/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-03-19 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 19 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:00] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but what I meant is that there's nothing really distinguishing the "namespace" from the "name".
# [00:00] <TabAtkins> Unless you stick to the HTML practice of no separating between words in the name.
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# [00:59] <otherliam> xmlns:my: "http://www.exmaple.com/"; my:border-wiggle: 0.2;
# [00:59] * otherliam hides
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# [01:00] <liam> oops, don't need to hide _that_ much
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# [02:07] <heycam> another advantage of "--" as a prefix rather than a substring; we can leave off the prefix inside var(...), just like we leave off "var-" at the moment
# [02:14] <liam> not sure how "we can do what we already do" is an advantage? am i being slow, heycam?
# [02:14] <liam> (not saying it's undesirable though)
# [02:15] <heycam> 'just like we leave off "var-"' is just explanatory
# [02:15] <heycam> not the advantage itself
# [02:15] <liam> oh, ok
# [02:24] <heycam> TabAtkins, when you discuss the topic during the telcon, if you do manage to agree on a new prefix, please decide also whether the prefix should be left off inside the var()
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# [03:18] <SimonSapin> liam: you could split hairs and say it doesn’t have a downside that other proposals have
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# [04:00] <liam> SimonSapin, me, be pedantic? moi? :)
# [04:01] <SimonSapin> I wouldn’t dare saying something like that :)
# [04:02] <liam> :D
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# [10:51] <glazou> TabAtkins, yt?
# [10:54] <glazou> I found a few emails and blog postings related to TabAtkins 's proposal for CSS OM but no spec proposal
# [10:55] <glazou> is there one?
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# [10:55] <glazou> more specifically, it seems his proposal is more related to Element.style
# [10:55] <glazou> and not to Stylesheet's OM
# [11:04] <SimonSapin> glazou: afaik there is nothing more than the blog posts
# [11:04] <glazou> thanks SimonSapin
# [11:05] <SimonSapin> but I think he also said he was waiting for people to show interest before continuing this
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# [14:10] <glazou> SimonSapin, TabAtkins : http://is.gd/TZbyaq
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# [16:23] <TabAtkins> glazou: Proposal is mostly in my blog post for now.
# [16:23] <glazou> ok
# [16:23] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/b4UD0
# [16:24] <TabAtkins> I wanna write it up in something a little more formal when I have time.
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# [16:49] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [16:49] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
# [16:49] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [16:49] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0423.html'
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# [16:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [16:56] <Zakim> +krit
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# [16:58] <Zakim> +??P1
# [16:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??p1 is me
# [16:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [16:58] <tantek> brb
# [16:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [16:58] <Zakim> +dael
# [16:58] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
# [16:58] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
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# [16:59] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:00] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [17:00] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaaa
# [17:00] <dauwhe> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:00] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
# [17:00] <Zakim> +??P6
# [17:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
# [17:01] <astearns> zakim, aabb is me
# [17:01] <Zakim> +astearns; got it
# [17:01] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:02] * zcorpan just dialed in, not sure who is me above
# [17:02] <Zakim> +??P9
# [17:02] <dbaron> Zakim, mute P9
# [17:02] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P9
# [17:02] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ??P9
# [17:02] <Zakim> ??P9 should now be muted
# [17:02] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P9 is dbaron
# [17:02] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [17:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:02] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (19%), [Microsoft] (23%)
# [17:02] <dbaron> I probably won't make it through the whole call; it's currently midnight here.
# [17:03] <Zakim> +??P10
# [17:03] <dael> My mic and keyboard are closer together then usual, so if you hear typing, tell me and I'll mute.
# [17:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P10 is me
# [17:03] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
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# [17:03] <gregwhitworth> Got it, sorry about that
# [17:03] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [17:03] <gregwhitworth> :)
# [17:03] <glazou> dbaron, you're in india ?
# [17:03] <dbaron> glazou, Taiwan
# [17:04] <glazou> ok
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# [17:04] * glazou notes to self , -1 is EAST grrr
# [17:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [17:04] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [17:04] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [17:05] <Zakim> +hober
# [17:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [17:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:06] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (42%), glazou (4%), dauwhe (4%), [IPcaller] (36%)
# [17:06] <fantasai> Zakim, IPcaller is fantasai
# [17:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [17:06] <fantasai> mute fantasai
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# [17:06] <fantasai> zakim, mute fantasai
# [17:06] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
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# [17:06] <krit> mute krit
# [17:06] * sylvaing_ furious typing is furious
# [17:06] <dbaron> zcorpan, you sound like you're in an echo chamber
# [17:06] <zcorpan> Zakim, who is noisy
# [17:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', zcorpan
# [17:07] * glazou confirms
# [17:07] <krit> Zakim, mute krit
# [17:07] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
# [17:07] <Zakim> +Bert
# [17:07] <zcorpan> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:07] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [17:07] <dbaron> zcorpan, I didn't understand the bit after "THis is Simon from Opera"
# [17:07] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (32%), plinss (57%), Bert (13%)
# [17:07] <dael> ...: Any additions?
# [17:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:07] <dael> bert: TPAC maybe?
# [17:07] <dael> plinss: Okay. Anything else?
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# [17:07] <dael> plinss: Okay TPAC
# [17:08] <dael> plinss: Which days? Mon-tues or thurs-fri, extra day? who where?
# [17:08] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:08] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [17:08] <dael> ...: Opinions?
