/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-05-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 07 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:00] <dholbert> TabAtkins, (yeah, I'd forgotten that min-size didn't explicitly set a lower-bound for computed max-size. good catch)
# [00:00] <TabAtkins> (It can't, because min-size might be a used-time value.)
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# [00:13] <dholbert> TabAtkins, [AFAICT, this should address both my "negative to positive" thread and my '"flex-shrink" value of a min-size-clamped flex item' thread
# [00:14] <TabAtkins> Yes, I think so.
# [00:14] <TabAtkins> Only thing we're left with is evaluating your suggestion to switch back to the older algo style.
# [00:14] <dholbert> cool
# [00:15] <TabAtkins> Which is just a matter of you not wanting to have to redo your float-correctness tweaks due to the change in magnitudes?
# [00:16] <dholbert> That, plus the possibility of any other not-yet-discovered inconsistencies between the two versions of the algorithm
# [00:17] <dholbert> plus the fact that (IMHO) the old one is easier to grok / reason about (though that could just be me)
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> So the reason I changed the algo is to handle one particular case more easily:
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> Say you've got a flexbox 1000px wide.
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> 11 items, all with a flex of .1.
# [00:17] <dholbert> (... plus the fact that other implementations will probably not want to rewrite it from scratch; or at least, I'd counsel them against it)
# [00:17] <TabAtkins> Five of them have a max-size of 10px.
# [00:18] <dholbert> (note this is now something we'll catch immediately, w/ the new early-freeze step)
# [00:18] <TabAtkins> This starts us out with a sum > 1, but after clamping, the sum is < 1.
# [00:18] <dholbert> (oh wait, I might be wrong. sorry, I'll listen :))
# [00:18] <TabAtkins> And the desired behavior is that we end up having the "< 1" behavior, where the remaining items all get .1 of the original free space (100px)
# [00:18] <TabAtkins> Not affected by quick-freeze, becasue base size is 0px
# [00:18] <dholbert> k
# [00:18] <TabAtkins> So what we want is 5 items 10px wide, and 6 items 100px wide.
# [00:19] <TabAtkins> This lets you be sure that when you say "flex: .1;", they'll be 10% of the container.
# [00:19] <TabAtkins> But it's very tricky to do correctly when you flip from >1 to <1 in the original algo.
# [00:20] <dholbert> I think my suggested tweak does it correctly, but I may be wrong
# [00:21] <dholbert> If we assume we have the original free space (which now doesn't need to ever change, w/ early-freeze)
# [00:21] <dholbert> then, on each time through the loop, we just compute the sum of our unfrozen items' flex values
# [00:22] <dholbert> and if it's less than 1, then make sure the free space is no larger than sumFlex * origFreeSpace
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Okay, I'll work through some examples with your suggestion and see.
# [00:23] <dholbert> So in your example, after we've frozen all the max-size guys, we'd say "hey, our flexibilities now sum to 0.5. That times origFreeSpace is 500, which is less than the free space we were about to distribute to them"
# [00:24] <dholbert> (which was 950px)
# [00:24] <dholbert> "So instead of 950px, we're only going to distribute 500px"
# [00:24] <dholbert> and each one gets (0.1 / 0.5) * 500px = 100px
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay, that seems reasonable on its face.
# [00:26] <dholbert> Cool. Yeah, the basic idea is to scale down the free space by the (fractional) sum of our flexibilities, which makes the flexibilities behave like percentages
# [00:26] <dholbert> and to use that as a clamp on the free-space (though the free space may already be less than that, in which case it has no effect)
# [00:27] <dholbert> (*the current free space may already be less than that)
# [00:35] <fantasai> Just checked in some rephrasings that should make it a little easier to read
# [00:36] <fantasai> Going to work on making the negative calculations easier to read now :)
# [00:36] <fantasai> there's probably random glitches, lemme know and I'll fix them (if I haven't noticed already once I go through it again)
# [00:40] * fantasai cleans up some glitches, and listifies an item
# [00:42] <dholbert> fantasai, thanks! looking
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# [00:44] <fantasai> dholbert: um, reload. just fixed some markup :)
# [00:44] <dholbert> saw. thanks :)
# [00:45] <fantasai> if you've got editorial suggestions, or think something should be converted li <-> p, let me know :)
# [00:45] <dholbert> fantasai, did you intend for https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/e6fb786edca2 to change the selectors spec?
