/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-16 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 16 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [09:24] <krit> fantasai: Hi. I sent a couple of emails to www-style to solve open issues after LC. Could you take a look again and be specific if or what you think should be changed? Thanks a lot in advance!
# [09:29] <krit> TabAtkins: by saying you don't want to fix RECs, you are actually an active participant on making the W3C look bad. Ditto with not wanting to leave CR.
# [09:29] <krit> TabAtkins: implementations hold back on implementing image() because there isn't even a test suite
# [09:30] <krit> TabAtkins: CR is just one step, but not the step where we should feel comfortable
# [09:30] <krit> TabAtkins: (we never should)
# [09:31] <krit> TabAtkins: If REC or not, fixing the spec is an ongoing process, if you think you are done once you have a REC you would do it wrong anyway
# [09:32] <krit> TabAtkins: versioning a spec still is an important part of the industry which does not just consist out of browser implementers
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# [10:07] <krit> plinss: the latest draft of the AB that I saw allowed normative references to texts that can be seen as specifications. It still requires the spec editor to judge if the referenced document is static and won't change. While the first point applies to WHATWG now, the later doesn't.
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# [16:36] <TabAtkins> krit: Make REC less of a hellhole of slow progress and bureaucracy, and I'll care more.
# [16:36] <TabAtkins> "Not wanting to leave CR" is not equal to "hates tests".
# [16:39] <TabAtkins> It's equal to "I want to be able to update the spec as necessary and prudent over time, without having to deal with a lot of Process crap that doesn't help anyone".
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# [16:52] <TabAtkins> I'm just super confused why you would possibly think that I think fixing the *isn't* an ongoing process. That's... pretty much my entire point in a nutshell, and precisely why I hold my stated position.
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# [17:19] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:19] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
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# [17:19] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-css-irc
# [17:19] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:20] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0171.html'
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# [17:25] <krit> TabAtkins: Scientific notations are not allowed in V&U while they are in CSS 2.2. Should that be fixed in V&U? http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-css3-values-20130730/#numbers
# [17:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [17:28] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#numbers refers to Syntax which does have scinot
# [17:28] <SimonSapin> but also defines "zero or more decimal digits ..."
# [17:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but the informal definition doesn't mention that.
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# [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:57] <dael> ScibeNick: dael
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P3
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P3 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.720.897.aaaa
# [17:58] <glenn> zakim, aaaa is me
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# [18:00] * sylvaing_ wonders whose voice that was...
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aabb
# [18:00] <TabAtkins> zakim, aabb is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P5
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P5 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:01] <SimonSapin> probably
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# [18:03] <gregwhitworth> Zakim ??P31 is me
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P31 is gregwhitworth
# [18:03] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
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# [18:03] * ChrisL zakim, mute me
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# [18:04] * glazou too but cannot mute himself eh
# [18:04] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:04] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:04] <dael> glazou:let's get started.
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: plinss isn't going to be here today. Any extras? I saw TabAtkins's
# [18:05] <dael> Topic: Tab's Extra Item
# [18:05] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P39
# [18:05] <dael> TabAtkins: The X unit says that if font metrics are impossible you can use a fallback, but ch doesn't have similar wording
# [18:05] <SimonSapin> s/X unit/ex unit/
# [18:05] <dael> ...: I jsut suggest we have similar wording that allows the fallback in the exact same cases
# [18:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj?
# [18:05] <SimonSapin> s/fallback/fallback of 0.5em/
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I saw ChrisL say he's okay
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# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Any other opinoins? Objections?
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: No one cares?
# [18:06] <fantasai> seems fine to me
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: No obj?
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# [18:06] <dbaron> I wouldn't want this fallback to happen too often, but it sounds ok
# [18:06] <dael> plh: There was an IRC comment that said it would be easier to just register ???
# [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: That seems inconcistant with the X unit
# [18:06] <glazou> s/plh/SimonSapin
# [18:07] <dael> plh: I don't really have an opinion
# [18:07] <glazou> s/register/not support the ch unit
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aacc
# [18:07] * glazou dael, that’s SimonSapin, not plh
# [18:07] <MaRakow> zakim, aacc is me
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# [18:07] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: If it means syntax error you won't know it's font sruff after parsing time. If it's something else you'll fail wierd so it may as well be as cose as possible
# [18:07] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay
# [18:07] <Zakim> +krit
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: Any obj?