# [17:08] * zcorpan dbaron ok :-/ i'll try to hold up the laptop and see if that helps
# [17:08] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [17:08] <dael> ??: Monday or Tuesday is good
# [17:08] <dauwhe> s/??/dauwhe/
# [17:08] <dael> plinss: Do we want to meet the day before?
# [17:08] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [17:08] <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
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# [17:08] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
# [17:08] <Zakim> -glazou
# [17:08] <Zakim> + +33.1.34.51.aadd
# [17:08] * TabAtkins zakim, aacc is me
# [17:08] * Zakim +TabAtkins; got it
# [17:08] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is me
# [17:08] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:08] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:08] <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
# [17:08] <dael> dbaron: I think it's worth noting we'll be meeting less then 2 months prior.
# [17:08] <dael> plinss: So maybe not bother witht he extra day?
# [17:09] <dael> plinss: Fine by me. Anyone want to?
# [17:09] <dael> ...: We can try and add it late.
# [17:09] * sylvaing_ given the proximity of the Sept. meeting + the length of TPAC, OK with two days
# [17:09] <dael> ...: Monday Tuesday okay for everyone?
# [17:09] <glazou> +1
# [17:09] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [17:09] * zcorpan said earlier that Zakim doesn't know who i am on irc
# [17:09] <dael> Bert: Who will fill out questionarre?
# [17:09] <dael> plinss: I'll take care
# [17:09] <dael> Topic: Flexbox CR Disposition of Comments
# [17:09] * fantasai zakim, unmute fantasai
# [17:09] * Zakim fantasai should no longer be muted
# [17:10] <dael> fantasai: The question is are people familiar or should I go over it or give more time?
# [17:10] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aaee
# [17:10] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aaee is me
# [17:10] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [17:10] <dael> plinss: Everyone is highly participitory today
# [17:10] <SimonSapin> plinss, if we have time, agenda+ renaming measure/extent
# [17:10] <dael> plinss: Run though the issues and we'll see if we can resolved
# [17:10] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0350.html
# [17:10] <dael> fantasai: Those are the thigns with summary
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# [17:10] <dbaron> I believe dholbert had looked at it and sent comments on the list
# [17:10] <dael> ...: 19 is the major, it's min size of flex items
# [17:11] <dael> ...: Does anyone but me TabAtkins or rossen have an opinions?
# [17:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Flex org added an auto min and you could turn it off
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# [17:11] <dael> ...: Made things confusing, so we reverted to min 0, but that makes conf too
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# [17:11] <dael> ...: Slight tweet to make min content if there's a non-visible overflow
# [17:11] <dael> ...: You couldn't tell things were overflowing and it was confusing
# [17:11] <fantasai> s/tweet/tweak/
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# [17:12] <dael> ...: So if your default is non-zero there's a min width
# [17:12] <dael> ...: THis gives us the benefit before were flex doesn't shrink too much, but avoids biggest problem
# [17:12] <dael> ...: IE already impl this behavior
# [17:12] <fantasai> dholbert's comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0428.html
# [17:12] <dael> ...: It set min as 0 and you had to set it to be something like .1 to get the real deal
# [17:12] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [17:12] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [17:12] <dael> ...: So we think this would fix it.
# [17:12] <dael> TabAtkins: Unless anyone objects, I think we shoudl resolve
# [17:13] <Zakim> +BradK
# [17:13] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay, but I find it odd since it is different than overflow in other contexts.
# [17:13] <dael> ...: I think there are some where overflow suppresses propigation of intrinsic size
# [17:13] <dael> fantasai: That's what we're doing
# [17:13] <dael> dbaron: It sounds the opposite.
# [17:13] <dael> fantasai: No, if overflow isn't visable, min size = 0
# [17:14] <dael> ...: if it is, min size is min content
# [17:14] <bkardell_> what fantasai said makes sense
# [17:14] <dael> dbaron: So TabAtkins said it backwards?
# [17:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
# [17:14] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:14] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [17:14] <dael> dbaron: Makes more sense to me
# [17:14] * sylvaing_ it's hard to follow without dollar signs and underscores
# [17:14] <dael> TabAtkins: I can justify anything you ask
# [17:14] <bkardell_> LOL tab
# [17:14] <dael> plinss: The only thing that makes me cringe is 0 acting like not 0
# [17:14] <dael> fantasai: we're not doing that
# [17:15] <dael> TabAtkins We'll switch to previous where min-width is auto and auto computes to 0 or this behaviour
# [17:15] <dael> plinss: So author says 0 it's 0
# [17:15] <dael> fantasai: Yes
# [17:15] <dael> plinss: Works for me. Anything else?
# [17:15] * bkardell_ says +1
# [17:15] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [17:15] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [17:15] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept proposal for issue 19
# [17:15] <Zakim> +??P10
# [17:16] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P10 is me
# [17:16] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Next was raised by rossen b/c it was where microsoft divereged and they want to change
# [17:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Wher eyou have a child insde the flex and it has a % height, if the flex has a def height it's normal
# [17:16] <dael> ...: If the flex item is auto height but stretched and flex box...
# [17:16] <dael> fantasai: We resolved this
# [17:17] <dael> fantasai: What Tab is desc. in this case it's the flex box's auto height, not a fixed size
# [17:17] <dael> ...: so % gets treated as auto basically
# [17:17] * krit fantasai :( wanted to know if we resolve differently this time :)
# [17:17] <dael> ...: The behaviour we're changing is that if you have an auto-height and the cross size is auto and items are stretched, you size based on contents as if children with % were auto
# [17:17] <dael> ...: Useing that height you fix that height and resolve % against auto computed
# [17:18] <dael> ...: disadgavtage is it adds another step
# [17:18] <dael> ...: advantage is you can do a lot of things that wouldn't work elsewise
# [17:18] <dael> ...: There's odd cases where it won't work out perfectly, so you can get weird overflow, but most will work fine