# [00:45] <fantasai> probably not
# [00:46] * fantasai looks
# [00:46] <dholbert> looks like a minor tweak, just want to make sure it's a good tweak & not a bad one. :)
# [00:46] <fantasai> It's a good one :)
# [00:46] <dholbert> hooray!
# [00:46] <fantasai> gets the <dfn> out of the heading and into a paragraph
# [00:46] <fantasai> not really important...
# [00:47] * fantasai needs to fix the duplicate anchors, auto-linking seems to hit a first-formatted-line0 anchor which is silly
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# [00:47] <dholbert> fantasai, "freeze any flexible items have a " -- wants to say "_that_ have a"
# [00:47] <dholbert> (2 spots)
# [00:48] <dholbert> under Size inflexible items
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# [00:49] <fantasai> K!
# [00:54] <fantasai> dholbert: Rearranged that step a bit to reduce duplication. Let me know if it's more or less understandable!
# [00:55] <fantasai> ...
# [00:55] * fantasai waits for it to show up on the server :/
# [00:55] <dholbert> fantasai, will look. Also: Just noticed the last step said "Set each fozen item’s used size to its target main size." That wants s/fozen/frozen/
# [00:56] <fantasai> heh
# [00:57] <dholbert> fantasai, [looking at your changes in a local checkout of the repo, so I don't have to wait on the web server to update]
# [00:57] <fantasai> lol
# [00:57] <fantasai> so sad...
# [00:57] <dholbert> fantasai, perhaps "s/any flexible item/any item/"?
# [00:58] <fantasai> sure :)
# [00:58] <fantasai> I *think* that's still correct
# [00:58] <dholbert> fantasai, that gets around the fact that "flexible item" isn't well-defined here
# [00:58] <fantasai> :)
# [00:59] <dholbert> any non-flexible item that gets caught up in this would already be being frozen at its hypothetical size by the first bullet-point
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we need to be clearer about using just "frozen" or "non-frozen" item.
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Since we're now freezing the inflexible items.
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# [02:11] <fantasai> trying to rewrite the algorithm to use flex factors again. Just for you, dholbert... :)
# [02:12] <dholbert> fantasai, \o/ Thanks!
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# [02:19] <fantasai> which basically means rewriting half the thing again
# [02:19] <fantasai> I guess we can toss both versions onto the list and see which one is more readable :)
# [02:19] <fantasai> As far as implementation goes, you can do whatever you want as long as it gives the same results
# [02:20] <dholbert> fantasai, cool
# [02:22] <dholbert> fantasai / TabAtkins, thanks for crunching through these!
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# [02:27] <dholbert> fantasai, (note that "as long as it produces the same results" may be hard to detect, if no implementations end up coding to the new version of the algorithm)
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# [02:28] <fantasai> The difference doesn't seem to be that big
