/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-30 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 30 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:01] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yup, BlinKit and Gecko still implement the busted non-premultiplied behavior.
# [00:03] <astearns> TabAtkins: Chrome 34 and 36 seem fine to me
# [00:03] <TabAtkins> ??? Really?
# [00:03] * TabAtkins checks.
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> !_!
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> It works!
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> Yay!
# [00:05] <TabAtkins> And it's not faking it, either! Values *near* transparent still work correctly!
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# [00:35] <astearns> Aha! Correct premultiplied behavior in Chrome is courtesy of the Adobe Romania team :)
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# [00:45] <TabAtkins> Sweet!
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# [03:05] <TabAtkins> Hm, gotta decide exactly when I should declare Bikeshed good enough for general use, and announce on spec-prod.
# [03:05] <astearns> TabAtkins: getting a new bikeshed error on <position> in the shapes draft
# [03:05] <TabAtkins> I think there are two big projects I wanna finish first - more Markdown, and better globalname support.
# [03:05] <TabAtkins> I'll check.
# [03:06] <TabAtkins> Check your Link Defaults - V&U no longer defines <position>. ^_^
# [03:07] <astearns> all good now. thanks
# [03:08] <TabAtkins> I should try and check for that - it tripped me up previous as well.
# [03:09] <TabAtkins> If you don't remember that you set up a Link Defaults entry, it's super-confusing, because when you ask Bikeshed for all the refs for the term it tells you all of them, including the ones that your spec happens to be excluding.
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# [03:44] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
# [03:44] * Set by glazou on Wed Apr 23 17:24:55
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# [04:08] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
# [04:08] * Set by glazou on Wed Apr 23 17:24:55
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# [14:10] <zcorpan__> TabAtkins: SimonSapin: why don't we special-case + and - when parsing a dimension so that it's possible to do calc(1em+1em-1em) ?
# [14:16] <zcorpan__> i guess some more changes are necessary to support +1em vs + 1em, but the author usability for calc() isn't awesome now
# [14:17] <SimonSapin> zcorpan__: do you mean exclude - in dimension units?
# [14:17] <zcorpan__> yeah
# [14:17] <zcorpan__> and +
# [14:17] <SimonSapin> + is already not an ident
# [14:21] <SimonSapin> I suppose that would work, since only a known closed set of units are ever valid
# [14:23] <SimonSapin> I think it would also simplify http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#the-anb-type
# [14:24] <SimonSapin> I don’t know if there is a compat risk and changing calc() this way
# [14:24] <zcorpan__> http://w3-org.9356.n7.nabble.com/css3-values-calc-and-whitespaces-around-and-again-tp22521p22525.html argues it wouldn't work for keywords
# [14:24] <zcorpan__> but i don't see why we should let that stop making dimensions more useful
# [14:25] <SimonSapin> oh, do we have keywords in calc()?
# [14:25] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#calc-syntax doesn’t seem to allow it
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# [14:26] <SimonSapin> I suppose it’s a possible future addition
# [14:29] <SimonSapin> apparently the current definition of calc() also allows calc(1 + +1px) and other combinations with both an operator and a sign
# [14:29] <zcorpan> for calc(1px +1px) to work we'd have to look at the "representation" or otherwise store the "+" or "-"
# [14:30] <zcorpan> yeah... do we want that? :-)
# [14:30] <SimonSapin> I don’t know
# [14:31] <SimonSapin> I don’t think we actually ever need the full "representation" string, we can get away with a single "has-sign" flag
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# [14:34] <zcorpan> "representation" is needed for quirks mode
# [14:35] <zcorpan> why doesn't calc(1px+ 1px) work today? browser bug?
# [14:35] <SimonSapin> explicitly disallowed per spec
# [14:48] <SimonSapin> If we do this and add keywords, IMO it’s ok if calc(min-content-2em) doesn’t work.
# [14:49] <SimonSapin> 'background-position: center-2em' is the same and hasn’t been a problem AFAIK
# [14:50] <zcorpan> right
# [14:50] <zcorpan> though background-position isn't quite the same since they are two values, not a calculation
# [14:51] <zcorpan> but i agree that it's not a problem that calc(min-content-2em) doesn't work
# [14:58] <zcorpan> i'll send an email about this on friday
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# [17:13] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0477.html'
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# [17:14] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:14] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
# [17:14] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:51] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
# [17:51] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaaa
# [17:51] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [17:51] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa
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# [17:55] <rodneyrehm> what was the reason to prevent styles from showing in CSSOM when they're loaded from a different origin?
