/??/krit/
# [18:51] <dael> krit: I think there's other with geometry
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: Anywhere we'd use shorthand?
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: No
# [18:52] <dael> ...: Don't they use a purpose with min/max?
# [18:52] <dael> krit: It increases size
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: This is still be as big as it should be, which is reasonably close
# [18:52] <dael> krit: I jsut want to make sure there's no conflicts with background
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: They won't collide gramtically
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: Do you want a resolution, or is this editorial?
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: We need a resolution
# [18:53] <dael> RESOLVED change fill-available to fill
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Sep. question for named-space.
# [18:53] <dael> ...: I've been making edits about attr selector and it turns out the grammer is worthless b/c doesn't allow wildcard subject
# [18:54] <dael> ...: The only place it's used is selectors and this part.
# [18:54] <dael> ...: How difficult is it for me to eddit the named spaces spec to make it more useful.
# [18:54] <dbaron> s/named-space/namespace spec/
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: What't hs issue?
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: When selected have a named space you can have a selector before or after the bar.
# [18:55] <dael> ...: However the named spaces spec doesn't allow wildcard. It requires ident after the bar
# [18:55] <dael> ...: So no where can use the named spac selector?
# [18:55] <liam> s/named space/namespace/
# [18:55] <dael> dbaron: Since when does it require wildcard names?
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: pseudo element allows wildcard
# [18:55] <dbaron> s/require wildcard names/allow * for the attribute name/
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: You need to compeletely redefine the name of grammer for pseudo elements
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: It doesn't include the ident aft erh named space.
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't include the * after the named space.
# [18:56] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/#css-qnames
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: If you lookat named space grammer, there's only an ident prefixed with named space or with ident.
# [18:56] <sgalineau> s/named space/namespace
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: I'm looking at it and I don't see the ident.
# [18:57] * glazou you mean the namespaces grammar plinss authored 16 years ago ?-)
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: Ah, you're looking at the ED
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: We never updated the TR version.
# [18:57] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-namespaces/
# [18:57] <dael> ...: I'm happy to add a windcard thing.
# [18:57] <fantasai> I guess we need to publish this :)
# [18:57] <dael> ...: I guess we need to pub.
# [18:57] <sgalineau> s/windcard/wildcard
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So what are we adding?
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: grammer for other spec to refer to
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: You're sure?
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: Positive.
# [18:58] * sgalineau repudiates namespaces
# [18:58] <dbaron> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/ (twice)
# [18:58] <fantasai> wqwname : wqname_prefix? [ ident | '*' ]
# [18:58] <plh> http://www.w3.org/Style/2011/REC-css3-namespace-20110929-errata.html notes it is empty
# [18:58] <dael> plinss: Let me backup, why are there differences?
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: I think we just never updated the TR.
# [18:58] <dael> plinss: Okay. The TR is wrong.
# [18:59] <plh> q+
# [18:59] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <dael> Action: fantasai update namedspaces and figure out what we need to put it on to TR
# [18:59] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:59] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-619 - Update namedspaces and figure out what we need to put it on to tr [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-02-26].
# [18:59] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: It has no performance implications to anyone anywhere
# [18:59] <fantasai> s/performance/conformance/
# [18:59] * sgalineau let's make sure the things no one uses are up to date, people
# [18:59] <dael> Bert: If I may, I think there's two parts and you'll need to publish again
# [18:59] <Bert> s/bert/plh/
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Yes, we'd need to pub a new edition.
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: So you'll update and come back?
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: Bert, did you pub the LC for backgrounds and borders?
# [19:00] <dael> bert: I don't remember, maybe not?
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: You pub the doc, I'm wondering about the announcement
# [19:00] <dael> bert: Probably not then.
# [19:00] <fantasai> Bert, would you like to do that or should I/
# [19:00] <fantasai> ?
# [19:01] <dael> bert: Should I or do you want to?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: I'm happy for you to do it
# [19:01] <dael> plinss: Is that it for the week?
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [19:01] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:01] <dael> ...: Sounds like it. Thanks everyone.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:01] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Plh
# [19:01] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [19:01] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:01] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [19:01] <Zakim> -glazou_
# [19:01] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:01] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Lea
# [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:01] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:01] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:01] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:01] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:02] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
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# [19:05] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You doing the Namespaces edits, or should I?
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> I can bikeshed it at the same time, woo!
# [19:05] <fantasai> um
# [19:06] <fantasai> I think it's fine...
# [19:06] * Quits: Andrey (~Andrey@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:07] * fantasai really doesn't want to deal with publishing a Bikeshed spec as PER
# [19:07] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> Issue is that I need some definitions marked up properly, and it's verbose to do so outside of Bikeshed.
# [19:07] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> And also I need to add some PER boilerplate, which I haven't had an excuse to do so far.
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# [19:08] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, SylvaIng, glazou_, dael, +1.917.207.aaaa, dauwhe, MaRakow, fantasai, krit, BrianKardell, SimonSapin, Stearns, rhauck, hober, koji, Plh, dbaron, TabAtkins,
# [19:08] <Zakim> ... [Bloomberg], smfr, Bert, Lea, [Microsoft]
# [19:08] <fantasai> I'm replying on Bert to handle publishing, so if it works for him, sure
# [19:09] <fantasai> But otherwise no, because editing a REC is enough annoyance
# [19:09] <fantasai> that I don't want to add wrestling with bikeshed to it
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# [19:10] <TabAtkins> You don't have to do a thing!
# [19:11] * fantasai is suspicious of these claims :P
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> Hehe
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# [20:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: the ED is at css-namespaces, but the TR is at css-namespace. Which shortname should we be using?
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> This might have been an accidental typo during the renaming.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins> No, it looks like we were aware of this. I guess we were just standardizing on pluralization during the Rename.
# [20:13] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [20:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: right. The /TR is css3-namespace
# [20:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: it is unrenamed :)
# [20:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I was just making sure the rename was intentional. kk
# [20:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, should I plan a trip to MV next week?
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> Sure, I'll be around. Let me check my calendar real quick.
# [20:17] * fantasai iirc, this week's out
# [20:18] <fantasai> I guess I should finish the Flexbox stuff on Thursday
# [20:18] <fantasai> er, tomorrow
# [20:18] * fantasai should focus on AB stuff today
# [20:18] * fantasai hasn't been paying any attention lately
# [20:19] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:21] <fantasai> oh, and, uh, finish the f2f minutes >_<
# [20:21] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:23] * plh-out is now known as plh
# [20:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, this week is out unless you wanna come by Friday.
# [20:24] <TabAtkins> I'm in vegas through tomorrow.
# [20:24] * fantasai nods
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# [20:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: so, next week?
# [20:50] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:55] <TabAtkins> I have an interview on Monday which ends at 11:15, right around when you arrive.
# [20:55] <TabAtkins> I'm free the rest of the week.
# [21:09] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:09] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [21:43] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [21:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I can't do Monday, but Tues or Thurs could work. Any preference?
# [21:45] <TabAtkins> tue
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 20 00:00:00 2014

The end :)