/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 23 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [08:44] * fantasai reads scrollback
# [08:45] <fantasai> Well, I guess it's time to catch up on Masking.
# [08:45] <fantasai> I'm going to pretend I don't know what time it is.
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# [09:19] <Ms2ger> fantasai, shouldn't you be asleep? :)
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# [10:29] <fantasai> yep...
# [10:47] <fantasai> ok, bedtime
# [10:48] * fantasai got through all the issues and filed some more; thorough audit can be saved for later
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# [17:03] <SimonSapin> Do we have a spec for margin-inline-start and friends?
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# [17:24] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
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# [17:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-css-irc
# [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
# [17:25] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:57] <SimonSapin> B
# [17:57] <SimonSapin> (sorry, typo)
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P11
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P2
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??11 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named '??11'
# [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P21
# [18:01] <Zakim> +hober
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:01] <glazou> http://www.tug.org/tugboat/tb27-2/tb87benatia.pdf
# [18:01] <Zakim> +MaRakow
# [18:01] <kawabata> zakim, ??P17 is kawabata
# [18:01] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:02] <BradK> I'm trying the ip phone, but I'm not sure which one is me. Maybe p21?
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# [18:02] <glazou> BradK, yes
# [18:02] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (35%), ??P21 (34%)
# [18:02] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:02] <Zakim> +florian
# [18:02] <Zakim> + +999999aaaa
# [18:02] <BradK> Zakim, ?.p21 is me.
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named '?.p21'
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P21 is BradK
# [18:03] <Zakim> +BradK; got it
# [18:03] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:03] <BradK> Thanks
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (9%)
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# [18:03] <TabAtkins> ...wat
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:03] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (19%), [IPcaller] (47%), Stearns (5%), BradK (13%)
# [18:03] <BradK> Zakim mute me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, mute BradK
# [18:04] <Zakim> BradK should now be muted
# [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:04] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:04] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [18:04] * MaRakow would like some more hold music while we wait :)
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# [18:04] * BradK wasn't hearing noise. Did it lower when I was muted?
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has AH_Miller
# [18:04] <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it
# [18:05] <glazou> BradK, no
# [18:05] <kawabata> zakim, ??P17 is kawabata
# [18:05] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P44
# [18:05] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
# [18:05] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:05] <BradK> I just found my phones
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Any additions?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to ask about backgrounds and borders if anyone can help with author outreach
# [18:06] <BradK> I just found my phone' smite button anyway.
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Go ahead
# [18:06] <BradK> Argh, mute button
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Anything you want to say?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: We have a LC there's a couple of comments from MaRakow
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: What' I'm hesitating is we haven't gotten comments from spread-radius change
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:06] <dael> ...: To make it continuous from 0 to non-zeor
# [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn
# [18:07] <Rossen_> zkim, microsoft has me
# [18:07] <dael> ...: I'd like someone to help me write an article that helps explain it with pictures since from there prspective it's significant
# [18:07] <dael> ???: I can help
# [18:07] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: We can write it on Thursday
# [18:07] <dael> s/???/TabAtkins
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: Also grid layout is looking for review with algorythms
# [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: There was a request for selectors non-element to FPWD
# [18:08] * fantasai hasn't seen it
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [18:08] <plinss> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors-nonelement/
# [18:08] <dael> glazou: Nope. I'm strongly in favor
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:08] <ChrisL> no objection: got a link to ED?
# [18:08] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD of Non-element Selectors
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: 1 req. I have to to add a level 1 to the title.
# [18:08] * dbaron is still loading the spec
# [18:09] <dael> plinss: We lose track when specs don't advertise their level
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I feel like it's a piece of selectors which is at level 4 now
# [18:09] * ChrisL selectors 4.1
# [18:09] <dael> glazou: I'm glad to see this outside selectors b/c I don't think browsers will want to impl
# [18:09] <dael> ...: At least not in CSS engine. It won't work as the rest of selectors
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: I don't feel strongly about level, I just want to see some level added to it
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: It's only a proposal for the time being and if it doesn't make progress and selectors 4 does I don't want to block selectors
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Oh, yeah, it shouldn't be in 4
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: It's good where it is
# [18:10] <dbaron> I wonder if it's a problem that there's material in the Abstract ("not intended to be used in CSS") that's not in any other part of the document.
