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- # Session Start: Wed Apr 02 00:00:01 2014
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [00:44] <heycam> TabAtkins, ping
- # [00:44] <TabAtkins> yo
- # [00:44] <heycam> hey
- # [00:44] <heycam> color: var(foo)
- # [00:44] <TabAtkins> var(--foo)
- # [00:44] <heycam> is that invalid at specified or computed value time?
- # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Parsing time.
- # [00:44] <heycam> without the dashes
- # [00:45] <heycam> ok
- # [00:45] <TabAtkins> As it doesn't correspond to the right production.
- # [00:45] <heycam> I think that's not what the spec requires currently
- # [00:45] <heycam> it refers to <custom-ident>
- # [00:45] <heycam> which allows an ident
- # [00:45] <heycam> *any
- # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Hm, you're right. Let me go tweak that.
- # [00:46] <heycam> thanks
- # [00:49] <TabAtkins> k, done. var() is now defined with the <custom-property-name> production.
- # [00:49] <heycam> cool
- # [00:49] <TabAtkins> I also clarified that you *do* check if the var() is valid, and fail the property if it isn't. Assuming they're valid, though, the rest of the property must be assumed to be valid until substitution time.
- # [00:50] <heycam> great, that was an earlier comment I made I think
- # [00:50] <heycam> that it wasn't clear when you do that var() syntax check
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- # [17:17] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0012.html'
- # [17:17] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0012.html'
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- # [17:17] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc
- # [17:17] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:17] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
- # [17:17] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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- # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +SGalineau
- # [17:58] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P16
- # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P21
- # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
- # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
- # [18:01] <SimonSapin> (probably)
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- # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is plinss
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- # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
- # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aabb
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn
- # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
- # [18:02] <dauwhe> Zakim, aabb is me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:02] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +rhauck
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
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- # [18:04] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
- # [18:04] <Zakim> + +37684aadd
- # [18:04] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +Plh
- # [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Let's start
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: First thing, any extra items?
- # [18:05] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
- # [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd like to talk about customidents
- # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
- # [18:05] <dael> Topic: Publications requests
- # [18:05] <glazou> http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-will-change/
- # [18:06] <dael> glazou: First is will-change
- # [18:06] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:06] <SimonSapin> s/customidents/<custom-ident>/
- # [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: We talked at last F2F. It hasn't been published, it's just on my github.
- # [18:06] <dael> ...: I'd like to publish it officially as a FPWD if possible
- # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aaee
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P58
- # [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd prefer FP, but if I can't get that ED is fine, but I'd like to just publish if possible
- # [18:06] <abinader> Zakim, ??P58 is me
- # [18:06] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
- # [18:06] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aaee is me
- # [18:07] <Zakim> +koji; got it
- # [18:07] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
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- # [18:07] * fantasai defers to dbaron ;)
- # [18:07] <dael> ??: I still think it's strange and wonder if there's better, but no obj. It might help solve my issues
- # [18:07] <fantasai> s/??/Bert/
- # [18:07] <dael> glazou: I still think it's wierd, but I'm oky to pub. I'd like to have this in the charter and reviewed, plh an updated?
- # [18:07] * sylvaing RESOLVED: will-change is weird but not weird enough to object to
- # [18:07] <dael> plh: We're reordering the list in the chater, but we can add this
- # [18:08] <gregwhitworth> LOL
- # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
- # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
- # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Microsoft, what fo you think?
- # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Ah, dbaron joined. We're discussing will-change from TabAtkins
- # [18:08] <dael> dbaron: I'm in favor.
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- # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Other browser vendors
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- # [18:09] <dael> ???: I'm not too keen, but go ahead and publish. Will-change just tells the browswer what's coming, right?
- # [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, it tells the browser a layer will change.
- # [18:09] <glazou> s/???/greg
- # [18:09] <dael> gregwhitworth: Go ahead and publish and we can hash it out later.
- # [18:09] <dael> ??: I think it's wierd, but go ahead. People are doing things to activate the DPU and this is better than that
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- # [18:10] <glazou> s/??/sylvaing
- # [18:10] <dael> glazou: It seems we agree on FPWD, yes?
