/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 30 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yup, BlinKit and Gecko still implement the busted non-premultiplied behavior.
  4. # [00:03] <astearns> TabAtkins: Chrome 34 and 36 seem fine to me
  5. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> ??? Really?
  6. # [00:03] * TabAtkins checks.
  7. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> !_!
  8. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> It works!
  9. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Yay!
  10. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> And it's not faking it, either! Values *near* transparent still work correctly!
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  20. # [00:35] <astearns> Aha! Correct premultiplied behavior in Chrome is courtesy of the Adobe Romania team :)
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  24. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Sweet!
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  30. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Hm, gotta decide exactly when I should declare Bikeshed good enough for general use, and announce on spec-prod.
  31. # [03:05] <astearns> TabAtkins: getting a new bikeshed error on <position> in the shapes draft
  32. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> I think there are two big projects I wanna finish first - more Markdown, and better globalname support.
  33. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> I'll check.
  34. # [03:06] <TabAtkins> Check your Link Defaults - V&U no longer defines <position>. ^_^
  35. # [03:07] <astearns> all good now. thanks
  36. # [03:08] <TabAtkins> I should try and check for that - it tripped me up previous as well.
  37. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> If you don't remember that you set up a Link Defaults entry, it's super-confusing, because when you ask Bikeshed for all the refs for the term it tells you all of them, including the ones that your spec happens to be excluding.
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  41. # [03:44] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
  42. # [03:44] * Set by glazou on Wed Apr 23 17:24:55
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  48. # [04:08] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
  49. # [04:08] * Set by glazou on Wed Apr 23 17:24:55
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  87. # [14:10] <zcorpan__> TabAtkins: SimonSapin: why don't we special-case + and - when parsing a dimension so that it's possible to do calc(1em+1em-1em) ?
  88. # [14:16] <zcorpan__> i guess some more changes are necessary to support +1em vs + 1em, but the author usability for calc() isn't awesome now
  89. # [14:17] <SimonSapin> zcorpan__: do you mean exclude - in dimension units?
  90. # [14:17] <zcorpan__> yeah
  91. # [14:17] <zcorpan__> and +
  92. # [14:17] <SimonSapin> + is already not an ident
  93. # [14:21] <SimonSapin> I suppose that would work, since only a known closed set of units are ever valid
  94. # [14:23] <SimonSapin> I think it would also simplify http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#the-anb-type
  95. # [14:24] <SimonSapin> I don’t know if there is a compat risk and changing calc() this way
  96. # [14:24] <zcorpan__> http://w3-org.9356.n7.nabble.com/css3-values-calc-and-whitespaces-around-and-again-tp22521p22525.html argues it wouldn't work for keywords
  97. # [14:24] <zcorpan__> but i don't see why we should let that stop making dimensions more useful
  98. # [14:25] <SimonSapin> oh, do we have keywords in calc()?
  99. # [14:25] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#calc-syntax doesn’t seem to allow it
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  101. # [14:26] <SimonSapin> I suppose it’s a possible future addition
  102. # [14:29] <SimonSapin> apparently the current definition of calc() also allows calc(1 + +1px) and other combinations with both an operator and a sign
  103. # [14:29] <zcorpan> for calc(1px +1px) to work we'd have to look at the "representation" or otherwise store the "+" or "-"
  104. # [14:30] <zcorpan> yeah... do we want that? :-)
  105. # [14:30] <SimonSapin> I don’t know
  106. # [14:31] <SimonSapin> I don’t think we actually ever need the full "representation" string, we can get away with a single "has-sign" flag
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  108. # [14:34] <zcorpan> "representation" is needed for quirks mode
  109. # [14:35] <zcorpan> why doesn't calc(1px+ 1px) work today? browser bug?
  110. # [14:35] <SimonSapin> explicitly disallowed per spec
  111. # [14:48] <SimonSapin> If we do this and add keywords, IMO it’s ok if calc(min-content-2em) doesn’t work.