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: At some point we should see where it fits, but not on the call
# [18:10] <dael> Topic: calc() unit algebra
# [18:11] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0101.html
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: I can addres this. It's proposing how to deal with mailing deviding by united values
# [18:11] <dael> ...: It works widely when we add more math op to calc
# [18:11] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:11] <dael> ...: Right now when you devide in calc it must be a number.
# [18:12] <dael> ...: B/c we cannot in general case decide if a unit will be 0 at parse time
# [18:12] <dael> ...: We like making division by 0 a parse time error
# [18:12] * ChrisL proposes the NaN unit
# [18:12] <dael> ...: This prop is we allow unit and division by 0 at parse is an error. Div at 0 not at parse becomes an infinity and infinities propigate
# [18:12] * glazou ChrisL as soon as you don’t propose nyan :-)
# [18:12] <dael> ...: At the end of the experssion is if it's an infinity it's just the largest value possible.
# [18:13] <dael> ...: Impl have a unit if doesn't go beyond.
# [18:13] <ChrisL> s/propigate/propogate
# [18:13] <dael> ...: IN addition a few of the units that are recipicols would flip themselves around.
# [18:13] <dael> ...: And that's basically it. It doesn't req tracking complicated unit algebra
# [18:13] <ChrisL> s/recipicols/reciprocals/
# [18:13] <dael> ...: For ex you can't mulitply links together. You have to do order so you don't stack units
# [18:14] <dael> ...: The proposal seems simple to me. It doesn't seem like it would be complex extra tracking. The largest available size is wierd, but seems legit and it's continuous as the value appraoches 0
# [18:14] <dael> ...: If we get a very small number we might exceed the largest allowed value anyway
# [18:15] <dael> ...: I am totally willing to accept this into values and units and I want impl interest before I pull the trigger
# [18:15] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:15] <fantasai> This should go into V&U L4
# [18:15] <dael> ChrisL: You said this is a large number rather than inifinity, what happens if you divide two infinities
# [18:15] <SimonSapin> q+ two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
# [18:15] * Zakim SimonSapin, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Just like an NaN it effects all things. If inifinity shows up in any context it becomes inifinity
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Technically we need to trach the sign
# [18:16] <dael> ChrisL: What about the recipicol.
# [18:16] <SimonSapin> q+ to say two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
# [18:16] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's see if the proposal tracks that.
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Dividing by an infinity produces 0
# [18:16] <ChrisL> in general its good and better than throwing an exception
# [18:16] <dael> ??: Do we track the sign of 0?
# [18:16] <SimonSapin> s/??/florian
# [18:16] <dael> ??: If you do 1m - 0px from one end ...
# [18:17] <glenn> -0 = 0
# [18:17] <dbaron> q+ to say that length * length / length seems like it might be more desirable than the other aspects of unit algebra
# [18:17] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: This is true. I can go either way either simplily not care about - 0 or let's be consistant and deviding by -0 creates negative
# [18:17] <dael> florian: But we don't have it. If we have 1n-15px and you n transitions from 5 to smaller, you're going there but there's not trace of where you came from
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: You can type -0 and it means something distinct in JS
# [18:18] <glenn> thinks it should not be treated as distinct
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Coninuity does matter. If you're going from -0 to +0 it does matter
# [18:18] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:18] <dael> florian: If you plan to cross yes, but if you plan to stop there the cont. arguement doesn't work
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: It works most of the time, but when you have a - link fly off to inifinity
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: In the proposal he calls that out and says we only have one 0 and it goes to + inifinity
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Youc an get - infinity, but not from 0
# [18:19] <dael> florian: It's defined byt doesn't give the arguement of cont. at the end
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Int he case wehre you're approach - inf from one side it doesn't work. Where you're doing + it's fine and where you're crossing it's fine.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: In a rare case we lose con't but it ususally wrosk
# [18:20] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:20] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:20] <dael> florian: I don't have a good grasp on use cases, but why is it rarer
# [18:20] <BradK> -infinity / -0 = black hole?
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: b/c mostvalues are positive. We don't have many instances of negative
# [18:20] <Zakim> +??P30
# [18:20] <kawabata> zakim, ??P30 is me.
# [18:20] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:20] <dael> florian: In general that makes sense but in relation to this I'm not sure what people would use this for. IT sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure
# [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, mute kawabata
# [18:21] <Zakim> kawabata should now be muted
# [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:21] <SimonSapin> Do we allow attr() on other non-literals in calc()? What does this do? <p data-z=0 style="width: calc(100px / attr(data-z))">
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: It's either that or adopt full floating point semenatics
# [18:21] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (5%), TabAtkins (49%)
# [18:21] * glazou dbaron, it kawabata echoing
# [18:21] <dael> ChrisL: It prob is complex but is also prob being implemented
# [18:21] * glazou it was
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: I can argue for simple, but if the complex is being use that's fine.
