/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-03-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 26 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:06] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  4. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: Should be all committed now.
  5. # [00:14] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  6. # [00:14] <heycam> TabAtkins, thanks!
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  25. # [08:27] <liam> markup error of the day ... the missing close tag... http://www.sewingandembroiderywarehouse.com/embtrb.htm gets interesting lower down the page
  26. # [08:28] <liam> wonder what the parser made of <width="25%" align="left"></font color> though
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  29. # [10:28] <krit> liam: nice one
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  45. # [16:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/26-css-irc
  46. # [16:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  47. # [16:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
  48. # [16:28] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  49. # [16:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  50. # [16:28] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0547.html'
  51. # [16:33] * Quits: fantasai (~fantasai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  58. # [16:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  59. # [16:55] <Zakim> +??P5
  60. # [16:55] <Zakim> +dael
  61. # [16:56] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  62. # [16:56] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  63. # [16:56] <Zakim> +krit
  64. # [16:57] <MaRakow> Zakim: Who is on the call?
  65. # [16:57] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  66. # [16:58] <Zakim> +astearns
  67. # [16:58] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  68. # [16:58] * astearns__ is now known as astearns
  69. # [16:58] <krit> Zakim, mute krit
  70. # [16:58] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
  71. # [16:58] <Zakim> +??P33
  72. # [16:58] <MaRakow> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  73. # [16:58] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  74. # [16:59] <Zakim> + +1.720.897.aaaa
  75. # [16:59] <glenn> zakim, aaaa is me
  76. # [16:59] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  77. # [16:59] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
  78. # [16:59] <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P33 is me
  79. # [16:59] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
  80. # [16:59] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  81. # [16:59] <Zakim> +??P4
  82. # [16:59] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  83. # [16:59] <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  84. # [16:59] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  85. # [16:59] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  86. # [16:59] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  87. # [16:59] <Zakim> +Plh
  88. # [16:59] <Zakim> +fantasai
  89. # [16:59] <Zakim> +plinss
  90. # [17:00] * astearns whenever I notice the MaRakow nick I visualize a pokemon
  91. # [17:00] <Zakim> +rhauck
  92. # [17:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  93. # [17:00] * glazou ROFL astearns
  94. # [17:00] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft.a has me
  95. # [17:00] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  96. # [17:00] <MaRakow> That's pretty much what I look like :)
  97. # [17:00] <Zakim> +hober
  98. # [17:00] <glazou> bwahaha
  99. # [17:00] * Joins: fantasai (~fantasai@public.cloak)
  100. # [17:01] * sylvaing_ astearns, that is exactly what Matt looks like.
  101. # [17:01] <Zakim> +BradK
  102. # [17:01] <zcorpan> Zakim: Who is on the call?
  103. # [17:01] <Zakim> +antonp
  104. # [17:01] <Zakim> +??P20
  105. # [17:01] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  106. # [17:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, ??P33, glenn, glazou, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, antonp, ??P20
  107. # [17:01] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
  108. # [17:01] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
  109. # [17:01] <Zakim> On IRC I see fantasai, antonp, BradK, gregwhitworth, glenn, MaRakow, dbaron, rhauck, dael, tkw, kawabata2, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, jet, anchnk, Ms2ger, plh, darktears,
  110. # [17:01] <Zakim> ... zcorpan, Hixie, ed, shepazu, hober, heycam|away, liam, achicu___, astearns, slightlyoff_, dfreedm, TabAtkins, krit, cbiesinger, jacobg_, mvujovic_, sylvaing_, Teoli_, abucur,
  111. # [17:01] <Zakim> ... cabanier_, leaverou, sylvaing, projector, alexmog, logbot, paul_irish, birtles, stryx`, lmclister__, plinss, Bert, gsnedders, SimonSapin, amtiskaw__, mihnea__, krijnhoetmer,
  112. # [17:01] <Zakim> ... decadance
  113. # [17:01] <Zakim> +dbaron
  114. # [17:02] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  115. # [17:02] * sylvaing_ there is a darktears nick, too. I assume they use XSL.
  116. # [17:02] <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P33 is me
  117. # [17:02] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  118. # [17:02] * astearns http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Marowak_%28Pok%C3%A9mon%29
  119. # [17:02] <Zakim> +??P58
  120. # [17:02] * zcorpan wonders why Zakim ignores him
  121. # [17:02] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  122. # [17:02] * glazou astearns that’s for next w3cmeme ?-)
  123. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> zakim, p33 is zcorpan
  124. # [17:03] <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'p33'
  125. # [17:03] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  126. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> zakim, ??p33 is zcorpan
  127. # [17:03] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  128. # [17:03] * sylvaing_ is impressed by astearns' pokemon knowledge
  129. # [17:03] * zcorpan TabAtkins thx
  130. # [17:03] <dael> glazou: Let's get started
  131. # [17:03] <tkw> Hello, I'm kawabata. I'm on the phone, but don't know how to notify Zakim.
  132. # [17:04] * sylvaing_ sound is awful
  133. # [17:04] * sylvaing_ understood this was about molly but couldn't grok what it was about
  134. # [17:04] * hober it's not just you
  135. # [17:04] <glazou> let me change microphone
  136. # [17:05] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  137. # [17:06] * sylvaing_ much better sound; you still get cut off. fyi.
