/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-03-12 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 12 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [16:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-css-irc
# [16:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [16:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
# [16:29] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [16:29] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0225.html'
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# [16:48] <astearns_> glazou: extra agenda item - CR for shapes
# [16:49] <glazou> hi Alan ; ok, please say it during my call for extra items
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# [16:51] <glazou> we have enough time for all extras I think
# [16:53] <astearns_> depending on how long the subgrid argument lasts :)
# [16:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [16:54] <Zakim> +dael
# [16:54] <dael> ScribeNick dael
# [16:55] <Zakim> +??P6
# [16:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P6 is me
# [16:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [16:55] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [16:55] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [16:55] <Zakim> +Plh
# [16:55] <Zakim> +glenn
# [16:55] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [16:56] <Zakim> +dauwhe
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# [16:57] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [16:58] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (4%)
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# [16:58] <Zakim> +SGalineau
# [16:58] <Zakim> +??P30
# [16:58] <Zakim> +Bert
# [16:58] <leif1> Zakim, I am ??P30
# [16:58] <Zakim> +leif1; got it
# [16:58] <TabAtkins> I'll be in momentarily. Very rushed today; I need to grab breakfast before I start.
# [16:59] <Zakim> +[Koblenz]
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# [16:59] <rhauck> Zakim, Koblenz is me
# [16:59] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [16:59] <SimonSapin> my SIP client segfaults :/
# [16:59] <glazou> SimonSapin, only means you have to debug it right away ;-)
# [16:59] <Zakim> +hober
# [17:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:00] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (12%)
# [17:00] <Zakim> +??P43
# [17:00] <gregwhitworth> Zkim, Microsoft has me
# [17:00] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aaaa
# [17:00] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
# [17:00] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [17:01] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:01] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (30%)
# [17:01] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aaaa is me
# [17:01] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [17:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:01] <Zakim> -Bert
# [17:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [IPcaller] might possibly be me
# [17:01] <Zakim> I don't understand '[IPcaller] might possibly be me', SimonSapin
# [17:02] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has SimonSapin
# [17:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:02] <Zakim> +Bert
# [17:02] <dael> glazou: Let's start
# [17:03] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
# [17:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
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# [17:03] <dael> astearns_: I'd liek to take shapes to CR
# [17:03] <dael> SimonSapin: One more, fantasai asked for named spaces to be updated
# [17:03] <dael> glazou: Okay.
# [17:03] <dael> glazou: Is that all?
# [17:03] <hober> s/named spaces/namespaces/
# [17:03] <dael> ...: Since TabAtkins is part of almost all this, lets start with Shapes
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# [17:04] <dael> ...: fantasai are you there?
# [17:04] <Bert> s/SimonSapin/Bert/
# [17:04] <dael> Topic: Shapes to CR
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# [17:04] <dael> astearns_: I got some feedback from the WG and I changed an ex based on howcomes feedback
# [17:04] <Zakim> +??P56
# [17:04] <dael> ...: He hasn't responded, but that's all the feedback we've had so we should transition to CR
# [17:04] <dael> glazou: I agree. Other opinions?
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# [17:05] <glazou> Zakim, ??P56 is tantek
# [17:05] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [17:05] <dael> ??: I haven't read the feedback. I'm not sure if I'm confortable w/o review
# [17:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [17:05] <dael> astearns_: howcomes feedback was discussed on call last week with some resolutions. The only part actionable was something to stop using empty divs
# [17:05] <glazou> s/??/leif
# [17:05] <dael> ...: I made those changes and the rest the WG decided to postpose
# [17:05] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [17:06] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
# [17:06] <dael> leif: So the feedback was addressed? In that case I'm fine.
# [17:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [17:06] <dael> astearns_: Any other opinions on the CR transition?
# [17:06] * sylvaing_ is still warming up to BrianKardell as a live concept
# [17:06] * hober DNT calls resumed today, so this time slot is probably testing Zakim's limits once more
# [17:06] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [17:06] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [17:06] <dael> glazou: I guess we can resolve?
# [17:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:07] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aabb
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# [17:07] <dael> RESOLVED: Take Shapes to CR
# [17:07] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aabb is me
# [17:07] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [17:07] <dael> glazou: Who will do the transition process? Bert?