# [17:18] <dael> plinss: I said IE already impl this?
# [17:19] <dael> fantasai: Yes, we got a message saying IE and Geicko have these changes impl.
# [17:19] <dael> fantasai: These changes for issue 3
# [17:19] <dael> plinss: Any other opinions? Other impl?
# [17:20] <dael> plinss: Given lack of other opinoins, we should accept this behaviour
# [17:20] <dael> plinss: Other obj?
# [17:20] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept change for issue 3
# [17:20] <dael> fantasai: Next 2 are minor, just check in
# [17:20] <dael> ...: One is if float should compute to none on flex since they can't
# [17:20] <gregwhitworth> These resolutions will updated in the spec correct?
# [17:20] <dael> ...: We closed it no change.
# [17:20] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [17:21] <dael> ...: Any other opinions? Dholbert (sp?) liked how it was
# [17:21] <dael> fantasai: It computes to how it is, but ignored.
# [17:21] <dael> TabAtkins: you'll still get changed however the float does, but for your actual floating, nothing will happen b/c flexbox doesn't know what floating is
# [17:21] <dael> plinss: Any thoughts?
# [17:21] <bkardell_> seems good
# [17:21] * tantek scrolls up and looks for ultimatums
# [17:22] <dael> ??: In general I'm in favor of not changing. You may have to apply in cascade, so it's easier to impl if we don't change
# [17:22] <SimonSapin> s/??/SimonSapin/
# [17:22] <dael> s/??/simonsapin
# [17:22] * glazou rofl tantek
# [17:22] <dael> plinss: Anyone else?
# [17:22] * sylvaing_ tantek, nope. no ultimatums. no one hung up. boring day.
# [17:22] <dael> RESOLVED: No change, floats computes to specified value on flex items
# [17:22] * tantek sylvaing_ ok I better call-in then.
# [17:23] <dael> plinss: and 33?
# [17:23] <dael> fantasai: We had a q about if order affect counters. We looked at text and it seems clear it doesn't
# [17:23] * bkardell_ sylvaning, tantek - it's early yet
# [17:23] <astearns> +1 to order not affecting counters
# [17:23] * sylvaing_ reads dholbert as dilbert. super distracting.
# [17:23] <dael> ...: We think it should b/c order is purely visual and counters isn't visual
# [17:23] <dael> ...: We want to keep it away from purely visual. Any opinions?
# [17:23] * glazou hears super disturbing beeps in the background...
# [17:23] * sylvaing_ it's me backing up the meme truck
# [17:24] <dael> TabAtkins: This should be consistant with tab index when we talked about it with ITNI WG?
# [17:24] * Joins: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <dael> ???: I agree, it should be just visual
# [17:24] <dael> plinss: I have mixed feelings, but don't feel strongly
# [17:24] <dael> gregwhitworth: Can someone exlpain more?
# [17:24] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [17:24] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [17:24] <Zakim> +Plh
# [17:24] <SimonSapin> s/ITNI/I18N/
# [17:24] <dael> plinss: Question is if counter values are affected by the ordering, are they re-ordering the content?
# [17:24] * plh apologizes for being late
# [17:24] <gregwhitworth> LOL, I didn't ask for explanation, that was someone else
# [17:24] <dael> gregwhitworth: So is it they do or don't?
# [17:25] <sylvaing_> doe the flexbox order property behave like the grid order property?
# [17:25] <bkardell_> s/gregwhitworth/bkardell
# [17:25] <Zakim> +??P11
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Counters go by dom order, not rearranged order. The only affect is on layout itself
# [17:25] <gregwhitworth> LOL, I'm not talking
# [17:25] <tantek> zakim, ??p11 is tantek
# [17:25] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [17:25] <dael> plinss: There was IRC q about grid order. Same thing?
# [17:25] <gregwhitworth> Perfect
# [17:25] <sylvaing_> THEN SHIP IT
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. They're identicial.
# [17:25] * bkardell_ wonders if anyone will ever recognize him :(
# [17:25] <dael> plinss: So they beaviour is the same
# [17:25] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [17:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Right
# [17:25] <dael> plinss: Other opinions?
# [17:25] * tantek is also +1 on MT for TPAC.
# [17:26] <gregwhitworth> sounds great!
# [17:26] <TabAtkins> s/ITNI/a11y/
# [17:26] <Zakim> +??P21
# [17:26] <dael> plinss: It does seem it could be surprising if I reorder and counter numbers don't change, but we could add a prop later to control that.
