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# Session Start: Wed Mar 05 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [01:27] <dholbert> TabAtkins / SimonSapin, strawman suggestion: for cases where <custom-ident> is now going to be unrestricted (per discussion earlier & SimonSapin's www-style post due to nesting or whatever), do we instead perhaps just want to use <ident>, since it's functionally equivalent?
# [01:28] <TabAtkins> dholbert: Nah, because we want to stay safe against things becoming restricted later.
# [01:28] <TabAtkins> There's also cases like properties where it's unrestricted within a longhand, but restricted in the shorthand, and that's a subtle case to catch.
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> Better to be conservative and just use <custom-ident> everywhere.
# [01:29] <dholbert> OK
# [01:29] <dholbert> sounds good, thanks
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# [17:51] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0079.html'
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# [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:52] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
# [17:52] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:07] <dael> ...: Any additions?
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: Multiple Mask Layers and mask-composite
# [18:08] <dael> krit: In the past we had multi layers for mask as we do for background
# [18:08] <dael> ...: We couldn't agree how to compoite/combine them
# [18:08] <dael> ...: I sent a prop. to add a new prop. mask-composite
# [18:08] <dael> ...: This allows to def. different compositing operators.
# [18:09] <dael> ..: Each effects current and one below, similar to background
# [18:09] <krit> http://dirkschulze.github.io/specs/css-masking-1/#the-mask-composite
# [18:09] <dael> ...: I created a draft, but haven't pub b/c I would like to hear from WG
# [18:09] <dael> ...: Webkit and blink already impl prefixed and there's some examples out there.
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# [18:09] <dael> ...: My keywords are the same as HTML and composite operator prop.
# [18:10] <dael> ...: I think it's a good way to combine different layers.
# [18:10] <dael> ???: You said old Webkit had this function?
# [18:10] <dael> ...: I don't remember that
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# [18:10] <plinss> s/???/smfr/
# [18:10] <dael> krit: Mask-compisute was impl as I speced this
# [18:10] <dael> ...: I jsut added two more that are in webkit to be more similar to HTML. HAs the same 13, or it will have.
# [18:11] <dael> krit: Does anyone have concerns adding this to masking lvl 1?
# [18:11] <Zakim> +BradK
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# [18:11] <dael> smfr: To specific concerns. I'm worried we're doing this before bordered. I think we could get in trouble with applying things to composite operator
# [18:11] <dael> ...: This is adding comp. operator to masking and we have one to backgrounds.
# [18:12] <dael> krit: We don't have right now. There's a difference between compositing and blend. We jsut have bled for background
# [18:12] <dael> smfr: I'm just surprised this is getting hired priority then other things.
# [18:12] <dael> krit: I'd like to have this in other places, but this isn't the topic for right now.
# [18:12] <dael> ???: Why are we putting this in lvl 1?
# [18:12] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:12] <dael> krit: Without this we can't define different masking layers.
# [18:12] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:13] <dael> ...: It makes sense to support this spec and impl wise.
# [18:13] <dael> ...: We see it in webkit already. It makes a lot of sense to have it.
# [18:13] <dael> ???: So it's basically a nice feature, but we don't have data to make a stronger statement then that.
# [18:13] <dael> krit: You mean it's nice to have multi. layers or jsut compositing?
# [18:13] <plinss> s/???/rossen/
# [18:14] <dael> rossen: I'm just trying to find out why we're adding it back in. I don't have anotehr agenda.
# [18:14] <dael> krit: I think it makes sense to align with background. I got comments to my personal e-mail to support multi layers.
# [18:14] <dael> ...: It jsut makes sense since background supports and there's lots of similarity
# [18:15] <dael> rossen: Is it worth persuing alignment
# [18:15] <dael> krit: I think that's helpful to the author to have it similar.
# [18:15] <dael> rossen: Is there reason to support the similarity between background and masking?
# [18:15] <dael> krit: it's nice.
# [18:15] <dael> rossen: I'd rather have one concept for two features, not similar for two.
# [18:16] <dael> krit: The thing to do would be to support compositing on background. I'd like to have that conversation, but I think that's seperate from masking
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# [18:16] <dael> rossen: If we can get to a solution with one concept for both features, I think it's worth having the discussion.