# [17:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:07] <dael> bert: I guess, yes.
# [17:07] <dael> glazou: I'm available for the call.
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# [17:07] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [17:07] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:07] <dael> ??: I think we have calls on Monday if we can move for that
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# [17:07] <dael> glazou: I'm okay with that
# [17:07] <dael> bert: I'll send the transistion request today
# [17:08] <dael> Topic: Namespaces update
# [17:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [17:08] <dael> bert: I just wanted to know how we're going to approach it. It was brought up on the ML
# [17:08] <tantek> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [17:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, glazou, Plh, glenn, Stearns, dauwhe, SGalineau, leif1, rhauck, hober, [Microsoft], ??P43, koji, Bert, tantek, fantasai, BrianKardell, [Bloomberg], MaRakow,
# [17:08] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, TabAtkins, [IPcaller], dbaron
# [17:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has gregwhitworth
# [17:08] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has SimonSapin
# [17:08] <dael> fantasai: We can do it on the call. Any obj to updated namedspaces?
# [17:09] <hober> s/namedspaces/namespaces/
# [17:09] <dael> glazou: I want to see the dev doc. Give me a second
# [17:09] <glenn> q+
# [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <Bert> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-namespaces/#css-qnames Namespaces grammar rules
# [17:09] <dael> glazou: There are a lot of issues. We extraced everything we needed to from the doc, right? Yes. So I have no obj.
# [17:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [17:09] <glazou> Zakim, ack glenn
# [17:09] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [17:10] <dael> glenn: I jsut wanter to verify that the changes don't affect conformance.
# [17:10] <dael> ??: Correct
# [17:10] <SimonSapin> s/??/SimonSapin/
# [17:10] <dael> glenn: So there's no need for a process in other words?
# [17:10] <Zakim> +[Bloomberg.a]
# [17:10] <dael> SimonSapin: I think that's what fantasai was suggesting
# [17:10] <glenn> s/process/PER process/
# [17:10] * TabAtkins I think that last one was plh
# [17:10] <dael> glazou: We lost fantasai
# [17:10] <Bert> (No need for a PER review, as far as I can see.)
# [17:10] <dael> glazou: Any obj about updating the document?
# [17:11] <dael> glazou: Okay. Bert?
# [17:11] <dael> bert: Ok. If that's the conclusion I'll make sure it get published.
# [17:11] <SimonSapin> (TabAtkins, that was me)
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# [17:11] <dael> glazou: I hear to obj so I think there's concensious.
# [17:11] <dael> glazou: TabAtkins are you on call?
# [17:11] <dael> glazou: Not yet.
# [17:11] <fantasai> Sorry, I lost connection
# [17:11] <fantasai> trying to get back on
# [17:11] <TabAtkins> I'm here, one sec
# [17:11] <TabAtkins> dunno why you can't hear me
# [17:11] <TabAtkins> let me re-call
# [17:12] <dael> Topic: Writing modes: Rename extent/measure to block-size/inline-size?
# [17:12] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [17:12] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0822.html
# [17:12] <dael> SimonSapin: There's 2 items.
# [17:12] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [17:12] * dbaron can't hear Simon very well
# [17:12] * fantasai is in favor
# [17:12] * fantasai doesn't know what Simon is sayin either
# [17:12] * fantasai :)
# [17:12] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [17:13] <dael> SimonSapin: We have in the spec extent is the height and measure is width
# [17:13] <dael> ...: I get them wrong b/c it's hard to tell which is which
# [17:13] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [17:13] * Bert likes "measure" but doesn't mind inline size either.
# [17:13] <dael> ...: I prop we do inline-size and block-size
# [17:13] * fantasai zakim, Ipcaller.a is me
# [17:13] * Zakim +fantasai; got it
# [17:13] * fantasai yay
# [17:13] <dael> glazou: I kinda like it.
# [17:13] * fantasai finds the mute button
# [17:13] <dael> glazou: Other comments?
# [17:14] <sylvaing_> SGTM
# [17:14] <astearns_> fine by me
# [17:14] <dael> ???: So your prop is inline-size and block-size?
# [17:14] <TabAtkins> ARGH, still nobody can hear me
# [17:14] <dael> ...: My only obj is that size usually is both width and height
# [17:14] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute me
# [17:14] <Zakim> TabAtkins was not muted, TabAtkins
# [17:14] <TabAtkins> Hrm.
# [17:14] <astearns_> s/???/rossen/
# [17:14] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [17:14] <Zakim> +krit
# [17:14] <dael> rossen: So using size is a bit misleading
# [17:14] <dael> ...: I'd prefer to have one identifier for that.
# [17:14] <Bert> (Box uses inline dimension and block dimension, inspired by XSL's {inline,block}-progression dimension.)
# [17:14] <TabAtkins> We use "size" as a generic term for, well, sizes, all over the place.
# [17:14] * fantasai still need resolution on the CSS namespaces thing?
# [17:14] <TabAtkins> It's not exclusive to width/height.
# [17:15] <dael> ...: If measure and breatdh doesn't work, I'm fine with finding better, but size isn't good.
# [17:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [17:15] <dael> SimonSapin: That was from the ML. I agreed that it could be inline dimenion, not just size
# [17:15] <dael> rossen: How about length?
# [17:15] <dael> SimonSapin: Inline-measure and block-measure would be good.
# [17:15] <fantasai> We decided against length because of mixup with <length>
# [17:15] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Rossen/
# [17:16] <dael> TabAtkins: I tried to obj in chat. We use size all over as a generic word.
# [17:16] <SimonSapin> (once)
# [17:16] <dael> ...: It's not width/heigh specific.
# [17:16] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [17:16] <dael> SimonSapin: Generically I agree, but usually it's both.