# [02:28] <fantasai> But very hard to handle editorially
# [02:28] <fantasai> :/
# [02:31] <dholbert> (It was a non-trivial difference, implementation-wise, at least)
# [02:33] <fantasai> Isn't it just where you apply the normalization?
# [02:33] <fantasai> Editorially, there's a lot of vocabulary-wrangling
# [02:33] <dholbert> In particular, it was the change from well-separated weights (floats) & lengths (integers), to more intermediate weighty-lengthy things
# [02:33] <fantasai> and trying to make tha tmake sense
# [02:34] <fantasai> well, yes, but the complications there aren't ones that would be reflected there
# [02:34] <fantasai> s/there/in the spec/
# [02:34] <fantasai> if I'm understanding correctly
# [02:37] <dholbert> (I'm talking about the switch to managing a "desired free space" per item, which is scaled by the [maybe huge, maybe fractional] flex value)
# [02:38] <dholbert> (and yeah, that's easy enough to spec, but a bit trickier impl-wise, since it means we can't keep space values as being the standard length-type, in UAs with integer-backed lengths)
# [02:38] <dholbert> (and as you said, the larger number of normalization steps introduces error, too)
# [02:39] <dholbert> (since normalization is an imperfect process w/ floats being an imperfect approximation of real numbers)
# [02:40] <dholbert> anyway, I'll let you get back to speccing. :)
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# [02:48] <fantasai> yeah, I can see why internally you'd want to just maintain a reasonable range of weights :)
# [02:52] <dholbert> fantasai, weights, and weighty-lenghty-things
# [02:52] <dholbert> or rather:
# [02:53] <dholbert> "yes, and have a clear separation between what is a weight vs. what is a length, and not directly assign between them"
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# [03:01] <fantasai> I don't think we're assinging between them
# [03:01] <fantasai> There's a flex factor, and there's a desired free space
# [03:01] <dholbert> fantasai, the desired free space is a weighty thing, though
# [03:02] <fantasai> true
# [03:02] <dholbert> fantasai, in that (a) it's got the weight multiplied into it (which could make it ridiculously huge, or ridiculously small)
# [03:02] <dholbert> and (b) it gets normalized
# [03:02] <dholbert> and we do assign from that to the actual final size, in some cases
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# [03:10] <fantasai> if the normalized one happens to be the same as the desired one, yes
# [03:12] <dholbert> right; in the cases where we assign it to the final size, it will happen to be reasonable in magnitude
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# [03:37] <fantasai> dholbert: OK, there should be two versions of the algorithm in the repo now
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# [17:18] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0025.html'
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# [17:18] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:18] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
# [17:18] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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# [17:55] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
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# [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, ??P3 is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, dauwhe, I do not recognize a party named '+??P21'
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# [18:04] <sylvaing__> On any given day there is a CSS or JS conference somewhere
# [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:05] * glazou sylvaing that’s the Sgalineau Axiom of CSS+JS ?
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# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: We have a short adenda. I saw the Flexbox from fantasai Anything beyond that?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to say that it would be good to pub grid next week
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I don't think there's sig changes, mainly jus tthe algorithm. Does anyone want more changes?
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Just an update?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. Mainly was fixing random bugs and the algorithm update
# [18:06] <dael> ??: I'll take a look and give feedback
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P39
# [18:07] <glazou> s/??/rossen
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: I try and create a formal comments list. It's mainly issues from SimonSapin
# [18:07] <kawabata> zakim, ??P39 is kawabata
# [18:07] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Do folks want more time, or are we ready to pub an update?
# [18:07] * dbaron is having trouble with Zakim
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [18:07] * glazou has again many sound issues, relogging
# [18:07] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: So we're okay with pub an update? Any obj?
# [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [18:07] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:07] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish an update WD for Grid
# [18:07] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:08] <dael> ???: No obj but I sent some issues about grid to the ML
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: I'll scan through and fix or mark as issues
# [18:08] <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
# [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: Whitespace in calc()
# [18:08] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: I talked about this more with smfr and I'm okay with making the grammer more complext ot make it simplier for authors
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I can at least make it so you can use + w/o extra spaces
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I can't figure out - without killing keywords in the future
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> calc(auto-2em)
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: In particular I don't know how we'll get above to work
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:09] <Rossen_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0480.html
# [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> calc(1em-2em)
# [18:09] <dael> SimonSapin: I think it's fine if that particular case doesn't work
# [18:09] * leaverou sorry for frequent drops, this wifi is shitty
# [18:10] <astearns> +1 for more consistent (if more limited) rules
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not. If that (above) works I don't know why a keyword wouldn't. I hate rules where you get spaces with a keyword but elsewise not. It's not great ot add spaces, but at least it's one rule they have to remember
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: So I still don't know what to do about this.
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# [18:10] <dbaron> s/get/need/
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: Is smfr on the call?
# [18:10] <dbaron> s/smfr/zcorpan/
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: I don't think so
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: So I guess I have to keep talking to him about this. I'm not sure what he thinks about that case and it's not clear from his notes
# [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. So I'll keep talking to zcorpan
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: Anyone else with ideas/thoughts?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> calc(1-2)
# [18:11] * fantasai agrees withastearns and dbaron
# [18:11] <dael> SimonSapin: What if we remove whitespace restriction, but we don't change ident rules. So in your ex it would be required but not if it's unique
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: So in other words calc (1px - 2px) would work?