# [17:26] <abinader> Zakim, ??P21 is me
# [17:26] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [17:26] <dael> plinss: any object?
# [17:26] <dael> RESOLVED: No change for issue 33
# [17:26] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-cr-2012
# [17:26] * glazou could the person cooking in the background stop that ?
# [17:27] <dael> fantasai: This is the DoC
# [17:27] * glazou flushing waters now ???
# [17:27] * TabAtkins Cooking, or bathing in a waterfall?
# [17:27] <dael> ...: 2 issues we closed are 3 and 19 which are red. The last two are orange we jsut resolved.
# [17:27] * bkardell_ ...unless you're making enough for everyone
# [17:27] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-cr-2012#issue-9
# [17:27] <dael> ...: Other non-green things, we closed 2 issues, one from Kenny Wu, issue 19.
# [17:27] * sylvaing_ i'll take a mimosa, thx
# [17:27] <dael> s/19/9
# [17:27] <dbaron> s/Wu/Lu/
# [17:28] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-cr-2012#issue-9
# [17:28] * glazou thinks tap dancing during csswg conf calls should now be forbidden
# [17:28] <dael> fantasai: There's also an issue on should negative margins iincrease space, that's issue 10. We said no, if you have too many negatives that's your fault
# [17:28] <fantasai> dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-cr-2012#issue-9
# [17:28] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-cr-2012#issue-9
# [17:28] * sylvaing_ but tap dancing during f2f meetings should be mandatory
# [17:28] <dael> fantasai: There was another issue about changing line item to flex start, we said no.
# [17:28] <dael> fantasai: That's b/c it's too late to change something that significant.
# [17:28] <dael> fantasai: Anyone want to go over these with more detail?
# [17:28] * glazou reminds sylvaing that AC-Reps were on stage to sing in AC meeting tokyo
# [17:29] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [17:29] <dael> plinss: Doesn't sound like it.
# [17:29] <dael> ...: Do we want res for those rejected?
# [17:29] * dauwhe sylvaing: this is CSS. Only line dancing and the box step are allowed.
# [17:29] <dael> fantasai: Maybe. We have 9 and 10, so we just need the initial value of the line items
# [17:29] <dael> plinss: Any opinions? Or are we happy with editors discression?
# [17:30] * sylvaing_ dauwhe: fine. then I'm taking my dancing moves to the WHATWG.
# [17:30] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept decision or editors for initial values item
# [17:30] <gregwhitworth> I'm always wondering if I should talk or not
# [17:30] <dael> fantasai: So I suggest we take flexbox to LC
# [17:30] * glazou sylvaing you prefer live tap dancing, admit it...
# [17:30] <dael> ...: There's significant changes.
# [17:30] <dael> plinss: Any obj to LC?
# [17:30] * sylvaing_ wonders where fantasai is
# [17:30] <gregwhitworth> He asks a question but everyone stays quiet...
# [17:31] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/#changes
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think we mentioned it, but there's significant dif in changes if there's any questions
# [17:31] * sylvaing_ or is that Tab?
# [17:31] * fantasai is in the kitchen
# [17:31] <tantek> zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:31] * fantasai muted now
# [17:31] * bkardell_ seconds moving the tap dancing specs to WHATWG
# [17:31] * astearns dauwhe break dancing should also be acceptable
# [17:31] <Zakim> tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (21%), ??P6 (9%), glazou (29%)
# [17:31] * glazou was right, fantasai was cooking
# [17:31] * sylvaing_ astearns +1
# [17:31] <dael> plinss: How long a LC period?
# [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: 3 week or maybe longer?
# [17:31] <dael> fantasai: I'd go with 4. there's complex changes and another week shouldn't b a problem.
# [17:32] <dael> plinss: Everyone else okay with 4?
# [17:32] * fantasai no, not cooking, just sitting at the counter
# [17:32] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd prefer 4 weeks
# [17:32] * fantasai hasn't had breakfast yet even
# [17:32] <dael> RESOLVED: Take Flexbox to LC with a 4 week period
# [17:32] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Bert/
# [17:32] <dael> plinss: Where are we with the test suite?
# [17:32] <dael> plinss: Existing test will need to be changed?
# [17:32] * dauwhe sylvaing: a dancing standard sounds like more fun than a merely living standard
# [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: If there's ones around min-size they'll need to be fixed. I can check
# [17:32] <dael> plinss: Thanks. ANy sense on coverage of test suite?
# [17:33] <dael> ...: We good or do we need more?
# [17:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we'll need more
# [17:33] <dael> fantasai: I can almost promise we need more
# [17:33] <dael> plinss: Anyone have tests that haven't been contributed?
# [17:33] <dael> plinss: According to existing we have 2 passes for everything
# [17:33] <dael> TabAtkins: That's way not value
# [17:33] <dael> s/value/valid
# [17:33] <dael> plinss: I know, but in therory we could go the rec
# [17:34] * dbaron should check if there are other mozilla tests that could be imported, although there are a decent number already imported
# [17:34] <dael> ??: Has anyone looked at Opera tests?
# [17:34] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/operasoftware/presto-testo/tree/master/core/standards/css3/flexbox
# [17:34] <dbaron> s/??/SimonSapin/
# [17:34] <dael> plinss: Anyone have time to do that?
# [17:34] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [17:34] * fantasai dbaron, will probably need to re-import after changes from min-size issue
# [17:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll get around to it if no one else does
# [17:34] <dael> bkardell_: I'm sure I can help too.
# [17:34] <dael> ...: TabAtkins and I can coordinate where needed
# [17:35] <dael> plinss: Thanks. Anything else for flexbox?
# [17:35] <zcorpan> https://github.com/operasoftware/presto-testo/search?q=flexbox&ref=cmdform
# [17:35] <gregwhitworth> greg is the "..." I guess
# [17:35] <dael> fantasai: Can we pub next tuesday?
# [17:35] * bkardell_ did not say that...
# [17:35] <gregwhitworth> LOL
# [17:35] <dael> bert: If you promis it's up to date
# [17:35] <glazou> s/TabAtkins/$--_Tab-Atkins_
# [17:35] <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth did
# [17:35] <dael> fantasai: WE can have it by tomorrow
# [17:35] <dael> bert: Okay.
# [17:35] * sylvaing_ greg, dael is learning our voices...not easy to pick up voices of people you don't know
# [17:35] <dael> fantasai: We just need to deal with open issues where we just resolved
# [17:35] <gregwhitworth> Woohoo
# [17:35] <Zakim> + +37684aaff
# [17:35] <dael> Topic Variables Syntax
# [17:35] <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
# [17:35] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [17:36] * sylvaing_ can we read the thread aloud for the next 5 hours?