# [18:07] <dbaron> s/X unit/ex unit/
# [18:07] <dael> RESOLVED: Default for CH unit is 0.5EM
# [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: Add -x/-y longhands to background-* properties
# [18:08] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0085.html
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: So several browsers, webkit blink have suppored backgroud-position x/y
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: There's been some debate on this but I believe the plano n record is that we're going to add both varients of names and have a mechanisim to decide whigh
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: That allows us to add both background-position and background-repeat x/y
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: So I thinkw e should add because authors rely on it
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# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it gets odd with size, but we can make it work. I'm not sure if there are others that need to be split, position, size and repeat
# [18:09] <Zakim> -glazou
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# [18:10] <dael> dbaron: I'm definitly in favor of it for background-position, but I'd like to see data on who supports the others, esp. size
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aadd
# [18:10] <dbaron> dbaron: ... b/c of the difficulties with cover and contain
# [18:10] <Zakim> +??P53
# [18:10] * glazou is back
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know if anyone does size, but webkit for repeat with some odd work arounds. I'm not sure if anyone else does, though.
# [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, ??P53 is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:10] <plh> q+
# [18:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aadd is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:10] <dael> ???: For IE we support it witht he value of repeat x and repeat y
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: They background repeat prop with those keywords?
# [18:10] <gregwhitworth> Yeah I'm testing background-position-x and that doesn't work in IE
# [18:10] <dael> ???: Right
# [18:10] <gregwhitworth> So webkit only
# [18:11] <plh> q-
# [18:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:11] <dael> ???: We don't support individual prop, just the one property with those values
# [18:11] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [18:11] <MaRakow> s/???/MaRakow
# [18:11] <Bert> q+ to say the reason for bg-x/bg--y was sprites, but that reason no longer exists.
# [18:11] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:11] <dael> koji: I think that esp. fantasai or someone from Mozilla was opposed in the past.
# [18:11] <sylvaing_> Bert, why does it no longer exist?
# [18:11] * glazou has a LOT of sound issues, sound goes to zero every 20 seconds
# [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [18:11] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: It was largely b/c concern about interact with logical version of prop and if that's sorted, and I think it might be, than there's not reason not to
# [18:12] <Zakim> + +33.1.34.51.aaee
# [18:12] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: It's a question of if this is compart with start and end keywords
# [18:12] <glazou> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: Plan is to support background position block and other features.
# [18:12] <dael> koji: We had to use adjust position?
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now position and repeat. Those are the two I'd like resolution on today
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I think we want more data on repeat
# [18:13] * sylvaing_ will offer beer for background-position-z
# [18:13] <dael> ...: Let's just position now
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> background-position-block/background-position-inline
# [18:13] * bkardell_ makes a mental note that asking zakim for the code is super handy... just spent 10 minutes trying to get it via email account
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: He asked who supported.
# [18:13] <dael> dbaron: So what are the values of repeat x/y?
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: yes/no?
# [18:13] * glazou bkardell_ eheh
# [18:13] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay with position and repeat
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> s/yes\/no/repeat and no-repeat/
# [18:13] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd liek aproposal on how we'll do logical directions
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I think this should be B&B 4 along with the logical keyowrds
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't want to delay to 4 since it's not real yet and both these prop have been supported for a long time
# [18:14] <dael> ...: position can get into 3's CR and repeat could likely too
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: I'd rather not add to 3. We've done it too much.
# [18:15] <dael> koji: So if we do 4 it should be in version 1
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: I think we should do this in 4 and people can support earlier.
# [18:15] <koji> s/koji/???/
# [18:15] <astearns> s/koji/krit/
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: x and y have been around for a long time.
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: We have a legacy prefix and clause
# [18:15] * sylvaing_ suspects 1/4 of our CRs is B&B3
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: So add background position and background repleat x/y?
# [18:16] <dael> plh: The reason to have these in the past was to quickly switch BG but now that we're using media segments, do we still need it?
# [18:16] * ChrisL hears breakup
# [18:16] <plh> s/plh/Bert/
# [18:16] <dael> s/plh/simonsapin
# [18:16] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:16] <fantasai> s/segments/fragments/
# [18:16] <krit> s/o if we do 4 it should be in version 1/o if we do it in 3 it should be in version CSS Masking 1 as well?/
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: No one supports media fragments yet
# [18:16] <fantasai> dbaron: Gecko supports it
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: They're used commonly
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: dbaron did you say gecko supports?
# [18:17] <dbaron> ... or we're very close to it
# [18:17] <dael> dbaron: I'm not sure we're close
# [18:17] * fantasai glazou, I have a follow-up to Bert's point
# [18:17] <Zakim> +??P4
# [18:17] <Zakim> -??P39
# [18:17] <dael> MaRakow: It'll be a while before people can depend on it
# [18:17] <glazou> q?
# [18:17] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <Bert> q-
# [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <sylvaing_> s/MaRakow/sgalineau
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# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: So one of the...this is different but in the images 4 draft we have a function that takes comma seperated list, but no one supports it
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# [18:18] <dael> ...: But there were various reasons to support. We marked comma seperated as at-risk and I think we should drop that.