# [18:21] <Zakim> +??P44
# [18:21] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
# [18:21] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: We can leave that open as an issue ands ee what people think with more time
# [18:21] <ChrisL> s/implemented/implemented on to of IEEE floating point anyway/
# [18:22] <plinss> ack
# [18:22] <dael> ???: I like it in general, but don't like two different behaviours for division by 0
# [18:22] <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
# [18:22] <dael> SimonSapin: It's not always obvious 0 division is detectable at parse time
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: It is completely detectable.
# [18:22] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, mute zcorpan
# [18:22] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: When you can't detect at parse you fallback and when you can't you don't get the fallback behaviour
# [18:23] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (61%), plinss (13%), SimonSapin (24%), florian (28%), fantasai (14%), TabAtkins (33%)
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with making detectable division by infinity use case as well. Unlike that's in the wild a lot
# [18:23] * glazou Zakim me at 61% ??? I said four words
# [18:23] * zcorpan sorry. i've muted myself on my end now
# [18:23] <glazou> Zakim, unmute zcorpan
# [18:23] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: I'm fine as well, but want to note TabAtkins discription is wrong. Issue isn't if it has units, but is if you have to analize them
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: The calc() spec makes the statement that producing a 0 unit isn't the same as 0. It's still united and therefore invalid.
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: 5px/0px breaks current parsing
# [18:24] <dael> dbaron: I'm answering a q about Zach's proposal. I'm fine with changing it and prob a good idea
# [18:24] <plinss> ack SimonSapin
# [18:24] <Zakim> SimonSapin, you wanted to say two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
# [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd rather have only 1 behavious of div by 0
# [18:24] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <dbaron> s/changing it/changing it so that all division by zero uses the same rules/
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Then all div by 0 uses this semeantic we don't have about parse time error checking
# [18:25] <dael> ???: Is this the only issue?
# [18:25] <zcorpan> what about 0/0 ?
# [18:25] <zcorpan> also +infinity?
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, I think that's the issue. What I'm saying is all 0 division creates infinity and remove parse time detections
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Does a resolution sound resonable.
# [18:25] <plinss> q?
# [18:25] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <ChrisL> q?
# [18:25] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <dbaron> ack dbaron
# [18:26] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to say that length * length / length seems like it might be more desirable than the other aspects of unit algebra
# [18:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <dael> dbaron: So I think the, I'm concerned about limits on unit algebra b/c length * length/length seems more useful and not that hard to track.
# [18:26] <SimonSapin> zcorpan, 0/0 is +infinity in the proposal IIRC
# [18:26] <dael> dbaron: I'd be inclinded to allow instead of forbid
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: What do you mean it's a bunch of int?
# [18:26] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [18:26] <dael> dbaron: You just have to track it
# [18:27] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: ok. that's different from JS though
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: You'd be okay with length * time/length - time
# [18:27] <dbaron> s/track it/track a bunch of dimensions/
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: We were going for simplicity, but if you think it's better I'm fine with that.
# [18:27] <Bert> (I agree with dbaron: a / b * c should always be a * c / b, except, possibly, for overflow.)
# [18:27] <dael> SimonSapin: I think it's non-obvious if we don't do that.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I have 0 problems with that.
# [18:27] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/florian (once)
# [18:27] <MaRakow> Some of the unit conversions look a bit off to me but I'll catch up and respond on the mail (e.g. <number> / <resolution> = <length>?)
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: IN that case... Does adopting unit algerba to calc with a issue that we need to decide if we have to adobt floating point
# [18:28] <dbaron> q+ to ask about implementor interest (Tab's original question)
# [18:28] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:28] <dael> florian: I'm not sure if that right. Do we already have units?
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: We're liniar by nature
# [18:28] <ChrisL> except for color values which are not linear
# [18:28] <dael> florian: So length is the only case?
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Correct.