# [17:16] * Joins: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak)
# [17:16] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [17:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, but we use size for all kinds of things. It's not tied to a fragment width or height.
# [17:16] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Rossen/
# [17:16] <glenn> how about "length"
# [17:16] * glazou we lost fantasai again?
# [17:17] <dael> Rossen: Again, I think we make mistakes, but why keep going with them?
# [17:17] <glenn> or "dimension"
# [17:17] <SteveZ> How about "block-extent" and "inline-extent"?
# [17:17] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think it's a mistake. I think it's good. I don't want to use measure and length isn't much longer.
# [17:17] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [17:17] <glenn> don't like "size"
# [17:17] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure that this is the best use of our time.
# [17:17] <dbaron> I'm in favor of inline-size and block-size as well, though I'd also be fine with inline-X and block-X for some other X.
# [17:17] <tantek> bikeshedding on the call FTW!
# [17:17] <dael> ...: SimonSapin can you con't over e-mail?
# [17:17] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes.
# [17:18] <dael> ...: I think we agree block-something and inline-something, we just need something
# [17:18] <fantasai> SteveZ, block-extent & inline-measure? :)
# [17:18] <SteveZ> I like the "block-X" and "inline-X" terminology
# [17:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Can we resolve that?
# [17:18] <dael> glazou: I'm okay with that.
# [17:18] <dael> rossen: What's the resolution for?
# [17:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Rename measure and extent to inline-something and blocksomething with something TBA asap
# [17:18] <dael> glazou: rossen, you okay?
# [17:18] <dael> rossen: Mostly. I don't see the point of resolving without the something.
# [17:19] <dael> ...: But if we need a sum resolutions, that's okay.
# [17:19] <dael> RESOLVED: Rename measure and extent to inline-something and block-something with something TBA ASAP
# [17:19] <Zakim> +??P5
# [17:19] <dael> RESOLVED: Update namespaces spec
# [17:19] <tantek> Zakim, ??P5 is tantek
# [17:19] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [17:19] <dael> Action bert to update namespaces spec
# [17:19] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [17:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-621 - Update namespaces spec [on Bert Bos - due 2014-03-19].
# [17:20] <dael> Topic: Lists WD
# [17:20] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0216.html
# [17:20] <Zakim> +BradK
# [17:20] <dael> TabAtkins: The current list spec on TR is from 2011
# [17:20] * tantek gets hung up on when namespaces is discussed. Not surprised.
# [17:20] <dael> ...: It still has old counterstyles. I just want to update TR with current ED
# [17:20] * Bert lol at Tantek
# [17:20] <dael> ...: I don't love it, but it's better then what's there now so I'd like to get rid of the obsolute one.
# [17:21] <dael> fantasai: I think it's good to update even though the draft is shaky, but we should have notices on what's completely experemental and may have compat issues
# [17:21] <dael> ...: So if we take a week to label, I'm happy to pub
# [17:21] * dauwhe tantek: your phone needs to declare the appropriate namespaces or the connection can't be made
# [17:21] <dael> TabAtkins: We can spend time checking everything and doesn't disclaimers
# [17:21] * tantek dauwhe I think you mean CONNEG
# [17:21] <dael> glazou: We agreed a while ago to have changes from previous versions.
# [17:21] <dael> ...: There's only changes from CSS2.1
# [17:22] <dael> fantasai: I think this is appropriate because this is so out of date.
# [17:22] <fantasai> s/this/old version/
# [17:22] <dael> glazou: I agree, but we need to say exactly hat you said.
# [17:22] <fantasai> fantasai^: This is pretty much a rewrite
# [17:22] <dael> ...: We're not the only ones to read the whole spec
# [17:22] <dael> glazou: Tweek the edits and do the reviews and everything?
# [17:22] <dael> fantasai: So we'll aim for next Thursday to pub?
# [17:23] <dael> glazou: So is that a decision to pub today or revisit next week?
# [17:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Unless anyone needs to review our changes, I'd like a resolution and we'll post when it's ready
# [17:23] <dael> glazou: obj?
# [17:23] * Joins: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak)
# [17:23] * fantasai glazou, I'll need to leave 5-10 min early
# [17:23] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of Lists
# [17:23] <dael> Topic: Shadow Styling
# [17:23] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd like to discuss what's I've added as a resolution to what we've discussed.
# [17:23] * tantek is guessing this has nothing to do with box-shadow
# [17:24] * tantek or text-shadow
# [17:24] <glazou> more shadow dom
# [17:24] <dael> ...: I agreed with fantasai that using a pseudo for the root is good, but shadow root was bad
# [17:24] * tantek glazou is that dom or doom?
# [17:24] <dael> ...: Our comp. is that the shadow pseudo exists, but so does shadow deep and a shadow combinator.
# [17:24] * glazou good point, tantek...
# [17:24] * sylvaing_ it's shadows all the way down
# [17:24] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [17:24] <Zakim> -??P43
# [17:24] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [17:24] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [17:25] <dael> ...: Reason for shadow combinator is b/c we don't think we'll have the shadow pseudo soon b/c it's had to do pseudo and combinator.