# [17:36] * tantek Zakim, who is making sarcasm?
# [17:36] * Zakim I don't understand your question, tantek.
# [17:36] <dael> TabAtkins: right now variables are declared...custom prop are var-prefix
# [17:36] * sylvaing_ changing syntax -> we must be at Last Call
# [17:36] <dael> ...: Other custome things, var- isn't apropriate, but I want consistant
# [17:36] <dael> ...: previous draft at last F2F used _ to indicate custom
# [17:37] <dael> ...: That was valid ident, but CSS wasn't likely to invalde.
# [17:37] * sylvaing_ likes --
# [17:37] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
# [17:37] <dael> ...: There was another suggestion of -- to indicate custom b/c _ was ugly, but that distinguished from vendor.
# [17:37] * astearns likes --
# [17:37] <dael> ...: I'm fine with either. -- is okay for all custom in the future, but _ is okay too
# [17:37] * fantasai also likes -- over _
# [17:37] <dael> ...: We need to decide today b/c I promised heycam I wouldn't delay past this week
# [17:37] <SimonSapin> +1 for --
# [17:37] * sylvaing_ and if you don't like -- I hang up
# [17:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Any other thoughts or suggestions?
# [17:38] * tantek "double dash" sounds like a running race.
# [17:38] <dbaron> I prefer -- over _; don't care about -- vs var-
# [17:38] <bkardell_> double dash requires a parser change, can we make sure we're all agreed on that
# [17:38] <astearns> for those who like symmetry, a convention could be --namespace--prop-name
# [17:38] <zcorpan> there was a suggestion on the mailing list to use "custom-" as prefix.
# [17:38] <dael> plis: I think some people were suggesting -;
# [17:38] <tantek> ok with -- but some editors autocorrect that to —
# [17:38] <dael> TabAtkins: nothing outside ascii
# [17:38] <tantek> just FYI
# [17:38] <zcorpan> was custom- ruled out?
# [17:38] <fantasai> s/-;/mdash/
# [17:38] * sylvaing_ my mail editor transformed -- to an em-dash so *that* was not a suggestion
# [17:38] <tantek> nothing outside ASCII7?
# [17:39] <dael> glazou: I think -- is okay b/c - is vendor prefix. It does make sense since it's already an extension
# [17:39] * tantek sylvaing_ LOL - totally predicted that.
# [17:39] <dael> ??: -- does require parse change?
# [17:39] <fantasai> tantek, if your *code* editor is autocorrecting to emdash, you've got a problem in a lot of places
# [17:39] <dael> TabAtkins: It changes some for ident, but heycam said that wasy okay
# [17:39] <dael> TabAtkins: The only way there could be ambiuity in existing syntax is if someone by a negative next to a vendor prefix.
# [17:39] <tantek> fantasai, my code editor is BBEdit and it always does what I mean :)
# [17:40] <dael> ...: That's the only way you could have an ambiguity and I don't think that exists.
# [17:40] * zcorpan has not got a reply
# [17:40] <dael> plinss: Real risk is people using that to comment out.
# [17:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Worst case is they suddenly have defined an extra custom
# [17:40] <tantek> SGML comments in a style sheet? That's highly unlikely. Ahem. ;)
# [17:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Only negative ident is a -n syntax and that doesn't come into play
# [17:40] * glazou thinks tantek is trolling a lot lately ;-)
# [17:41] * tantek glazou it's not trolling if you ;) oh right, you also ;) ok got it. :)
# [17:41] <dael> TabAtkins: So zcorpan wondered if custom dash ahs been ruled out. No, but I'd prefer short then longer.
# [17:41] <astearns> for those wanting a custom- prefix, you could use --custom--prop-name
# [17:41] <dael> ...: It would work, but I like 2 charater over 7
# [17:41] <dael> zcorpan: Fine by me.
# [17:41] <fantasai> s/custom dash ahs/custom- has/
# [17:41] <dael> plinss: So the -- would be valid within ident?
# [17:41] <sylvaing_> astearns, do you need the second --?
# [17:42] <astearns> don't need it
# [17:42] <sylvaing_> --custom-something
# [17:42] <astearns> I just like symmetry :)
# [17:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, but now it marks it as custom. You could do -- inside a custom-ident today
# [17:42] * bkardell_ likes the double dash... I thought it was dead because of parser changes
# [17:42] <dael> plinss: Any opinions? I'm hearing a lot of people like the --
# [17:42] * bkardell_ votes <3
# [17:42] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [17:42] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [17:42] <dael> plinss: Any obj to --?
# [17:42] <tantek> ++ for --
# [17:42] <dael> ???: Is there any issue between that and HTML?
# [17:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Only is you're ramming it against and then it's wrong
# [17:43] <MaRakow> s/???/MaRakow/
# [17:43] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:43] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [17:43] <dael> dbaron: If -- inside var-, does ti begin with double or have it removed?