# [18:12] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes.
# [18:12] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: I'd like to comment on my message. It seems like we're only looking at tolkenization, not readability
# [18:12] <dael> glazou: message from authors is they don't care about tolkinization so if we only care about that we make confusion
# [18:13] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Simpliest to tolkinize is whitespace everywere and I'm willing to change to for readability, but there's one case that's intriniscally difficult
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Elsewise I'm fine with technichal grammer harder for easier to authors
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> calc(1em+2px)
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine that it's complex enough that above works
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: That's not valid today, but I'm fine makign that valid tomorrow
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I'm okay with that too.
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: Are you okay with making that work but -2px doesn't work
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I want both
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: There's intrinisc issue
# [18:14] <dael> glazou: I want this to work on readability size
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Burdons on our side are insurmountable
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> calc(auto-min-content)
# [18:15] <astearns> s/difficult/impossible, as far as I can tell/ is the crux of the issue
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: I want this to work. It's impl issue, not a blocker
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: This is a blocker. There's no way to pull apart into subtraction of two keywords
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do it in our brain, but not in impl
# [18:15] <dael> glazou: I +1px works and -1px doesn't, people won't know why
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. That's why I hesitate to change + because then - doesn't make sense
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: So maybe we need to think about making - work
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: If we're parsing keywords in calc with - you would stop at shortest known keyword when you get a -
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: That makes tolkinization context dependant
# [18:16] <dael> plinss: It's ugly but could work
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> calc(1px-2em)
# [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: So that's a resonable definition of changing the style
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: So you say alow above b/c units can't have -, but keywords can. Im somewhat against that b/c it's easy to trip over
# [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: I agree, but it it worse than what we have now?
# [18:17] <astearns> if we had keywords 'foo' and 'foo-bar', you would not be able to use 'foo-bar'
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know. Maybe?
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: I don't htink so
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> astearns: Good point.
# [18:18] <dael> glazou: I think anything ti inrease intuitivity on author side is good. We have too many complaints about CSS getting complex with syntax and everything we can remove is good
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree, but there's a problem we can't solve and until we don't I'm prob. not comfortable with making these changes.
# [18:18] <fantasai> Consistency is a tool for navigating complexity.
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: I could be convinced about +, but I'm not sure
# [18:18] <glazou> s/ti inrease/that increase
# [18:18] <fantasai> We shouldn't break consistency in some cases but not others, that introduces more complication.
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: I suggest we make no change for now and continue to discuss how tog et around keyword issues, since we know keywords will work in calc() eventually
# [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: I still think original prop is the best
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: That's the one that req. space with keyword, but elsewise allows you to remove them
# [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes.
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: So it requires space when sub keyword from something.
# [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: Anywhere that you have a - that could be int as a sign, but we only have a few properties where it happens. Where you need a + sign is okay
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: The reason we don't have a problem is that it's traditional to add a space. People do it with bianary math. The tolkinization already exists, but no one hit it before
# [18:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: People are used to inserting whitespace before keyword
# [18:20] <Zakim> +??P52
# [18:21] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p52 is zcorpan
# [18:21] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: No, they're not used to inserting between operator and arguements b/c they don't do it elsewhere. But because - is in valid namespace you have to in CSS
# [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: Maybe
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: That said, I could go with that if the rest of the WG goes with it. It's a nice win overall so it might be worthwhile.
# [18:21] <bkardell_> can we see an example?
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: I suppose we could poll
# [18:21] <dael> glazou: I'm willing to review.
# [18:22] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: How about I outline the exact prop. in the ML and we poll in the next call and I'll accept the WG's decision
# [18:22] <dael> glazou: Fine with me
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: Sounds like a plan.
# [18:22] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:22] <dael> Topic: Publish WD of GCPM
# [18:22] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:22] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
# [18:22] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:22] <dael> dauwhe: Previous is from Nov 2011 and now there's a new editor and much has been move to other specs
# [18:23] <dael> dauwhe: What's left is based on the WG resolution in Paris so I think it's time for an up to date WD
# [18:23] <dael> dauwhe: An impl has joined the WG so I think we can make progress
# [18:23] <fantasai> +1 for publishing
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: Sounds good. Any obj?
# [18:23] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [18:23] <glazou> +1 for publishing
# [18:23] <dael> Bert: So the parts not in GCPM, are they somewhere?
# [18:23] <dael> Bert: I agree they don't belong, but they should be somewhere
# [18:24] <Zakim> +??P55
# [18:24] <dael> dauwhe: I've made notes in the ED about changes from the last. i could easily add something saying where the pieces ended up, some to Page, etc.