  112. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> 'background-position: center-2em' is the same and hasn’t been a problem AFAIK
  113. # [14:50] <zcorpan> right
  114. # [14:50] <zcorpan> though background-position isn't quite the same since they are two values, not a calculation
  115. # [14:51] <zcorpan> but i agree that it's not a problem that calc(min-content-2em) doesn't work
  116. # [14:58] <zcorpan> i'll send an email about this on friday
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  134. # [17:13] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0477.html'
  135. # [17:13] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  136. # [17:14] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  137. # [17:14] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
  138. # [17:14] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  139. # [17:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  146. # [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  147. # [17:51] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  148. # [17:51] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaaa
  149. # [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  150. # [17:51] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa
  151. # [17:55] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  152. # [17:55] <rodneyrehm> what was the reason to prevent styles from showing in CSSOM when they're loaded from a different origin?
  153. # [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  154. # [17:55] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  155. # [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  156. # [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
  157. # [17:57] <Zakim> +??P11
  158. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P11 is me
  159. # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  160. # [17:57] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  161. # [17:57] <Zakim> +MaRakow
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  164. # [17:59] <glazou> Regrets: plinss, antonp, leaverou, bradK
  165. # [18:00] <glazou> Regrets: SimonSapin, MikeMiller
  166. # [18:00] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
  167. # [18:00] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  168. # [18:01] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  169. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
  170. # [18:01] <astearns> zakim, aabb is me
  171. # [18:01] <Zakim> +astearns; got it
  172. # [18:01] <krit> zakim, who is on the call?
  173. # [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, dael, glazou, MaRakow, SteveZ, astearns
  174. # [18:01] <krit> Zakim, 415 is me
  175. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named '415'
  176. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  177. # [18:02] <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
  178. # [18:02] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.415.832.aaaa (28%), SteveZ (77%)
  180. # [18:02] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
  181. # [18:02] * krit is muted and still produces noise :P
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  183. # [18:02] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
  184. # [18:03] <glazou> krit you have superpowahs
  185. # [18:03] <Zakim> +koji
  186. # [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  187. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  188. # [18:03] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  189. # [18:03] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  190. # [18:03] * fantasai is failing to dial in...
  191. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
  192. # [18:04] <glazou> you still have one minute to join fantasai
  193. # [18:04] <glazou> eheh
  194. # [18:04] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  195. # [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's start
  196. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  197. # [18:05] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  198. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  199. # [18:05] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  200. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Plh
  201. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: We have a full adgenda, but any extras?
  202. # [18:05] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  203. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  204. # [18:05] * glazou calling from phone instead of SIP, give one minute please
  205. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  206. # [18:05] * krit poor hober
  207. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  208. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  209. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P39
  210. # [18:05] <Zakim> -glazou
  211. # [18:05] * hober krit huh?
  212. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P46
  213. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou
  214. # [18:06] * krit Apple has you
  215. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: Sorry for that
  216. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
  217. # [18:06] <zcorpan> Zakim: +??P46 is zcorpan
  218. # [18:06] <dael> plh: I can do a short charter update
  219. # [18:06] <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P46 is zcorpan
  220. # [18:06] * TabAtkins zcorpan: calc(1px+ 1px) is fine in terms of parsing, but disallowed in spec for symmetry.
  221. # [18:06] <dael> TOPIC: Charter Update
  222. # [18:06] <dael> plh: So I've got all the necessary stuff to send the charter to AC
  223. # [18:06] * zcorpan TabAtkins yeah ok
  224. # [18:06] <dael> ...: I expect to send by end of the week at the latest
  225. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: Any questions?
  226. # [18:07] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  227. # [18:07] <dael> Topic: CSS Masking LC/Rename mask-box to mask-border
  228. # [18:07] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/#box-masks
  229. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: So the first issue is the rename
  230. # [18:07] <dael> krit: This was a request from the last call. The reasoning was mask-box is similar to border image so mostly affect ordering
  231. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P51
  232. # [18:08] <dael> ...: The request to was rename to mask-border since that describes what it does
  233. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
  234. # [18:08] <dael> krit: The cost for that is that boxes have a border. also box is rectangular shape so that might be good for SVG shapes
  235. # [18:08] <murakami> zakim, ??P51 is me
  236. # [18:08] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
  237. # [18:08] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
  238. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  239. # [18:08] <dael> krit: But I don't have a preference. I like box or border. I'd like to hear concerns about rename
  240. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P52
  241. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> Zakim: ??P52 is me
  242. # [18:09] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P52 is me
  243. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  244. # [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to note there's other thigns for masking. One related is there's a fill keyword in mask-slice which is similar to border image
  245. # [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Like border image, mask doens't effect middle so is like a border
  246. # [18:09] <dael> krit: So that would be a vote for mask border
  247. # [18:09] <dael> krit: Any other issues/concerns?