- # [18:10] <dbaron> s/DPU/GPU/
- # [18:10] <dael> ???: Just a question, what does it require?
- # [18:10] <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
- # [18:10] <Zakim> +BradK
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- # [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll sometimes create stacking, but any other action is UI's discression and purely a hint
- # [18:10] <dael> glazou: Any objection?
- # [18:10] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: isn’t it a hint, rather than dictating anything?
- # [18:10] <sylvaing> It seems odd right now but is really no weirder than setting translateZ to force elements into their own layer on some browsers
- # [18:10] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for will-change
- # [18:10] <gregwhitworth> yeah
- # [18:11] <dael> action plh to add will-change to charter
- # [18:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-623 - Add will-change to charter [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2014-04-09].
- # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Next is scoping
- # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Same deal, krit requested an extra week before FPWD so we can get extra comments, haven't had any.
- # [18:11] <dael> fantasai: Is plh on the call?
- # [18:11] <dael> fantasai: plh can you approve css-scoping shortname?
- # [18:11] <dael> glazou: plh? He's probably away
- # [18:12] <dael> plh: Yes. yes I can.
- # [18:12] <dael> fantasai: The goal is to pub tomorrow so I have to submit away
- # [18:12] * fantasai RRSAgent pointer
- # [18:12] <dael> glazou: We have nothing from krit and we left a week.
- # [18:12] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
- # [18:12] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
- # [18:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
- # [18:12] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-11-34
- # [18:12] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for CSS-scoping with the short name Scoping
- # [18:12] <dael> Topic: follow up on Namespace
- # [18:12] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
- # [18:13] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MaRakow (19%)
- # [18:13] <dael> glazou: www-style ended up discussing behavoiur of OM when we insert in a style sheet
- # [18:13] * MaRakow still making noise?
- # [18:13] <dael> ...: I understand about reparsing the whole thing. I would have considered that a mistake 10 years ago, but didn't detect
- # [18:13] <fantasai> RRSAgent, pointer
- # [18:13] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-12-50
- # [18:13] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0502.html
- # [18:14] <dael> ...: I still think we can make an errata to allow name instertion b/c it'll be rare and won't impact rendering engine or webpages.
- # [18:14] <BradK> Still static
- # [18:14] <dael> glazou: I'd like to hear from other vendors and see if we can start an errata
- # [18:14] <Zakim> -MaRakow
- # [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. we can change to not throw away and changing namespace just makes it not normal.
- # [18:14] <dael> glazou: Others?
- # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: I think this is fine because we have selector fixed in OM anyway so propbly need to start as text and that's easy to reparse
- # [18:15] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure. Selector text is stored only in case of rule you reserved and you're not reserving a rule if prefix is unknown
- # [18:15] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [18:15] <dael> dbaron: So you're saying if prefix is changed, rule stays
- # [18:15] <glazou> sorry
- # [18:15] <glazou> coming back
- # [18:15] <dael> glazou: Rule stays but selects nothing
- # [18:15] <dbaron> s/changed/unknown/
- # [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: That single type selector selects nothing, not the whole thing.
- # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P16
- # [18:16] <dael> ...: So you could use it in a not expression and it would become null?
- # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: Ar eyou proposing it reads selectors in the OM?
- # [18:16] <dael> glazou: Change the validity rule of selectors w/ unknow prefix. They're currently invald, I say valid and selecting nothing.
- # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: Oky
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- # [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: So will the whole selector match nothing, or just that simple type selector
- # [18:17] <dael> glazou: The case where one thing invalidates a whole group is for validity
- # [18:17] <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules
- # [18:17] <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules with invalid selectors show up/
- # [18:17] <TabAtkins> :not(unknown|foo)
- # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: What I mean is this (above)
- # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: that should match nothing, but does that mean the whole selector matching nothing, or they type selector matches nothing?
- # [18:18] <dael> glazou: It should be consistant. So :not should select everything
- # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine, I just wanted to be clear
- # [18:18] <dael> ??: We just wanted it to be matches nothing at all
- # [18:18] <dael> glazou: It seems there's agreement on what we want if we want something
- # [18:18] <sylvaing> no objection
- # [18:18] <dael> ...: Is there consensus about writing and errata, which I can do
- # [18:18] <dael> ...: Any obj?