# [17:25] <dael> ...: I think dedundency allows a more reasonable timetable
# [17:25] <dael> fantasai: I don't think redundency makes sense b/c there's going to ship
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: We can't want a year to ship. We can do a combiantor not a pseudo
# [17:25] <tantek> "not going to wait a year" <-- is that an extension of the "ultimatum" ?
# [17:25] * sylvaing_ doesn't really care about anyone's shipping schedule.
# [17:25] <dael> fantasai: Rather then hacking CSS to have two things that do the same thing, hack your parser and put it there.
# [17:26] <dael> TabAtkins: That's a bad solution
# [17:26] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't make sense to say we want this, but we're doing this
# [17:26] * tantek braces himself for the (w3c)memes
# [17:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Shadow combinator isn't bad b/c it does consistant with shadow-deep
# [17:26] <dael> ...: Pseudo works witht he rest of CSS, but not here
# [17:26] <dael> fantasai: Then we should do combinator. Both doesn't make sense.
# [17:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with doing just combinator. We don't lose power
# [17:27] * plh has to drop
# [17:27] <dael> fantasai: Yes you do
# [17:27] <Zakim> -Plh
# [17:27] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what the top one is for
# [17:27] <fantasai> s/top/:top/
# [17:27] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [17:27] <dael> glazou: I feel we have to decide something under pressure due to TabAtkins's employeers demands. That's personal.
# [17:27] <dael> ...: As a amember I don't care about that agenda. I want it right way.
# [17:27] * tantek is wondering if glazou is channeling Bert: "I want CSS done the right way."
# [17:27] <dael> ...: I don't like the pressure and I don't like any of the prop solutions
# [17:28] <dael> TabAtkins: I understand. I don't like this, but we need something in a reasoanable time frame
# [17:28] <dael> ...: We have something that would work and something that wouldn't.
# [17:28] <dael> ???: TabAtkins you could always prefix now and impl later.
# [17:28] <hober> s/???/hober/
# [17:28] <dael> TabAtkins: If we impl prefix it'll stick and we can't remove later.
# [17:28] <dael> TabAtkins: If we do that, we should pick a name and assume that'll go in a spec later.
# [17:29] <dael> hober: So is the combinator completely out of the question?
# [17:29] <hober> s/hober/rossen/
# [17:29] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with just combinators. I added pseudo for fantasai but I'm fine with any solution in the draft
# [17:29] * glazou tantek the main thing is always to keep the main thing the main thing, eh
# [17:29] * sylvaing_ thinks Google is welcome to ship whatever it wants. And the WG is free to disagree and change its mind later. Life goes on.
# [17:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Pure combinators are fine with me, but I can be flexable
# [17:29] * fantasai "I'm flexible as long as I get what I want"
# [17:29] <dael> glazou: So you're asking for the WG to agree to do something
# [17:29] * tantek is leaning towards sylvaing_'s opinion.
# [17:30] <dael> ...: I don't think we need more time on this discussion, I think we need to do an answer.
# [17:30] <bkardell_> I think pure combinators seems like a better idea... we can always add pseudo element later. you can't add combinators later here, they are kinda the thing that we need
# [17:30] * krit fantasai: "I can be flexible here because it is what I prefer"
# [17:30] <dael> glazou: Who agrees with TabAtkins? Let you publish this like the WG agrees with it.
# [17:30] <SimonSapin> (glazou, your mike is saturating)
# [17:30] <dael> glazou: You're asking for a combinator decision
# [17:30] * tantek glazou your microphone is saturating/clipping.
# [17:30] <dael> glazou: You want to WG to agree about the combinator
# [17:31] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do pure combinator or combinator and pseudo combination in the draft
# [17:31] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: But I want a decision.
# [17:31] <dael> glazou: So who objects?
# [17:31] <dael> fantasai: don't agree with athat
# [17:31] * tantek suggests a cagematch.
# [17:31] <dael> fantasai: I don't agree with having two things that do the same thing with no better reason then Google wants to ship
# [17:31] <SteveZ> I am unhappy with having a redundant feature
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Are you okay with just comb.