# [18:24] <kawabata> zakim, ??P55 is kawabata
# [18:24] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
# [18:24] <dael> dauwhe: Would that address it?
# [18:24] <dael> bert: I see changes have some, maybe should have a bit more
# [18:24] <dael> bert: Otherwise I think you can pub, y es.
# [18:24] <dael> dauwhe: Instead of just saying removed, I can say where it ended up. That's easy
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: One thing I would rec. is keep the section headings in for what was rmeoved and add a note
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: So people using the links land on the note
# [18:25] <dael> dauwhe: I can do that
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: If anything that moved hasn't been pub as an update WD we should do that
# [18:26] <dael> dauwhe: I'll look through that. I'll have to see about maintaining anchors to thinks and I think the structure is somewhat different
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: Just make sure links don't break. When I split text I have a bunch of anchor tags that has a note saying it had moved
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: eventually you can remove the headings and have a note
# [18:26] <dael> dauwhe: I'll look at your examples. Sounds good.
# [18:26] <dael> plinss: Are we okay to resolve with those changes, or want review? Any obj?
# [18:27] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of GCPM
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: dauwhe you've been writing tests?
# [18:27] <dael> dauwhe: Yes, I have quite a few
# [18:27] <dael> dauwhe: I need to check to make sure it's covered
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: I don't see them in shepard
# [18:27] <dael> dauwhe: I uploaded a bunch during TTWF, but I'm not sure what happened in that process. I'll look into it
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: ping me offline if you need help
# [18:27] <dael> dauwhe: Okay. Thanks
# [18:28] <dael> Topic: :modal pseudo-class
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: That was me
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Hixie has been working on modal dialog and the dialog element can be modal or non-modal and it depend on how you call it
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: There's not CSS detectable way to tell if it was displayed as modal, but you clearly want to style differently
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: The suggestion is to add a pseudo-class to detect. The suggested name is :modal
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: how do you make the difference in the dialog?
# [18:29] * Quits: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Signing Off. Buh-bye.")
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Dialog has .show and .show-modal
# [18:29] <dael> glazou: It's unfort. it's not ???
# [18:30] <zcorpan> s/???/an attribute/
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It makes sense to display depending on circumstances. For ex you'd want to display normally usually, but once in a while you want modall
# [18:30] <dael> Bert: Doesn't it make sense to have it display.modal since you'd need to re-display?
# [18:30] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Not really. A modal dialog may want to be styled in more attention getting ways. There's not particular was out where things want to be different
# [18:31] <dael> bert: so let's say I want us JS and have some difs so I want it to display correctly
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Correct, you need JS
# [18:31] <dael> bert: So you need a property for that. You don't need a selector anymore
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: You can do what you need for display. You don't need a new prop
# [18:32] <dael> bert: We don't have pop-ups. We have position, but that's same window. Nothing says this is new
# [18:32] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Right, dailog is in new windows. That's another thing we're letting happen in the web
# [18:32] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [18:32] <astearns> s/dailog/dialog/
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: I agree we need a property, but this is a question of the behaviour, not the display. The behaviour could be either, but the modal can only be invoked through script
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: I'm not convinced we need two methods, I think I'd prefer an atrribute, but I won't object
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: know that's been explosed, like do we do modal attribute, but because there are case where you want to display as either, methods seemed more intuitive
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: You'll need something on dialog saying is it's modal or not
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: It'll have to be somewhere so why not attribute. At some point you'll need one, so I don't absolutely see need for new pseudo
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: What do you mean
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: When you do dialog that can be open modal or not than you want to know how it was open so you need attr.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: No you need a prop
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: I was mentioning attr on an inteface