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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# [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P11
# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P11 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:57] <Zakim> +MaRakow
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# [17:59] <glazou> Regrets: plinss, antonp, leaverou, bradK
# [18:00] <glazou> Regrets: SimonSapin, MikeMiller
# [18:00] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
# [18:01] <astearns> zakim, aabb is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +astearns; got it
# [18:01] <krit> zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, dael, glazou, MaRakow, SteveZ, astearns
# [18:01] <krit> Zakim, 415 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named '415'
# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:02] <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +krit; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.415.832.aaaa (28%), SteveZ (77%)
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# [18:02] * krit is muted and still produces noise :P
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [18:03] <glazou> krit you have superpowahs
# [18:03] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [18:03] * fantasai is failing to dial in...
# [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:04] <glazou> you still have one minute to join fantasai
# [18:04] <glazou> eheh
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# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's start
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:05] * plh zakim, call plh-work
# [18:05] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
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# [18:05] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: We have a full adgenda, but any extras?
# [18:05] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:05] * glazou calling from phone instead of SIP, give one minute please
# [18:05] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [18:05] * krit poor hober
# [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P39
# [18:05] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:05] * hober krit huh?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P46
# [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:06] * krit Apple has you
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Sorry for that
# [18:06] <dael> glazou: Any extra items?
# [18:06] <zcorpan> Zakim: +??P46 is zcorpan
# [18:06] <dael> plh: I can do a short charter update
# [18:06] <zcorpan> Zakim: ??P46 is zcorpan
# [18:06] * TabAtkins zcorpan: calc(1px+ 1px) is fine in terms of parsing, but disallowed in spec for symmetry.
# [18:06] <dael> TOPIC: Charter Update
# [18:06] <dael> plh: So I've got all the necessary stuff to send the charter to AC
# [18:06] * zcorpan TabAtkins yeah ok
# [18:06] <dael> ...: I expect to send by end of the week at the latest
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: Any questions?
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# [18:07] <dael> Topic: CSS Masking LC/Rename mask-box to mask-border
# [18:07] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/#box-masks
# [18:07] <dael> glazou: So the first issue is the rename
# [18:07] <dael> krit: This was a request from the last call. The reasoning was mask-box is similar to border image so mostly affect ordering
# [18:07] <Zakim> +??P51
# [18:08] <dael> ...: The request to was rename to mask-border since that describes what it does
# [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:08] <dael> krit: The cost for that is that boxes have a border. also box is rectangular shape so that might be good for SVG shapes
# [18:08] <murakami> zakim, ??P51 is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
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# [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:08] <dael> krit: But I don't have a preference. I like box or border. I'd like to hear concerns about rename
# [18:08] <Zakim> +??P52
# [18:09] <SimonSapin> Zakim: ??P52 is me
# [18:09] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P52 is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to note there's other thigns for masking. One related is there's a fill keyword in mask-slice which is similar to border image
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Like border image, mask doens't effect middle so is like a border
# [18:09] <dael> krit: So that would be a vote for mask border
# [18:09] <dael> krit: Any other issues/concerns?
# [18:10] <dael> SteveZ: Any reasons to not rename on the ML?
# [18:10] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:10] <astearns> s/SteveZ/rossen/
# [18:10] <dael> krit: Just my pros and cons
# [18:10] <dael> rossen: So it sounds like no one else obj to border?
# [18:10] <dael> krit: no
# [18:10] <dael> rossen: So it's fine than
# [18:10] <dael> glazou: So is there any objection?
# [18:11] <dael> rossen: The only one is there's the mask-border...There's left, right top bottom parts and for mask even though it can be just a single border?