# [17:43] * tantek finds http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/mixed/comments-evil.html for some -- fun --
# [17:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Either is okay. I had removed it b/c the double var looks dumb, but I'm fine with either approach
# [17:43] <dael> dbaron: It makes more sense to keep it.
# [17:43] * zcorpan --(foo)
# [17:44] <sylvaing_> --(--(--(foo)))
# [17:44] <antonp> s/double var/double-dash on var/
# [17:44] <dbaron> s/dbaron/bkardell/
# [17:44] <dael> s/dbaron/bkardell
# [17:44] <TabAtkins> var(--foo)
# [17:44] * glazou waits for var------------foo
# [17:44] * bkardell_ glazou, needs more $
# [17:44] <dael> bkardell_: If what goes inside var, it suggests that anything could be in var, but if it's there it suggests only custom can be in var
# [17:44] <dbaron> s/bkardell_/hober/
# [17:44] * tantek what bkardell_ said
# [17:45] <dael> TabAtkins: We're not allowing arbitarty properties.
# [17:45] * hober yup
# [17:45] <dael> plinss: Sounds like current is -- as previx, but not within the var
# [17:45] <hober> --foo: var(foo)
# [17:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with that.
# [17:45] <dael> hober: I think it makes sense
# [17:45] <TabAtkins> hober: That's an invalid variable!
# [17:45] * hober :)
# [17:45] <tantek> TabAtkins could you type a quick example?
# [17:46] <glazou> s/hober/glazou
# [17:46] <dael> plinss: Okay. That could have been worse
# [17:46] <dael> RESOLVED: Use -- prefix to define var
# [17:46] <TabAtkins> Sure: div { --foo: blue; color: var(foo); }
# [17:46] <dael> plinss: We'll haev to make the syntax change.
# [17:46] <dael> plinss: Who will do that?
# [17:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Me
# [17:46] <tantek> that does look reasonable
# [17:46] <tantek> thank you TabAtkins - the example helps
# [17:46] <dael> fantasai: We also talked about var shorthand to reset all variables. Does that mean we have a -- shorthand?
# [17:47] * tantek RESET ALL THE VARIABLES! (paging sylvaing_ meme train)
# [17:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Good question. I'm not prepared.
# [17:47] <dael> hober: Any reason not to leave that to version 2?
# [17:47] <dael> TabAtkins: This is in version 2
# [17:47] <hober> s/hober/bkardell_/
# [17:47] * hober --: inherit; /* oh god what does this mean */
# [17:47] * tantek agrees with glazou, defer for now
# [17:47] <dael> glazou: Maybe we need to defer since heycam needs to know tonight.
# [17:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [17:47] * sylvaing_ will-change: --;
# [17:47] <dael> ???: let's make sure -- is available to higher items
# [17:47] * glazou sylvaing LOL
# [17:48] <dael> fantasai: We have all, let's do --all
# [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Or all--
# [17:48] <SimonSapin> s/???/SimonSapin/
# [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Anyway.
# [17:48] * bkardell_ lets to @#%@#%all!!!!
# [17:48] <tantek> var { --var:#000; color: var(var); }
# [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: From SimonSapin questions, if -- a valid ident. Maybe?
# [17:48] <SimonSapin> s/available to higher items/a valid identifier/
# [17:48] <Zakim> -krit
# [17:48] <dael> glazou: It means you can do --: something
# [17:48] <sylvaing_> can you have transition: var(foo) 1s;
# [17:48] <sylvaing_> I guess
# [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't want it to define a valid prop since you need something in var
# [17:48] <dael> glazou: Speaking of ugly, _ is better then that.
# [17:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I think -- shouldn't be a valid custom prop, but maybe a valid ident.
# [17:49] <dael> ...: The change we have now, where -- is a valid ident now, it's a simple change.
# [17:49] * tantek agrees with TabAtkins and is ok with leaving such detail to the editor's discretion.
# [17:49] <sylvaing_> so, is ---- the -- custom property?
# [17:49] <abinader> so "----foo: blue; color:var(--foo); } is valid?
# [17:49] <zcorpan> font-family: --, serif;
# [17:49] <dael> ...: So I say let it be a valid ident, but not a custom prop name
# [17:49] <dael> plinss: I guess I'm okay with that.
# [17:49] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [17:49] <TabAtkins> sylvaing_: Um, yes. Yes it is.
# [17:49] <SimonSapin> sylvaing_, abinader, yes
# [17:49] <sylvaing_> uh oh
# [17:49] <dael> plinss: So we'll leave -- as a valid ident.
# [17:50] <abinader> SimonSapin: ack!
# [17:50] <dael> plinss: So with syntax in CR, will we need to take it back to LC?
# [17:50] <dael> TabAtkins: At some point, yeah.
# [17:50] <dael> Topic: CSSNamespaceRule
# [17:50] <fantasai> I'm... not sure -- should be a valid ident
# [17:50] <TabAtkins> __ is a valid ident too.
# [17:50] <TabAtkins> Which would have meant that var(_) is valid.
# [17:50] <dael> glazou: This is about namespace rules that are triggering and acception. It's the same as attributes for namespace rule.
# [17:51] <dael> ...: That's an editor issue, you create something b/c a typo and you want to fix it and you can't.
# [17:51] * tantek "the namespace URI is bogus", go on...
# [17:51] <dael> ...: I'm not sure if there's anything to discuss now, but I'd like to affirm from impl that haven't replied, is there strong ressitance?
# [17:51] <dael> glazou: If you can't create namespace rules, you're blacked from creating documents and that's a major editor issue
# [17:51] * Joins: MaRakow_ (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [17:51] <dael> glazou: And the object model where you can't create or modify, it's really not needed.