  138. # [17:06] <tantek> Zakim, who is on the call?
  139. # [17:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, glazou, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, BradK, antonp, ??P20,
  140. # [17:06] <Zakim> ... dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ, ??P58
  141. # [17:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
  142. # [17:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
  143. # [17:06] * sylvaing_ tab has three echos
  144. # [17:06] <tantek> I hear tab echo also
  145. # [17:06] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  146. # [17:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  147. # [17:06] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  148. # [17:07] <Zakim> +glazou.a
  149. # [17:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  150. # [17:07] <tantek> I'm either ??P20 or ??P5 - I have no idea
  151. # [17:07] * tantek tries hanging up
  152. # [17:07] <dael> glazou: I have an extra about Seoul
  153. # [17:07] <Zakim> -??P20
  154. # [17:07] <Zakim> -BradK
  155. # [17:07] <dael> ...: The meeting with Korean gov't.
  156. # [17:07] <tantek> so apparently I was ??P20
  157. # [17:08] <dael> ...: They ask us if we can do 3 talks about CSS WG and future of CSS tech
  158. # [17:08] <dael> ...: I'm willing to do the first about how we work.
  159. # [17:08] <dael> ...: I noticed astearns and Dave Kramer said they'd talk if needed.
  160. # [17:08] * sylvaing_ +1 to astearns talk about pokemons
  161. # [17:08] <dael> ...: Are they still willing?
  162. # [17:08] <dael> astearns: I am
  163. # [17:08] <dael> glazou: Can you mssg me about what you'd talk about?
  164. # [17:08] <dael> astearns: Yes.
  165. # [17:08] <dael> glazou: That goes for Dave, who isn't here.
  166. # [17:08] <Zakim> +BradK
  167. # [17:09] <dael> glazou: That's all from me. Any other extras?
  168. # [17:09] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0822.html
  169. # [17:09] <dael> Topic: Rename extent/measure to block-size/inline-size
  170. # [17:09] <dael> SimonSapin: Just a con't of the previous?
  171. # [17:09] <Zakim> +koji
  172. # [17:09] <dbaron> s/SimonSapin/??/
  173. # [17:09] <dael> SimonSapin: Not much came from thread, but we can go with straw. I'm fine with any options.
  174. # [17:09] <dael> fantasai: What are the options?
  175. # [17:10] <dael> ??: I think it was length.
  176. # [17:10] <fantasai> block/inline-size, block/inline-extent, block/inline-length
  177. # [17:10] <glazou> s/??/TabAtkins
  178. # [17:10] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone want another options? So there's size, extent, or length (above)
  179. # [17:10] <fantasai> concerns with size were mostly about size being perceived as 3D
  180. # [17:10] <dael> ...: I think the concerns were mostly about size being preceved as #d
  181. # [17:10] <Zakim> -??P5
  182. # [17:10] <dael> ...: With length it was just we use it everywhere for all kinds of things
  183. # [17:10] <Zakim> -??P58
  184. # [17:11] <fantasai> concerns with length were about <length> and "length" being used al over the place
  185. # [17:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. We do use size for 1D in several specs. At least I do.
  186. # [17:11] <dael> TabAtkins: That's all I have to say. I'm happy to poll
  187. # [17:11] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  188. # [17:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, antonp, dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ,
  189. # [17:11] <Zakim> ... glazou.a, BradK, koji
  190. # [17:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has MaRakow
  191. # [17:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
  192. # [17:11] <dael> fantasai: That's a summary of people's thoughts. Did I miss anything?
  193. # [17:11] <dael> glazou: We can do a straw poll with these three
  194. # [17:11] <dael> glazou: Let's do that. Microsoft?
  195. # [17:11] <Zakim> +Lea
  196. # [17:11] <dael> glazou: MaRakow and gregwhitworth
  197. # [17:11] <sylvaing_> what's the question?
  198. # [17:12] <dael> ??: I'm not sure. I want to discuss with rossen
  199. # [17:12] <fantasai> Straw poll: inline/block- [size|extent|length|abstain]
  200. # [17:12] <dael> glazou: Question is block/inline size, length, or extent
  201. # [17:12] <Zakim> +??P10
  202. # [17:12] <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow/
  203. # [17:12] <tantek> Zakim, ??P10 is tantek
  204. # [17:12] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  205. # [17:12] <dael> MaRakow: I'd have to abstain until I hear from rosse
  206. # [17:12] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  207. # [17:12] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  208. # [17:12] <astearns> size > extent > length for me
  209. # [17:12] <dael> tantek: I don't have enough info to quantify. I think we're in Tab's pocket.
  210. # [17:12] <fantasai> extent > size > length for me
  211. # [17:12] * tantek "tab's bucket"?
  212. # [17:13] <dael> glazou: krit?
  213. # [17:13] <tantek> dael, that wasn't me ;)
  214. # [17:13] <krit> abstain
  215. # [17:13] * krit is on mute, sorry
  216. # [17:13] <Zakim> +??P67
  217. # [17:13] <dael> ??: Abstain
  218. # [17:13] <leaverou> abstain, as I just joined the call
  219. # [17:13] <tantek> who said tab's bucket/pocket?