# [18:11] <dael> krit: There's a mask border property in the future that takes 4. It's an offset for tiles. There isn't longhand for each side
# [18:11] <dael> krit: Does that answer?
# [18:11] <dael> rossen: Yes. It's going like borders in the respect?
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Borders can't take image. It doesn't have per-side. There's one setting for the whole box.
# [18:12] <dael> rossen: Ok
# [18:12] <dael> krit: So can we get a resolution?
# [18:12] <dbaron> So this is the mask property that's analogous to border-image, and we're now calling it mask-border?
# [18:12] <dael> rossen: One more. Do you want to change to mask-border to resever the shorthand or is border-mask another option?
# [18:13] <dael> rossen: As fantasai pointed out, I'd expect the border-mask so that way it would be clear
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: If it was border-mask, I'd expect only border but this does the whole element.
# [18:13] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: So I think mask-border is correct. If we add border-mask that would jsut do border
# [18:13] <dael> rossen: That would be crazy
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai Yes. My point this the effects the whole thing
# [18:13] <dael> rossen: Are we sure we'll never do that?
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can ever be sure
# [18:14] <dael> rossen: by choosing mask-border we prevent border-mask
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Well, if we choose that now we can't have border-mask
# [18:14] <dael> rossen: So you think that that won't prevent things in the future?
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: We can never know in the future, but hopefully it'll be fine for now
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: dbaron asked if mask-property is similar to border-image and we're now calling it mask-border
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: yes.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: So is there any obj?
# [18:15] <dael> RESOLVED: Change mask-box to mask-border
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: So back to the item 1. LC for masking?
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: There's more issues I think we should discuss.
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: That's the only one I was told about
# [18:16] * Bert border-width, border-color, border-mask... soon we'll have border-control, which takes a CSS passport.
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: One was there's mask-type about alpha or luminants to int. image, but there wasn't an analog to mask-border so we added that type
# [18:16] * glazou LOL Bert
# [18:16] * glazou we need CSS Parafe and Global Entry
# [18:16] <dael> krit: Biggest change was is that I added layers to mask prop sim to background and mask-composite to allow you to composite layers.
# [18:16] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/#the-mask-composite
# [18:16] <dael> krit: That's linked here (above)
# [18:16] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:17] <dael> krit: What I want to do is ask for 1 or 2 weeks review so everyone can look and then go to LC if there's no obj.
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# [18:17] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
# [18:17] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: I'm in favor of review period
# [18:17] <dael> severl: yes
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: Any obj against that?
# [18:17] <dael> krit: Do we want to bring it up during the F2F?
# [18:18] <dael> krit: Or do we just go to LC automatically?
# [18:18] <dael> fantasai: I think we should talk again
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: I agree. I think 2 weeks review and all q can be addressed in the week before F2F since that's a bit more than 2 weeks.
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: So that's a good time to discuss issues
# [18:18] <dael> krit: Okay.
# [18:18] <dael> action everyone review CSS Masking and send comments
# [18:18] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:18] <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [18:18] <Zakim> +florian
# [18:19] <dael> Topic: Proposal to split CSS Text level 3
# [18:19] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014AprJun/0036.html
# [18:19] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:19] <fantasai> lea, can you help get feedback on the spread radius changes from the authoring community?
# [18:19] <leaverou> fantasai: yes, but I will need some help on what to ask
# [18:19] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:19] <dael> koji: The idea is the spec has been split zero times. In the LC we have more than 70 issues and I think that means that it just keeps getting issues
# [18:19] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (49%), koji (20%), BrianKardell (9%), fantasai (54%), [Microsoft.a] (85%)
# [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, mute krit
# [18:20] <Zakim> krit should now be muted
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: My concern is witht he fact that a lot of these features are interrelated so I'm hesitant to split the spec more than before
# [18:20] <glazou> Zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
# [18:20] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: Maybe if we have a solid bas as 3 and do additions as partial modules, but I think I'd prefer to churn through the issues.