# [18:18] <dael> ??: Webkit it is mostly the test suite that's missing.
# [18:18] <glazou> s/??/krit
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: I can work on that now that I know it's a thing
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: The test suite for what?
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Image function
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: I still think we should push comma to level 4 and figure out how it can interact
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Can we defer since that's tangential?
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: yes.
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: So from before, are the obj to background position and background repeat x/y in Levl 4?
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: I'm okay if we add logical keywords
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Sure.
# [18:19] <dael> glazou: Sounds like a compromise
# [18:19] <fantasai> s/keywords/keywords at the same time so we can make sure they work out correctly/
# [18:20] <dael> bert: I would like to have a follow-up resolution
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Okay
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Any obj to setting -x/-y to background-position?
# [18:20] <fantasai> s/bert/krit/
# [18:20] <dael> bert: I don't think we should add prop that make things confusiong for authors. They asked for position that's great, but if they don't want something else we shouldn't
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: I think browsers are impl the longhands
# [18:21] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:21] * krit is the perfect voice imitator
# [18:21] <dael> ???: For the background repeat we support repeat-x repeat-y because we thought of those as mutually exclusing. What would the both specify to repeat
# [18:21] <astearns> s/???/rossen/
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: That's a longstanding part of BG. Those values for position translate into longhand values.
# [18:21] * glazou thanks astearns
# [18:21] <dael> ...: Balckgroun-repeat-x becomes background-repeat-x-repeat
# [18:22] <dael> rossen: So when I spec that they both repeat, are you saying only one repeats?
# [18:22] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: That'st he repeat value. it has four values, repeat on either end
# [18:22] <Bert> s/ They asked for position that's great, but if they don't want something else we shouldn't/They can use position already, so unless there is a really strong use case, don't add more redundant properties/
# [18:22] <dael> Rossen_: Okay, than it's fine.
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: So any objection?
# [18:22] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <Zakim> -??P2
# [18:23] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:23] <dael> RESOLVED: background-position-x/y background-repeat-x/y approved
# [18:23] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:23] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:23] <dael> krit: Should we also do this for ???
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine either way
# [18:23] <astearns> s/???/masking/
# [18:23] <ChrisL> s/???/masking
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: Is there a use case?
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know
# [18:23] <kawabata> zakim, ??P2 is kawabata
# [18:23] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:23] <Bert> (Resolved to put a proposal in level 4, not to put it in the existing level 3, as far as I understood.)
# [18:24] <Zakim> + +44.203.575.aaff
# [18:24] <krit> s/???/masking level 1/
# [18:24] <dael> krit: There's prefixing so perhaps we need it for alignment
# [18:24] <glazou> Bert, correct /cc dael
# [18:24] <dael> krit: It can wait for masking 2
# [18:24] <florian> Zakim, I am aaff
# [18:24] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:24] * MaRakow also expects this was approved for L4 not L3
# [18:24] * astearns wanted Tab's "mnyeaugh" to be minuted
# [18:24] <dael> bert, thanks
# [18:24] <dael> Topic: Image Orientation for Backgrounds
# [18:24] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0149.html
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: This is something Boris posted
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd prefer for that to stay on list. Well, not syntax, but we can discuss idea
# [18:25] <SimonSapin> background-repeat/position: also, resolved to add logical directions at the same time
# [18:25] * sylvaing_ in retrospect "mnyeaugh" would have been an excellent prefix for experimental features
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone need refreser on idea?
# [18:25] * ChrisL this is the exif rotation thing?
# [18:25] <gregwhitworth> yes it would
# [18:25] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [18:25] <glazou> ChrisL, yes
# [18:25] * sylvaing_ did we resolve the previous issue?
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're familial with excess metadata, orientation can be whatever and some camera will record that.
# [18:25] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:25] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:25] * sylvaing_ never mind
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: So later it can be displayed however you held your camera
# [18:25] <sylvaing_> s/excess/EXIF
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: The web doesn't normally care, it jsut displays the same as in image. This would allow you to display how you took it.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Boris brought up where people were asking to auto-apply the rotation in the background. So the suggestion was to add this ti image function either as auto or as a keyword you can opt into
# [18:27] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:27] <dael> ChrisL: I think option 2 is better, first b/c some cameras get it wrong and sbecause some camera don't do it so people manually rotate.