# [17:52] <dael> zcorpan: There were issues in ML like what happens when namesapce declaration is removed.
# [17:52] <dael> TabAtkins: CSS is delcarative. If you add or remove, fontfamily that uses it will be altered.
# [17:52] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [17:52] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [17:52] <dael> ...: It seems reasonable that removing a namespace alters things
# [17:53] <dael> glazou: And I think this is a different between what the affect is and what the text is. If we instert a rule and say it's valid, than the whole style sheet becomes valid, that's right
# [17:53] <dael> zcorpan: There's a diff between namespaces and fonts because font name doesn't cause dlaration to be dropped
# [17:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I was about the say same as zcorpan. Namespace rules are diff b/c they affect syntatic validity of other rules
# [17:54] <dbaron> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
# [17:54] <dael> glazou: But you create a XHTML for epub and you want an SVG and style it in embedded stylesheet, you cannot create a namespace in the stylesheet
# [17:54] <dael> dbaron: Unless you mess witht he style sheet text.
# [17:54] <dbaron> s/dbaron/TabAtkins/
# [17:54] * astearns dbaron is sniping all of my s/foo/bar/ entries today
# [17:54] <zcorpan> We could change how CSS Namespaces work and let selectors with undeclared prefixes not be dropped on the floor during parsing?
# [17:55] <dael> glazou: So you have to do a major hack and reinterpret the whole style sheet anyway so this is the same.
# [17:55] * sylvaing_ thinks of using namespaces as driving under the influence: yes, you may have a bad time *but what were you thinking???*
# [17:55] <dael> TabAtkins: You could do the same thing through text so changing the OM is fine.
# [17:55] <dael> dbaron You can mod through text, but when you do it you know you're invalidating pointers to the OM and you're req. style sheet to be reparsed
# [17:55] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:55] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [17:55] <dael> glazou: Yes. Exactly. That is an issue.
# [17:56] <dael> glazou: We won't decide something here, but I want everyone to know about this. I think we should continue the disucssion on the ML for a solution for at least online interfaces needing this
# [17:56] <dael> ...: Layout engines know about this and since this sin't insertable or stylable, no one cares about how it's represented.
# [17:56] * dbaron Zakim, unmute dbaron
# [17:56] * Zakim dbaron should no longer be muted
# [17:56] <dael> TabAtkins: dbaron can you elaborate on the effects?
# [17:57] <dael> dbaron: I think it's positive from impl. If you're doing it through text, the imp doesn't need to reparse while guar. internal structeres are same.
# [17:57] <dael> TabAtkins: I see what you're saying.
# [17:57] * dbaron Zakim, mute dbaron
# [17:57] * Zakim dbaron should now be muted
# [17:57] <zcorpan> i agree with dbaron
# [17:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I wonder if there's an atl. For legacy namesapce rules are the same, but create an alt rule that when modified it kills the formatting and fills with new values.
# [17:58] <dael> ...: Affectively the same, but a more conveniant interface.
# [17:58] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [17:58] * Quits: MaRakow_ (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:58] * dbaron can't follow that at 1am
# [17:58] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:58] <dael> plinss: I'm not so sure, but I accept this is sticky, so back to the ML.
# [17:58] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [17:58] <dael> Topic: subgrid
# [17:58] <dael> plinss: We have 4 minutes.
# [17:58] <TabAtkins> document.styleSheets[0].namespaceMap.set("foo", "http://bar") <-- invalidates the entire stylesheet, triggers a reparse.
# [17:58] <dael> fantasai: I don't know if we can do this is 4 minutes, but I don't think we should drop for accessability reasons.
# [17:59] <dael> fantasai: I have examples explaining why
# [17:59] <fantasai> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/subgrid-markup/
# [17:59] <dael> fantasai: Basically it's a grid without subgrid we're encouraging people to strip stuff that gives the correct structure and get things to allign
# [17:59] * glazou won't work if it reparses. If it reparses, then you can't insert a created namespace rule
# [17:59] <astearns> another way of casting this is that we're not yet allowing grid usage for those cases
# [18:00] <dael> ...: Forms, if you markup forms, you'd have to strip things out in order to have things align. If you have section markup you have to strip that.
# [18:00] <dael> ...: It isn't great accessability and doesn't allow for fallback styles or things you'd want.
# [18:00] <dael> ...: People will do this and strip out their markup. THat's my prospective.
# [18:00] <dael> ...: But there isn't time for exact examples.
# [18:00] <TabAtkins> glazou: ON reparse, it would ignore all the @namespace rules, since they're already taken into account. Or maybe it automatically inserts/edits a @namespace rule into the stylesheet as appropriate.
# [18:00] <dael> plinss: Okay, how do folks feel.
# [18:00] <dael> ...: Are folks okay leaving subgrid in
# [18:01] <BradK> I often have control over CSS but it markup.
# [18:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree with what fantasai said, but no one has impl subgrid and we want to ship grid b4 we impl for subgrid
# [18:01] * sylvaing_ thinks there is much that can be done with Grid as it is
# [18:01] <BradK> So I am against things that require changing markup.
# [18:01] <dael> ...: I don't think it's useful to put in something that won't be impl before shipping
# [18:01] * bkardell_ agrees
# [18:01] * fantasai with who?
# [18:02] <dael> ...: WE can put this in later if it takes too long, but I think we should put it in level 2 and move it if things happen in that directions
# [18:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:02] <BradK> Also, hard to change markup on hundreds of pages.