# [18:20] * krit glazou it started with fantasai
# [18:20] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I think the problem is no one looked until we are in LC
# [18:20] * glazou krit you suggest to mute Elika ;-)
# [18:21] <dael> koji: Like textbox is interactive so there will be interaction between specs. I don't see..
# [18:21] * krit glazou haha :)
# [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, unmute [Microsoft.a]
# [18:21] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should no longer be muted
# [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, mute BrianKardell
# [18:21] * Zakim BrianKardell should now be muted
# [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, unmute krit
# [18:21] <Zakim> krit should no longer be muted
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: The relation between just and align and spacing is very tight. It's not just vocab. If you change the alignment, than just. changes.
# [18:21] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:21] <dael> koji: I agree.
# [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, unmute BrianKardell
# [18:21] * Zakim BrianKardell should no longer be muted
# [18:21] * glazou dbaron what kind of noise do you hear ?
# [18:21] <dael> koji: Perhaps it should have spacing in that one spec.
# [18:21] * dbaron a bunch of static on top of people talking
# [18:21] <gregwhitworth> I'm hearing the same thing
# [18:21] <dael> koji: Maybe break out white space and text transform
# [18:21] * glazou dbaron clicks ?
# [18:22] * dbaron yes
# [18:22] <Bert> q+ to ask if we know what part is the slowest and if we can put some effort into solving it.
# [18:22] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:22] * glazou too
# [18:22] * leaverou gives up. I have to pack and leave the room and Skype keeps dropping me for some reason :(
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: We could, but that's too small
# [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:22] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:22] <dael> koji: Okay.
# [18:22] * dauwhe I'm hearing lots of static, too.
# [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:22] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:22] <dael> koji: Um.
# [18:22] <dael> Bert: I'm still on the side for what's best, but do we know what's the slowest and concentrate on that?
# [18:23] <dael> Bert: If you don't know the slowest, maybe split is the only way, but I'd rather keep it together.
# [18:23] <Bert> s/on the side/undecided/
# [18:23] * fantasai can't hear that
# [18:23] <dael> rossen?: Is it possible to focus on the hard problems first and after that reconsider a split?
# [18:23] * Bert neither
# [18:23] * fantasai dael++
# [18:23] <dael> The static is making it hard
# [18:23] <dael> glazou: Unless there's a firm proposal, I suggest we go to e-mail
# [18:24] <dael> koji: What?
# [18:24] <dael> glazou: The discussion on how to split. Otherwise we'll spend a lot of telecon time
# [18:24] <dael> rossen: Is the question how or if?
# [18:24] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, mute fantasai
# [18:24] * Zakim fantasai should now be muted
# [18:24] * fantasai zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, unmute fantasai
# [18:24] * Zakim fantasai should no longer be muted
# [18:24] <dael> krit: I thinkt he biggest problem is the spec can grow. In last TPAC Kenny raised indent questions and that added to the spec
# [18:25] * Zakim fantasai, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: koji (69%), BrianKardell (18%), ??P46 (15%), [Microsoft.a] (70%)
# [18:25] <fantasai> zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
# [18:25] <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
# [18:25] <dael> ...: On the other hand linebreak and alignment do require discussion. The size and braodness is making progress slow
# [18:25] * fantasai silence!
# [18:25] * dauwhe yeah!
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: Okay.
# [18:25] <dael> rossen: So back to the list?
# [18:25] <dael> glazou: That or dedicate F2F time.
# [18:25] <Zakim> -??P39
# [18:26] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: We have to have a really complete discussion in the same room.
# [18:26] <dael> glazou: It's too big for telecon time
# [18:26] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft.aa is me
# [18:26] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:26] <dael> Topic: Calc() in MW
# [18:26] <dael> s/MW/MQ
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: This topic was rased by zcorpan.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: He thinks calc() is low value in MQ so we should disallow it to simplify MQ
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I disagree and think lang consistancy since calc() is just a length and it should be allowed everywhere length is in CSS
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Making arbitary words due to impl concerns makes the language harder to learn
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: I don't think he was arguing on impl constraints, but on use cases
# [18:28] <dael> glazou: But I agree that consistancy matters and I'm with you on that front
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: He did also rais for impl issues b/c we're using it in sizes and that does make it more complex
# [18:28] <dael> zcorpan: My main reason was lack of use cases, but it seems there's impl interest so if browsers will impl I don't object