# [18:27] <gregwhitworth> Not to mention it's possibly creates a huge compat issue
# [18:27] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:27] <dael> dbaron: I actually disagree b/c vast majority of cases, they want axis to be honored
# [18:27] <ChrisL> s/camera don/viewers don/
# [18:27] <dael> ...: If image always honors axis people will see it's wronga nd fix first so when we build new things we should honor
# [18:27] <dbaron> s/axis/exif/
# [18:27] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: IF we by default, should there be a way to turn it off?
# [18:28] <dael> ChrisL: There's lots of content such as JPEG where it's not honored. So we'd change exisiting webpages.
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: We're not changing existing because it's only if people use this new feature
# [18:28] <dael> ChrisL: That's what I mean by opt-in
# [18:28] <dael> dbaron: We want to say all the features of this new thing rotate.
# [18:28] <Bert> (url() contiunues to ignore EXIF, but image() honors it. Subtle, but might just work...)
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: So the conclusion is this is a feature we want and want to continue tech on ML
# [18:29] * ChrisL yay go for a resolution
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: We may have resolved. I'm okay if image() shoudl always respect axis metadata
# [18:29] <dael> dbaron: That's fine
# [18:29] <dbaron> that wasn't actually me, but I'm also fine with it
# [18:29] <dael> Bert: I think that's okay
# [18:29] <dael> florian: As long as it's contatined to image() it's fine
# [18:29] <ChrisL> \o/
# [18:29] * sylvaing_ RESOLVED: DO IT
# [18:29] <Bert> s/okay/okay, given that we don't have tests for it yet, anyway./
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Make the image() function always respect EXIF orientation metadata
# [18:30] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:30] <sylvaing_> always or will we ever want an override in image()
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: On that topic can we have the image() function drop comma seperation and decide if we want that level 4?
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm cool with that. I'd like fallback to interop better so let's do that
# [18:31] <dael> bert: Wait, then youc an't extend image later and attach mediaquery liek features like adding images.
# [18:31] <astearns> s/bert/krit/
# [18:31] <dael> ...: Youc an't do that later w/o commas
# [18:31] <BradK> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:31] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, glenn, dauwhe, Stearns, AH_Miller, SGalineau, TabAtkins, SimonSapin, Bert, fantasai, gregwhitworth, ChrisL, Plh, dbaron, MaRakow, krit, SteveZ, koji,
# [18:31] <Zakim> ... BrianKardell, glazou, ??P4, kawabata, florian, BradK
# [18:31] <Zakim> On IRC I see BradK, adenilson, florian, jet, kawabata, Rossen_, lmclister, SteveZ, koji, MaRakow, bkardell_, ChrisL, dael, glenn, dauwhe, gregwhitworth, Ms2ger, antonp, RRSAgent,
# [18:31] <Zakim> ... Zakim, glazou, AH_Miller, gsnedders, dbaron, plh, rodneyrehm, abucur, Garbee, arronei, renoirb, Teoli_, krit, mvujovic__, jacobg__, lmclister___, achicu___, TabAtkins,
# [18:31] <Zakim> ... cbiesinger_, dfreedm_, shepazu, liam, trackbot, Bert, ed, CSSWG_LogBot, Hixie, logbot, amtiskaw__, mihnea__, sylvaing_, heycam|away, decadance, SimonSapin, hober, cabanier__,
# [18:31] <Zakim> ... slightlyoff
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: We're not removing commas, just the list feature. We're recasting image() as petter url for images
# [18:31] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-css3-images-20120417/#image-fallbacks
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: We're dropping this featuer, but keeping image framents and solid color images
# [18:31] <dael> krit: But not comma sep. values, just one value, one string
# [18:32] <dael> ...: That's a big step. Wasn't iamge supposed to allow fallback features.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: That'st he internt, but we want to address in level 4.
# [18:32] <dael> ...: You may want to change which image due to supported, size of screen, and viasbility and there's no coherent solution.
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: Since we have those requirements when we designed fallback, we want to come up with a soluttion that makes it work together.
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: For now we know for sure we want axis metadata and solid color images to work as well as mediaqueries
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That's all straightforward and should stay in CR
# [18:33] <dael> krit: Do we need to rush or can we stay on ML
# [18:33] <dael> krit: You can get feedback so people that are interested can speak
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Are you impl?
# [18:34] <dael> krit: No, I know there's a patch.
# [18:34] <dael> krit: In general I don't feel confident resolving. Can we talk next week?
# [18:34] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:34] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:34] <dael> ???: Quick question, if you want to override you'd have to do it manually or is there override?
