/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-02-26 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 26 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:22] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0752.html'
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# [17:22] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/26-css-irc
# [17:22] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:22] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
# [17:22] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:41] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah, agenda request if we have time - further discussion on the /shadow/ vs ::shadow topic.
# [17:42] <TabAtkins> Put Simon in front of me, though.
# [17:46] <glazou> noted TabAtkins
# [17:46] <glazou> and I think we have plenty of time, the agenda is a bit empty this week
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# [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:54] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:54] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P12
# [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P12 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:56] <Zakim> +krit
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# [17:57] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P7 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:58] <gregwhitworth> [Microsoft] is me
# [17:58] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [17:58] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [17:58] <Zakim> +Plh
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:58] <Zakim> +rhauck
# [17:58] <Zakim> +hober
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [17:58] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:58] * hober waves (muted on the bus)
# [17:58] <Zakim> +smfr
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# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaaa
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [17:59] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [17:59] <TabAtkins> zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [17:59] <TabAtkins> possible me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:00] <dael> glazou: Let's start
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# [18:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:00] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:00] <TabAtkins> I'll call back.
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:00] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
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# [18:00] <dael> ...: I noted one from Tab about showdow vs ::shadow?
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.860.479.aabb
# [18:00] <dael> glazou: We have a light agneda so may have time for me
# [18:00] <dael> Topic: CSS 2.1 ED
# [18:00] <dael> SimonSapin: So when working on impl for CSS2
# [18:01] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0139.html
# [18:01] <dael> ...: I would like it to be up to date including the errata items
# [18:01] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/css2/
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P36
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# [18:01] <dael> ...: It seems we have a ED but I'm not sure if it's really up to date
# [18:01] <dael> ...: If it's not, can we make it so?
# [18:01] <antonp> Zakim, P36 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, antonp, I do not recognize a party named 'P36'
# [18:01] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:01] <dael> ??: Bert?
# [18:02] <glazou> s/??/plh
# [18:02] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:02] <dael> SimonSapin: Is this a snapshot or up to datE?
# [18:02] <plh> s/??/plh/
# [18:02] <Bert> https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/
# [18:02] <antonp> Zakim, ??P36 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:02] <dael> bert: This is a snaptshop. The real version is aboev
# [18:02] <dael> ...: That's the ED and has been for 50 years or so
# [18:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:02] <bkardell_> lol
# [18:02] <bkardell_> wow... 50 years?!
# [18:02] <bkardell_> :)
# [18:02] <SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
# [18:02] <dael> SimonSapin: So that URL...I think it would be beneficial for a public WD just like other docs
# [18:02] <dael> SimonSapin: Listed on current work
# [18:03] <dael> bert: I don't think it's useful to have public
# [18:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:03] * sgalineau 'not useful' != 'harmful'
# [18:03] <dael> ???: We're charted as a public group so we should have everything public. Please move it
# [18:03] <dael> glazou: CSS errata is part of charter
# [18:03] <fantasai> s/???/ChrisL/
# [18:03] <ChrisL> s/???/ChrisL
# [18:03] <dael> bert: I don't like moving doc because we'd lose 15 years of history. If we do, I don't want to move to mercurial b/c it's a pain.
# [18:03] <plh> q+
# [18:03] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [18:04] * sgalineau we shouldn't keep documents non-public because of personal dislikes of the version control system
# [18:04] <dael> simonsapin: It's possible to import the history. We don't have to lose it.
# [18:04] <ChrisL> do we really have to argue about the desire to have a member-only draft for this thing?
# [18:04] <dael> plh: Why don't you move it to ?? instead of mercurial
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# [18:04] <dael> berT: I don't know if that's easier
# [18:04] <sgalineau> s/??/Github
# [18:04] * glazou "move it" sounds too much like a song and I think a meme is in sight...
# [18:04] * ChrisL thinks its personal dislike of Public access
# [18:04] <dael> plh: The community around it is much larger. The this is mercurial doesn't have as many cycles.
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Our mercurial is mirrored.