  248. # [18:10] <dael> SteveZ: Any reasons to not rename on the ML?
  249. # [18:10] <Zakim> +dbaron
  250. # [18:10] <astearns> s/SteveZ/rossen/
  251. # [18:10] <dael> krit: Just my pros and cons
  252. # [18:10] <dael> rossen: So it sounds like no one else obj to border?
  253. # [18:10] <dael> krit: no
  254. # [18:10] <dael> rossen: So it's fine than
  255. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: So is there any objection?
  256. # [18:11] <dael> rossen: The only one is there's the mask-border...There's left, right top bottom parts and for mask even though it can be just a single border?
  257. # [18:11] <dael> krit: There's a mask border property in the future that takes 4. It's an offset for tiles. There isn't longhand for each side
  258. # [18:11] <dael> krit: Does that answer?
  259. # [18:11] <dael> rossen: Yes. It's going like borders in the respect?
  260. # [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Borders can't take image. It doesn't have per-side. There's one setting for the whole box.
  261. # [18:12] <dael> rossen: Ok
  262. # [18:12] <dael> krit: So can we get a resolution?
  263. # [18:12] <dbaron> So this is the mask property that's analogous to border-image, and we're now calling it mask-border?
  264. # [18:12] <dael> rossen: One more. Do you want to change to mask-border to resever the shorthand or is border-mask another option?
  265. # [18:13] <dael> rossen: As fantasai pointed out, I'd expect the border-mask so that way it would be clear
  266. # [18:13] <dael> fantasai: If it was border-mask, I'd expect only border but this does the whole element.
  267. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Lea
  268. # [18:13] <dael> fantasai: So I think mask-border is correct. If we add border-mask that would jsut do border
  269. # [18:13] <dael> rossen: That would be crazy
  270. # [18:13] <dael> fantasai Yes. My point this the effects the whole thing
  271. # [18:13] <dael> rossen: Are we sure we'll never do that?
  272. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can ever be sure
  273. # [18:14] <dael> rossen: by choosing mask-border we prevent border-mask
  274. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Well, if we choose that now we can't have border-mask
  275. # [18:14] <dael> rossen: So you think that that won't prevent things in the future?
  276. # [18:14] <dael> fantasai: We can never know in the future, but hopefully it'll be fine for now
  277. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: dbaron asked if mask-property is similar to border-image and we're now calling it mask-border
  278. # [18:15] <dael> fantasai: yes.
  279. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: So is there any obj?
  280. # [18:15] <dael> RESOLVED: Change mask-box to mask-border
  281. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: So back to the item 1. LC for masking?
  282. # [18:15] <dael> fantasai: There's more issues I think we should discuss.
  283. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: That's the only one I was told about
  284. # [18:16] * Bert border-width, border-color, border-mask... soon we'll have border-control, which takes a CSS passport.
  285. # [18:16] <dael> fantasai: One was there's mask-type about alpha or luminants to int. image, but there wasn't an analog to mask-border so we added that type
  286. # [18:16] * glazou LOL Bert
  287. # [18:16] * glazou we need CSS Parafe and Global Entry
  288. # [18:16] <dael> krit: Biggest change was is that I added layers to mask prop sim to background and mask-composite to allow you to composite layers.
  289. # [18:16] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/#the-mask-composite
  290. # [18:16] <dael> krit: That's linked here (above)
  291. # [18:16] <Zakim> -Lea
  292. # [18:17] <dael> krit: What I want to do is ask for 1 or 2 weeks review so everyone can look and then go to LC if there's no obj.
  293. # [18:17] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  294. # [18:17] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
  295. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Lea
  296. # [18:17] <dael> fantasai: I'm in favor of review period
  297. # [18:17] <dael> severl: yes
  298. # [18:17] <dael> glazou: Any obj against that?
  299. # [18:17] <dael> krit: Do we want to bring it up during the F2F?