# [18:02] <astearns> I'm in favor of stripping subgrid in order to enable the grid layout cases that can be done properly without subgrid
# [18:02] * bkardell_ agrees with shipping without subgrid in v1
# [18:02] <dael> fantasai: That makes sense for shipping, but it also leads to problems where they strip information. They'll keep doing that even when you ship subgrid. If we ship w/o subgrid, we'll get the problems.
# [18:02] <sylvaing_> if they don't stop doing the wrong thing then it's not clear what subgrid is fixing/how it helps authors
# [18:02] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't htink anyone will hold until we ship.
# [18:03] <sylvaing_> ++
# [18:03] * Zakim wonders where + is
# [18:03] <dael> ...: Microsoft shipped, we can ship in a few months, it won't delay in time for subgrid because the feature is too valuble.
# [18:03] <tantek> sounds like the we're stuck in a suboptimal nash equilibrium with everyone shipping without subgrid
# [18:03] <dael> TabAtkins: I get it, but realistically I can't agree.
# [18:03] * glazou is ++ valid?
# [18:03] <dael> plinss: Well, we're out of time.
# [18:03] * BradK has to go
# [18:03] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:03] <sylvaing_> likes subgrid but it just doesn't feel like a must-have to complete the feature
# [18:03] <dael> plinss: I don't think we'll agree in 20 sec so let's loop back and discuss over e-mail.
# [18:04] * tantek invites sylvaing_ and fantasai to their own cage match
# [18:04] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:04] <Zakim> -Plh
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: That's it for this week. Thanks everyone, we'll talk next week.
# [18:04] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:04] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:04] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:04] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:04] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:04] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [18:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:04] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:04] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [18:04] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:04] <Zakim> -??P6
# [18:04] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:04] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:04] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:04] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("g'night")
# [18:04] <Zakim> -koji
# [18:04] <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P6 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:05] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
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# [18:06] <TabAtkins> glazou: ++ is "valid", if by "valid" you mean "two DELIM tokens next to each other".
# [18:06] <TabAtkins> There is no place in CSS currently where that pair of tokens is valid, though.
# [18:08] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:08] * Quits: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:10] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:10] <Zakim> Attendees were krit, glazou, dael, gregwhitworth, plinss, SylvaIng, +1.917.207.aaaa, dauwhe, +1.206.675.aabb, astearns, dbaron, SimonSapin, BrianKardell, [Microsoft], MaRakow,
# [18:10] <Zakim> ... hober, fantasai, Bert, SteveZ, +1.281.305.aacc, +33.1.34.51.aadd, TabAtkins, koji, BradK, Plh, tantek, abinader, +37684aaff, antonp
# [18:10] <tantek> thank Zakim
# [18:11] <antonp> Zakim, aaff *was* antonp
# [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff *was* antonp', antonp
# [18:12] <antonp> I know, I know..
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/#defining-variables has a note on how var-0 needs to be referenced as var(\30). But the reason is just a technicality. Should we just parse var( [ <custom-ident> | <dimension> | <integer> ] [ , <any-value> ]? ) to work around this?
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> (same with --0 instead of var-0)
# [18:14] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: that seems like a reason to keep the dashes in var()
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: yeah, that’d work too
# [18:15] <zcorpan> --0x0x wouldn't be a dimension or an integer
# [18:15] <SimonSapin> though I like that not keeping them shows that var() doesn’t work with non-custom properties
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# [19:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: 0x0x is a dimension.
# [19:22] <TabAtkins> With the unit "x0x".
# [19:22] <TabAtkins> I'm ambivalent on the var() syntax issue.
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# [20:41] <fantasai> Bert, TabAtkins: I checked in the flexbox changes from today's call
# [20:41] <fantasai> mainly just removing issue text
# [20:42] <Bert> So the text is ready for me to copy?
# [20:42] <Bert> I won't do it tonight. Tomorrow, I think.
# [20:43] <fantasai> no problem
# [20:43] <fantasai> Just wanted to let you know it's ready :)
# [20:43] <fantasai> Thanks Bert!
# [20:43] <Bert> Thank you, fantasai!
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# [21:48] <TabAtkins> heycam|away, SimonSapin: I think I'm going to stick with "use the custom property name directly in var()", rather than stripping the prefix, as it avoids the "is the remainder an ident" issue.
# [21:50] <TabAtkins> I think that the potential confusion of "looks like I can put any property in there" is less than the potential confusion of "what do I put in var() if the custom property is named --0 or --- or [more weird examples]".
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# [22:20] <hober> TabAtkins: why don't we restrict the third character of custom property names to [a-z]? :)
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> Why not unicode?
# [22:20] <hober> "doctor, it hurts when i name my custom properties badly." "well, don't do that." :)
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> You ASCII fascist.
# [22:21] <TabAtkins> The issue is that the rules for what is "bad" are confusing.
# [22:22] <TabAtkins> --- is bad (you have to write var(\2d) ), but ---- is fine (you can write var(--)).
# [22:22] <TabAtkins> --0 is bad, ---0 is bad, but ----0 is fine.
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# [22:22] <TabAtkins> Any time authors have to remember the rules for precisely what makes up an ident, we're doing something wrong.
# [22:23] <hober`> TabAtkins: give me --💩 or give me death!
# [22:23] <TabAtkins> That's totally fine, actually.
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> You'll just write it as var(--💩), rather than var(💩)
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> (💩 is a perfectly valid ident token.)
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 20 00:00:00 2014

The end :)