# [18:35] <bradk> Why not 'display: dialog-modal?'
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: You can't access JS except through pseudo-class
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: The other alt would be that we had a generic pseudo to let you query prop
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: A lot of prop have values that aren't strings/numbers and we couldn't do anything generically in CSS
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do number or boll, but not date
# [18:35] <dael> glazou: Date can be two string
# [18:36] * Quits: rodneyrehm (~rrehm@public.cloak) ("leaving planet earth")
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: But you can't query that usefully, but you can do that with past and future pseduo in queues
# [18:36] <leaverou> btw one problem with :modal is that it applies to the dialog only, so doesn’t help with e.g. adding an overlay (unless one adds it as a pseudo-element on the dialog but that’s tricky)
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: So a lot of things can't be used generically. I'm not opposed to doing that as well, but it would need future thought
# [18:36] <dael> ???: I think it seems scary to be able to select based on a property b/c that can have a side effect
# [18:37] <zcorpan> s/???/zcorpan/
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Oh. That is true. IN that case I don't want to get into that can of worms without a lot more thought
# [18:37] <dael> plinss: We don't want to jsut throw it in there, but it's work exploring. Perhaps as a note in a future level of selectors
# [18:37] <dael> plinss: Short term :modal may be way to go
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: And I'm fine with adding a note that we'd like to explored generic property access
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: So any objection to adding :modal or better names?
# [18:38] <dael> Bert: I'd like to see a comparision to other things we might add like stretch text and tool tips
# [18:38] <dael> bert: I'd like tos ee a framework for all of those, not just add one and deal with the others late. Think of all the ways display might happen
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: I have a related. Modality can be dependant, a sub dialog, etc. Do you expect pseudo for all these?
# [18:39] <Zakim> -kawabata
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Dialog on top of everything is already going on so it would be a prop. We've discussed this internally, I jsut need to prop.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Slaving an element or something will happen at prop
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: That doesn't happen with modal b/c it's a strange interaction that can be flippedo n or off
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: More importantly you want to style differently and if modal is a prop you can't do different
# [18:40] <dael> zcorpan: Modal is top layer
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: That's something we anticipate baking into CSS, but it's not a magic sqitch, jsut a new value or prop added to positioning
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Basically, other aspects of dialogs that are magical will be done through styling, but if you're modal you want to base styling on that which is why we're asking to add it to selectors
# [18:41] <dael> plinss: So back to the question, any obj?
# [18:41] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: What I said also addresses Bert's comment. Other things like tool tips aren't what you want to be selecting on.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: So back to any obj?
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: Not hearing objections. Is this 3 or 4?
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: 4. Or did you mean between 4 and 5?
# [18:42] <dael> plinss: Yes
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Given that it's being impl now I think 4 is okay but if people obj to that, I'm okay with 5
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: This is something people want to expose in their impl.
# [18:43] <dael> RESOLVED: Add :modal to selectors level 4
# [18:43] <dael> Topic: Flexbox
# [18:43] <dael> plinss: there's an open issue in the DoC?
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: You want to handle that fantasai?
# [18:43] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1/issues-lc-20140325
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: Here's the issues list
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I think Rossen_ sent a comment that we need to add to the list
# [18:43] <dael> SimonSapin: I have one more
# [18:44] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Rossen_/
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: This is everything filed since last call. That one that's open is alt wording for length
# [18:44] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:44] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: So before it was discont between 0 and non-0 and we made a change and pub the LC. However when TabAtkins made the change he shipped based on concept of desired size
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: Rather than operating on flex values and normalizing them and once normal doing the mult.
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: That's a shift from CR text but in impl it's better dealing with rounding because you have a constrained range
# [18:45] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#resolve-flexible-lengths
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: Both are in spec with all the various bug fixes. We folded bugs into both options.
# [18:45] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0028.html
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: Question is what's easier to read and did you notice any difference in results since that would indicates a bug
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: We'd like review and don't want to CR today, but we likely need a 2nd LC since there were a bunch of normative changes to fix bugs
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: There's the issue from Rossen_ right now and that's it for DoC
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: So I think we're asking for LC with both algorithms and impl will give us input on which to keep. We'll ask for CR after next F2F
# [18:47] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: If anyone is holding off on issues, we'd like to address those
# [18:47] <dael> SimonSapin: If this is feedback from all browsers, it sounds reasonable
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: So to be clear, you're asking for LC?
# [18:47] <krit> s/SimonSapin/krit/
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I'm asking if anyone has issues they haven't filed
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Except Rossen_'s
# [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: I'm filing it now
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Anyone expecting issues?
# [18:48] <dael> krit: Maybe. We haven't found anything jarring so I'm not expecting any major delay, but I'm not willing to say no issues
# [18:48] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:48] <krit> s/krit/Rossen_/
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: So I suggest we pub LC next week Tues or Thurs and that will be a short LC since the things that have changed are in this one page section
# [18:48] * krit I think
# [18:48] * sylvaing__ is now known as sgalineau
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: So I suggest Thurs witha resolution next telecon.