# [18:16] <dael> ...: Otherwise, we're just making a masking-only decision and ignoring the compat.
# [18:16] <dael> krit: I'm fine to have that discussion, but I think maybe on ML first.
# [18:17] <dael> krit: Or should we do it on the call?
# [18:17] <dael> rossen: Yeah, ML first would be great
# [18:17] <dael> krit: That's fine.
# [18:17] <dael> rossen: Thanks.
# [18:17] <BradK> I think for level one, lower layers should just mask upper layers, without any special keywords.
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: One question. Purpose of multi-image is to composite to one layer for one element.
# [18:17] <dael> krit: Yes. You combine all mask layers to one and then apply.
# [18:18] * fantasai bradk, mention that on the call?
# [18:18] <dael> rossen: It's a type of flattening, right? A similar concept applies to 3D masking too?
# [18:18] <dael> krit: I'll bring this back to the ML and we'll add background and borders as part of the discussion.
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: To clairfy, primary usecase is complex mask using simplier images.
# [18:18] <dael> krit: yes.
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: OK. We'll take this to ML.
# [18:19] <dael> plinss: ANything else?
# [18:19] <dael> krit: no
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: CSS Shapes to CR
# [18:19] <dael> astearns: When I made the req. there was one LC comment, but in last hour we had comments from howcome.
# [18:19] <BradK> fantasai: Sorry, I'm in and out. I just wanted to stick the comment in there, and it can be discussed on the mailing list.
# [18:19] <Zakim> - +1.425.463.aaaa
# [18:19] <dael> ...: WE can take some time on call to discuss and decide how to address if that's okay
# [18:19] <dael> group: Yes.
# [18:20] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0103.html
# [18:20] <dael> astearns: First is at (url from astearns)
# [18:20] <dael> ...: It's questioning if basic shapes should be defined in CSS
# [18:20] <dael> ...: He said shape in HTML should be defined there. I disagree. WE define the basic shape function as a way to define how the shape displays and how it interacts with layouts
# [18:21] <dael> ...: I don't know if I should say this comment is out of scope or rejected, but I don't think we should make a change.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I agree.
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: I do too.
# [18:21] <dael> rossen: I would vote to reject.
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: The shape is the presentation. I say reject
# [18:21] <dael> astearns: can we get a resolution?
# [18:21] <dael> RESOLVED: Reject the 1st comment.
# [18:22] <dael> astearns: 2nd is about empty div
# [18:22] <dael> ...: My sug. was to use before and after pseudo, but the after doesn't have the right positioning.
# [18:22] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:22] <dael> astearns: I think we can change ex without empty divs without having to exit LC
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I agree
# [18:22] <dael> rossen: Or you can putt he shape inside the div and call it a day.
# [18:23] <dael> astearns: What I was thinking was the ex illistration shows a triangle with isn't in markup or CSS.
# [18:23] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:23] <dael> ...: It's contrived already and I'm going to to find a simple left/right mirror with triangular characteristic to make it a better ex.
# [18:23] <dael> astearns: That was just informational. I don't need a res on that
# [18:23] <dwim> Zakim: [IPcaller] is me
# [18:24] <dael> ...: Last one is about using luminants of an image to def a shape.
# [18:24] <dael> ...: It's a fine thing to add, I've been arguing we should defer to level 2.
# [18:24] <dael> ...: Does anyone think it has to be def. now?
# [18:24] <sylvaing_> zakim, who is noisy
# [18:24] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', sylvaing_
# [18:24] <sylvaing_> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:24] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:24] <Zakim> sylvaing_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: smfr (30%), Stearns (54%), fantasai (24%)
# [18:24] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: abinader (9%), smfr (66%), Stearns (4%)
# [18:25] <dael> SimonSapin: That sounds similar to luminants for masking and I'm wondering if there should be a more generic way to say this is good for masking and shapes
# [18:25] <sylvaing_> s/SimonSapin/smfr
# [18:25] <dael> astearns: At the moment masking has a luminant switch, right?
# [18:25] <dael> krit: Yes.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: It's a sep property. Perhaps it's a sep. image instead
# [18:25] <dael> astearns: I was thinking a keyword to use luminants from the image instead of alpha-mask
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Maybe in the image special prop?