  300. # [18:18] <dael> krit: Or do we just go to LC automatically?
  301. # [18:18] <dael> fantasai: I think we should talk again
  302. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: I agree. I think 2 weeks review and all q can be addressed in the week before F2F since that's a bit more than 2 weeks.
  303. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: So that's a good time to discuss issues
  304. # [18:18] <dael> krit: Okay.
  305. # [18:18] <dael> action everyone review CSS Masking and send comments
  306. # [18:18] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  307. # [18:18] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
  308. # [18:18] <Zakim> +florian
  309. # [18:19] <dael> Topic: Proposal to split CSS Text level 3
  310. # [18:19] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014AprJun/0036.html
  311. # [18:19] <Zakim> -Lea
  312. # [18:19] <fantasai> lea, can you help get feedback on the spread radius changes from the authoring community?
  313. # [18:19] <leaverou> fantasai: yes, but I will need some help on what to ask
  314. # [18:19] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  315. # [18:19] <dael> koji: The idea is the spec has been split zero times. In the LC we have more than 70 issues and I think that means that it just keeps getting issues
  316. # [18:19] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (49%), koji (20%), BrianKardell (9%), fantasai (54%), [Microsoft.a] (85%)
  317. # [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, mute krit
  318. # [18:20] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
  319. # [18:20] <dael> fantasai: My concern is witht he fact that a lot of these features are interrelated so I'm hesitant to split the spec more than before
  320. # [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
  321. # [18:20] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
  322. # [18:20] <dael> fantasai: Maybe if we have a solid bas as 3 and do additions as partial modules, but I think I'd prefer to churn through the issues.
  323. # [18:20] * krit glazou it started with fantasai
  324. # [18:20] <Zakim> +Lea
  325. # [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I think the problem is no one looked until we are in LC
  326. # [18:20] * glazou krit you suggest to mute Elika ;-)
  327. # [18:21] <dael> koji: Like textbox is interactive so there will be interaction between specs. I don't see..
  328. # [18:21] * krit glazou haha :)
  329. # [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, unmute [Microsoft.a]
  330. # [18:21] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should no longer be muted
  331. # [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, mute BrianKardell
  332. # [18:21] * Zakim BrianKardell should now be muted
  333. # [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, unmute krit
  334. # [18:21] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
  335. # [18:21] <dael> fantasai: The relation between just and align and spacing is very tight. It's not just vocab. If you change the alignment, than just. changes.
  336. # [18:21] <Zakim> -Lea
  337. # [18:21] <dael> koji: I agree.
  338. # [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, unmute BrianKardell
  339. # [18:21] * Zakim BrianKardell should no longer be muted
  340. # [18:21] * glazou dbaron what kind of noise do you hear ?
  341. # [18:21] <dael> koji: Perhaps it should have spacing in that one spec.
  342. # [18:21] * dbaron a bunch of static on top of people talking
  343. # [18:21] <gregwhitworth> I'm hearing the same thing
  344. # [18:21] <dael> koji: Maybe break out white space and text transform
  345. # [18:21] * glazou dbaron clicks ?
  346. # [18:22] * dbaron yes
  347. # [18:22] <Bert> q+ to ask if we know what part is the slowest and if we can put some effort into solving it.
  348. # [18:22] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
  349. # [18:22] * glazou too
  350. # [18:22] * leaverou gives up. I have to pack and leave the room and Skype keeps dropping me for some reason :(
  351. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: We could, but that's too small
  352. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  353. # [18:22] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
  354. # [18:22] <dael> koji: Okay.
  355. # [18:22] * dauwhe I'm hearing lots of static, too.
  356. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
  357. # [18:22] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  358. # [18:22] <dael> koji: Um.
  359. # [18:22] <dael> Bert: I'm still on the side for what's best, but do we know what's the slowest and concentrate on that?
  360. # [18:23] <dael> Bert: If you don't know the slowest, maybe split is the only way, but I'd rather keep it together.
  361. # [18:23] <Bert> s/on the side/undecided/
  362. # [18:23] * fantasai can't hear that
  363. # [18:23] <dael> rossen?: Is it possible to focus on the hard problems first and after that reconsider a split?