# [18:29] <dael> ???: Impl interest is there, no one has said it's a bad idea, but no one is rushing to it
# [18:29] <glazou> s/???/zcorpan
# [18:29] <dael> zcorpan: I saw Mozilla had interest in impl as well as...
# [18:29] * TabAtkins That last ??? line is florian.
# [18:29] <hober> q+
# [18:29] * Zakim sees Bert, hober on the speaker queue
# [18:29] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [18:29] <dael> zcorpan: I raised this because we're doing authors a dissrevice if it's not impl but we pretend it existis
# [18:29] <Bert> q-
# [18:29] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: to help on that front, maybe add a note on lvl 3 saying calc isn't there, and say on 4 that we are including it, but it's at risk
# [18:30] <dael> fantasai: That way it's clear that anyone w/ MQ3 doesn't have calc
# [18:30] <Zakim> +glenn
# [18:30] <dael> zcorpan: But why would MQ say anything about that.
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It should be where lengths are allowed
# [18:30] <florian> s/zcorpan/florian/
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> s/zcorpan/florian/
# [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, ack hober
# [18:31] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:31] <dael> hober: I'm fine with fantasai suggestion, but I think it's easier for us to restict it now then realize it's a mistake and restrict later.
# [18:31] * dbaron is now known as dbaron-away
# [18:31] <dael> florian: MQ3 is already a rec and I'm not sure we should edit a rec to remove something we're planning to add later. It doesn't mention calc in the first place and if we want this it feel better to talk about calc than MQ
# [18:32] * glazou echoing Tab is freaky :-)
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: And some people are planning on impl calc() in MQ now.
# [18:32] * TabAtkins Sorry.
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Since zcorpan drops his obj if there's impl, I suggest no change.
# [18:32] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to that?
# [18:32] <dael> ??: Works for me
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
# [18:32] <glenn> +1
# [18:32] <zcorpan> s/??/zcorpan/
# [18:33] <dael> SimonSapin: I agree
# [18:33] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza_ (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
# [18:33] <dael> several: I agree
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: So any obj against no change?
# [18:33] <dael> RESOLVED: No change to calc() in MQ
# [18:33] <dael> Topic: Box model/Render tree
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is best addressed at F2F.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It's more blue sky.something for the future
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: Does that work for you?
# [18:34] <dael> bkardell: I won't be at F2F, but it works.
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: Can you join for one part?
# [18:34] <dael> bkardell: I think so
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I can try and represent for him too
# [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0225.html
# [18:34] <SimonSapin> (I unfortunately won’t be at the F2F either but I’m interested to call in for this)
# [18:34] <dael> Topic: inline-x auto-sizing
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: What was it again?
# [18:35] * dbaron-away is now known as dbaron
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0225.html
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: It was from last week's call
# [18:35] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:35] <SimonSapin> (airport)
# [18:35] <dael> SimonSapin: It talks about general items with non replaced atomic inlines
# [18:35] * krit close to zoo
# [18:35] * glazou SimonSapin wow I lost my left ear
# [18:36] <SimonSapin> (sorry)
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: This is asking for 2.1 errata generalizing something that's for inline-block right now to apply to all atomic inlines
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: Is there anything to discuss on telecon for now?
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone obj to the idea or should I come up with wording to propse and errata
# [18:36] <SimonSapin> s/general item/generalizing the width calculation/
# [18:36] <dael> bert: Nothing to object, for CSS2.1 it seems like you might say the same thing
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: We have the flex so if this was changed to all atomic inline, other specs could just say it's atomic inline and than other specs won't have to duplicate and we reduce errors
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> q+ to say that inline-table is an atomic inline but is special sizing behavior, IIRC
# [18:37] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
# [18:37] <dael> bert: I'm not sure that helps. For ex baseline alignment various atomic doesn't work the same
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: This is just margin and wdith
# [18:37] <dael> bart: but the concept..
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: The concept exists in CSS2.1 already
# [18:38] <Zakim> -florian
# [18:38] <glazou> Zakim, ack SimonSapin
# [18:38] <Zakim> SimonSapin, you wanted to say that inline-table is an atomic inline but is special sizing behavior, IIRC
# [18:38] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:38] * florian sorry, got to leave. If we reach topic 10, I defer to Tab
# [18:38] <dael> SimonSapin: I wanted to mention inline tabels that have special sizes so perhaps it won't be that easy to generalize.