# [18:34] <glazou> s//??/sgalineau
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now you'd have to do URL, but I'm fine with a keyword
# [18:35] * fantasai override what?
# [18:35] * fantasai missed that
# [18:35] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0603.html
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> fantasai, EXIF orientation
# [18:35] <dael> Topic: Changing MediaQueryList to use events
# [18:35] * sylvaing_ override EXIF i.e. if you need to do that, do you use url() or would we some day add a flag to image()
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: The thing returned by the match function has a custom fallback for when they stop matching.
# [18:35] * sylvaing_ was clarifying the resolution which said image() would *always* respect EXIF
# [18:36] * fantasai ah, right. :) Yeah, i think just tossing in an <angle> into image() would do it
# [18:36] <dael> ...: The suggestion is to switch to using the event listener.
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: This is a very minor behaviour change if you're depending on specifics on how events vs callbacks are registered.
# [18:36] <dael> ...: I suspect that's rare
# [18:36] * sylvaing_ fantasai, an angle, really? So I could set 31.7deg? there is a use-case for that?
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: The benefit is this makes us more standard event style and reduces special case code.
# [18:36] * krit TabAtkins just to make sure, it is not an existing patch for WebKit that makes me careful on changing image() without thinking about it more.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Boris said there's no code, but Elliott from Blink said there's a lot of extra code to do this in Firefox, Webkit and Blink
# [18:37] <dael> ...: We'd liket o drop and use standard event proess
# [18:37] <dael> SimonSapin: If we're starting from scratch, sure, but this has been out
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/florian/
# [18:37] <dbaron> I don't know where this extra code in Firefox is.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: You can move cleanly to the event-base except for a few edge cases that are difficult anyway
# [18:38] <dael> ...: Only change is timing and if you register the same function multiple times if it gets called once or twice
# [18:38] <dael> florian: If it's that tiny, why is it so much code?
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: B/c it's re-impl a protion of what we do for events
# [18:38] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: With events we do a few lines of hookup code which works.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: From the thread I don't believe there were strong obj. Boris had minor obj b/c he said it was easy in code, but Elliott pointed out it wasn't.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Are there obj nw?
# [18:39] <BradK> sylvaing: I also question the use case for angle (something like [vertical | horizontal] seems better to me), but that's a separate topic.
# [18:39] <dael> dbaron: What are the rules?
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know if current spec defines, but event spec does
# [18:39] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:39] <dael> dbaron: What does event spec define as?
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: I'd like to know before I agree.
# [18:40] <sylvaing_> BradK: yes. my understanding is that there is at most 4 angles here so <angle> seems odd
# [18:40] <kawabata> zakim, ??P2 is kawabata
# [18:40] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: I want any added lsiteners to not effect...Like if you add a new listener in the middle I want the event not to fire.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Is that spec to mediaquery, or is this in general?
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: I don't know.
# [18:41] <dael> dbaron: Part of the problem is you can fire the event on multiple lsiteners so multiple MQ change as a result of same thing. Event spec will define a single event, but not multiple
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: That's b/c it would be multiple callbacks
# [18:41] * sylvaing_ actually, EXIF has 8 orientations but <angle> seems even odder here http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/exif-orientation.html
# [18:41] * MaRakow sylvaing, agreed there doesn't seem to be a great use case for arbitrary angles, but seems difficult to put appropriate names on the orientations of an image where you don't really know which way is up
# [18:41] <dael> dbaron: What we have to define is a simgle thing causes multiple thigns to change. The MQ change adds and event to another event that changed and does that event happen if it's fired later.
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: It seems like you just want this to be well defined in general, not just in this case
# [18:42] <BradK> sylvaing: Spec has it rounding up to 90deg increments, but even so, seems to rely on knowledge of content of whatever page and image it is used on.
# [18:42] <dael> dbaron: I think the problem is if we make the change we'd have to define order. IF you can define lsiteners that fire within eachother it matters what order they happen
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: And I think the callbacks don't handle order
# [18:42] <dael> dbaron: Byt the callbacks don't effect eachother, at least not in Gecko
# [18:43] <dael> ???: Is that gecko specific? B/c unless it's in spec we have the same problem
# [18:43] <dael> dbaron: So I guess I'm okay with it
# [18:43] <glazou> s/??/florian
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll post to the thread to make sure we get some discussion about that.
# [18:43] <sylvaing_> MaRakow: my initial suggestion was to have a flag that says 'behave like url()'. Specifying an orientation is something else...
# [18:43] <dael> glazou: Okay. So discussion continues on ML
# [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0112.html
# [18:43] <dael> Topic: Scrollbar Tracking Control
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: This is an issue that i've been trying to bring up for a year.