# [18:04] <dael> plh: Ok. that could work
# [18:05] * tantek is lurking for this one
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: I think all our drafts should be in same repository so it makes easier to help...I don't think we should have one this in github
# [18:05] <dael> bert: I think github is easier, but I don't want to move everything
# [18:05] * ChrisL tantek, why lurk? You have a well known position on public access.
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: To put CSS 2.1 on mercurial we have to import the history
# [18:05] * sgalineau <meme>lurking tantek is lurking</meme>
# [18:05] <glazou> s/glazou/florian
# [18:06] <fantasai> s/one this/just this one/
# [18:06] * tantek ChrisL because it seems the public access voices are loud enough without me ;)
# [18:06] <dael> ???: So the proposal is to import into mercurial, even though we don't love mercurial. And maybe we should later consider moving elsewhere.
# [18:06] <fantasai> florian^: I prefer git as well, but also think having everything in one place is more important
# [18:06] <florian> s/???/florian/
# [18:06] * ChrisL hoped to be loud enough, because this member-only nostalgia is tiresome
# [18:06] <fantasai> s/easier to help/easier for editors to help each other/
# [18:06] * tantek is next waiting for this conversation to repeat in 1-2 years and have a majority opinion shift to using git(hub).
# [18:07] <florian> ChrisL: you were quite clear as far as I am concerned
# [18:07] <glazou> tantek, until someone asks to add an email client, per jwz law
# [18:07] * fantasai is pretty sure the majority opinion will not be to have one draft in one system and others in a different system, even 1-2 years from now
# [18:07] <SimonSapin> If it helps, I can do the work of importing the change history from the CSV repository (given access)
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> zakim, who's noisy?
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: So Bert is it okay with you if SimonSapin helps you?
# [18:07] * Rossen_ Simon we can't hear you but as of now you're winning
# [18:07] <Zakim> TabAtkins, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (28%), [IPcaller] (4%), fantasai (4%), Bert (61%), TabAtkins (19%)
# [18:07] <bkardell_> :)
# [18:07] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:07] * Zakim sees on the phone: dael, glazou, dauwhe, krit, MaRakow, Stearns, SimonSapin, Plh, [IPcaller], rhauck, hober, dbaron, fantasai, plinss, smfr, [Microsoft.a], BrianKardell, Bert,
# [18:08] * Zakim ... SylvaIng, +1.860.479.aabb, antonp, TabAtkins, koji, ??P4
# [18:08] * Zakim [IPcaller] has florian
# [18:08] <fantasai> Zakim, mute TabAtkins
# [18:08] <Zakim> TabAtkins should now be muted
# [18:08] <dael> ...: It seems like it's concensous fromt he WG
# [18:08] <dael> bert: If someone can make a respoitory on mercurial, I don't know how to do that.
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> Man, am I still the problem? I switched phones!
# [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, unmute TabAtkins
# [18:08] <Zakim> TabAtkins should no longer be muted
# [18:08] <dael> bert: only get errors when I use that one, I have a different one for this draft.
# [18:08] <dael> ???: I have no idea how that happens.
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: I never get an error.
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# [18:09] * hober maybe bert should get a fresh checkout of the hg repo
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Wait...switching isn't the discussion. The question is moving to or from repo.
# [18:09] <SimonSapin> Another thing is the build system for this document
# [18:09] <fantasai> s/moving/moving the CSS2.1 document/
# [18:09] * krit_ hober every single time he is pushing!
# [18:09] <dael> ??: I was agreeing. Mercurial might be great, but it's what we've got
# [18:09] <florian> s/??/florian
# [18:09] * sgalineau now has a mental image of Bert working on an old terminal with banks of tapes spinning in the background
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: Bert, I'm sorry, but it's mercurial and SimonSapin will help.