# [18:28] <dbaron> dbaron: we have time and frequency
# [18:28] <dael> florian: That makes it easier.
# [18:28] <plinss> ack dbaron
# [18:28] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to ask about implementor interest (Tab's original question)
# [18:28] <dbaron> Tab: and length and resolution
# [18:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <dael> dbaron: One thins TabAtkins asked is is there impl interest and we didn't disuss that
# [18:29] <dael> dbaron: I think this is interesting, but not top of our priority list right now
# [18:29] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. I don't know how to decide if that's good to add, though
# [18:29] <dael> fantasai: I think that means add it to level 4
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. If we did that we'd need to add infinity to current level for future compat
# [18:30] <dael> glazou: Sounds okay to me
# [18:30] <dael> dbaron: What's the calc impt now?
# [18:30] * glazou dael that was not me
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: Blink does. It's not usniversal but almost. I'm not sure about ??
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: IE does impl
# [18:30] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:30] <dael> dbaron: It sounds like if we have imterop we should do it
# [18:30] <dbaron> s/we should do it/the new thing should be level 4/
# [18:30] <dael> florian: Well, calc doesn't work with MQ
# [18:30] <zcorpan> s/??/WebKit/
# [18:31] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: That's a impl bug. The division should be in level 3 b/c it's deployed and impl
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: There's an issues with division that's small and perhaps should be in 3 if implementors are willing to do it now, perhaps
# [18:31] <fantasai> s/The division should be in level 3 b/c it's deployed and impl//
# [18:31] <dael> dbaron: Maybe, but changing it is glossing over compat problem
# [18:31] * zcorpan didn't hear properly
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: A moment ago you said you were fine, but you say you're fine will all 0 div into infinity
# [18:32] <dael> dbaron: Yes, but it's a denet chunk of work
# [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai^: We shouldn't add new stuff to L3, because there's a subset that's deployed and implemented and people need to know what that is.
# [18:32] <dael> florian: Are you saying it's okay now or in future?
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Future makes compat worse. I think Blink would be okay
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: What's effectied?
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're dividing by 0 or a unit that becomes 0.
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: So currently that gets parsed to error so presumptively not many people are relying on it so let's ignore that
# [18:33] <BradK> It could be used as a CSS browser filter
# [18:33] <dael> dbaron: IN general we don't worry about compat when changing previous invalid into valid
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That's kinda the point
# [18:33] <fantasai> of forwards-compatible parsing
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: There is the chance you rely on it not working, but every change may have that campt problem
# [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai^: calc(2em/5px) is also currently parsed as invalid, and we'd be changing that, too.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: So res would be add calc algebra to level 4 and keep an issue in there about +0/-0 handling
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Does that sound good?
# [18:34] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [18:34] <dael> RESOLVED: Add calc() algebra to level 4 and kepp an issue in there about +0/-0 handling
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: What about the division behaviour in 3?
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: We can just change that in future when we do full unit algebra
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: Is that okay? Okay.
# [18:35] <dael> Topic: subgrid keyword
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: There was no ML discussion until last night.
# [18:36] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we have any consensus on ML
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: The main issue is there's not discussion b/c you're the one obj
# [18:36] <Zakim> +??P30
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Yes but we were going to discuss use cases and no one commented on that except dbaron whose questions I answered and Simon removed his objection
# [18:36] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: So one more pass for ML discussion?
# [18:37] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes, let's move on.
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/objection/support for removing the feature/
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin:/???:/
# [18:37] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0184.html
# [18:37] <Zakim> +??P44
# [18:37] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
# [18:37] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:37] <dael> Topic: % Margins/padding on grid/flexbox
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/???:/rossen:/
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: This was raised by 2 people seperately
# [18:37] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:37] <kawabata> zakim, ??p30 is me
# [18:37] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:37] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (4%), fantasai (34%), zcorpan (9%)
# [18:37] * zcorpan muted himself now
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/removed his objection/retracted his position that was in favor of punting/
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: They argued current behavious of flexbox is different than how it works in block where vertical positions are resolved against width
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: They say this is inconcsistant and allows certain hacks that allow you to use % padding
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: They argue we should revert to previous version like Block
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: And where flexbox and grid should be consistant, we should change grid too
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: WE had done this in grid and then back imported to flexbox
# [18:39] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I can go either way, but I strongly think they should be consistant. Either works, but I want to hear from impl so we edit one way or another
# [18:39] <BradK> Why was grid different?
# [18:39] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I think Microsoft felt okay with changing flex, but wanted to keep grid the same. Can someone explain why it's okay to break consistancy?