  364. # [18:23] * Bert neither
  365. # [18:23] * fantasai dael++
  366. # [18:23] <dael> The static is making it hard
  367. # [18:23] <dael> glazou: Unless there's a firm proposal, I suggest we go to e-mail
  368. # [18:24] <dael> koji: What?
  369. # [18:24] <dael> glazou: The discussion on how to split. Otherwise we'll spend a lot of telecon time
  370. # [18:24] <dael> rossen: Is the question how or if?
  371. # [18:24] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  372. # [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, mute fantasai
  373. # [18:24] * Zakim fantasai should now be muted
  374. # [18:24] * fantasai zakim, who is noisy?
  375. # [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, unmute fantasai
  376. # [18:24] * Zakim fantasai should no longer be muted
  377. # [18:24] <dael> krit: I thinkt he biggest problem is the spec can grow. In last TPAC Kenny raised indent questions and that added to the spec
  378. # [18:25] * Zakim fantasai, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: koji (69%), BrianKardell (18%), ??P46 (15%), [Microsoft.a] (70%)
  379. # [18:25] <fantasai> zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
  380. # [18:25] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
  381. # [18:25] <dael> ...: On the other hand linebreak and alignment do require discussion. The size and braodness is making progress slow
  382. # [18:25] * fantasai silence!
  383. # [18:25] * dauwhe yeah!
  384. # [18:25] <dael> glazou: Okay.
  385. # [18:25] <dael> rossen: So back to the list?
  386. # [18:25] <dael> glazou: That or dedicate F2F time.
  387. # [18:25] <Zakim> -??P39
  388. # [18:26] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  389. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: We have to have a really complete discussion in the same room.
  390. # [18:26] <dael> glazou: It's too big for telecon time
  391. # [18:26] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft.aa is me
  392. # [18:26] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  393. # [18:26] <dael> Topic: Calc() in MW
  394. # [18:26] <dael> s/MW/MQ
  395. # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: This topic was rased by zcorpan.
  396. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: He thinks calc() is low value in MQ so we should disallow it to simplify MQ
  397. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I disagree and think lang consistancy since calc() is just a length and it should be allowed everywhere length is in CSS
  398. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Making arbitary words due to impl concerns makes the language harder to learn
  399. # [18:28] <dael> glazou: I don't think he was arguing on impl constraints, but on use cases
  400. # [18:28] <dael> glazou: But I agree that consistancy matters and I'm with you on that front
  401. # [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: He did also rais for impl issues b/c we're using it in sizes and that does make it more complex
  402. # [18:28] <dael> zcorpan: My main reason was lack of use cases, but it seems there's impl interest so if browsers will impl I don't object
  403. # [18:29] <dael> ???: Impl interest is there, no one has said it's a bad idea, but no one is rushing to it
  404. # [18:29] <glazou> s/???/zcorpan
  405. # [18:29] <dael> zcorpan: I saw Mozilla had interest in impl as well as...
  406. # [18:29] * TabAtkins That last ??? line is florian.
  407. # [18:29] <hober> q+
  408. # [18:29] * Zakim sees Bert, hober on the speaker queue
  409. # [18:29] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  410. # [18:29] <dael> zcorpan: I raised this because we're doing authors a dissrevice if it's not impl but we pretend it existis
  411. # [18:29] <Bert> q-
  412. # [18:29] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
  413. # [18:30] <dael> fantasai: to help on that front, maybe add a note on lvl 3 saying calc isn't there, and say on 4 that we are including it, but it's at risk
  414. # [18:30] <dael> fantasai: That way it's clear that anyone w/ MQ3 doesn't have calc
  415. # [18:30] <Zakim> +glenn
  416. # [18:30] <dael> zcorpan: But why would MQ say anything about that.
  417. # [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It should be where lengths are allowed
  418. # [18:30] <florian> s/zcorpan/florian/
  419. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> s/zcorpan/florian/
  420. # [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, ack hober
  421. # [18:31] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  422. # [18:31] <dael> hober: I'm fine with fantasai suggestion, but I think it's easier for us to restict it now then realize it's a mistake and restrict later.