# [18:26] <BradK> s/luminants/luminance?
# [18:26] <dael> astearns: That's true. Or perhaps the image function itself could have an alpha or luminatn switch
# [18:26] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:26] <fantasai> s/image special prop/shape-image-threshold/
# [18:26] <dael> ...: But then when you use it it will display a luminance mask?
# [18:26] <dael> astearns: In any case, I'd still like to defer this. I'd like to impl and iterate without waiting for the perfect solution.
# [18:26] <dael> ...: I think we can add this later.
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: I like the idea of diff image functions.
# [18:27] <dael> ...: That way you can do something like set the shape based on level of red
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Then you wouldn't use an image function.
# [18:27] <dael> astearns: Unless you decide what pixals you're pulling out.
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Unless you use something in background??
# [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: An image function has to return an image, that you can use in background-image
# [18:28] <dael> ???: Then that's defined in images and this is defered?
# [18:28] <dael> astearns: One thing that's useful is you can take an image and display the different levels differently which would allow more interesting applications
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: We're building a primative so we can use it anywhere. So it doesn't belong per-say here.
# [18:29] <fantasai> s/per-say/per-se/
# [18:29] <dael> ...: That said there might be use in being able to switch between alpha and luminance, but I think we can get there when we get there.
# [18:29] <dael> ...: Other thoughts?
# [18:29] <dael> ...: So the prop is defer that for a future level?
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: I think it's interesting that masking has it and shapes doesn't
# [18:29] <dael> ...: We prob. want to use the same approach for both
# [18:29] <BradK> +1 for it being an image function to define what channel/luminance is used for alpha
# [18:29] <dael> krit: The first question is do we want it in lvl one, or defer to 2?
# [18:30] <dael> ...: That's the first thing we should answer
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't matter to me. I wonder about it being in 1 for masking, but not shapes
# [18:30] <dael> ...: Not that we should necessarily add it to shapes
# [18:30] <dael> astearns: I think we should make sure that what we add in the future to shapes should be sim. to masking now
# [18:30] <dael> ...: If we decide to have a sep switch from the image, I think it's easy to add that to shapes as a keyword
# [18:31] <dael> ...: Masking has a sep prop. Using hte same keywords is enought o keep similar.
# [18:31] <dael> ...: So masking has a property and shapes uses the same keyword
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: And would the default be alpha, luminance, or auto?
# [18:31] <dael> ...: masking default is auto
# [18:31] <dael> krit: It's just a new keyword. For masking we needed to use auto for backward compat.
# [18:32] <dael> ...: It's different for shapes.
# [18:32] <dael> krit: I think it's an example that mask ?? has alpha and luminance, not auto
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: In my head, auto useful would be if there isn't an alpha, but I don't know if that makes sense from usage
# [18:33] <dael> ...: Currently if you use an image without alpha, it's just opaque
# [18:33] <dael> krit: These are examples we would need to figure out.
# [18:33] * Quits: dwim (~Dongwoo@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:33] <dael> astearns: To your q. if there isn't an alpha, there's esentially not effect.
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: If we have a luminance threshold, we'll need one for alpha. You may want the white or black to be ignored.
# [18:33] <smfr> lumunance(invert(url(foo.png))
# [18:34] <smfr> ^luminance()
# [18:34] <dael> astearns: That may be better served later. It may be too complicated for a simple keyword
# [18:34] * Bert thinks it may finally be time to replace JPEG with JPEG2000, because the latter has an alpha channel...
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: So the q is do we add this now or later?
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: I don't think I hear anyone saying now except fantasai for consistancy with masking
# [18:34] <dael> smfr: I think it's fine to defer, but I'd like more consistant in the future
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: I don't feel very strongly, it was just a concern
# [18:35] <dael> astearns: Okay
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: What I'm hearing is defer to level 2, but when we do it keep it consistant
# [18:35] <BradK> image(url(whatever.tif) alpha-from(luminance))
# [18:35] <dael> astearns: I have a note in lvl 2 about lumenance, and I'll add a note saying we want to be consistant with masking and that we want to be able to select various because I like that idea
# [18:36] <dael> RESOLVED: Defer luminance to lvl 2
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:36] <dael> astearns: That's it exept punctuation.