# [18:44] * MaRakow ah, I see -- yeah, that sounds simpler
# [18:44] <Zakim> -??P4
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: It would be conventiant if CSS could declare a scrollbar in an element once it's close to the bottom attaches to the bottom
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: This is common in chat windows and things were you continually add content to the bottomo f the list.
# [18:44] <sylvaing_> MaRakow: yeah, the idea was there is a feature of image() you want to use but you want the EXIF metadata ignored. not sure it matters. we'll see...
# [18:44] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:44] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:44] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: It's quite had to get this to work well. Gmail has a constant fight witht he chat windows getting them to stick when the height can change unpredictably
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: So have something where if a user scrolls a certain distance from the bottom it stays?
# [18:45] <dael> ???: Do we need a distance or can we say distance zero?
# [18:45] <florian> s/???/florian
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: I was trying to find my objections and I think I've found them
# [18:46] <dael> dbaron: I think my biggest is that I think it's not particularly related to distance form edge
# [18:46] <dael> ...: it's more to which end the content shoulds tck to no matter where you are relative to the edge
# [18:46] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [18:46] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:46] <dael> dbaron: There's cases wehre people will add to top and you want to maintain scroll relative to top IE twitter
# [18:46] <dael> dbaron: So you want to hold scroll close to bottom
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Twitter adds content on both sides. So that would be if you're sufficently far from the content added so you adjust your scroll so the content doesn't move
# [18:47] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0077.html
# [18:47] <dael> ??: So you may not what to maintain because if you scroll up to read more, you want to stay there unless you're at the bottom.
# [18:48] <astearns> s/??/florian/
# [18:48] <dael> florian: I think I'm with TabAtkins, but with that user case
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that's interesting and useful, but different. I'd be willing to look into it
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: But I think what I'm objecting to is that it should be two prop, not one.
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Can you elaborate?
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: It's too long ago
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Maybe it was semantic where it should be about any edge?
# [18:49] <BradK> When you are at the bottom of twitter, you do NOT want to stay at the bottom when new content is added to the bottom. You want to stay on the tweet you are on.
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: That way you could add to either side and it would stick?
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Is this something you'd like to discuss on thread?
# [18:49] <dael> dbaron: One this was which end the content was coming from and the other was how different you are from the edge
# [18:50] <dael> florian: I'm not sure that would work in twitter. Content can add from both sides
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're willing to discuss on list, that's okay. I've brought it up and got crickets and I want to make progress
# [18:50] <dael> dbaron: You should go ahead
# [18:50] <dbaron> ... I don't have time to discuss it
# [18:50] <dael> florian: If we get snapping is scroll would that fix it?
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Current proposal is that the user agent defines. There may be cases where youw ant to say exactly how far you are from edge
# [18:51] <dael> florian: Where would you want to not be at the edge?
# [18:51] * sylvaing_ hasn't noticed that in Aurora fwiw
# [18:51] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [18:51] * sylvaing_ uses IRCCloud
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: IRC cloud does only at edge and it messes up b/c you can't scroll through the edge. I'm not sure where the bug is, but you can be 2px from the edge and can't get all down
# [18:51] <dael> florian: But if you do scroll snapping, you can do it.
# [18:52] * krit sylvaing_ me neither in Safari
# [18:52] * sylvaing_ agrees; hasn't seen it in Safari either
# [18:52] <dael> ???: I think if you have milt snap points and the content changes enough you may snap to a point that's futher away and snap to the middle. But that would happen here too if you can define multiple
# [18:52] <glazou> not sure who is speaking
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: This is justtop bottom left or right. And if you define distance from edge you stay the same distance.
# [18:52] <sylvaing_> s/???/MaRakow
# [18:52] <glazou> ok
# [18:52] <dael> ???: So this is on the scroller?
# [18:53] <glazou> s/???/MaRakow
# [18:53] <dael> MaRakow: So when you're resizing and want to keep your content it would be off?
# [18:53] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: That's part encoumpassed by twitter case, but it's beyond what I'm asking for. It's interesting, but doens't tie in
# [18:53] <dael> ??: Your 2px thing sounds like a bug not a use case.
# [18:54] <glazou> s/??/florian
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Could be, but sometimes I don't scroll all the way down and it doesn't recover.
# [18:54] * sylvaing_ thinks we should define that this is a reproducible cross-browser issue that derives from CSS
# [18:54] <sylvaing_> s/define/establish
# [18:54] <dael> florian: If you scroll clsoe the the edge but not quite with this new prop, the person that designed the thing with incorporate scroll snapping, take you to the edge, and have you stick there.