  423. # [18:31] * dbaron is now known as dbaron-away
  424. # [18:31] <dael> florian: MQ3 is already a rec and I'm not sure we should edit a rec to remove something we're planning to add later. It doesn't mention calc in the first place and if we want this it feel better to talk about calc than MQ
  425. # [18:32] * glazou echoing Tab is freaky :-)
  426. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: And some people are planning on impl calc() in MQ now.
  427. # [18:32] * TabAtkins Sorry.
  428. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Since zcorpan drops his obj if there's impl, I suggest no change.
  429. # [18:32] <SimonSapin> +1
  430. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to that?
  431. # [18:32] <dael> ??: Works for me
  432. # [18:32] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
  433. # [18:32] <glenn> +1
  434. # [18:32] <zcorpan> s/??/zcorpan/
  435. # [18:33] <dael> SimonSapin: I agree
  436. # [18:33] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza_ (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
  437. # [18:33] <dael> several: I agree
  438. # [18:33] <dael> glazou: So any obj against no change?
  439. # [18:33] <dael> RESOLVED: No change to calc() in MQ
  440. # [18:33] <dael> Topic: Box model/Render tree
  441. # [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is best addressed at F2F.
  442. # [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It's more blue sky.something for the future
  443. # [18:34] <dael> glazou: Does that work for you?
  444. # [18:34] <dael> bkardell: I won't be at F2F, but it works.
  445. # [18:34] <dael> glazou: Can you join for one part?
  446. # [18:34] <dael> bkardell: I think so
  447. # [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I can try and represent for him too
  448. # [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0225.html
  449. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> (I unfortunately won’t be at the F2F either but I’m interested to call in for this)
  450. # [18:34] <dael> Topic: inline-x auto-sizing
  451. # [18:34] <dael> fantasai: What was it again?
  452. # [18:35] * dbaron-away is now known as dbaron
  453. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0225.html
  454. # [18:35] <dael> glazou: It was from last week's call
  455. # [18:35] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  456. # [18:35] <SimonSapin> (airport)
  457. # [18:35] <dael> SimonSapin: It talks about general items with non replaced atomic inlines
  458. # [18:35] * krit close to zoo
  459. # [18:35] * glazou SimonSapin wow I lost my left ear
  460. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> (sorry)
  461. # [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: This is asking for 2.1 errata generalizing something that's for inline-block right now to apply to all atomic inlines
  462. # [18:36] <dael> glazou: Is there anything to discuss on telecon for now?
  463. # [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone obj to the idea or should I come up with wording to propse and errata
  464. # [18:36] <SimonSapin> s/general item/generalizing the width calculation/
  465. # [18:36] <dael> bert: Nothing to object, for CSS2.1 it seems like you might say the same thing
  466. # [18:37] <dael> fantasai: We have the flex so if this was changed to all atomic inline, other specs could just say it's atomic inline and than other specs won't have to duplicate and we reduce errors
  467. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> q+ to say that inline-table is an atomic inline but is special sizing behavior, IIRC
  468. # [18:37] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
  469. # [18:37] <dael> bert: I'm not sure that helps. For ex baseline alignment various atomic doesn't work the same
  470. # [18:37] <dael> fantasai: This is just margin and wdith
  471. # [18:37] <dael> bart: but the concept..
  472. # [18:37] <dael> fantasai: The concept exists in CSS2.1 already
  473. # [18:38] <Zakim> -florian
  474. # [18:38] <glazou> Zakim, ack SimonSapin
  475. # [18:38] <Zakim> SimonSapin, you wanted to say that inline-table is an atomic inline but is special sizing behavior, IIRC
  476. # [18:38] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  477. # [18:38] * florian sorry, got to leave. If we reach topic 10, I defer to Tab
  478. # [18:38] <dael> SimonSapin: I wanted to mention inline tabels that have special sizes so perhaps it won't be that easy to generalize.
  479. # [18:38] <dael> fantasai: He said that inline tables have a special sizing so perhaps it won't be that easy to generalize
  480. # [18:38] <SimonSapin> I’m not sure, though
  481. # [18:39] <dael> glazou: It seems this requires more work or at least a text prop so let's decide that and move on
  482. # [18:39] <dael> Topic: Changing MediaQueryList to use events
  483. # [18:39] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0603.html
  484. # [18:39] <dael> glazou: Do we need to continue the discussion on this?