- # [18:19] <dael> glazou: THen I will do it and we'll change the behaviour of unknown prefixes.
- # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: I can make the edits to selectors and name space if needed.
- # [18:19] <dael> ...: Well, whereever it is.
- # [18:19] * plinss zakim, ?p16 is glazou
- # [18:19] * Zakim sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?p16'
- # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: I think it goes into selectors
- # [18:19] <dael> glazou: Not only that.
- # [18:19] * plinss zakim, ??p16 is glazou
- # [18:19] * Zakim +glazou; got it
- # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace should be invalid for other specs
- # [18:19] <SimonSapin> CSS qualified names can be used in (for example) selectors and property values as described in other modules. Those modules must define handling of namespace prefixes that have not been properly declared. Such handling should treat undeclared namespace prefixes as a parsing error that will cause the selector or declaration (etc.) to be considered invalid and, in CSS, ignored.
- # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace spec says...(above)
- # [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: This bit talks about other specs and it has a should for the specs
- # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P66
- # [18:20] <dael> glazou: this is a hole in all the specs and everything deives from a 14 year old spec. We'll have to mod in multiple locations.
- # [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay.
- # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: with updating both
- # [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: Modification of the validity of an unknown prefix in selectors and insertion of namespace rules
- # [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: You say insertion?
- # [18:21] <dael> glazou: They're currently throwing an exception if there's anything beyond insertion point?
- # [18:21] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
- # [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: So they're only allowed to insert where valid?
- # [18:21] <dael> glazou: Yes yes.
- # [18:21] * sylvaing wonders if there are other cases where we'd want selectors to stay valid and match nothing rather than dropping an entire rule
- # [18:21] <dael> glazou: We're not saying they're allowed anyhere
- # [18:21] <dael> s/anyhere/anywhere
- # [18:22] <dael> Topic: followup on subgrid
- # [18:22] <dael> glazou: Anything to say?
- # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Is fantasai there?
- # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
- # [18:22] <dael> glazou: And is she willing to discuss?
- # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I maintain position as started before.
- # [18:22] <dael> glazou: So that was short
- # [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: We brought it up so we can resolve one way or another. Subgrid in 1 or move to 2
- # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I'll obj if we punt
- # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: Does it make sense to mark as at-risk?
- # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure. It's accessability, not something nice
- # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: What do you mean accessability?
- # [18:23] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
- # [18:23] <SimonSapin> (once)
- # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Let's say you have a form with grid layout and in order to use it you remove strutural elements to make a list, you've removed the structural stff and now people can't understand without the grid
- # [18:24] <dael> ...: That stucture is gone and you had to remove it to use grid
- # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: You don't need to do it for flex
- # [18:24] <Zakim> +SteveZ
- # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: No. You may need extra spans and divs, but that's adding extra not removing
- # [18:24] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes, but that you need to alter your markup doesn't mean it doesn't have value
- # [18:25] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
- # [18:25] <SimonSapin> (twice more)
- # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: If we shift as-is people will strip their markup b/c they want grid, not caring about it working for non-visual consumers
- # [18:25] <dael> SimonSapin: So you establish grid isn't super-cool, there's still value
- # [18:25] <SimonSapin> (I give up :) )
- # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Even where you have something like a front-page, you'll still have problems. I have examples listed and they're common cases.
- # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This will be worse than what we have today
- # [18:26] <gregwhitworth> Can you link to the examples
- # [18:26] <dael> ...: Today with the layout hacks it's bad, but they don't stip things
- # [18:26] * glazou SimonSapin LOL
- # [18:26] <dael> sylvaing: I'm not sure stripping stuff is the only way
- # [18:26] <dael> ...: I've seem things added.
- # [18:26] <gregwhitworth> Of the accessibility problems
- # [18:26] <Bert> s/stip/strip/
- # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Point remians it's still complex and if we want to impl vefore shipping, it'll slow the feature
- # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: But if you don't you'll have a whole class of webaouthors learn without subgrid and they'll jsut keep doing it.
- # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: People will learn as time goes on and subgrid is easier so when it's there it'll be used
- # [18:27] <dael> glazou: You guys are disagreeing and I don't think we'll solve it in next 25 min.
- # [18:28] <dael> ...: I suggest we go to e-mail and we move-on.
- # [18:28] <dael> sylvaing: I think we should stay on use-cases and the before and after. WE shouldn't speculate on what people will do. Early adoptor will adapt.
- # [18:28] <dael> ...: If we fear people won't pick up a level 2 thing, we fear the benefits won't be obvious. Let's not speculate, let's look at use cases
- # [18:29] <dael> glazou: We have something from sylvaing on animations and one from SimonSapin
- # [18:29] <dael> Topic: Animations
- # [18:29] <dael> sylvaing: Let me pull them.
- # [18:29] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25107
- # [18:29] <dael> sylvaing: This should be the easier
- # [18:29] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
- # [18:29] <dael> ...: So this one is about the format of the string arguement for findRule() and deleteRule()
- # [18:30] <dael> ...: The spec said it's a # between 0 and 1, but that's only IE.
- # [18:30] <dael> ...: Everyone else never did that. Geicko, webkit,blink uses percentage.
- # [18:30] * dbaron thinks we may have resolved to change the spec before, too :-)
- # [18:30] <dael> ...: That's consistant with how you write it and how it's in the OM so it's more usable
- # [18:30] <dael> ...: So I think we should change to Geicko approach. I think IE can keep it, but everynoe should support %
- # [18:31] <dael> glazou: What about keywords from and to?
- # [18:31] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [18:31] <dael> sylvaing: They work. I think they match their corrisponding values everywhere.
- # [18:31] <glazou> GLARGL
- # [18:31] <dael> glazou: I support change
- # [18:31] <dael> dbaron: In geicko we use the same as appear on the stylesheet.
- # [18:31] <Zakim> +??P16
- # [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
- # [18:31] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [18:31] <dbaron> s/same as/same parsing that we do when they/
- # [18:31] <dael> sylvaing: So any concern from Microsoft?
- # [18:31] <TabAtkins> s/geicko/gecko/g
- # [18:32] <dael> gregwhitworth: Sounds reasonable.
- # [18:32] <dael> sylvaing: Anyone using IE needs to patch in the numbers, so as long as you guys support both it'll work
- # [18:32] <dael> ...: I think you want to keep the old one and add support
- # [18:32] <MaRakow> s/gregwhitworth/MaRakow/
- # [18:32] <dael> RESOLVED: Use percentage values for findRule() and deleteRule()
- # [18:32] <dael> sylvaing: That's one.
- # [18:33] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: use percentage values for key arguments and map from/to keywords to 0% and 100% respectively
- # [18:33] <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
- # [18:33] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0497.html
- # [18:33] <dael> sylvaing: This was also one of glazou issues. Clarifys keyframe rules when they get keys
- # [18:34] <dael> ...: Spec says if multi keyframe rules have same keyvalue the last one is accepted.
- # [18:34] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [18:34] <dael> ...: In the e-mail what we expect from the prose and the bwoswers is what the text says.
- # [18:34] <dael> ...: Gecko is doing interesting cascading in the rule. It's doing on a property basis.
- # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: I feel what gecko is doing is correct. We discussed this a few years ago and maybe res.
- # [18:35] <dael> sylvaing: I tried to look, but don't remember. Can you elaborate?
- # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: It's hard for me to switch this into my head
- # [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: One ex as to why it's better, if you're doing several loosly related animations and want to do all width at one point and backgrounda t a different and they land on same keyframe, it's nice to keep sep
- # [18:36] <dael> sylvaing: If you want to change the width on the keyframe and you don't lose the rest, though
- # [18:36] <dael> glazou: udnerstand usecase, but we have problem with object model.