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: He said that inline tables have a special sizing so perhaps it won't be that easy to generalize
# [18:38] <SimonSapin> I’m not sure, though
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: It seems this requires more work or at least a text prop so let's decide that and move on
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: Changing MediaQueryList to use events
# [18:39] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0603.html
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: Do we need to continue the discussion on this?
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: Anyone willing to continue, or do we move on?
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I haven't picked thi sup on the list so I need to do that.
# [18:39] <dael> Topic: Scrollbar Stickiness
# [18:40] <dael> glazou: Same question here.
# [18:40] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0112.html
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: This would also benefit from staying on list
# [18:40] <dael> Topic: adding any-pointer and any-hover MQs
# [18:40] <glazou> adding any-pointer and any-hover MQs
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Currently the pointer and hover let you query aspect of the pointing device and defined as whatever the primary pointing device is.
# [18:41] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: IE a touchscreen laptop has the touch screen and the pointer. This becomes hard when you do something like plug in a mouse
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: We wanted to know users probable interaction and what they might be able to do
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: WE let it determine what's the most likely thing for users to use, touchpad laptop etc
# [18:41] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Hover does all the values that might be on the screen, it jsut tells you what the user might be capable of
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this addresses a large issue rather elegantly and I want to add this to MQ, but I'm wordering about other thoughts
# [18:42] <dael> glazou: comments?
# [18:42] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:42] <dael> rossen: I'm not caught up on this one, but I'd like to run this by others. Can we wait a week?
# [18:43] <dael> glazou: is that okay for you?
# [18:43] <dael> ??: I was looking at this and I think the challange is along the lines of it's look at this a course or fine
# [18:43] <dael> ...: This is fine if there's just primary and secondary, but if you end up with more teers it's limiting
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Do you have examples where primary might be hard?
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: On my chromebook touchpad is primary, screen secondary. Every example I can think of one can be reasonably assumed as the primary and I think it's okay to play favorites
# [18:44] <dael> ??: My main thought is what you're trying to do is negotioate between what's best for the divice and what's best for the author. If I have 3 options you can rank those by what's best
# [18:45] <glazou> s/??/gregwhitworth
# [18:45] <MaRakow> actually that's me
# [18:45] <gregwhitworth> nope it's Matt Rakow
# [18:45] <dael> ...: And then you can corispond precendance. But when you have multipe teers and the author has things for 2 and 3, does it use 2 not three?
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: So the thing is the pointer can smash all them together?
# [18:46] <Zakim> -Plh
# [18:46] <dael> MaRakow: Maybe this is best on ML, but I think that picking an input is more complex here.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [18:46] <Zakim> +??P28
# [18:46] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P28 is me
# [18:46] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: We can get more detailed, I'm happy with that.
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this topic?
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: No
# [18:46] <dael> Topic: officially using the behavior of 'animation' wrt parsing
# [18:46] <dael> <custom-ident>s in properties.
# [18:46] <glazou> officially using the behavior of 'animation' wrt parsing <custom-ident>s in properties.
# [18:46] <dael> glazou: We had a comment on the public ML
# [18:47] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: That confuses me because this is what I thought he was asking for which means I misread.
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I need to go look into what he wants and withdraw this
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: So nothing to discuss now
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: We have time, anything else to discuss?
# [18:47] <dael> glazou: One thing, I think plinss mentioned this, but we need F2F items. Please place it on the wiki
# [18:48] <dael> glazou: If you don't have a hotel room, please book
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Variables hasn't had anything since LC last year
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I've been working on comments.