  485. # [18:39] <dael> glazou: Anyone willing to continue, or do we move on?
  486. # [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I haven't picked thi sup on the list so I need to do that.
  487. # [18:39] <dael> Topic: Scrollbar Stickiness
  488. # [18:40] <dael> glazou: Same question here.
  489. # [18:40] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0112.html
  490. # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: This would also benefit from staying on list
  491. # [18:40] <dael> Topic: adding any-pointer and any-hover MQs
  492. # [18:40] <glazou> adding any-pointer and any-hover MQs
  493. # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Currently the pointer and hover let you query aspect of the pointing device and defined as whatever the primary pointing device is.
  494. # [18:41] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
  495. # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: IE a touchscreen laptop has the touch screen and the pointer. This becomes hard when you do something like plug in a mouse
  496. # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: We wanted to know users probable interaction and what they might be able to do
  497. # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: WE let it determine what's the most likely thing for users to use, touchpad laptop etc
  498. # [18:41] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  499. # [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Hover does all the values that might be on the screen, it jsut tells you what the user might be capable of
  500. # [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this addresses a large issue rather elegantly and I want to add this to MQ, but I'm wordering about other thoughts
  501. # [18:42] <dael> glazou: comments?
  502. # [18:42] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
  503. # [18:42] <dael> rossen: I'm not caught up on this one, but I'd like to run this by others. Can we wait a week?
  504. # [18:43] <dael> glazou: is that okay for you?
  505. # [18:43] <dael> ??: I was looking at this and I think the challange is along the lines of it's look at this a course or fine
  506. # [18:43] <dael> ...: This is fine if there's just primary and secondary, but if you end up with more teers it's limiting
  507. # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Do you have examples where primary might be hard?
  508. # [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: On my chromebook touchpad is primary, screen secondary. Every example I can think of one can be reasonably assumed as the primary and I think it's okay to play favorites
  509. # [18:44] <dael> ??: My main thought is what you're trying to do is negotioate between what's best for the divice and what's best for the author. If I have 3 options you can rank those by what's best
  510. # [18:45] <glazou> s/??/gregwhitworth
  511. # [18:45] <MaRakow> actually that's me
  512. # [18:45] <gregwhitworth> nope it's Matt Rakow
  513. # [18:45] <dael> ...: And then you can corispond precendance. But when you have multipe teers and the author has things for 2 and 3, does it use 2 not three?
  514. # [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: So the thing is the pointer can smash all them together?
  515. # [18:46] <Zakim> -Plh
  516. # [18:46] <dael> MaRakow: Maybe this is best on ML, but I think that picking an input is more complex here.
  517. # [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  518. # [18:46] <Zakim> +??P28
  519. # [18:46] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P28 is me
  520. # [18:46] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  521. # [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: We can get more detailed, I'm happy with that.
  522. # [18:46] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this topic?
  523. # [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: No
  524. # [18:46] <dael> Topic: officially using the behavior of 'animation' wrt parsing
  525. # [18:46] <dael> <custom-ident>s in properties.
  526. # [18:46] <glazou> officially using the behavior of 'animation' wrt parsing <custom-ident>s in properties.
  527. # [18:46] <dael> glazou: We had a comment on the public ML
  528. # [18:47] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
  529. # [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: That confuses me because this is what I thought he was asking for which means I misread.
  530. # [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I need to go look into what he wants and withdraw this
  531. # [18:47] <dael> glazou: So nothing to discuss now
  532. # [18:47] <dael> glazou: We have time, anything else to discuss?
  533. # [18:47] <dael> glazou: One thing, I think plinss mentioned this, but we need F2F items. Please place it on the wiki
  534. # [18:48] <dael> glazou: If you don't have a hotel room, please book
  535. # [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Variables hasn't had anything since LC last year
  536. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I've been working on comments.
  537. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Last resolution is CR once I finish DoC
  538. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I've made significant changes so we should republish as LC
  539. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: So if we can get that with a 4 or 6 week waiting period I'd be happy
  540. # [18:49] <dael> glazou: When were the last sig. changes
  541. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: A month-ish
  542. # [18:49] <dael> glazou: Did people review?
  543. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: The impl, Cameron, did
  544. # [18:49] <dael> fantasai: The major changes were call discussed, right?