- # [18:36] <dael> ...: When you find something from keyframe, you get one rule only
- # [18:37] <dael> sylvaing: That's another issue. Some of you questions, you cannot expect the OM to give you everything. When you look at browser you get a bunch of text you edit
- # [18:37] <dael> ...: We can talk about that with findRule() question
- # [18:37] <dael> glazou: I mentioned it since whatever you pick there's an OM change
- # [18:37] <dael> sylvaing: Maybe, but there might be other reasons to change
- # [18:37] * fantasai Bert, would you have time to set up css-scoping as FPWD after the call? It's prepped already prepped. Otherwise, I can send a zipfile
- # [18:37] <dael> ...: So only Gecko does thing right now. Sounds good to me, but it's a significant change and I'd like to hear from other vendors
- # [18:37] * fantasai Bert, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014AprJun/0011.html
- # [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I can ask about compt athoughs. I'm fine.
- # [18:38] * fantasai Bert, it passes pubrules
- # [18:38] <dael> glazou: Anyone from apple on call? I'd like to hear from them.
- # [18:38] <dael> sylvaing: IE too
- # [18:38] <dael> ??: For the OM question, I'd like to think about that more
- # [18:38] * Bert to fantasai: if it is easy as line-grid, no problem. :-)
- # [18:39] <dael> sylvaing: I'm less concerned about OM since there's so much compat issues. It's more that we're changing the concept so something may break. BUt there's a lot of breakage so we could talk to firefox
- # [18:39] <dael> glazou: Okay, so do you want an action to investage?
- # [18:39] <dael> action sylvaing investigate the opinons of other browsers
- # [18:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
- # [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-624 - Investigate the opinons of other browsers [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2014-04-09].
- # [18:39] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
- # [18:39] <dael> sylvaing: I have one question for webkit and blink engines, everyone agrees about appendRule, but they still have insertRule for legacy reasons
- # [18:40] <dael> ...: If they can fix it, that's awesome.
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll ask about compat.
- # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: You could add append to the old one
- # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: We can add. There's nothing wrong with that
- # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: It's more supporting both
- # [18:40] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25035
- # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
- # [18:40] * TabAtkins Le sigh. I have no idea how the spec ended up so different from the WK/Blink impl, when they were the first impl and wrote the spec.
- # [18:40] <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
- # [18:40] * fantasai Bert, but, you'll have to pull from Mercurial. dev.w3.org is 500ing and doesn't have the up-to-date copy :( :(
- # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: keytext prop again. It's handling values in the spec
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: It's also not compat. You have keytext for the rule and when you put something invalid Gecko doesn't do anything
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: Blink and IE throw and do no update
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: Webkit just applies it
- # [18:41] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
- # [18:41] <dael> sylvaing: So we have three possibility and they're all out there
- # [18:41] <dael> ...: Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion. Webkit seems silly, but I understand it.
- # [18:41] * Bert to fantasai: I normally look at Mercurial, but thanks for the warning.
- # [18:41] * fantasai Bert, OK, it finally loaded!
- # [18:42] <dael> glazou: I ended up doing the same tst and from editor view I'd prefer throwing
- # [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: So this interacts with two issues back
- # [18:42] <dael> glazou: Yes, you can set invalid and something existing
- # [18:42] <TabAtkins> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
- # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: So sylvaing e-mail is about the invalid?
- # [18:42] * fantasai Bert, oops, just a sec, got the wrong date!
- # [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: Let's keep the issues sep. So bogus values first.
- # [18:43] <dael> ...: What do we do if you put foobar as a keytext valid
- # [18:43] * fantasai thinks it's good April 1st wasn't a Thursday :p
- # [18:43] <dael> ...: I'm okay with antyhing, but Gecko doing nothing seems the worse since you don't know what happens
- # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: I didn't throw since the spec didn't say it, but it's a one line change
- # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: related, but should I make counterstyle rules throw?
- # [18:43] <dael> glazou: For consistancy, yes.
- # [18:44] <dael> glazou: So does anyone obj to throwing an error when keytext is invalid?
- # [18:44] <dbaron> throwing sounds fine as long as you say what exception to throw :-)
- # [18:44] <dael> sylvaing: That's the most common
- # [18:44] * TabAtkins SyntaxError, certainly?