# [18:10] <dael> ...: so it's an action on SimonSapin to help with hints from bert
# [18:10] <florian> s/might be great/might not be everybody's favorite/
# [18:10] <dael> bert: I don't like losing history...the link will be gone.
# [18:10] <dael> bert: it's member only so we can't put the history in the public. We're not going to look through for confidential stuff
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> The plan is to import *only* CSS2
# [18:11] <SimonSapin> no anything else that might be in the same repo
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> zakim, who is noisy
# [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', TabAtkins
# [18:11] <hober> Zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:11] <Zakim> hober, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: SimonSapin (30%), glazou (9%), krit (4%), fantasai (4%)
# [18:11] <Zakim> TabAtkins, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (15%), glazou (81%), krit (4%), fantasai (4%)
# [18:11] <plh> q+
# [18:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: ChrisL is there problem making things in the cvs go public?
# [18:11] * TabAtkins zakim, unmute tabatkins
# [18:11] * Zakim TabAtkins was not muted, TabAtkins
# [18:12] <dael> ChrisL: technically yes, but in practice the comment history...the only point that might be unknown is since css 2.1 was published.
# [18:12] <SimonSapin> It’s also possible to truncate the import at some date
# [18:12] <dael> ...: So in practice I don't see anything memebr only. It will be why changes were made. I can't think of anything that might be hard.
# [18:12] <dael> ...: Bert thinks there might. We either copy with our without comments. Either way it's public so people can look
# [18:13] <dael> plh: We don't know what's in that history. Some companies might have something int he reposity. I know what dev comments can be.
# [18:13] * krit_ 2 weeks for reviewing a 50 years history?
# [18:13] <dael> ...:aybe allow people to look that are on members only. Let them say if they have concerns. If we don't hear anything we publish
# [18:13] <dael> ...: That would help.
# [18:13] <ChrisL> sounds like a good plan
# [18:13] * sgalineau krit that'd be *15*
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: It's unfortunate to wait, but it's a good comprimise. I don't want ACs to fall because this decision
# [18:13] * krit_ ;)
# [18:13] <dael> plh: In two weeks people can speak up.
# [18:13] <dael> glazou: I hope it can be 1 week
# [18:14] * fantasai the CSS2.1 commit logs are long but boring
# [18:14] * ChrisL the hidden history of css since 1964, lol
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen: Are you expecting something?
# [18:14] * ed votes for rewriting all checkin messages to "YOLO"
# [18:14] * ChrisL grep for "sucks" or "stupid"
# [18:14] * krit_ ed++
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: In theory everyone should look for contriversial or problematic that needs to hide. If everyone doesn't have a problem that's fine, but we have former members.
# [18:14] <dael> ...: I know it sounds stupid, but b/c the way we used to work we need to do this.
# [18:14] <dael> ...: If we want the whole history.
# [18:15] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:15] <dael> ???: I'd suggest 2 weeks. It's lots of history.
# [18:15] <tantek> is there an open format for change histories / commit logs? a little export/import action?
# [18:15] <florian> s/???/florian/
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: I'd like to close this. Is everyone okay with plh's idea.
# [18:15] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: Bert, can you download the comments and send it to the private mailing list for everyone to review?
# [18:15] <dael> bert: You want me to download allt he comments?
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: In a CVS
# [18:16] <dael> plh: I'm willing to take an action item to do it
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: You may want to deal witht he former members.
# [18:16] <dael> plh: Let's do it proper.
# [18:16] <SimonSapin> q+ about the build system
# [18:16] * Zakim SimonSapin, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:16] <dael> glazou: Let's do it in two weeks. If we don't hear anything in two weeks, we bring all the comments over.
# [18:16] * sgalineau tantek, that just seems contrived
# [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: As I understand, the form for CSS 2.1...all the preveious itterations are a part of it. I don't know what we want to move here.
# [18:17] <dael> bert: The build is profiles written by Arnold and ??? and me. I don't know what's in the history of those.
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# [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: Do we need to understand how it works, or just copy over as is?
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: In short, is the sourse format compat with new system.