  220. # [17:13] <dael> astearns: I like size
  221. # [17:13] <gregwhitworth> tantek: I meant that I don't really care
  222. # [17:13] <dael> zcorpan: abstain
  223. # [17:13] <gregwhitworth> LOL
  224. # [17:13] <SteveZ> extent > size > length for me
  225. # [17:13] <dael> glenn: extent
  226. # [17:13] <krit> s/??/sylvaing_ /
  227. # [17:13] <tantek> dael: s/tantek/gregwhitworth
  228. # [17:13] <BradK> I was in the elevator just now. I prefer length
  229. # [17:13] <dael> fantasai: extent
  230. # [17:13] <dael> plinss: abstain
  231. # [17:13] <tkw> Zakim, +??P67 is tkw
  232. # [17:13] <Zakim> sorry, tkw, I do not recognize a party named '+??P67'
  233. # [17:13] <plh> abstain
  234. # [17:14] <rhauck> abstain
  235. # [17:14] <plh> (couldn't find the unmute button fast enough, sorry)
  236. # [17:14] <rhauck> ditto
  237. # [17:14] * hober glazou is pretty echoy
  238. # [17:14] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
  239. # [17:14] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
  240. # [17:14] <antonp> *not* length
  241. # [17:14] <dael> hober: slightly prefer extent, but rather abstain
  242. # [17:14] <dael> antonp: length
  243. # [17:14] <antonp> s/length/NOT length/
  244. # [17:14] <dael> dbaron: prob size, though not strongly
  245. # [17:14] <dael> TabAtkins: size
  246. # [17:14] <dael> SteveZ: extent
  247. # [17:14] * sylvaing_ from the depths of Tab's pockets, Microsoft says...
  248. # [17:15] <dael> bkardell: length or size
  249. # [17:15] <dael> koji: size
  250. # [17:15] <dael> tantek: abstain
  251. # [17:15] <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
  252. # [17:15] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
  253. # [17:15] <dael> glazou: myself, size
  254. # [17:15] <dael> krit: abstain
  255. # [17:15] <krit> Zakim, mute krit
  256. # [17:15] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
  257. # [17:15] <BradK> S/bkardell/bradk
  258. # [17:15] <dael> glazou: Did I miss anyone?
  259. # [17:15] <gregwhitworth> sylvaing: LOL.
  260. # [17:16] <dael> glazou: That's tough.
  261. # [17:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  262. # [17:16] <dael> fantasai: It occurs to me that we might at some point have prop with these thigns so go with easiest for authors.
  263. # [17:16] * astearns split the middle - inline-size and block-extent :)
  264. # [17:16] <gregwhitworth> sylvaing: it was also bucket (essentially category) not pocket
  265. # [17:16] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  266. # [17:16] <dael> ...: I prefer extent for vocab, but from prop names size is easier
  267. # [17:16] <dael> TabAtkins: That makes sense to me
  268. # [17:16] <antonp> +1 to what fantasai said
  269. # [17:16] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  270. # [17:16] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  271. # [17:17] <fantasai> s/thigns/names/
  272. # [17:17] <sylvaing_> actually liking astearns compromise...
  273. # [17:17] * dbaron was assuming that it would eventually be exposed to authors
  274. # [17:17] <dael> glazou: So a lot of people are saying extent. Any obj against extent?
  275. # [17:17] <fantasai> s/from prop names size is easier/for property names, size is easier for authors to relate to/
  276. # [17:17] <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai switched to size
  277. # [17:17] <dael> glazou: Sorry, size. Any obj against size?
  278. # [17:17] <fantasai> s/vocab/vocab within specs, easier to keep things straight/
  279. # [17:17] <dael> RESOLVED: Rename to block-size and inline-size
  280. # [17:17] * BradK likes that size is only 4 letters
  281. # [17:17] <dael> Topic: CSS Scoping
  282. # [17:18] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  283. # [17:18] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  284. # [17:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Fromt he naming convo. Last week fantasai worked with me and demetri.
  285. # [17:18] <dael> ...: We came up with names we're all happy with, right?
  286. # [17:18] <dael> fantasai: I think they're better. They're a good starting point. I'm not 100% sold
  287. # [17:18] <dael> ...: I think it's better than what was before.
  288. # [17:18] <dael> TabAtkins: I didn't want to start and have you hate them.
  289. # [17:19] <dael> TabAtkins: In general, we ended up agreeing the pseudo-elements make sense.
  290. # [17:19] <dael> ...: so shadow combinator is not a pseudo. Just like adder, it doesn't add boxes, jsut structure
  291. # [17:19] <fantasai> s/adder/attr/
  292. # [17:19] <fantasai> s/attr/::attr/
  293. # [17:19] <dael> ...: So children of shadow-root and treated and childreno f dom
  294. # [17:19] <dael> ...: The content combinator is not a pseduo as well. Same threatment for children
  295. # [17:20] <dael> ...: We're leaving shadow-deep. We don't like it as pseduo and it's just a powerful decendant combinator. However, now there isn't shadow, we're just calling it deep
  296. # [17:20] <dael> ...: We don't love the name
  297. # [17:20] <dael> fantasai: This combinator that they envision isn't just through shadow-tree, it's also a reg. decentant combinator which will grab actual and shadow decendants
  298. # [17:20] * tantek "super descendant combinator"!