# [18:36] <dael> ...: So I need to find and fix that example and run it past howcome to make sure the ex works for him
# [18:36] <dael> ...: I'll hopefully ask for CR transition next week
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Ok
# [18:37] <dael> Topic: Relaxing <custom-ident> restictions
# [18:37] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:37] <dael> SimonSapin: In the spec we have a custom-ident that's defined with identifiers
# [18:37] <dael> ...: There's a restriction that these itesm cannot have the same name as keywords in same prop.
# [18:37] <dael> ...: In some cases that would cause parsing ambiguity.
# [18:37] <dael> ...: There are other cases where that wouldn't happen, but they're still restricted.
# [18:38] <dael> ...: I'd like to prop that we only restrict keywords on the same level
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: Can we jsut say that we don't allow ambigous keywords?
# [18:38] <dael> SimonSapin: It depends on how you define ambigous
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: Parsing-wise ambiguous.
# [18:38] * sylvaing_ ambiguity: auto;
# [18:39] <dael> SimonSapin: We can say that, but I don't know how to tell people to figure that out.
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: We can make a list for impl so they don't have to figure it out
# [18:39] <dael> SimonSapin: So when there's custom-ident we list exactly what's excluded?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Yes. It's fairly strightforward, but you have to think about it
# [18:39] <dael> ...: It would be convenient to list them
# [18:40] <dael> ...: Will we run into this again when the custom thing only comes after this keyword, but you can use anything there and no one will parse it wrong.
# [18:40] <dael> ...: It's not just paranthesis that cause issues
# [18:40] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm in favor of removing any restrictions we can
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Let's make it ambigous vs not ambigous and suggest that specs make an explicit list
# [18:40] <dael> ...: Some kinds of formulation of what would be excluded.
# [18:41] <dael> ...: So an example would be that they have something really complex and just say all the keywords in the prop are excluded instead of listing one by one
# [18:41] * Joins: Rossen_f2f (~uid21900@public.cloak)
# [18:41] <dael> SimonSapin: That works for me
# [18:41] <dael> plinss: Any other things?
# [18:41] <dael> s/things/thoughs
# [18:42] <dael> RESOLVED: customer-ident is restirced only in cases where actually ambigous parcing-wise. Specs referencing it should be clear about what is excluded
# [18:42] <SimonSapin> s/parcing/parsing/
# [18:42] <Zakim> -??P33
# [18:42] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:42] <dael> dbaron: One concern is there are cases where you have a list and it's only abmigous on the first, but we want itemst o be tab concistant
# [18:42] <hober> s/customer/custom/
# [18:43] <dael> ...: I wouldn't like us to change restirctions so that you have have it as the second value, but not the first
# [18:43] <dbaron> s/have it/have inherit/
# [18:43] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:43] <dbaron> ... in a comma-separated list
# [18:43] <glazou> russian television ?
# [18:43] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:43] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:43] * sylvaing_ Russia invades CSSWG
# [18:43] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:43] <dael> zakim, who is noisy
# [18:43] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', dael
# [18:43] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: abinader (30%), plinss (4%), fantasai (9%)
# [18:44] * fantasai you need the question mark
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: I agree with dbaron, we don't want that behaviour
# [18:44] <Rossen_> zakim, who is noisy
# [18:44] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', Rossen_
# [18:44] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:44] <smfr> Zakim: mute abinader
# [18:44] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SimonSapin (4%), [IPcaller.a] (22%), fantasai (90%)
# [18:44] <glazou> abinader is not a slavic language speaker so can't be him...
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: I think a way to handle that is the position...I guess if you have a type and it's repeated or movable the repition doesn't effect what's exlucded
# [18:44] * sylvaing_ http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/visit-russia-before-russia-visits-you.jpg
# [18:45] <abinader> my voip app is on mute
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: dbaron are you happy with that phrasing?
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: I guess so.
# [18:45] <dbaron> Zakim, mute [IPcaller.a]
# [18:45] <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should now be muted
# [18:45] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:45] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute [IPcaller.a]
# [18:45] <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should no longer be muted
# [18:45] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:45] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft.aa] (34%), abinader (42%)
# [18:45] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft.aa] (27%), abinader (10%), fantasai (32%)
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: I think we can move on for now
# [18:46] * glazou strange since abinader was muted anyway
# [18:46] <dael> Topic: CSS 2 draft
# [18:46] <abinader> glazou: weird indeed
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: I was hoping plh would be here, but do we have replies from everyone?