# [18:17] <fantasai> Simon was saying that the build system for CSS2.1 is a different system than the ones we use for the CSS3 drafts, and he's not sure what's involved for moving it
# [18:18] * sgalineau once again, Bert with spinning tapes in the background
# [18:18] <dael> bert: No. The way we did it back then was complex. Same things, different ways.
# [18:18] <dael> bert: It's in the same directories, everything is there.
# [18:18] <Zakim> - +1.860.479.aabb
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: We have two weeks. SimonSapin will you take that time to look in CVS director and see what you can do?
# [18:18] * TabAtkins Bikeshed doesn't do multi-page documents yet, anyway. ^_^
# [18:18] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: Ok.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: So, rpoposed recolution. plh will do the log over the next two weeks. If no obj SimonSapin will move CVS to mercurial. Ok?
# [18:19] <dael> RESOLVED: see above
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# [18:19] <dael> glazou: One more thing. There's discussion on charter milestones. Charles proposed a change that wasn't in line with WG opinion.
# [18:20] <dael> ...: I rejected it because I didn't think it was right. I'll ask you to write something to replace his prose
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# [18:20] <dael> ??: Do you have a link?
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: I'll see. It may be private.
# [18:20] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0517.html
# [18:20] <dael> Topic: MQ3 errata
# [18:20] <dael> florian: We've discussed and resolved to make these changes, but no one has done it.
# [18:21] <ChrisL> waybe editor of MQ4 can do it?
# [18:21] <dael> ...: Can we action someone to make the changes? There's not much to discuss.
# [18:21] <dael> florian: I'm the editor in MQ4, but I don't have access to MQ3.
# [18:21] <dael> s/MQ3/MQ3 errata
# [18:21] <dael> bert: I think ChrisL has made some, I may have too
# [18:22] <dael> ChrisL: If it's just publishing, tell me where and I'll make sure it gets done.
# [18:22] <dael> florian: That should be the link that was pasted above in IRC.
# [18:22] <dael> ...: I can clarify any questions
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: Is that okay?
# [18:22] <dael> ChrisL: Yes. I see the link from glazou? That one?
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [18:22] <dael> florian: And if anything isn't clear, jsut tell me
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# [18:22] <dael> Topic: Font Loading LC
# [18:23] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0162.html
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: You remember from Paris it was nearly done. It got feedback from jdagget
# [18:23] <dael> ...: I forgot to pub the FPWD until last week. Still I think it's mature and has been reviewed.
# [18:23] <sgalineau> which other implementors have reviewed it?
# [18:23] <dael> ...: I think it's stable and ready, go to LC, gather remaining feedback and do the edits.
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# [18:24] <dael> ChrisL: So this is fairly brief, but this was previously CSS3 fonts, right?
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't recall
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: It was, yes, although it was brief
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: That was the old form, but yes.
# [18:24] <dael> ChrisL: If you think it's stable, put it forward,a nd and people disagree they'll let you know
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: We do LC when we're done with design and we're done with design
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: On the website there's two issues in the doc. Shouldn't they resoved b4 last call?
# [18:25] <dael> ChrisL: Yes.
# [18:25] * fantasai wants sgalineau's question answer
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: I can go resolve today
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: One is technical so we need time to review
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Let me pull them up quick
# [18:25] <dael> florian: Is it something we can discuss without prep?
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins 2 issues. One is what the font-face does for works. I'ts basically done and just needs text
# [18:26] <dael> ...: 2nd is about local fonts. I think it's easy and can be resolved. I just need to ignore them. The issue is do we need a special feature and I think we don't and we just drop it.
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: Has John Dagget done a really complete review like typo style?
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Did other people? Did they find anything?
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
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# [18:27] <dael> ???: We looked at it but not that much depth.
# [18:27] <dael> ...: I'm passing it on for more.
# [18:27] <florian> s/???/rosen/
# [18:27] <dael> s/???/rosssen
# [18:27] <dael> glazou: So do you need more time?
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen_: Let's get a week
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: Let's defer for a week so there's a bit mroe review and TabAtkins can edit.