  545. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  546. # [18:49] <dael> glazou: I wanted to make sure no one would obj to LC without review here.
  547. # [18:49] <dael> glazou: So any support, obj, whatever to the LC?
  548. # [18:49] <dael> ??: I support it
  549. # [18:49] <dael> glazou: I do to
  550. # [18:50] <astearns> support publishing
  551. # [18:50] <glenn> +1
  552. # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: We need it pub so I support
  553. # [18:50] <dael> glazou: Any objections to new LC of Variables
  554. # [18:50] <dael> RESOLVED: New LC for Variables
  555. # [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I can prep today. Can we pub thursdya or tuesday?
  556. # [18:50] <dael> bert: I have holiday tomorrow so won't be available and don't want to risk it tonight
  557. # [18:50] <dael> glazou: Most of Europe is on holiday tomorrow
  558. # [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll prep for Tuesday.
  559. # [18:51] <dael> Bert: Tuesday is fine.
  560. # [18:51] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
  561. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> s/??/TabAtkins
  562. # [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Anything else to publish?
  563. # [18:51] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0480.html [css-values] Revisiting calc() and whitespace
  564. # [18:51] <dael> zcorpan: I have another topic, I jsut sent an e-mail re calc.
  565. # [18:52] <dael> zcorpan: My proposal is don't be fussy with whitespace. We changed parsing to allow white space around + and - and it seems silly to not support it
  566. # [18:52] <dael> dbaron: So just changing parsing means it's req. in some place not others which is confusing
  567. # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I think previous concern is still valid
  568. # [18:52] <dael> glazou: In you're e-mail the 4th calc example, do you want that valid?
  569. # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: That's invalid
  570. # [18:52] <dael> glazou: It is now, but zcorpan says it's hard to explain
  571. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> That is valid in JS: `1 + + 2` == 3
  572. # [18:53] <dael> zcorpan: I want it valid to 1+ not 2+
  573. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> calc(10px + -2px) ?
  574. # [18:53] <dael> fantasai: I'm leaning no change here
  575. # [18:53] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
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  577. # [18:53] <dael> zcorpan: We can think over this and discuss in a week
  578. # [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Yep
  579. # [18:53] <dael> glazou: Okay. It'll get discussed on ww-style
  580. # [18:53] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
  581. # [18:54] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  582. # [18:54] <Zakim> -dbaron
  583. # [18:54] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  584. # [18:54] <Zakim> -glenn
  585. # [18:54] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  586. # [18:54] <Zakim> -glazou
  587. # [18:54] <Zakim> -fantasai
  588. # [18:54] <Zakim> -koji
  589. # [18:54] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  590. # [18:54] <dael> glazou: Okay. It's a short call. Thanks everyone and we'll talk next week.
  591. # [18:54] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  592. # [18:54] <Zakim> -??P46
  593. # [18:54] <Zakim> -Rossen_
  594. # [18:54] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  595. # [18:54] <Zakim> -astearns
  596. # [18:54] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  597. # [18:54] <Zakim> -dael
  598. # [18:54] <Zakim> -Bert
  599. # [18:54] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  600. # [18:54] * Parts: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  601. # [18:54] <Zakim> -murakami
  602. # [18:54] <Zakim> -krit
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  606. # [18:56] <zcorpan> yeah i'd like calc(1px +1px); to be valid
  607. # [18:59] * Parts: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (rhauck)
  608. # [19:00] * Parts: murakami (~769ad103@public.cloak) (murakami)
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  611. # [19:05] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft.a], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  612. # [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  613. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa, dael, glazou, MaRakow, SteveZ, +1.206.675.aabb, astearns, krit, BrianKardell, koji, TabAtkins, gregwhitworth, fantasai, Plh, hober, dauwhe, Bert,
  614. # [19:05] <Zakim> ... murakami, [Microsoft], SimonSapin, dbaron, Lea, florian, Rossen_, glenn
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  616. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Why would you like that? `1 +1` looks wrong to my eyes.
  617. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> It parses fine, sure, but it looks like you've made a mistake.
  618. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't complain if it falls out, but I definitely wouldn't pursue that as a positive thing.
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  667. # Session Close: Thu May 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)