# [18:46] * sylvaing_ well, Zakim has me as Oliver Goldman so....
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: Can we merge now, or do we need to wait?
# [18:47] <dael> florian: The conversion is ready, we need aprroval
# [18:47] * glazou "conversion ready" "approval needed" sounds like a meme
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Every message plh sent, I saw a reply from
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Except fantasai and I assume you're not obj.
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: No
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: So we should go ahead and merge it
# [18:47] <dael> florian: So I should do it now?
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Yes.
# [18:47] <SimonSapin> s/florian/SimonSapin/
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: One thing I forgot to ask
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: The ?? WG wants to check the status on break
# [18:48] <dael> ???: What did they want to check?
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: They have a usecase on TTML? and they want to pub
# [18:48] <dael> ...: The goal is to not block them
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: We should have frag in CR, but the end of the year. Rossen_ do you want to chat after the call?
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: Yes
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: We'll figure it out.
# [18:49] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen_: I think we have half a dozen or so on the ML with some editorial requests.
# [18:49] <dael> ...: I don't think we have any technical issues left. I agree we should be good for CR by the end of the year.
# [18:50] <dael> ...: Maybe LC before the next F2F?
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: That would be great.
# [18:50] <dael> Rossen_: I think they should be okay
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: I'll send that feedback then.
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:50] <dael> simonsapin: We have a public CSS2 ED, can we link to it on the current work?
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Yes, I can do that
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: On the masking spec there were keywords added during F2F, fill and stroke, to choose what box to reference.
# [18:51] <dael> ...: These two are inconstatance b/c they don't end in box.
# [18:51] <dael> ...: It's not the fill boundry or anything you're selecting, it's actually a bounding box you're selecting.
# [18:51] <dael> ...: I think they should end in box for consitancy and because that's what the reprsent.
# [18:52] <dael> SimonSapin: I just sent on www-style. we discussed at F2F and people wanted to add new keywords instead of adding box.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I understand the concern, but it's becoming a usability issue
# [18:52] <dael> ...: b/c everything else in the set uses box, it's not helpful to anybody that these don't.
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: I'd be okay if we wannted to change -box to -somethingelse everywhere if we want to do that. We'll take the hit on aliasing background-clip. That's better.
# [18:54] <dael> ...: Doing these and new and we didn't want to use box because we don't like the term box, that's not great in terms of spec wording
# [18:54] <dael> ...: In this case this is a keyword the authors have to use and our arguements about what is/isn't a box doesn't matter to authors and they have to deal with this all the time
# [18:54] <dael> plinss: That makes sense to me. It makes more sense to see them as object-box and stroke-box
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: We're not even using fill and stroke as concepts
# [18:55] <dael> ...: We're boxifying this wierd shape and that's not clear for the keyword
# [18:55] * sylvaing_ likes the sound of boxify
# [18:55] <dael> krit: Whatever we come up with I was the discuss with SVG b/c they wanted just fill and stroke
# [18:55] <dael> plinss: We need to have them part of this discussion, but I think fantasai's proposal makes a lot of sense
# [18:55] <dael> plinss: As a follow, why is it no-clip instead of none
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: The shorthand becomes ambigous with image
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: Ah. krit can you take this to SVG?
# [18:56] <dael> krit: Can we resolve that CSS wants to have it and action me to do it?\
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: OKay, Any obj?
# [18:57] <dael> RESOLVED: Change keywords to be fill-box and stroke-box
# [18:57] <dael> ACTION krit Take this resolution to SVG
# [18:57] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-620 - Take this resolution to svg [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-03-12].
# [18:57] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I was wondering why CSS keywords compute to fill-box
# [18:57] <dael> ...: It seems like borderbox should compute to fill box
# [18:58] <dael> krit: The main reason is they SVG group didn't want to use all the box names b/c stroke isn't the same as border.