- # [18:44] <dael> RESOLVED: Keytext on setting invalid value should throw
- # [18:44] <dael> sylvaing: You set a keytext to avalid value that already exists in rule
- # [18:44] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
- # [18:44] <dael> ...: What I've seen in browsers is that the rule is updated in place.
- # [18:45] * fantasai Bert, OK, should be all set for tomorrow!
- # [18:45] <dael> ...: Order is what's specificed and not effect.
- # [18:45] * fantasai Bert, thanks!
- # [18:45] <dael> ...: I guess I want to know what we would do...It's easier if you're not on Gecko model and you're not cascading
- # [18:45] <dael> glazou: I think we have to solve the older issue before that one
- # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: That okay. Sounds like a good F2F topic
- # [18:45] <dael> ...: Okay.
- # [18:45] * Bert thanks, fantasai, will install and check right this telcon.
- # [18:45] <dael> glazou: Anything else on animations?
- # [18:45] * fantasai great, thanks!
- # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: Let me see
- # [18:45] * Bert *after*
- # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: One more.
- # [18:45] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25034
- # [18:46] * fantasai note to dael, you can strip that entire side-conversation ;)
- # [18:46] <dael> sylvaing: This one about which rule gets found when you have duplicate keys.
- # [18:46] <dael> ..: You have 3 20% rules, so which do you pick.
- # [18:46] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
- # [18:46] <dael> ...: No compat. IE removes the one that applies
- # [18:46] <dael> ... Blinka nd Webkit do the first one first so they endup backwards.
- # [18:47] <dael> ...: Gecko is complex from cascade
- # [18:47] <dael> glazou: This also depend on order. We need a model before instructing the API
- # [18:47] <dael> sylvaing: I have one more, but it'll also depend on the discussion.
- # [18:47] <dael> sylvaing: I'll start a new thread on the ML and ask for specific compat feedback from rowser
- # [18:47] <dael> Topic: <custom-ident>
- # [18:48] <dael> SimonSapin: A few weeks ago we discussed a change to the values in the spec
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: We made a change and people disagreed on what the change should end up being
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: This is about what keyword should be disallowed to be custom-idents
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: Right now CSS-wide keywords are defaults for disallowed.
- # [18:48] <dael> ...: In addition anything that might be ambigous is disallowed
- # [18:49] <dael> ...: After I discussed with fantasai we thought it might be good to have the same rule for all custom-ident
- # [18:49] <dael> ...: It seems we don't have consensus on what behaviour should be
- # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Makes sense to exclude global keywords. For other case such as grdlines where in the definition they're unabm. but in use they're amb. I think the spec will have to call out explicitly
- # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can make a universal rule. If there's a more indirect connection between ambigous and invalid such as with grid, I think that will need to say so
- # [18:50] <dael> ...: We may want a note in one spec that other specs should consider those for invalid. One thing I'm not sure of is shorthands
- # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
- # [18:51] <dael> ...: It could be one thing is unamb in longhand, but amb in shorthand
- # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
- # [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: We can't do much generally anyway b/c we occationally make longhands into a shorthand
- # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
- # [18:51] <dael> ...: So if we make something that will automatically walk up the tree it might not work
- # [18:51] * glazou thinks TabAtkins ’s microphone input level is too high compared to others
- # [18:52] <dael> ...: If you use in longhand vs using in short hand, different values might be exluded.
- # [18:52] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0582.html
- # [18:52] <Zakim> -glenn
- # [18:52] <dael> ...: It might be okay to define a counter style in one place but not somewhere since it conflicts witht he keyowrd
- # [18:52] <Zakim> +glenn
- # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: Alternatively, we could have a rule where the shorthand unless otherwise said you parse from start to end and try your best so you would prioritize keyword over custom-ident
- # [18:53] <dael> ...: so style is found first and than we looka t custome-ident
- # [18:53] <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch with parsing issues like this that we've solved.
- # [18:53] <dael> ...: One is list style shorthand where two prop take a none value
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: So we have to allow two none. If you're parsing you can't find a none and decide. You find a none, count the number, and see if you have more nones than props that can take nones
- # [18:54] * glazou loves the simplicity of CSS parsing sometimes :-D
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: Similar for animations and transitions except worse.