# [18:55] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:55] <MaRakow> MaRakow: Also, I feel like this is similar to the use case for keeping the same content in view while resizing responsive web pages
# [18:55] <dbaron> I think this design isn't great for extending to say whether it's distance-from-top or distance-from-bottom that you want to hold constant when the current scroll position is in the middle
# [18:55] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [18:55] * sylvaing_ specifically, some simple repro of the Gmail chat logic may help here...
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think this links to snapping. b/c having something that moves you allt he way is sometimes useful, sometimes annoying.
# [18:55] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: They work well together, but shouldn't be tied together explicitly
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: So any obj to continue discussion in email and, once stable, TabAtkins requests and ED?
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: I think this is interesting and want to see a proposal
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: The proposal is in the e-mails, but we can disucss.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: I'm going to contibute too. Let me think about it
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: Contibution is what I need
# [18:56] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:56] <dael> RESOLVED: Discussion continues over e-mail
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: Any remaning items that can be done in 4 minutes?
# [18:56] <dael> Topic: Subgird
# [18:56] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: There was no discussion on ML
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah, not in 4 minutes
# [18:57] <dael> glazou: Okay
# [18:57] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0057.html
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: I think the pow operator?
# [18:57] * sylvaing_ thinks subgrid is ideal for the f2f. With shots.
# [18:57] <dael> Topic: calc() pow operator
# [18:57] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: So it was suggested to add pow operator to calc. There's a unit as the base on one side and the expoent ont he other.
# [18:58] <BradK> Argh. What is the URL for the IRC transcript? My IRC client just crashed.
# [18:58] * ChrisL hopes for the zok and bam keywords in level 5
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Seems reasonable and no odd problems as long as we keep the exponent non-negative
# [18:58] * sylvaing_ thinks of this every time he sees 'pow' http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101121041503/uncyclopedia/images/9/96/Pow.gif
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Only issues is presidence. You'd have to use parens for anything more than a single digit.
# [18:58] <fantasai> s/presidence/precedence/
# [18:58] <glazou> s/presidence/precedence
# [18:59] <fantasai> s/digit/number/
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: Presumably this is only when both are unitless
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# [18:59] * sylvaing_ hereby proposes POW! as an alias for !important
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: Given that we're not using unit alg. both things need to be a number, but you can multi by 1px to convert to px
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I missed the use case
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: me too.
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: I wonder if it's worth the impl. Of course the browser vendors get final word
# [19:00] * MaRakow calc(1px pow 2) --> the only way to get truly square pixels
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: The use case was in the link. It's for mathmatically pleasing things
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: I have no real opinion. I think we can, but don't see the interest
# [19:00] * krit MaRakow +1
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: It's low value, but simple and does have cases.
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: If we follow that path we'll need sin etc. because that's what we do with complex animations
# [19:00] * dauwhe I'm skeptical about the use case
# [19:01] <ChrisL> yay for sin/cos
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure if we want CSS to have a full calculator
# [19:01] <dael> florian: Could it be custom properties?
# [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure it's slippery slope, but I can understand it's not important enough.
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> --pow(5, 2)
# [19:01] * florian dael, that was sort of a joke, not really needed to be minuted. Sorry for poor humor
# [19:02] <dael> fantasai: I think we don't have to address this. We can do vaiables so you can do variable constants. This can be a preprocessor
# [19:02] <dael> SimonSapin: Did I miss the use case?
# [19:02] <dael> TabAtkins: It's the link in the agenda.
# [19:02] * astearns florian for the use case in the link, a custom property would work fine
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: I'm not hearing consensus. I think we can do this in the future, but it's not high priority.
# [19:02] <dael> ChrisL: I think the common opinion is we're unsure what it's for
# [19:02] <sylvaing_> s/ChrisL/sgalineau
# [19:03] <dael> glazou: So I think we won't resolve for the time being.
# [19:03] * florian I am not surprised, these custom properties are actually pretty powerfull
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:03] * ChrisL resolved: add calc function, don't allow calculations
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SGalineau
# [19:03] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:03] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:03] <dael> glazou: So we're 2 minutes past the hour. The two remaing items for next week. Talk to you next week!
# [19:03] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:03] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:03] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:03] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:03] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
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# [19:03] <Zakim> -florian
# [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
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# [19:03] * Rossen_ glazou used his pow to kill the discussion about pow!