# [18:58] <SimonSapin> plinss, http://dev.w3.org/csswg seems stuck in January
# [18:58] <dael> ...: At the F2F we came up with the idea that we have different keywords for HTML and SVG in case the user comes up with a difference
# [18:58] <dael> ...: If that's not clear from the spec we need to rephrase
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: It's clear. I'm just curious why we didn't want to come upw ith something more intellengent.
# [18:59] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [18:59] <dael> krit: It was denyed. Mostly from SVG WG memebrs, but some CSS
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I'd liek to udnerstand the reasoning, but we can do that later.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:59] <dael> plinss: You can take that offline?
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:59] <dael> plinss: I think that's it for this week.
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: How many people at the WG will be at SXSW?
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: No one bt plinss? Wonderful.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:00] <Zakim> -sgalineau
# [19:00] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: SOunds like we can have the call next week.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:00] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:00] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: Thanks everyone.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -abinader
# [19:00] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [19:00] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:00] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:00] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:00] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:00] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:00] * Quits: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:00] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [19:00] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:01] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
# [19:03] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:03] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:05] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [19:07] <SimonSapin> fantasai, the ED should show up at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/ once dev.w3.org gets unstuck
# [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
# [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, dael, abinader, MaRakow, [IPcaller], dauwhe, SimonSapin, sgalineau, krit, hober, rhauck, koji, +1.425.463.aaaa, smfr, florian, Stearns, fantasai,
# [19:09] <Zakim> ... gregwhitworth, +1.303.674.aabb, antonp, glenn, BradK, Bert, dbaron, [Microsoft], Rossen_
# [19:09] * fantasai pokes TabAtkins
# [19:10] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, hear hear
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> Let's party like it's 2008
# [19:12] <fantasai> SimonSapin: checked in
# [19:12] <fantasai> might take a minute or two to show up
# [19:14] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:17] <SimonSapin> fantasai: seems related to dev.w3.org moving to a new host
# [19:18] <SimonSapin> plinss: should we just use http://drafts.csswg.org for EDs? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140305#l-713
# [19:19] <plinss> SimonSapin: we can, but it's good to have them in w3.org space
# [19:19] <plinss> I'm working on just getting dev.w3.org/csswg to just proxy drafts.csswg.org
# [19:20] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:21] <SimonSapin> plinss: please talk to MikeSmith
# [19:21] <plinss> yep, that's the plan
# [19:22] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Is that why Writing Modes is showing some really old data?
# [19:23] * fantasai can't figure this out
# [19:23] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yes
# [19:24] <fantasai> um
# [19:24] <fantasai> and how long is this going on for?
# [19:24] <SimonSapin> http://128.30.54.131/csswg/ is the old host
# [19:24] * fantasai doesn't understand why we have old data on the new host
# [19:24] <fantasai> That draft of Writing Modes is more than 3 weeks old
# [19:24] <SimonSapin> right now the synchronisation is still going to the old host, and Mike would rather not deal with it
# [19:25] <fantasai> any ETA on getting this fixed?
# [19:25] <fantasai> because if that's more than "today/tomorrow", I'm going to request sysreq set up a temporary redirect to the old host
# [19:25] <SimonSapin> plinss: apparently you can make the change yourself in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess?rev=1.21
# [19:27] <plinss> SimonSapin: not sure if I have access to that CVS repo
# [19:27] <SimonSapin> Well, enough of me doing the parrot between two IRC channels. Talk to each other.
# [19:27] <fantasai> plinss: you probably do. If not, I do
# [19:28] <plinss> fantasai: ok, I'll give it a try
# [19:37] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
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# [19:39] <plinss> fantasai: it's not letting me login
# [19:39] <fantasai> okay
# [19:39] <fantasai> paste me the code
# [19:39] <fantasai> hopefully my computer remembers how to log me in
# [19:39] <plinss> thought maybe I'm not using the right cvsroot?
# [19:39] * fantasai doesn't remember
# [19:40] <plinss> should just need to change:
# [19:40] <plinss> RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://w3c-test.org:83/csswg/$1 [P,L]
# [19:40] <fantasai> My computer says
# [19:40] <plinss> to:
# [19:40] <fantasai> export CVSROOT=fantasai@dev.w3.org:/sources/public; export CVS_RSH=ssh;
# [19:40] <plinss> RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://drafts.csswg.org/$1 [P,L]
# [19:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: What am I getting poked for?
# [19:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: scheduling
# [19:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you want me to come down tomorrow
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> Like I said, I've got an interview tomorrow right in the middle of the afternoon.