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: Transition and animation accept arbitarty things and in Gecko we attempt to parse the other things first. Only if they haven't already been found
- # [18:54] <dael> ...: I think you can see animation easein easein
- # [18:55] <glazou> s/easein/ease-in
- # [18:55] <dael> ...: The first is timing, second is name and that makes dynamic changes messy.
- # [18:55] <dael> ...: And I dont know how interop that is, thought the list-style thing it interop
- # [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Do we just conclude exclude global keywords and discuss more about ambiguities on the list?
- # [18:56] <dael> glazou: I think that's a fair conclusion to the discussion
- # [18:56] <sylvaing> what happens with new global keywords?
- # [18:56] <dael> SimonSapin: If we can come up with a general rule, we can decide about line names
- # [18:56] <dbaron> s/than props that/than unspecified props that/
- # [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: WE can do that on the ML, that's fine.
- # [18:56] <dael> glazou: So we'll continue discussing this
- # [18:56] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this SimonSapin?
- # [18:56] <dael> glazou: So wwe have 4 minutes. Anything to discuss?
- # [18:56] <dael> fantasai: The que unit?
- # [18:57] <SimonSapin> s/If we can come up/If we can’t come up/
- # [18:57] <TabAtkins> q unit
- # [18:57] <dael> fantasai: There's a proposal on the ML about adding a que unit since that's common in japanse, but it didn't go anywhere
- # [18:57] <dael> ...: Since we have to pass through lc for values and units, so we want to add it?
- # [18:57] <dael> sylvaing: I don't htink there were any major obj except the usual suspects
- # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: So any opinions? I can just add it in
- # [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with adding it
- # [18:58] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm fine with adding.
- # [18:58] <dael> glazou: Okay. Anything else?
- # [18:58] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0302.html
- # [18:58] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/issues-cr-2013
- # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: We should publish new for values once we resolve the issues.
- # [18:59] <dael> glazou: I suggest we close for now. I'll miss the next call, but I'll talk to you next time.
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -SGalineau
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -dbaron
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -glenn
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -dauwhe
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -BradK
- # [18:59] <Zakim> - +1.281.305.aacc
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -antonp
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -dael
- # [18:59] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
- # [18:59] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
- # [18:59] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -abinader
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -??P66
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [18:59] <Zakim> -koji
- # [19:00] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
- # [19:00] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add q unit to Values and Units
- # [19:00] <fantasai> (consensus declared by plinss)
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Plh
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [19:00] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -rhauck
- # [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, SGalineau, glazou, +1.858.354.aaaa, SimonSapin, plinss, +1.917.207.aabb, glenn, dauwhe, gregwhitworth, fantasai, rhauck, Bert, +1.281.305.aacc, +37684aadd,
- # [19:00] <Zakim> ... Plh, antonp, abinader, koji, dbaron, BradK, [Microsoft], MaRakow, SteveZ
- # [19:02] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [19:02] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
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- # [19:32] <tantek> sorry to miss today! belated regrets - I'm at the W3C Web #Annotation workshop (yes that's the IRC channel for it)
- # [19:32] <tantek> (assuming IRC channels are case-insensitive)
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- # [23:21] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Bikeshed auto-generates the property index table at the end of specs, right? Could it link back to the property definitions?
- # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Does it not?
- # [23:21] <TabAtkins> If so, definitely. File an issue for me?
- # [23:22] <SimonSapin> is Writing Modes or Grid on Bikeshed?
- # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Grid is. I dont' think WM is yet, but it might be.
- # [23:22] <TabAtkins> I forget if I've converted it yet.
- # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it is.
- # [23:22] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/Overview.bs
- # [23:23] <SimonSapin> filed
- # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Me and Shane are collaborating on some Bikeshed upgrades right now. krit will be happy to hear we're adding more markdown features ^_^
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- # [23:53] * sylvaing must move css-animations to Bikeshed like, now
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- # [23:58] <SimonSapin> Emergency Bikeshedding as a service
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- # [23:59] <hober> SimonSapin: with Uber-like surge pricing every Wednesday at 9 AM PT
- # Session Close: Thu Apr 03 00:00:00 2014
The end :)