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# [19:08] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P10, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, dauwhe, Stearns, SGalineau, AH_Miller, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins, Bert, fantasai, SimonSapin, gregwhitworth, ChrisL, Plh,
# [19:08] <Zakim> ... dbaron, +1.206.992.aacc, MaRakow, krit, SteveZ, koji, BrianKardell, +33.1.34.51.aaee, kawabata, +44.203.575.aaff, florian, BradK, Rossen_
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# [22:37] <krit> plinss: ping
# [22:38] <plinss> krit: pong
# [22:39] <krit> plinss: Hi. Does Shepherd parse WebIDL?
# [22:39] <plinss> yep
# [22:39] <krit> plinss: things like DOMString have no representation
# [22:39] <krit> plinss: but are defined by WebIDL
# [22:39] <krit> plinss: http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#idl-DOMString
# [22:40] <plinss> ah, you were asking if it’s parsing the WebIDL spec, as opposed to WebIDL in other specs…
# [22:40] <plinss> no, it’s not parsing that spec, but I can add it easily enough
# [22:40] <krit> plinss: hahah, yes
# [22:40] <krit> plinss: that is what I meant
# [22:41] <plinss> ok, give me a minute
# [22:41] <krit> plinss: it might be that it recognizes float, double and all these things as well, would it?
# [22:41] <krit> plinss: so might create a bit of noise
# [22:43] <plinss> Well, Shepherd would find all the anchors in the WebIDL spec, and classify the types of the <dfn> anchors, it depends on if there are <dfn>s for all the other types
# [22:44] <krit> plinss: ah right
# [22:44] <krit> plinss: even for IDLs in specs?
# [22:44] <krit> plinss: doesn't bikeshed use your IDL parser?
# [22:44] <plinss> yes, it does
# [22:45] <krit> plinss: so it might create a lot of links after adding the WebIDL spec.
# [22:45] <krit> plinss: Am I wrong?
# [22:45] <plinss> hang on, I have to look at the bikeshed code to remember what it does exactly
# [22:49] <plinss> I think it will only markup non-webidl native types, so we should be ok
# [22:50] <krit> cool
# [22:50] <plinss> I can always remove the spec if it causes a lot of noise
# [22:51] <plinss> though I’m not sure the WebIDL spec actually has a <dfn> for DOMString
# [22:51] <plinss> but I’ll add it to Shepherd anyway, and we can fix it if we need to
# [23:01] <plinss> ok, it’s added, but fwfw, the webidl parser treats DOMString as a webdil-native type so it doesn’t get markup in bikeshed anyway…
# [23:03] <krit> plinss: oh, ok
# [23:03] <krit> plinss: probably makes sense
# [23:03] <krit> plinss: thanks for adding
# [23:03] <plinss> are you trying to get all the DOMString types in other spec’s IDL to link to the WebIDL spec?
# [23:03] <krit> plinss: I think so
# [23:04] <krit> plinss: I just checked... so far I had to make bikeshed ignore DOMString
# [23:04] <krit> plinss: because it couldn't find a reference
# [23:04] <plinss> hmm, was bikeshed adding the link to DOMString itself?
# [23:09] <krit> plinss: I think it relied on the webidl output
# [23:09] <krit> plinss: but not entirely sure
# [23:09] <krit> plinss: maybe i have <a>DOMString</a> somewher
# [23:09] <krit> e
# [23:10] <krit> plinss: ok, <a interface>DOMString</a> is in the code, see it now
# [23:10] <plinss> maybe, because it doens’t seem to cause an issue in other specs
# [23:11] <plinss> ah, well in order to get _that_ to work, we have to update the WebIDL spec to actually include a <dfn> for DOMString with an ‘interface’ type, it doesn’t have that now...
# [23:11] <plinss> there doesn’t appear to ba a <dfn> for it at all at this point
# [23:12] <krit> plinss: We need to republish WebIDL anyway. Shall I ask Cameron to update the spec, or isn't it worth it?
# [23:12] <krit> heycam|away: --^
# [23:12] <plinss> yeah, it’s probably worth it
# [23:13] <krit> plinss: <dfn dfn-type=interface>DOMString</dfn> it would be?
# [23:13] <plinss> yes
# [23:13] <krit> plinss: cool, thanks!
# [23:14] <plinss> and it also needs an id or to be in an element with an anchor
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# [23:14] <plinss> e.g. the <dfn> could be in the section header
# [23:18] <krit> plinss: I hope heycam|away reads the comments :)
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# [23:30] <plinss> krit: fwiw, it would be a fairly simple change to the WebIDL parser that bikeshed uses to make it turn DOMString in IDL uses to links
# [23:31] <krit> plinss: I think it would be useful... but WebIDL spec still needs to change
# [23:31] <plinss> but it would also want to turn ByteString, object, Date and RegExp into links too, so they’d all need the proper <dfn> markup in the WebIDL spec
# [23:31] <krit> plinss: ah understand...
# [23:31] * krit is going offline now
# [23:32] <krit> plinss: thanks for your help again
# [23:32] <plinss> np
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2014

The end :)