  299. # [17:20] * krit TabAtkins: How much time do we have to decide about the name before it is shipping?
  300. # [17:21] <dael> ...: So it makes sense it shouldn't be pseduo in this case.
  301. # [17:21] <dael> ...: So removing shadow from name made it clear it worked for reg. tree children
  302. # [17:21] * glazou TabAtkins can you please speak slower?
  303. # [17:21] <dael> ...: TabAtkins suggested that if we do ascii we use triple child
  304. # [17:21] <fantasai> a >>> b
  305. # [17:21] <dael> TabAtkins: The idea is we could do an alias for decendant so you could do a double >> and for deep it would be a >>>
  306. # [17:21] <gregwhitworth> I like combinators
  307. # [17:22] * glazou tantek don’t tempt him…
  308. # [17:22] <dael> TabAtkins: It's an issue in the draft, but otherwise we're okay with what we have
  309. # [17:22] * zcorpan a >_> b
  310. # [17:22] * fantasai :)
  311. # [17:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Ancestor psedo which was identical to host, we changed to host-context. This makes it tighter and more clear about variation
  312. # [17:22] * dbaron wonders if this proposal is written down somewhere
  313. # [17:22] <dael> ...: Expresses relationship in a more general fashion since this is for themeing purposes
  314. # [17:22] <fantasai> s/Ancestor psedo/:ancestor() pseudo/
  315. # [17:22] * tantek glazou - I'm waiting for the phrase "super descendant combinator" to show up in a Selectors draft....
  316. # [17:23] <dael> ...: So we not have 2 pseduo, one combinator, and 2 pseduo-classes
  317. # [17:23] * tantek glazou - and then the CSS Squirrel comic to go with it
  318. # [17:23] * glazou tantek and the kickback from the community after that ?-)
  319. # [17:23] <dael> ...: Hopefully this si more harmonious with WG desire, so we're hoping for approval.
  320. # [17:23] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/#selectors
  321. # [17:23] * tantek appreciates the progress on this subject
  322. # [17:23] <dael> fantasai: I think it's a good starting point and I'd like to talk about draft overall and what concerns people have
  323. # [17:23] <dael> ...: Pull those concerns into the draft and get concensus to work and give us something to work off of
  324. # [17:24] <dael> TabAtkins: um hum
  325. # [17:24] <dael> glazou: Ok
  326. # [17:24] <dael> fantasai: If no one has comments, I'd like to go over what we did to draft
  327. # [17:24] <dael> fantasai: We took the shadow-style mod that TabAtkins drafted and expanded scope
  328. # [17:24] * astearns dbaron: if you were asking about >> and >>> it's issue 2 in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
  329. # [17:24] <dael> ... we pulled in regions draft that astearns had removed and added scope styles that didn't have a defined place
  330. # [17:25] <dael> ...: We put it all in the same draft and names it CSS Scoping (working title)
  331. # [17:25] <fantasai> dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
  332. # [17:25] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
  333. # [17:25] * dbaron was asking about the whole thing
  334. # [17:25] <dael> fantasai: You can scroll to the table of contents to see what's there
  335. # [17:25] <dael> ...: ONly thing new is we define scoping and added @scope and we mostly have an issue on @global vs other ways to handle use-cases
  336. # [17:26] * astearns dbaron the whole thing should be in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/#shadow-dom
  337. # [17:26] * dbaron yep
  338. # [17:26] <dael> ...: It links to appropriate areas of specs. We'll have to add font-face as an issues. There's shadow-styling, and than there's regions pseudo
  339. # [17:26] <dael> ...: WE want to expand to regions columns, fragments, and hope that'll be def. in the same sections.
  340. # [17:26] <dael> ...: So what does the WG think, are there issues, can we pub officially in the WG?
  341. # [17:27] <fantasai> s/issues/issues we should call out in the draft/
  342. # [17:27] <hober> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  343. # [17:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, [Microsoft], krit (muted), SGalineau, astearns, zcorpan, glenn, fantasai, Plh, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft.a], hober, antonp, dbaron, TabAtkins, SteveZ,
  344. # [17:27] <Zakim> ... glazou.a, BradK, koji, Lea, tantek (muted), ??P67, [Microsoft.aa]
  345. # [17:27] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
  346. # [17:27] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has gregwhitworth
  347. # [17:27] <dael> ???: I think it's great you added regions, but in seattle we said we'd do page-styling as the first frag. So I'm assuming that this section gets worked into page-styling
  348. # [17:27] <dael> fantasai: yes, we didn't touch technical text, we did an into. The idea is define page-styling primarily and we'll get the rest almost for free.
  349. # [17:28] <dael> ???: Right, okay.
  350. # [17:28] <astearns> s/???/astearns/
  351. # [17:28] <fantasai> fantasai^: For right now, it's just a copy-paste of your stuff.