# [18:28] <dael> Topic: CSS Masking
# [18:28] <dael> krit_: There was a new WD pub two weeks ago. That was for more feedback.
# [18:28] <dael> ..: I'd like to remind people to look before we go to LC so we find as many issues as poss.
# [18:29] <dael> ...: fantasai had some issues from first LC and I think I resolved them, but it would be great if she could look again
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: Thanks for the reminder.
# [18:29] <dael> Topic: ShadowDOM
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: I've been talking over fantasai suggestion from last week about switching to pseudo elements
# [18:29] <dael> ...: Mostly okay. For shadow and content it works.
# [18:29] * ChrisL who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Only the shadowdom knows
# [18:30] <dael> ...: Only one with shadow-z??? because it doesn't corrispond to anything real.
# [18:30] <dael> ...: fantasai explained it as switching to a vertural tree, but that is weird
# [18:30] <dael> ...: It wouldn't match anything is CSS. Potentially queries could returnt he shadow roots.
# [18:31] <dael> ...: We're uncomfortable with makeing that as pseudo. We want that as combinator
# [18:31] <ChrisL> s/z???/deep
# [18:31] <dael> ...: Then it seems odd for them to be sometimes pseudo, sometimes combeinators.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: I'm not convinced shadow deep needs to be a combinator because there could be something in the DOM. It's a thing you can talk about and define as existing
# [18:32] <dael> ...: That our DOM isn't structured shouldn't change the CSS syntax
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: But we'll never have a DOM thing for that
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: But it exists as a concept. So our syntax shouldn't be restricted. We should chose from conceptual consistancy
# [18:32] <dael> ???: The showdow root looks okay, but shadow deep root doesn't make sense as a thing to talk about instead of nesting roots
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: We talk about the compsed tree, not something rooted at a psot. So shadow deep doesn't exist.
# [18:33] * hober maybe we should drop the shadow-deep concept then :)
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: What's you're doing is a sub tree of the tree
# [18:33] <dael> ???: It's a tree, though, real or conceptual.
# [18:33] * sgalineau wonders if his grandmother's niece has a shadow
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: If you're talking about foo, it's great neice may have a shadow, but you wouldn't reach it
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: My problem is this may let us define everything as a pseudo instead of combinator
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: I don't think so
# [18:34] * glazou sgalineau I would worry if she has a DOM
# [18:34] <bkardell_> maybe if you end a selector with a bang(!) it means you really mean it and it crosses all boundaries
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: The reference combinator could be seen as something hanging off in an alt tree.
# [18:34] * glazou hober do NOT tempt me...
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: No. There's a connection, but no one is making a diff tree for the child
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: There's no child/parent there. It's just a link
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: But that's all parent child is. It's just a link
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: That's too abstract.
# [18:35] * tantek hober is tempting glazou? /me grabs popcorn.
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: I think your is too
# [18:35] <dael> ???: psuedo is supposed to select the who tree. a pseudo element, not the whole tree
# [18:35] <glazou> tantek, get us two beers instead so we can watch the fight
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# [18:35] <dael> ...: So we can define it as the root instead of the whole tree. I thinkt he concept is a bit off
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Youc an map it to whatever element is hanging off
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: The tree isn't exposed. It won't be in any way
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: It's the first element
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: We plan to expose it more
# [18:36] <fantasai> s/It's the first element/neither is ::first-line/
# [18:36] * glazou will listen to "a forest" by The Cure after the call...
# [18:36] <dael> ??: Is there any reason you'd need to piece some. Or do you intend to piece everything?
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: If you only want to grab foo-button that's a decentant of some thing.
# [18:37] <glazou> s/??/bkardell
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# [18:37] * sgalineau OMG bkardell is on the phone
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# [18:37] <glazou> he is often on the phone
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we should be more judicious to what we expose as pseudo since it could be returned as java
# [18:37] <dael> ...: that seems to be a reasonable rule
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/since it/to things that/
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/java/javascript/
# [18:37] <bkardell_> sgalineau: lol, bkardell has spoken the last three confs :-p usually attributed to hober
# [18:38] <dael> ...: attr have that. Some representation of the dom. Shadow, roots, work that way
# [18:38] <dael> ...: I don't think an element in the tree can be exposed usefully
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# [18:38] <dael> ...: I don't htink it's an ultimate node in a tree. and that's a pseudo element.