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> How's Friday for you?
# [19:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That doesn't answer the question :) I could still come down, and we'd be interrupted
# [19:43] * fantasai tries to remember schedule for Friday
# [19:43] <fantasai> I think I'm free Friday
# [19:43] <fantasai> but not 100% sure this second
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> Okay.
# [19:43] <fantasai> You have a preference for Friday?
# [19:43] <TabAtkins> I'd lose at least 45 minutes on Thursday, which is frustrating.
# [19:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [19:44] <fantasai> I could catch an earlier bus :p
# [19:44] <TabAtkins> But then I'd have to get to work earlier. ^_^
# [19:45] <fantasai> heh
# [19:48] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [19:51] <fantasai> plinss: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess.diff?r1=1.22;r2=1.23
# [19:51] <astearns> hmm - getting the right html file from http://dev.w3.org/csswg now, but none of the images are loading
# [19:51] <fantasai> YAY IT WORKS
# [19:51] <fantasai> ok, mostly
# [19:51] <astearns> or stylesheets
# [19:52] <fantasai> I think plinss needs to figure that one out
# [19:53] <plinss> looking
# [19:53] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [19:53] <fantasai> Seems to be a problem on drafts.csswg.org
# [19:53] <fantasai> http://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes/
# [19:53] <fantasai> is also broken
# [19:54] <plinss> ah, that's probably a different issue, working on it
# [19:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've a preference for Thursdays, in general, because MV days tend to get me home fairly late. Bbut if it's a problem I can do Friday
# [19:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It should be fairly easy to kill 45 minutes by assigning me to do some follow-up editing
# [19:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You're still interrupted though
# [19:59] <TabAtkins> I'd really prefer Friday this week.
# [19:59] <TabAtkins> Alternately: we do early and late next week.
# [20:00] <astearns> plinss: I see a file listing for http://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes/images/
# [20:00] <astearns> but clicking any of the images gives a not found page
# [20:00] <plinss> working on it, it's an issue in the black magic realm of RewriteRules
# [20:05] <plinss> astearns: on another note, I just saw your change adding the images to the example in shapes, does the transform apply to the shape?
# [20:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ok
# [20:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can't do early next week
# [20:15] * Quits: lmclister__ (~sid13822@public.cloak) ("")
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# [20:16] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
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# [20:21] <SimonSapin> fantasai: yay, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/ works
# [20:23] <Ms2ger> krit, you should tell plinss about your issue
# [20:25] <krit> Ms2ger: I think it is still Mike who is taking care of the FXTF repository, plinss is that correct?
# [20:26] <plinss> krit: mostly, what's the issue?
# [20:27] <SimonSapin> fantasai: should we announce it?
# [20:29] <krit> 8:17 PM <krit_> MikeSmith: the link to CSS Compositing is broken http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
# [20:29] <krit> 8:17 PM <krit_> MikeSmith: gives me {"error": {"message": "", "code": 404}}
# [20:30] <krit> plinss: --^
# [20:31] <plinss> kirt: ok, yeah, the dev.w3.org/fxtf is broken. I'm working on setting up my own at drafts.fxtf.org, then we'll have dev.w3.org/fxtf proxy that
# [20:31] <plinss> like we just did for dev.w3.org/csswg
# [20:31] <krit> plinss: ok, thanks!
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# [21:04] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Sure
# [21:04] <fantasai> SimonSapin: once plinss fixes things?
# [21:04] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Make sure images load
# [21:04] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Thanks so much for working on that!!!!!!!!!!!!
# [21:04] <plinss> fantasai: should be working now
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# [21:05] <SimonSapin> fantasai: looks fine http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/images/pixel1.png
# [21:06] <SimonSapin> yeah, the conversion was a bit crazy: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/bin/css2-cvs2hg
# [21:06] <SimonSapin> manually patching broken CVS files and stuff
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# [21:58] <plinss> fantasai: can you set up the proxy for dev.w3.org/fxtf too?