  352. # [17:28] <Zakim> -??P67
  353. # [17:28] <dael> fantasai: Anyone else have anything they want to say?
  354. # [17:28] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  355. # [17:28] <Zakim> tantek was already muted, tantek
  356. # [17:28] * tantek likes to mute himself apparently.
  357. # [17:28] <gregwhitworth> So much silence today
  358. # [17:28] * Joins: DeblynPrado (~deblyn@public.cloak)
  359. # [17:28] <dael> fantasai: Okay. So I propose we add an issue for handling global rules like font-face to scoping
  360. # [17:29] <dael> ...: I would like to get an opinon from the WG if you like @scope and if we can add officially
  361. # [17:29] * sylvaing_ tantek, good think muting is not ref-counted
  362. # [17:29] * sylvaing_ you'd be in trouble
  363. # [17:29] * tantek wonders if you remute yourself enough times, does Zakim impose a vow of silence on you.
  364. # [17:29] <Zakim> +??P19
  365. # [17:29] <dael> TabAtkins: All @scope does is take mechaninism from style-scope and lets you paint it into a style sheet
  366. # [17:29] * Quits: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak) ("")
  367. # [17:29] <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P19
  368. # [17:29] <Zakim> ??P19 should now be muted
  369. # [17:29] <dael> fantasai: I figured it would be good to have syntax so you don't have to scatter style throughout your document
  370. # [17:30] <fantasai> @scope #selector { <stylesheet> }
  371. # [17:30] <dael> fantasai: It looks like above
  372. # [17:30] <dael> dbaron: I'm worried this might change perf. because it would encourage authors to use them at a finer level
  373. # [17:30] <tkw> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  374. # [17:30] <Zakim> +tkw; got it
  375. # [17:30] <dbaron> s/perf./the performance tradeoffs we make when implementing scoped styles/
  376. # [17:31] <dael> TabAtkins: That is true. The use-case for scoping in style sheet can be solved largly with nesting. The big differencec is it changed how the cascade works.
  377. # [17:31] <dael> ...: It's useful, but you don't want to apply it all the time. We can say not in CSS and just focus on the nesting
  378. # [17:31] <dael> fantasai: I think we can add an issue explaining that this makes it easier, but would impact optimization.
  379. # [17:31] <fantasai> s/but/so/
  380. # [17:31] <dael> ...: That may or may not be good, but something to think about
  381. # [17:31] <tantek> interesting, it looks like scoped styles can potentially solve some of the SASS / LESS use-cases
  382. # [17:32] <tantek> can you nest @scope ?
  383. # [17:32] <fantasai> currently, yes
  384. # [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone in the WG object to this becoming an ED?
  385. # [17:32] <tantek> whoa cool
  386. # [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: and/or FPWD
  387. # [17:32] <dael> ...: Unless fantasai thinks there's something to do
  388. # [17:32] <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
  389. # [17:32] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
  390. # [17:32] <dael> fantasai: We need to add issues where there's concerns, but I'm happy to do FPWD
  391. # [17:32] * Quits: kawabata2 (~kawabata@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  392. # [17:32] <dael> glazou: TabAtkins you asked two questions, ED or FPWD
  393. # [17:32] <dael> TabAtkins: They're seperate.
  394. # [17:32] <tantek> @scope .container { @scope .subcomponent { img { height:1em; } } }
  395. # [17:33] <dael> glazou: FPWD is more formal than ED.
  396. # [17:33] <dael> ...: Any obj to ED?
  397. # [17:33] <tantek> I am for FPWD
  398. # [17:33] <dael> ??: Is there a way to add the issues and hold before FPWD?
  399. # [17:33] <dael> fantasai: Yes
  400. # [17:33] <dael> ??: I think we can wait a week and it's okay.
  401. # [17:33] <krit> s/??/krit/
  402. # [17:33] <dael> glazou: So you want a week to review? Is that okay?
  403. # [17:33] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
  404. # [17:33] <tantek> does that mean absent objections, FPWD in one week?
  405. # [17:33] <dael> glazou: So let's review in a week
  406. # [17:34] <dael> fantasai: I'm going to add performance and global rules issues. Are there others that people want called out?
  407. # [17:34] <krit> Zakim, mute krit
  408. # [17:34] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
  409. # [17:34] <BradK> Will nesting be in the same draft?
  410. # [17:34] <dael> ...: Anything we want people to know we're not sure about XYZ?
  411. # [17:34] <fantasai> no
  412. # [17:34] <tantek> I think if there is anything else people want called out, they have a week to email the list about it and get it noted in the draft.
  413. # [17:34] <dael> glazou: Apperently not.
  414. # [17:34] <tantek> Sound reasonable?
  415. # [17:34] <dael> fantasai: Okay. We'll aim to pub next thursday and put the issues in the draft. That gives a week
  416. # [17:34] <dael> RESOLVED: ED for CSS Scoping
  417. # [17:35] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
  418. # [17:35] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
  419. # [17:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Given that we have a call the day before, I'm okay waiting for the resolution next week
  420. # [17:35] <dael> ??: I think it's good because people on the list get a chance to know the ball is rolling.