# [18:38] * sgalineau mind == blown
# [18:38] * astearns OMG bkardell speaks of himself in the third person!
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: So...what do we do now?
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Before we knife fight, any other opinions?
# [18:39] * sgalineau we should lock a few people in a room....and throw away the keys
# [18:39] <dael> bkardell_: Are you planning on getting together for this?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:39] <glazou> s/bkardell/rossen
# [18:39] <dael> rossen: I think we'd be interested in being there too.
# [18:39] * sgalineau #florian { preference: mild; }
# [18:39] <dael> ??: think the conceptual is a bit off.
# [18:40] <glazou> s/??/florian
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: I'm worried that things like regions would be off from shadow dom
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: well and who knows what pages will use
# [18:40] <fantasai> s/dom/dom for esoteric reasons we discuss here/
# [18:40] <dael> florian: I'd rather have actual consistancy then with things that are psuedo elements.
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: Will you report to ML about the meeting?
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Was that the last thing?
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [18:41] * sgalineau needs a counter style to keep track of counter-styles mail
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I have a q. There's been a lot of counter styles.
# [18:41] <florian> s/then with things that are/than theoretical explanations about what should be/
# [18:41] <dael> ...: WE've been unable to agree and I'm going to have to regect in in DoC. Do we need a resolution for that?
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:42] <fantasai> s/regct/reject/
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: The Counter sytles draft has a number of ways for one to refer to another. that means there's a poss of loops
# [18:42] <fantasai> s/Yes./Yes. Anything resulting in a significant change ro significant rejection should be discussed./
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# [18:42] <dael> ...: The 3 places you can loop is counter style fallback, the speakout value, and in the override.
# [18:42] <dael> ...: The override is the one under q
# [18:43] <dael> ...: having a cycle isn't an error. it's useful to have counter styles that fall to eachother for diff values.
# [18:43] <dael> ...: speakout doesn't do that. If there's an error it defaults.
# [18:43] <dael> ...: There aren't any use cases for cycle to be useful and I think it should creat an error.
# [18:44] * smfr has to drop off, sorry
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# [18:44] <dael> ...: ?? Has said that there shouldn't be cycles and they could be needed. Only if a given descriotor goes intoa loop should we create a default
# [18:44] <glazou> np smfr
# [18:44] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:44] * fantasai link to discussion?
# [18:44] <dael> ...: ONly time that's useful is when creating a compression. It seems like a silly trick and nota reasonable use case.
# [18:44] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0523.html
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: ?? Main arguement against my position is that it req cycle checking hich is an abstract issue, but we already require it for fallback loops.
# [18:45] <dael> ...: So it doesn't seem an undo amount of work.
# [18:45] * fantasai defers to dbaron on this one?
# [18:45] <dael> glazou: I guess you've explained well. TabAtkins recommends to reject comments.
# [18:45] <dbaron> I'm here; I don't really have an opinion since I don't have a good sense of what override is used for.
# [18:45] <dael> SimonSapin: It's without a use case so we should pick the simplier.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: I think they're both equally complex. It's a matter of if you look at scriptor at use time or late. I think they're equivallent.
# [18:46] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0729.html
# [18:46] <dael> florian: In that case, why do you prefer yours?
# [18:46] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/??/
# [18:46] * fantasai suspects that was florian
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Generally we treat things known to be errors as something to kill instead of something to repair.
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: dbaron you there? fantasai wanted your feedback
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: I don't have a good sense of what override is used for so no opinion
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: It's for when a counter style is alsmot right and you just want to tweek a little.
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# [18:47] <Zakim> +??P20
# [18:47] <tantek> Zakim, ??P20 is tantek
# [18:47] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:47] <dael> dbaron: are you req. cycle detection in one descriptor, or multile?