# [17:32] <dael> fantasai: I think combinator and :top solution is pretty messy.
# [17:32] <dael> ...: I don't htink it's a good solution
# [17:32] * sylvaing_ google's shipping policy shouldn't force a decision on anything
# [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Do you dislike enough to obj?
# [17:32] * sylvaing_ if there isn't any consensus, there isn't.
# [17:32] <dael> fantasai: I do enough given that the reason is you want to ship
# [17:32] <fantasai> s/reason/argument in the other direction/
# [17:32] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [17:32] <dael> ...: I agree with sylvaing
# [17:33] <dael> glazou: There doesn't seem to be agreement and I'm not ready to agree to let this go.
# [17:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Keep in mind this started in Sept. It didn't get much attention, but it's been there for a while
# [17:33] <bkardell_> Can we take a straw poll on which choice has more disagreement? :)
# [17:34] <dael> glazou: I was saying that the thing no one is paying attention to is false.
# [17:34] <Zakim> -tantek
# [17:34] * sylvaing_ how long the issue has been open is no grounds to force a decision either
# [17:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I can show the lack of e-mail
# [17:34] <dael> glazou: THat's a lack of discussion, not the lack of attention.
# [17:34] <dael> TabAtkins: So if someone reviewed and gave no feedback, that's normall a check
# [17:34] * sylvaing_ what part of 'no consensus' is unclear
# [17:34] <dael> glazou: That does happen all the time
# [17:34] <tantek> it IS hard to tell silent consent from silent apathy.
# [17:34] <dael> TabAtkins: It's hard to tell concent from not caring.
# [17:34] * hober too
# [17:35] <dael> ...: I'd like a resolution
# [17:35] <tantek> oh looks like hober also disagrees
# [17:35] <dael> glazou: So sylvaing, fantasai, and myself don't like to have a resolution right now.
# [17:35] <dael> glazou: I'd like to hear from others. hober too.
# [17:35] * sylvaing_ I don't mind people requesting a decision. I do mind people demanding them. there is a huge difference.
# [17:35] <glenn> -1
# [17:35] <dael> ...: I'd like positive or negative, but I want more.
# [17:35] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [17:35] <dael> rossen: I would actually prefer to have a solution as well
# [17:35] * TabAtkins sylvaing_, I 've been requesting a decision since the f2f...
# [17:35] <hober> I agree with sylvaing/fantasai/glazou
# [17:35] * sylvaing_ so what?
# [17:35] <dael> ...: I'd prefer something not forced by time, but I don't htink we're too far from a conclusion.
# [17:36] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [17:36] <dael> ...: Saying we have to ship isn't great, but it will get a decision sooner or later.
# [17:36] <dael> ...: I'm for making progress and I htink the shipping thing can be premitted.
# [17:36] * krit TabAtkins you just forgot to mention that you want to ship immediately at the F2F :P
# [17:36] <dael> glazou: We have 4 people that don't want to make a decision, so there isn't concensious. I'm sorry
# [17:36] * tantek Google threatening to ship reminds me of MS threatening to ship years ago.
# [17:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Just be aware that time will force us to decide something and ship it so no decision is a decision
# [17:37] <dael> glazou: So I can't care a a co-chair
# [17:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We tried to do this publicly so everyone was aware.
# [17:37] * sylvaing_ tantek, yes. Google doing a super good job playing old-school MSFT
# [17:37] <dael> glazou: I'm here to make the decision of the WG and the WG opinion is to not decide now.
# [17:37] * hober "Further, we will take on an active commitment to shepherd the feature through the standards process, accepting the burden of possible API changes."
# [17:37] <dael> ??: Can i ask a q of TabAtkins?
# [17:37] * tantek is grateful for MSFT's evolution.
# [17:37] * tantek is hopeful Google will similarly mature/evolve.
# [17:37] <dael> ??: Could google get away without top pseudo class?
# [17:38] * krit at least Google is transparent and open when they are threatening
# [17:38] <SimonSapin> s/??/tantek/
# [17:38] * hober ( from http://www.chromium.org/blink#TOC-Exceptions )
# [17:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it's needed to content combinator, but I'm not 100% sure.
# [17:38] * glazou tantek thomas reardon is consulting at google these days ?-)
# [17:38] <dael> ...: We could maybe get away without it
# [17:38] * Rossen_ tantek, thank sylvaing_ for that :)
# [17:38] <tantek> SimonSapin - no I am not speaking on the phone.
# [17:38] <dael> Tantek: It seems like you need a combinator, it I was wondering if we could narrowdown and avoid controversy