  421. # [17:36] <fantasai> s/??/tantek/
  422. # [17:36] <dael> glazou: I can be 5 min at next telecon
  423. # [17:36] <dael> glazou: Everyone has an action to review and we decide.
  424. # [17:36] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JanMar/0260.html
  425. # [17:36] * tantek tried. :)
  426. # [17:36] <dael> Topic: Async Decision Making
  427. # [17:36] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  428. # [17:36] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  429. # [17:36] <dael> glazou: This is about using e-mail for concensus.
  430. # [17:36] <sylvaing_> Zakim, mute tantek a couple more times to be safe
  431. # [17:36] <Zakim> I don't understand you, sylvaing_
  432. # [17:36] <dael> ...: Everyone agrees about it I think. Is plh on the call?
  433. # [17:37] <tantek> Zakim, it's ok, sometimes I don't understand sylvaing_ either.
  434. # [17:37] <Zakim> I don't understand you, tantek
  435. # [17:37] <dael> ...: My question is should we, is it better in the charter. The decision policy of current charter says nothing and other groups using async has something in their charter
  436. # [17:37] <dael> ...: It doesn't stop us, it's just cleaner.
  437. # [17:37] <sylvaing_> Zakim, please mute tantek in IRC too
  438. # [17:37] <Zakim> I don't understand 'please mute tantek in IRC too', sylvaing_
  439. # [17:37] * Joins: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak)
  440. # [17:37] <dael> ...: Other than that, I agree that if you want e-mail based decision, plinss or I will send it. It's better done by co-chairs.
  441. # [17:37] <tantek> +1
  442. # [17:37] <dael> ...: plinss What do you think?
  443. # [17:38] <dael> plinss: I agree
  444. # [17:38] <dael> glazou: There's only one thing to remind people, we don't live in same time zone and have different schedules. One day isn't enough, we need to leave a reasonable time
  445. # [17:38] <tantek> zakim, unmute tantek
  446. # [17:38] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
  447. # [17:38] <dael> ...: So we can figure out general opinion of those reading
  448. # [17:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I think plinss had done 2 days, I think 48 hours is fine
  449. # [17:39] <dael> glazou: If it's for something settled, agreed with people in the ML, 2 days is okay
  450. # [17:39] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  451. # [17:39] <dael> tantek: I'm going to suggest a week b/c a lot of us travel to meetings and sometimes 48 isn't enough.
  452. # [17:39] <dael> ...: If it's urgent 48 is okay, but elsewise a week
  453. # [17:39] <astearns> +1 to week default, but can be decreased to a minimum of 48 hours
  454. # [17:39] * sylvaing_ agrees it's hard to think of a decision that required less than a week
  455. # [17:39] * zcorpan would prefer a week also
  456. # [17:40] <dael> fantasai: I agree. There's times I won't check for a few days. For simple admin 48 is okay to prove since we don'te xpect obj
  457. # [17:40] <dael> ...: If it's technical a week is good
  458. # [17:40] <tantek> thank you glazou
  459. # [17:40] * plh notes that webapps has or thinking to have 10 days
  460. # [17:40] <dael> glazou: It's okay. It'll be a week by default. plinss or I could use the twitter account
  461. # [17:40] <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
  462. # [17:40] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
  463. # [17:40] <dael> fantasai: I think you can CC the internal list too
  464. # [17:40] * TabAtkins sylvain, we've had things where we didn't get to the "publish as ??" agenda item in the call, and did a quick 2-day CfC on the list for it.
  465. # [17:40] <dael> glazou: As tantek said, we travel a lot anf twitter is easy on a mobile deivce
  466. # [17:40] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  467. # [17:41] <tantek> glazou: "sometimes we are all traveling and on a mobile device, where twitter is easy and email is hard"
  468. # [17:41] <dael> fantasai: I think you should still CC in internal list
  469. # [17:41] * sylvaing_ Tab, we're talking about a default. as fantasai said, admin things can use a shorter deadline.
  470. # [17:41] * tantek dael - please minute that, about email being hard on mobile :)
  471. # [17:41] <dael> glazou: So everyone agrees more call for concuncus on the ML, sent by the chairs, default it one week
  472. # [17:41] <dael> ??: If you use twitter, you should als to both lists.
  473. # [17:41] <dael> glazou: Absolutely
  474. # [17:41] <krit> Zakim, mute krit
  475. # [17:41] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
  476. # [17:41] <tantek> agreed, CfC should be on www-style
  477. # [17:41] <dael> ??: Okay
  478. # [17:41] * sylvaing_ asynch decision! next thing you know we'll be making promises, too
  479. # [17:41] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  480. # [17:41] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  481. # [17:41] <krit> s/??/krit/
  482. # [17:41] <dael> glazou: SimonSapin does this address all your concerns/questions?
  483. # [17:42] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure he's here.
  484. # [17:42] <tkw> Zakim, unmute tkw.
  485. # [17:42] <Zakim> tkw should no longer be muted
  486. # [17:42] * tantek of course Simon is not on the call - he asked for the async non-telcon consensus :)
  487. # [17:42] <tkw> Yes
  488. # [17:42] <dael> Topic: Ruby Anoynmous
  489. # [17:42] <dael> glazou: Can you summerize?