# [18:40] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (9%), fantasai (9%), [Microsoft.a] (66%)
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: The arguement for keeping same length for % resolution kinds makes sense to me. We have a sign compat hit if we changed grid at this point
# [18:40] <dbaron> q+ to comment on why vertical makes sense
# [18:40] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure we can make sure a deep change for apps using grid.
# [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: So our concern is breaking compat. I hear you and conisstancy is important between flex and grid
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure we can make a comprimise. I need to go dig into data and see how much breakage.
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: We have enough apps built on % resolution from height in grid, but not for flex.
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: That's the reasoning.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: If necessary we could work around that compat issue with as switch that's one way for legacy and another way for the rest
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: That's always...havingt he ability to take relative size resolution from height or width...if you can choose from height now width...
# [18:42] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: That would be cool if you could do it universally, but we don't have that
# [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: Are you suggesting a switch like that?
# [18:42] * Zakim plinss, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (60%), TabAtkins (34%), [Microsoft.a] (61%)
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a resolution to the problem and portentially interesting b/c it would let you use vertical % on block
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okayw ith this and if this makes everyone happy it's good
# [18:43] * fantasai is unsure what we're accepting here
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: Let us see what we can find out interenally the baddness a change to % resolution would create.
# [18:43] <plinss> ack dbaron
# [18:43] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to comment on why vertical makes sense
# [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: For now I'd say flex should go back to the rest of CSS and we need to decide what it would do to us
# [18:44] <BradK> -ms-grid-padding-percent-sizing: ??
# [18:44] <dael> dbaron: I think there's a good bit of logic to changing. The block layout is based on tradition width is input, height is putput
# [18:44] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [18:44] <dael> dbaron: In flex and grid there isn't that big difference and having this wierd difference breaks the model that is actually more selemtric
# [18:45] <dael> dbaron: And it think it ought to be more semetric and having the way flex is spec'ed is a good thing
# [18:45] <fantasai> symmetric
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that's why fantasai and I saw grid was doing semetric, we switched felxbox to it
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: If we stay semetric, that would address microsoft's concerns, it would make our impl less happy, but it's not a huge deal for us
# [18:45] <dael> ??: I was going through the mail, do they want to change it back so it's more consistant with doc centric?
# [18:46] <dbaron> s/??/Rossen/
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, theri agruement is based on expectations. You can use % padding to control an aspect ratio, but I'd say we can control aspect ratio directoly
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: there's also an issue about the layout for the containing block, but that's not big
# [18:47] <fantasai> I think the use case for having both reference width isn't aspect ratios, but rather having consistent padding in both dimensions while having that padding respond to space available
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: So going back to resolving width and height, I have to think more about impl, but I'm pretty sure it's not a stretch to allow behaviour controlled at container level
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: Where you have either traditional witdh or this and we can argue which is default
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: That way authors can have doc centric or more semetric behavious
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: But if the current is the default, there's less reason for a flag, I introduced that for compat. It would be somewhat useful, but not worth effort
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Based on the discussion so far I think we can keep current and maybe investigate sep. property to switch
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Is that okay with you dbaron?
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: That's fine. I'm uneasy about switchs
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So I thinkw e should res to keep current behaviour where % vertical padding/margins resolve against heigth
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: And as a seperate action investigate if a switch is useful
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to the resolution?
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: Doens't sound like it
# [18:49] <dael> RESOLVED: keep current behaviour where % vertical padding/margins resolve against heigth
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll investigate the switch
# [18:50] <dael> Topic: Item height when max-height applied to flex container
# [18:50] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0292.html
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: This is a simple tweek to flex brought up by gregwhitworth
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: If flex is indefinite but has a max height and the contect is bigger than max, does flex item grow to contain or is content constrained
# [18:51] <gregwhitworth> You're right
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Spec says item should...I forget, hang on.
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: The flex item gets set to 150px to size of content and overflows the constrainged flex container
# [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Blink is different and makes felx item stay the size of flex continaer
# [18:52] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: This is same as if you set a height instead of max heigth
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Some people think this makes sense.