# [17:38] <SimonSapin> (oops, sorry)
# [17:38] <dbaron> s/Tantek/??/
# [17:38] <tantek> dael no that is not me
# [17:38] <dael> fantasai: The idea of pseudo is you use it to avoid other combinators
# [17:38] * TabAtkins that's dauwhe, right?
# [17:38] <tantek> who was speaking before fantasai?
# [17:39] <dael> ...: so shadow combinator is the same ans the pseudo.
# [17:39] * TabAtkins or is it bkardell
# [17:39] * dauwhe not me
# [17:39] <dael> ...: If youw ant the top combinator you avoid using the pseudo
# [17:39] <fantasai> e.g. A /shadow/ B is equivalent to A::shadow B
# [17:39] <dael> tantek: So the shadow deep wouldn't make sense as a pseudo.
# [17:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [17:39] <fantasai> and A /shadow/ B:top is equivalent to A::shadow > B
# [17:39] <astearns_> /me can't be bkardell - he's not saying, "Brian thinks that..."
# [17:39] <tantek> s/tantek/Brian
# [17:39] <glazou> LOL
# [17:39] * tantek has been on mute this whole time.
# [17:39] <bkardell_> lol
# [17:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, we can move on.
# [17:40] * tantek is self-muted for reason of excess snarkiness.
# [17:40] <dael> Topic: :Changed pseudo-class
# [17:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I can't pull up the thread b/c I don't have easy internet
# [17:40] * sylvaing_ does not believe in snarkiness excess
# [17:40] <SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0217.html
# [17:40] <dael> ...: explination is he asked for a pseudo for anything touched by the user since the form was done.
# [17:40] <tantek> yes we kind of need this
# [17:40] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0511.html , rather
# [17:40] <dael> ...: It's not about validity, but if the value was changed.
# [17:40] <tantek> because existing valid/invalid pseudos are crap for actual decent UX
# [17:40] <dael> ...: Seemed reasonable
# [17:41] * tantek going to unmute
# [17:41] <dael> ...: Usecase was to color anything touched when modifying data so you can see what's changed and you know what will change with submit button
# [17:41] * krit tantek nooooooo!
# [17:41] <dael> fantasai: Is this checking against initial state on DOm or if you change something twice?
# [17:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd against the DOM.
# [17:41] <dael> ...: Value vs default value
# [17:41] * krit tantek sorry, meant http://nooooooooooooooo.com
# [17:41] * tantek googles "onchange" and sees w3cschools. Nooooooooooooooo!
# [17:41] <dael> dbaron: I think we want has the user touched it more than is tha value diff from default
# [17:41] * tantek agrees with dbaron. remutes.
# [17:42] <tantek> dbaron++
# [17:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Q is what would revoke the user touched it. I can see where there's a revert button to stop match change
# [17:42] <dael> dbaron: I would think input reset should.
# [17:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that clears things, but I'm not sure.
# [17:42] <dael> dbaron: Did we agree to add UI invalid?
# [17:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
# [17:42] <dael> dbaron: I htink this is less important then as the UI invalid is combined with invalid
# [17:42] <Zakim> -tantek.a
# [17:43] * tantek gets hung up on again!
# [17:43] <dael> dbaron: I still tend to think we want something where user hasn't touched it.
# [17:43] <dael> ...: Feedback would be good from those with use cases
# [17:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd be happy to go into more detail with use cases.
# [17:43] <dael> fantasai: We might want both
# [17:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Possibly.
# [17:44] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll gather more info and bring up later.
# [17:44] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:44] <dael> Topic: <custom-ident>
# [17:44] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0218.html
# [17:44] <dael> SimonSapin: We had the res last week
# [17:44] <dael> ...: That also applied to css-wide keywords
# [17:44] <fantasai> s/That/It wasn't clear whether that/
# [17:45] <dael> SimonSapin: fantasai made the point that we have different words. Some names that would be a problem, you couldn't use them in other properties
# [17:45] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [17:45] <dael> ...: So maybe we should exclude CSS keywords on both sides
# [17:45] * dbaron can't quite hear SimonSapin well enough
# [17:45] <TabAtkins> Example: You jlicould maybe write "grid-template-rows: 5px (inherit) 10px", but you couldn't then write "grid-row-start: inherit;"
# [17:45] <dael> SimonSapin: fantasai is that a good explination?
# [17:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I can restate
# [17:45] <Zakim> +??P0
# [17:46] <dael> TabAtkins: So the resolution we wanted was that you only had to exclude keywords in same context as you
# [17:46] <dael> ...: but global keywords, fantasai asked if we should always exclude
# [17:46] <tantek> darn it - got hung up on again
# [17:46] * tantek checks the logs to see what happened :/
# [17:46] <dael> ...: Futhermore keywords that are limited in one prop but used in another if we should still rec./require that they would be invalid b/c they would be invalid in other context
# [17:47] <dael> ...: IN the example you could use it there, but not in grid-row-start.
# [17:47] <tantek> Zakim, ??P0 is tantek
# [17:47] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [17:47] <tantek> (I think)
# [17:47] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [17:47] <dbaron> It seems good to have the same invalidity rules for grid template line names in all contexts.
# [17:47] <dael> ...: Should we say that's disallowed, or in some places you can define against a set of disallowed, even if it's invalid in a different place
# [17:47] <dael> dbaron: I htink same rules everywhere is better
# [17:47] <dael> TabAtkins: The ppotential issues is that invalidates a lot.
# [17:47] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
# [17:47] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [17:48] <dael> ...: for ex counterstyles has a lot so you have to exclude, for ex none.