# [21:58] <plinss> you should be able to copy the same .htaccess just change drafts.csswg.org to drafts.fxtf.org
# [21:59] <plinss> (there's probably something for FXTF too, not sure if that's a RewriteRule or another directory)
# [22:02] <SimonSapin> "As Daniel Glazman would have one believe with his stories of confrontation at the table and smoky-backroom negotiations in the hallways back during the Netscape-Microsoft browser wars, [...]"
# [22:02] <SimonSapin> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2007/css-wg-q-and-a/ is a nice (re-)read
# [22:05] <astearns> fantasai: issuegen.pl needs to add a <meta charset=utf-8"> to the output to keep Håkon's name from being mangled
# [22:05] <TabAtkins> astearns: Use Bikeshed's built-in issues-list function.
# [22:05] <TabAtkins> (A port of fantasai's perl script.)
# [22:06] <astearns> ok, I'll look that up the next time I have to :)
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> bikeshed issues-list filenamehere.txt
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> outputs to filenamehere.html
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> Undocumented so far, sorry. :/
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> Let me go work on documentation real quick.
# [22:08] <astearns> would it work with api.csswg.org?
# [22:10] <TabAtkins> Hm, there's no way currently to access it, but bug plinss.
# [22:10] <plinss> TabAtkins, astearns: what's the issue? do you need to submit another file?
# [22:11] <TabAtkins> Need some way to access the issues-list function instead of the spec function.
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> (Unfortunately, the automatic name-mangling wont' work through the API, since you have to specify where to output the file to.)
# [22:12] <plinss> ah, ok, so just a cmd line switch?
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> yeah
# [22:12] <plinss> can do
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> bikeshed issues-list [input] [output]
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> Hm, need to check if I support stdin/stdout for that.
# [22:13] <TabAtkins> Yes, I do.
# [22:13] <plinss> I'll try to add that this afternoon
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# [23:06] <fantasai> astearns: dev.w3.org should be sending UTF-8 charset headers
# [23:06] <fantasai> astearns: do you need it locally?
# [23:06] <fantasai> plinss: Updated .htaccess
# [23:07] <fantasai> astearns: if it's an fxtf draft, maybe need to copy parts of csswg/.htaccess
# [23:07] <fantasai> astearns: we have AddDefaultCharset UTF-8
# [23:08] <fantasai> astearns: maybe fxtf/.htaccess needs to add it
# [23:09] <plinss> fantasai: Cool. Thanks. Can you take a look at FXTF too? dev.w3.org/FXTF/ is still 404
# [23:10] <plinss> astearns: I think you probably need to add a .htaccess to the root of the fxtf repo
# [23:35] <SimonSapin> all of our specs have a public ED now, right?
# [23:37] <TabAtkins> I think so, yeah.
# [23:37] <TabAtkins> Fonts' source isn't public, but the generated file is.
# [23:37] <SimonSapin> should we fix that?
# [23:38] <SimonSapin> given that John is not actively editing
# [23:38] <TabAtkins> I think so, yeah.
# [23:39] <astearns> fantasai: ah, this was just me looking at the local copy
# [23:42] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: if we care about the change history I can do another CVS conversion, given the "*,v" files
# [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yes, history would be useful to preserve.
# [23:50] <SimonSapin> fantasai: do you have access to those files?
# [23:53] <fantasai> SimonSapin: which files?
# [23:53] <SimonSapin> css-fonts
# [23:53] * fantasai has access to most CSSWG things
# [23:53] <fantasai> where are they?
# [23:53] <SimonSapin> I don’t know :)
# [23:53] <SimonSapin> somewhere in some CVS repo
# [23:53] <fantasai> I think jdaggett told me at one point, but I don't remember the answer :/
# [23:54] <SimonSapin> should I ping him before publishing this?
# [23:55] <fantasai> publishing what?
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# [23:56] <SimonSapin> css-fonts source files
# [23:58] <fantasai> where are they?
# [23:58] * fantasai is kindof confused
# [23:58] <fantasai> I don't think the ones in the CSSWG internal repository would be that interesting
# [23:59] <fantasai> they look old
# [23:59] <fantasai> I think pretty much everything in the draft is new since it was moved public
# [23:59] <fantasai> well, everything intersting
# Session Close: Thu Mar 06 00:00:00 2014

The end :)