# [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Suggestion is we change spec slightly so that a max height on flex container constrains item
# [18:52] <Zakim> +??P30
# [18:52] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:52] <Zakim> +??P52
# [18:52] <tantek> Zakim, ??p52 is tantek
# [18:52] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:53] <Zakim> +??P44
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: So how flex should work is you layout contents and max height is violated, you relayout and this change seems to make sense where violating max height doesn't work
# [18:53] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
# [18:53] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. The change would be consistant with how it should work
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: If there's other inconsistant we should change that
# [18:53] <fantasai> s/flex/max-height/
# [18:53] <antonp> +1 for encouraging consistency with the principle that fantasai described
# [18:53] <fantasai> s/relayout with the max height as height/
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure where, but perhaps where we have aspect ratios, but if there's nother changes I'm happy to bring them to the list
# [18:53] <fantasai> er
# [18:53] <fantasai> s/relayout/relayout with the max height as height/
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: For now is there any obj to changing the algorythm to match Blink
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Fireforx imp is for that and I believe gregwhitworth is for it from IE too
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
# [18:54] * Joins: ar (~ar@public.cloak)
# [18:54] <dael> RESOLVED to change the spec's max-height impl to match Blink's impl
# [18:55] <dael> gregwhitworth: How does that compere with Firefox and Webkit
# [18:55] <dbaron> s/gregwhitworth/glennadams/
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Webkit matches blink, firefox and IE impl current spec, but the impl are for making the change.
# [18:55] <dael> glenn: Okay.
# [18:55] * dbaron is skeptical that we'll agree how to define the box tree in 5 minutes
# [18:55] * dbaron isn't sure if that's what the agenda item is about, though
# [18:55] <dael> Topic: Box model/render tree
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: It's better to move to a different topic
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: Okay. We'll come back
# [18:56] <dael> Topic: :role() selector
# [18:56] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0099.html
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: The original thread was for a pseudo-calss that match arrea roles
# [18:57] <SimonSapin> s/arrea/ARIA/
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: That seemed acceptable to me but a recent addendum to the thread that said some aren't computed until layout, so having a pseudo would create bad dependancies.
# [18:57] * fantasai thinks we should do the Last Combinator topic, it will hopefully fit in 4 min
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone have insight into this?
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: It seems similar to old appearence prop but that was in other direction
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [18:57] <dbaron> It seems like a good idea, except for the issue you just mentioned about ARIA roles not being computed until layout.
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: The ideal is it's most useful for query selector
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: I'm concerned that ARIA would be effective by layout
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: That's my resolnce so we can resolve in a good way
# [18:58] <dbaron> s/effective/affected/
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we should take this to the list and ask how it happens
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: ARIA affects the semeantic and not the layout and we can do a pseduo based on that. That makes sense to me
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's continue on the list
# [18:59] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0230.html
# [18:59] <dael> Topic: The LAst Grammar Combinator
# [18:59] <fantasai> summary: need combinator for "one or more, in this order"
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: I argue we have 6 common grammer combinations of which we can exress 5
# [18:59] <fantasai> proposal: Use ?? as combinator
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: We've talked about this before but couldn't get a good syntax and there was general malase about adding more syntax
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: I think the usecase is common. We often have a thing with a main content and a fallback and you need to expess something, but don't care which one
# [19:00] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: In order to do that now you need to do a lot of tricks. It's not easy and unclear and gets worse with 3 terms
# [19:00] <fantasai> example:
# [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right] |
# [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right]? [<length> | <percentage>]
# [19:00] * tantek thinks this is not a 3 minute topic.
# [19:00] <fantasai> becomes
# [19:00] * dbaron wonders if we should really be designing syntaxes this complicated
# [19:00] * glazou neither
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: So I propose we plug this hole so out 2x3 matrix of combinators is complete.
# [19:00] * tantek or even a 0 minute topic at this point ;)
# [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right] ?? [<length> | <percentage> ]
# [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I propose we use ?? for the combinator. It also matches combinator which is 0 or more which you do with juxtipose. It put the ? between instead if on either end
# [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: I put an ex in the IRC
# [19:01] <tantek> wow ?? looks like an error
# [19:01] <dael> dbaron: ?? Seems odd.
# [19:01] <plinss> ¿?
# [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: We're open to other idea. That was just what came to mind for me
# [19:01] <MaRakow> &|
# [19:01] <dael> plinss: Any thoughts?
# [19:01] * fantasai would be happy with ¿
# [19:02] * glazou we should start using emojis
# [19:02] <tantek> interrobang?
# [19:02] <dael> TabAtkins: If the idea is okay and want to talk more syntax, that's fine. We've got a thread so please comment. I think this would make a lot of things better and just want good syntax
# [19:02] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:02] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [19:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:02] <dael> plinss: Okay, that's the top of the hour. I'll talk to you next week, well, I won't be here, but the week after.