  490. # [17:42] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0392.html
  491. # [17:42] <dael> tkw: Summarize my proposal?
  492. # [17:43] <dael> tkw: The email I sent you, I'd like to change the section of CSS Ruby 2.2 to be smilar to HTML 5.
  493. # [17:43] <dael> ...: As you know the HTML5 is only for Ruby and frames. CSS Ruby isn't an interpretation of HTML Ruby so creating an anoyn box is HTML but not CSS
  494. # [17:44] <dael> ...: So HTML and CSS should be consistant, but it's not. It'd like to prop changing to work with HTML5
  495. # [17:44] <dael> fantasai: I looked at your message and agree with goals. I haven't looked at exact steps, but I agree we should fix
  496. # [17:44] * glazou sorry for echo, that’s tkw’s phone and nothing I can do about it
  497. # [17:44] <Zakim> -tkw
  498. # [17:44] <dael> tkw: This is technical, but in HTML5 Ruby base text should be intp. as Ruby, but anoyn box in Ruby does not.
  499. # [17:45] <glazou> tkw, we lost you
  500. # [17:45] * dbaron thinks this needs some time for not-in-teleconference review of the proposal
  501. # [17:45] <tkw> Sorry, it seems disconnected.
  502. # [17:45] <glazou> yes
  503. # [17:45] <tkw> I'll try reconnect
  504. # [17:45] <Zakim> +??P19
  505. # [17:45] <dael> fantasai: We're jsut missing text to deal with anoyn content which is an oversight on my part
  506. # [17:45] <tkw> Zakim, P19 is tkw
  507. # [17:45] <Zakim> sorry, tkw, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
  508. # [17:45] * dbaron Zakim, ??P19 is tkw
  509. # [17:46] * Zakim +tkw; got it
  510. # [17:46] <dael> glazou: I agree with dbaron we need offline review. We put this on ajenda so everyone was aware.
  511. # [17:46] <glazou> Zakim, ??P19 is tkw
  512. # [17:46] <Zakim> I already had ??P19 as tkw, glazou
  513. # [17:46] <dael> fantasai: I think this is an action on me
  514. # [17:46] <dael> glazou: fantasai can you sum.
  515. # [17:46] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  516. # [17:46] <dael> fantasai: We agree this should be fixed, there's an oversight on the spec. I think I need an action to fix this
  517. # [17:46] <dael> tkw: I think so. I want to help fix it with fantasai
  518. # [17:46] <dael> fantasai: I'll look at your text and check it's correct.
  519. # [17:46] <dael> fantasai: I'll pull it.
  520. # [17:47] <dael> tkw: Thank you
  521. # [17:47] <dael> glazou: Thank you
  522. # [17:47] * dbaron Zakim, mute tkw
  523. # [17:47] * Zakim tkw should now be muted
  524. # [17:47] <tkw> I muted.
  525. # [17:47] <dael> action fantasai look at the proposal for CSS Ruby
  526. # [17:47] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  527. # [17:47] <Zakim> -rhauck
  528. # [17:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-622 - Look at the proposal for css ruby [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-04-02].
  529. # [17:47] <dael> Topic: Transitions
  530. # [17:47] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0530.html
  531. # [17:47] * MaRakow thinks the minutes would be more interesting to read if the echo was also minuted
  532. # [17:47] <dael> glazou: First was dbaron
  533. # [17:47] <dael> dbaron: A few months ago we agreed this new model that we thought would work to explain how trans start
  534. # [17:48] <dael> ...: I know some google impl in chrome and found it seems to work
  535. # [17:48] <dael> ...: That says there's an open issue that I don't know how to explain and I'd like some feedback on how to
  536. # [17:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I talked with Shane yesterday, ultimatly we think we're pessamistic about being about to impl trans and animations as a hack over cascade
  537. # [17:49] <dael> ...: We're not sure what it should look like, but we don't think pure cascade would work
  538. # [17:49] <dael> ...: We'd need something like "and than do magic"
  539. # [17:49] <dael> ...: Shane is willing to figure out what needs to be done, not what we're currently doing. There will be edge cases better addressed by animations anyway
  540. # [17:49] <fantasai> Can we get an example of what doesn't work without magic?
  541. # [17:49] <dael> ...: Shane would like to help figure out trans and animations and how they interact. We don't think it'll be normal cascade
  542. # [17:50] <dael> ...: But we'll help
  543. # [17:50] <dael> dbaron: I don't htink this is related to cascades
  544. # [17:50] <dael> TabAtkins: b/ you're trying to figure out how to trigger, it still requires running cascade twice or doing dependability trackin,g but that might be a related issues, not this one
  545. # [17:50] <dael> dbaron: It would have been nice to have that sooner
  546. # [17:51] <dael> TabAtkins: I know. Sorry. Shane did want to help write and figure out what needs to be done, so I'll get him in contact with you so we can figure out what is reasonable
  547. # [17:51] <dael> dbaron: Okay
  548. # [17:51] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this subject?
  549. # [17:51] <dael> dbaron: Nope.
  550. # [17:51] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Dec/0317.html
  551. # [17:51] <dael> glazou: Next issue was from krit
  552. # [17:51] <krit> Zakim, unmute krit
  553. # [17:51] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
  554. # [17:52] * glazou very hard to hear krit...