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Last resolution is CR once I finish DoC
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I've made significant changes so we should republish as LC
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: So if we can get that with a 4 or 6 week waiting period I'd be happy
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: When were the last sig. changes
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: A month-ish
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: Did people review?
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: The impl, Cameron, did
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: The major changes were call discussed, right?
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: I wanted to make sure no one would obj to LC without review here.
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: So any support, obj, whatever to the LC?
# [18:49] <dael> ??: I support it
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: I do to
# [18:50] <astearns> support publishing
# [18:50] <glenn> +1
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: We need it pub so I support
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: Any objections to new LC of Variables
# [18:50] <dael> RESOLVED: New LC for Variables
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I can prep today. Can we pub thursdya or tuesday?
# [18:50] <dael> bert: I have holiday tomorrow so won't be available and don't want to risk it tonight
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: Most of Europe is on holiday tomorrow
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll prep for Tuesday.
# [18:51] <dael> Bert: Tuesday is fine.
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> s/??/TabAtkins
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Anything else to publish?
# [18:51] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0480.html [css-values] Revisiting calc() and whitespace
# [18:51] <dael> zcorpan: I have another topic, I jsut sent an e-mail re calc.
# [18:52] <dael> zcorpan: My proposal is don't be fussy with whitespace. We changed parsing to allow white space around + and - and it seems silly to not support it
# [18:52] <dael> dbaron: So just changing parsing means it's req. in some place not others which is confusing
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I think previous concern is still valid
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: In you're e-mail the 4th calc example, do you want that valid?
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: That's invalid
# [18:52] <dael> glazou: It is now, but zcorpan says it's hard to explain
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> That is valid in JS: `1 + + 2` == 3
# [18:53] <dael> zcorpan: I want it valid to 1+ not 2+
# [18:53] <SimonSapin> calc(10px + -2px) ?
# [18:53] <dael> fantasai: I'm leaning no change here
# [18:53] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:53] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:53] <dael> zcorpan: We can think over this and discuss in a week
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Yep
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Okay. It'll get discussed on ww-style
# [18:53] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
# [18:54] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [18:54] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:54] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:54] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:54] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:54] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:54] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:54] <Zakim> -koji
# [18:54] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:54] <dael> glazou: Okay. It's a short call. Thanks everyone and we'll talk next week.
# [18:54] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:54] <Zakim> -??P46
# [18:54] <Zakim> -Rossen_
# [18:54] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:54] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:54] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [18:54] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:54] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:54] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:54] * Parts: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [18:54] <Zakim> -murakami
# [18:54] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:54] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:54] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:56] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [18:56] <zcorpan> yeah i'd like calc(1px +1px); to be valid
# [18:59] * Parts: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (rhauck)
# [19:00] * Parts: murakami (~769ad103@public.cloak) (murakami)
# [19:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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# [19:05] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft.a], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa, dael, glazou, MaRakow, SteveZ, +1.206.675.aabb, astearns, krit, BrianKardell, koji, TabAtkins, gregwhitworth, fantasai, Plh, hober, dauwhe, Bert,
# [19:05] <Zakim> ... murakami, [Microsoft], SimonSapin, dbaron, Lea, florian, Rossen_, glenn
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# [19:09] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Why would you like that? `1 +1` looks wrong to my eyes.
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> It parses fine, sure, but it looks like you've made a mistake.
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't complain if it falls out, but I definitely wouldn't pursue that as a positive thing.
# [19:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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# [19:22] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [19:23] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [19:26] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Signing Off. Buh-bye.")
# [19:30] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:36] * Quits: rodneyrehm (~rrehm@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:55] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:55] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:00] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [20:04] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza_ (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [20:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:16] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [20:17] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [20:33] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [20:58] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:05] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:05] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [21:12] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:27] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [21:31] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [21:43] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [21:43] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [21:45] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [22:07] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:09] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [22:11] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:12] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [22:14] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
# [22:17] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [22:20] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:44] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:55] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [22:56] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [23:04] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:07] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [23:14] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:26] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [23:33] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [23:36] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [23:47] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:47] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [23:47] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [23:48] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [23:51] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [23:54] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:57] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# Session Close: Thu May 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)