# [19:02] <Zakim> -BradK
# [19:02] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:02] <Zakim> -florian
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:02] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
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# [19:02] <Zakim> -??P30
# [19:02] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:02] <Zakim> -tantek
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# [19:02] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -antonp
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# [19:02] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, glazou, SimonSapin, Stearns, hober, Bert, MaRakow, kawabata, fantasai, florian, +999999aaaa, BradK, antonp, TabAtkins, dbaron, koji, gregwhitworth,
# [19:02] <Zakim> ... AH_Miller, zcorpan, ChrisL, [Microsoft], glenn, Rossen_, SteveZ, tantek
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Saying "either A or B, or both" is not overly complex.
# [19:03] * Parts: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) (AH_Miller)
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> It happens in lots of places for simple reasons - image() wants "a list of urls" and/or "a fallback color". The <picture> sizes='' attribute wants "a list of MQ/size pairs" and/or "a fallback size".
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# [19:04] <TabAtkins> In essence, this is the "and/or" combinator.
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> (I suspect that's why &| came up as a suggestion in previous discussions of this.)
# [19:04] <zcorpan> &/?
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> Maybe just // ?
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> Or is that still too associated with comments?
# [19:05] <MaRakow> || means one or more with comma separation, right?
# [19:05] <MaRakow> because normally || would be the logical notation
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: No, you're thinking of multipliers.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> <foo># is "one or more repetitions, with commas".
# [19:06] <MaRakow> o right
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> a || b means "a or b or both, in any order".
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> Sorry, my use of the terms "one or more" was ambiguous.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> One or more among these choices, not one or more repetitions.
# [19:07] <zcorpan> http://picture.responsiveimages.org/#valid-source-size-list is the current spec for sizes="" which could use this
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> [a? b?]!
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> With ! meaning "can't be empty"?
# [19:08] <zcorpan> that looks ok to me
# [19:09] <zcorpan> [ <source-size>* [ , <source-size-value> ]? ]!
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> [ <source-size># [ , <source-size-value> ]? ]! , rather.
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> But dammit, commas strike again!
# [19:10] <zcorpan> right
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> I think we need to just express in the grammar that commas always implicitly must be omitted if the two options they separate are missing.
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Or if it separates the first/last from the rest in a juxtaposed list, must be omitted if the first/last is missing.
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> I'd like to say:
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> [ <source-size>#? , <source-size-value>? ]!
# [19:12] <zcorpan> that seems reasonable
# [19:13] <TabAtkins> I'm warming to the use of ! to mean "required".
# [19:13] <TabAtkins> And it means no new combinators, which is nice, because I seriously do still have to think about what && means every damn time.
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> And regularly try to write it when I mean what we were discussing today.
# [19:14] <zcorpan> i don't know if `[ <source-size>#? , <source-size-value>? ]!` is more understandable than `<source-size>#+ [ , <source-size-value> ]? | <source-size-value>`
# [19:15] <zcorpan> but the latter might become hairy if more stuff gets added
# [19:16] <TabAtkins> Note that #+ is invalid.
# [19:16] <TabAtkins> You can't stack multipliers like that.
# [19:16] <zcorpan> oops. it should be just # ?
# [19:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [19:17] <TabAtkins> Meant to fix taht a while ago, but forgot.
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# [20:30] <fantasai> I don't like []!
# [20:30] <fantasai> Looks like it's supposed to be a multiplier, and it's not
# [20:31] <fantasai> also, too many brackets makes grammars hard to read
# [20:31] <fantasai> // seems reasonable, it's like || except it requires ordering
# [20:32] <fantasai> and // has a directionality to it that || doesn't
# [20:38] <zcorpan> so what would the sizes grammar look like with // ?
# [20:39] <TabAtkins> Commas actually make it impossible to use a combinator for the sizes attr. :/
# [20:39] <TabAtkins> Goddam commas.
# [20:39] <fantasai> heh
# [20:39] <TabAtkins> (Any separator, really.)
# [20:40] <zcorpan> >,>
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# [20:42] <TabAtkins> Just allow commas between the two characters of the combinator!
# [20:45] <zcorpan> that's right
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> I... guess I'm not too opposed to that.
# [20:46] <zcorpan> at least we'd have an opportunity for having emoticons in the grammar
# [20:47] <TabAtkins> &_&
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2014

The end :)