# [18:48] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:48] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: currently req is speakout. The override is within themselves. If there's a cycle detected we switch to override decimal
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: What if you want to know what it's spoken as. b overrides a and a has a speakout to b
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: so B has a speakout to a and a is overriding b.
# [18:49] <fantasai> Maybe override isn't a very good name? It's not actually overriding the named style, just creating a new one based off it afaict.......
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: That should be fine. There's no odd cycle there. The missing discriptor takes on the default and it'll speak as.
# [18:49] <dael> dbaron: a overrides b
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: so A will say I'm missing the speakout. It'll grab from be. so a will have speakout a as well
# [18:49] <dbaron> s/speakout/speak-as/g
# [18:50] <dael> ...: So you looka t speak as as auto. So b looks at it and says I'm auto as well.
# [18:50] <dael> dbaron: Okay.
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I made sure the things the refer to each other are at different levels so you can process in order and have it work
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: After that, what do people think? Should we reject the comment?
# [18:50] <dael> ??: To clarify, what you're proposing to reject is the override
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. his proposal is to let cycles happen. If a loop happens, default that one decriptor, but let the rest take the value from there.
# [18:51] <dael> ??: Your position makes sense.
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: The proposal makes more sense, but I'ld liket o be consistant. If the author defines and it works 99% of the time, the 1&% seems a surprise.
# [18:52] <glazou> s/??/plinss
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# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: If the counter sytles create a problem, we take care of that. The other is if descriptors create a look you get odd results.
# [18:52] <dael> dbaron: I think plinss is talking about fallback.
# [18:53] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: There's no problem with fallback cycles. It renders as decimals if you literally cannot render in another form.
# [18:53] <dael> ...: I think it's resonable to recover there so you don't negate the entire thing
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: I'd rather things only fail when they need to and have everything be consistant.
# [18:53] <dael> ...: But I don't want to complicate everything
# [18:54] <dael> plh: The proposals don't change when, but how.
# [18:54] <dael> ...: The loop will be detected in both. Do we invalidate everything in loop, or only some.
# [18:54] <dael> ...: Either way we detect the loop.
# [18:54] <plh> s/plh/Florian/
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: That's correct.
# [18:54] <dael> florian: Do we keep the thing that could be resolver despite the loop
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: I recommend that b/c it's going to be an error, kill the overrides entirely.
# [18:55] <florian> +1
# [18:55] <dael> Rossen_: I support TabAtkins that sounds most sane.
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: Me too.
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: We have 1 minute left.
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: A resolution would be useful. Can we live with TabAtkins proposal?
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: works for me
# [18:55] <ChrisL> works for me too
# [18:55] <dael> florian: Ok
# [18:55] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay either way
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins said failing early makes the mistake more obvous which is another benefit
# [18:56] * SimonSapin fail early, fail often
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: proposal: accept TabAtkins's proposal and reject the comment
# [18:56] <dael> RESOLVED: accept TabAtkins proposal and reject the comment
# [18:56] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [18:56] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [18:56] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:56] <tantek> Zakim, unmute tantek
# [18:56] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:56] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:56] <Zakim> -??P4
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: I think that's it. Thank you everyone.
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:57] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [18:57] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:57] <Zakim> -koji
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:57] <Zakim> -tantek
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# [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
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# [18:58] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:58] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:58] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:58] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:58] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Plh
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# [18:58] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:58] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, dauwhe, krit, MaRakow, Stearns, SimonSapin, Plh, rhauck, hober, dbaron, florian, fantasai, plinss, smfr, +1.281.305.aaaa, BrianKardell, TabAtkins,
# [18:58] <Zakim> ... Bert, Rossen_, [Microsoft], SylvaIng, +1.860.479.aabb, koji, antonp, Lea, tantek
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# [21:59] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:59] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [22:01] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
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# [22:29] <plh> nothing like 5 lines of javascript to scrap stuffs out of cvs logs :)
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# [22:59] <liam> naah, one line of perl! :)
# [23:00] <liam> you can do anything in one line of perl. except understand how it works :)
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)