# [17:48] <dael> ...: There's another half dozen in there, should they all be exlcuded as counter style names?
# [17:48] <dael> fantasai: Maybe short hand vs long hand, though that changes over time
# [17:48] <dael> ...: What's clear is excluding global words would be better.
# [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, so anyting in top level excludes.
# [17:49] <dael> stevezilles: It's easuer to exclude all of them. There aren't that many and it's easuer to remember to exclude them all
# [17:49] <fantasai> s/in there/in list-style shorthand/
# [17:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure, though.
# [17:49] <dael> ...: When someonet imes to make a counter style name outside and it doesn't work, is that confusing?
# [17:49] <dael> ...: I'm not certain
# [17:49] <fantasai> s/name/named/
# [17:50] <dael> stevezilles: Alt. is ther person making it not sure it's valid or not sure it's invalid?
# [17:50] <dbaron> I'm fine with the shorthand/longhand distinction.
# [17:50] <dael> ...: The nice thing about a simple rules is even if it's obnoxious, it's easy to aplly b/c you don't need context.
# [17:50] <dael> ...: That's why I advocate for it. There's times when people don't know how to use something because it's context based
# [17:50] <dael> TabAtkins: That makse sense, but what's simpier?
# [17:51] <glazou> s/concensious/consensus
# [17:51] <dael> TabAtkins: At this point we're talking spec author. Maybe we can resolve that we disallow global and recommend authors disallow any problem valuse
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# [17:51] <dael> fantasai: It's a little bit looser, but it allows if you have a value with a req keyword and a custom-ident, that clearly makes its own linkspace
# [17:51] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:51] <dael> ...: It won't conflict so there's no need to exclude.
# [17:52] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (18%)
# [17:52] <dael> ...: So I guess I'm going with more nuanced context.
# [17:52] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:52] <fantasai> s/context/"context"/
# [17:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Only reason I'm not happy it doesn't have any defaul allowances.
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# [17:52] * dbaron thinks Zakim isn't listening to two out of three of its noisy inputs
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# [17:52] * nvdbleek3 is now known as nvdbleek
# [17:52] <dael> ...: It allows you to spec any custom-ident, I'd prefer a list of default and allow custom
# [17:52] <dael> fantasai: I think the idea was a general rule, but each spec explains in a more specific way
# [17:53] <dael> ...: b/c the rule a a little subjec to misinterpretation or eq. thinking.
# [17:53] <dael> ...: But if you could tell in this context, this is excluded.
# [17:53] <tantek> btw, re: :changed, I noted (1) that making it user-action sensitive is more useful (per the usecases), and (2) concern that :changed would/might mean something different that the ONCHANGE event. Said this on the phone but got disconnected.
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# [17:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm aiming for easier spec maintentence. I don't want to req spec authoers to include.
# [17:53] <dael> ...: People will forget and it'll be missed
# [17:53] <dael> fantasai: Both these versions have a defaul rule.
# [17:54] <dael> ...: If you give the authors an easy expliantion, that's btter.
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# [17:54] <dael> fantasai: My rule is about parsing.
# [17:54] <dael> glazou: We should wrap up
# [17:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm happy with parsing ambiguity.
# [17:54] <fantasai> an identifier that could be interpreted as a pre-defined keyword in any position or multiplication of the <custom-ident> component value is excluded, and is invalid as a <custom-ident> matching to that component value even in positions where its use would be technically unambiguous. For example, if a keyword could be misparsed when specified as the first item of a ''<custom-ident>+'' list, it is invalid when specified in any position in that list.
# [17:54] <dael> dbaron: Which one?
# [17:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't recall, I was remember last week minutes
# [17:55] <dael> see above
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# [17:55] <dael> fantasai: I'm happy with clearer wording, but I thnk that's a good rule
# [17:55] <dael> TabAtkins: It's possible that needs a short hand explination
# [17:55] * dauwhe I'm fine with any rule that could be built into a CSS validator.
# [17:55] <fantasai> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
# [17:55] <fantasai> s/explination/exception/
# [17:56] <dael> fantasai: Let's do this on the list as a thread, I have to go
# [17:56] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0127.html
# [17:56] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
# [17:56] <dael> glazou: So I guess this is it for the day. We had one item left, subgrid, but no time to discuss
# [17:56] * fantasai bye!
# [17:56] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [17:56] <Zakim> -SGalineau
# [17:56] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [17:56] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [17:56] <dael> glazou: Thank you everyone, talk to you next week.