  555. # [17:52] * glazou thinks krit is too far away from microphone
  556. # [17:52] <dael> krit: From amilinglist was a reservation about the transform. So the computed style..
  557. # [17:52] <dael> TabAtkins: He's prop we define the serialization to always use matrix or matrix3d
  558. # [17:53] <dael> dbaron: We can't do that for spec.
  559. # [17:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Comuter only
  560. # [17:53] <dael> dbaron: Or the resolved value.
  561. # [17:53] <dael> ...: That the resolved is matrix or matrix3d
  562. # [17:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now there's no diff between computed and used.
  563. # [17:53] <dael> ...: Do you think it's valuble to say it's the used value
  564. # [17:53] <dael> krit: Will there be a difference in the future?
  565. # [17:53] <dael> dbaron: I think it's computed vs/ resolved.
  566. # [17:54] <dael> TabAtkins: resolved is either computed or used depending on prop
  567. # [17:54] <dael> dbaron: Ah. We may want to add better APIs in the future and not want this to apply
  568. # [17:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Wouldn't with just serialization. Then it wouldn't necc. apply
  569. # [17:54] <dael> dbaron: Yes, but even inc. serialization
  570. # [17:55] <dael> krit: That's what I started on the ML. There's impl that depend on the matrix already
  571. # [17:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Given that everyone serializes the same way, we should spec it and work around it later if needed
  572. # [17:55] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  573. # [17:56] <dael> glazou: I think it would ease the pain in the case of matrix based computed value is we, ofifically as a WG we...we have an algorythm, but no code
  574. # [17:56] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  575. # [17:56] <dael> ...: If we do this it'll help web dev relying on matrix
  576. # [17:56] <leaverou> This (matrix decomposition) could be a part of the new CSSOM somehow as well
  577. # [17:56] <dael> krit: Two different issues. First, there's multi algorythms. The one in the spec has req. to change.
  578. # [17:56] <dael> ...: Even if we have one for CSS, there's still different use cases for decomposing.
  579. # [17:57] <dael> ...: API isn't great, but exposing the matrix into JS is better which we could do in the future
  580. # [17:57] <dael> glazou: ONly 6 components?
  581. # [17:57] <dael> krit: 6 or 16
  582. # [17:57] <dael> glazou: It doesn't seem like enough. I understand the multiple decompositions, but it's giving them one algorythm.
  583. # [17:57] <dael> glazou: matrix will be complex
  584. # [17:57] <dael> TabAtkins: There will be a default in DOMmatrix. It's not defined.
  585. # [17:58] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  586. # [17:58] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  587. # [17:58] <dael> krit: I'm not sure if we should. Decomposing algorythm is not ideal. There are different proposals that are new, but if we have API like DOMmatrix, you can create JS library to do it for you
  588. # [17:58] <dael> glazou: Okay, that solves my issues.
  589. # [17:58] <dael> ...: Do we need aresolution
  590. # [17:58] <dael> krit: Yes on serialization
  591. # [17:58] <dael> glazou: Any obj? dbaron?
  592. # [17:59] <dael> dbaron: So serialization of the computed value is where it changes to matrix?
  593. # [17:59] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay, but we may need to change it in the future
  594. # [17:59] <dael> glazou: Other comments?
  595. # [17:59] <dbaron> s/it/the mechanism that achieves that result/
  596. # [17:59] <dael> glazou: Obj?
  597. # [17:59] <dael> RESOLVED: Move to matrix for the serialization of the computed value for Transiations
  598. # [18:00] <Zakim> -hober
  599. # [18:00] <Zakim> -dbaron
  600. # [18:00] <dael> glazou: It's the top of the hour, ther remaining items will move to next call
  601. # [18:00] <Zakim> -Plh
  602. # [18:00] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  603. # [18:00] <Zakim> -krit
  604. # [18:00] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  605. # [18:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  606. # [18:00] <Zakim> -BradK
  607. # [18:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  608. # [18:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  609. # [18:00] * Parts: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (BradK)
  610. # [18:00] <Zakim> -glazou.a
  611. # [18:00] <Zakim> -Lea
  612. # [18:00] <dael> glazou: Thanks and talk to you next week.
  613. # [18:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
  614. # [18:00] <tantek> bye!
  615. # [18:00] <Zakim> -plinss
  616. # [18:00] <Zakim> -antonp
  617. # [18:00] <Zakim> -astearns
  618. # [18:00] <Zakim> -dael
  619. # [18:00] <Zakim> -glenn
  620. # [18:00] <Zakim> -tkw
  621. # [18:00] <Zakim> -tantek
  622. # [18:00] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
  623. # [18:00] <Zakim> -koji
  624. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  625. # [18:00] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, krit, SGalineau, astearns, MaRakow, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, glazou, Plh, fantasai, plinss, rhauck, [Microsoft], gregwhitworth, hober, BradK, antonp, dbaron,
  626. # [18:00] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, SteveZ, zcorpan, koji, Lea, tantek, Rossen_, tkw
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  651. # [20:01] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  681. # Session Close: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)