# [17:56] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [17:56] <Zakim> -glazou
# [17:56] <Zakim> -BradK
# [17:56] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [17:56] <Zakim> -hober
# [17:56] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [17:56] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [17:56] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [17:56] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [17:56] <Zakim> -glenn
# [17:56] <Zakim> -dael
# [17:56] <Zakim> -tantek
# [17:56] * Parts: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (rhauck)
# [17:56] <Zakim> -Bert
# [17:57] * leif1 wonders if w3cmemes is aware that TestTWF Seoul will be in Gangnam
# [17:57] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
# [17:57] <Zakim> -koji
# [17:57] * smfr leif1!
# [17:57] <glazou> leif1, don't tempt hober
# [17:58] <astearns_> hehe
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# [17:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [17:58] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [17:58] * astearns_ wonders what a Gangnam dino should look like
# [17:58] <krit> fantasai: Just a friendly reminder to look at the open issues http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/issues-lc-2013.html for masking http://www.w3.org/TR/css-masking-1/ :) .... this is not the version with mask-composite and multiple layers
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# [18:01] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/03/12-css-irc#T17-03-31
# [18:02] * ChrisL that feeling where youkeep an eye on the clock for the 6pm call, and then realise it was at 5pm :(
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# [18:04] <tantek> ChrisL - blame DST
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# [18:09] * sylvaing_ read Gangnam dino and thought of Dean Jackson. Good times.
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# [18:12] <Zakim> -leif1
# [18:12] * dauwhe astearns: the real question is what a Gangnam dino cookie would look like
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# [18:27] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:32] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Bloomberg.a], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [18:32] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:32] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, Plh, glenn, Stearns, dauwhe, SGalineau, Bert, leif1, rhauck, hober, gregwhitworth, koji, SimonSapin, tantek, fantasai, BrianKardell, [Bloomberg],
# [18:32] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], MaRakow, SteveZ, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins, dbaron, [IPcaller], krit, BradK, Rossen_
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# [18:49] <tantek> ok, because there are reasonable nerds in here that have opinions about webarch - who can give reasons to call things URIs instead of URLs?
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# [18:49] <tantek> I tried to rationalize it yesterday and failed. About to give up but thought I'd ask first.
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# [18:51] <TabAtkins> There is no reason. URI is an unfamiliar term, and the distinctions are silly and shouldn't be born by the top-levle name.
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# [18:51] <astearns_> because you can pretend you were just using a bad font with an uppercase 'i' that looks the same as the uppercase 'l'?
# [18:52] <tantek> TabAtkins - you're not helping. ;)
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> tantek: Sure I am - I'm encouraging you to give up. ^_^
# [18:52] <tantek> heh. And don't even get me started on IRI
# [18:53] <tantek> too bad they didn't go with IRL
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# [18:58] <Bert> Things can de identified by their location ("10, main st"; or "protocol:server/path"), but that is not the only possibility. You also identify things by name ("Tantek," "urn:," "tel:") or by their content ("ni:hash," Freenet URIs, magnet URIs). So URI is a better name than URL.
# [18:59] <Bert> But I assume that that's too obvious. You're referring to something else, maybe?
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> Bert: That's just their location in name-space. ^_^
# [19:00] <tantek> TabAtkins - I disagree. A name is a thing vs. a location is where you go get a thing.
# [19:01] <tantek> That being said, "tel:" in practice is not a name
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> I was tongue-in-cheek.
# [19:01] <tantek> it's an action
# [19:01] <tantek> "try to dial this phone number"
# [19:01] <tantek> as implemented
# [19:02] <tantek> Bert, I no longer believe in URNs - they are mythical / theoretical and never used on the web
# [19:02] <tantek> i.e. I challenge you to provide an example of a URN that a browser implements - where typing it into the address bar does something
# [19:02] <tantek> does something "name-like" I should say
# [19:03] <tantek> as opposed to does something scheme-primarily specific, e.g. like tel: = start a phone cal
# [19:03] <tantek> *call
# [19:03] <Bert> Dialling is only one possible action. Another action is comparing it to another number to see if they are the same. And yet another action is communicating the number to somebody who needs it.
# [19:03] <tantek> Bert - dialing is not just "one possible action" - it's what's interoperably implemented.
# [19:04] <Bert> Telephone numbers are indeed a bit of a mix between location and name: within a country (at least here in Europe) they are location-independent, but they still have a country prefix...
# [19:05] <tantek> similarly, "mailto:" means the action of "open a new message to ..."
# [19:06] <Bert> geo: is another interesting case: it defines a location, but no protocol to get there. :-)
# [19:07] <tantek> which is perhaps navigation of another sort
# [19:16] <tantek> the canonical examples of URNs, e.g. isbn:, don't actually do anything in browsers, nor does anyone use them (in non-theoretical-examples) on the web.
# [19:23] <Bert> Why do you insist on browsers? I'm currently writing an RFC and one of the tools the IETF provide to help with that turns ISBN URIs into XML with bibliographic data, ready to be included in a references section. That's not a browser, but it *is* a Web client.
# [19:23] <tantek> what I discovered from some of this research is that schemes for things other than locations, tend to be used to launch other applications.
# [19:24] <tantek> Bert - what about that tool makes it a *Web* client? How is it not just a text processor? What is "webby" about it?
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# [19:29] <Bert> It doesn't have any data itself, but it knows how to find what it needs online and process it into the form the user wants.
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)