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: So you want to hold off on recording the resolution till next week?
# [18:49] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:49] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. If there are any issues, please record them ASAP so we can address before next week
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Fo a few more days we can address things with alacrity
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: OKay. That's the end of the agenda.
# [18:49] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:49] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: F2F is coming quick, so please add topics. I know we get a flurry of comments at the end, but sooner would be better.
# [18:50] * glazou replies AAAAHH too
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: I hve a question
# [18:50] * sgalineau fantasai's margin collapsed
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Since we were working an baseline I was thinking of taking a pass on line-layout.
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Does anyone have concerns about me editing?
# [18:50] <dael> SimonSapin: I have comments, but no concerns
# [18:51] <dael> SteveZ: I don't have any concerns. I didn't e-mail
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: Okay. I'll look it over. I'm not going to address issues, I'm just going to clean up
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: I'll bring it more into alignment
# [18:51] <dael> ???: I'm interested in initial caps area.
# [18:51] <fantasai> dave cramer
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: I'll be mostly ignoring that
# [18:52] <dael> SteveZ: I would be too. I don't think it belongs
# [18:52] <astearns> s/???/dauwhe/
# [18:52] <dael> dauwhe: There's a lot of interesting in publishing since current is horrible
# [18:52] <dael> SteveZ: It involves problems of aspect ratio
# [18:52] <dael> dauwhe: And authors knowing height of particular cap
# [18:53] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:53] <dael> SteveZ: Often you'll want to align to the form underneatha nd maybe with linegrid it would be easier
# [18:53] <dael> dauwhe: Is there a natural way to have it fall out of grid, or does it need to be seperate
# [18:53] <dael> SteveZ: I think seperate. Main problemw as you wanted to position baseline of initial cap and set distances so it covered even number of lines
# [18:54] <dael> dauwhe: Yes, there was a desire to get initial value of the cap lined up in advance
# [18:54] <dael> SteveZ: Body height and face height can be different for diff fonts and that would affect appearance
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds like something that can be automated with linegrid
# [18:54] <dael> dauwhe: I think I can get interest from impl on this subject. People at iBooks are interested
# [18:55] <dael> ???: As you know we've been playing with text flowing around a big cap. Seeing the author-facing notes would be very useful
# [18:55] <astearns> s/???/sylvaing/
# [18:55] <glazou> s/??/sgalineau
# [18:55] <dael> SteveZ: Since you want to do dropcaps and fantasai doesn't, does it make sense to split it?
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure where it goes best, but we can co-edit
# [18:55] <fantasai> don't have to split the spec in order to both work on parts of it :)
# [18:55] <dael> dauwhe: I was thinking I could do a rough-cut and get whats there to a point where it's easier to discuss
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: So dauwhe are you willing to be a co-editor?
# [18:56] <dael> dauwhe: Yes. As long as I don't have to be expect on everything
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not like any of us are
# [18:56] <dael> dauwhe: Everything I've seen with this group leads me to believe otherwise
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: So any obj to fantasai and dauwhe being added as editor to line layout?
# [18:56] <dael> SteveZ: I assume I'm still there.
# [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: yes
# [18:57] <dael> SteveZ: I think John dropped off
# [18:57] <Zakim> -??P1
# [18:57] <dael> krit: He doesn't reply to e-mails.
# [18:57] * sgalineau will keep working on dropcaps until someone considers them harmful
# [18:57] * glazou seems we have a cat on the call
# [18:57] * glazou heard a meoooow
# [18:57] <dael> RESOLVED: Add fantasai and dauwhe as editors to line layout
# [18:57] <dael> plinss: Should someone ping John?
# [18:57] * leaverou glazou: I thought it was a baby!
# [18:57] <dael> SteveZ: Well he can't because he dropped from the group.
# [18:57] <dael> plinss: Okay, he'll be a former editor
# [18:57] * TabAtkins That was my cat being weird.
# [18:57] * sgalineau glazou, if all you do is herd cats all you hear is cats
# [18:58] <dael> SteveZ: I think the process requires editors to be in the group
# [18:58] <Zakim> +??P1
# [18:58] <dael> plinss: I guess that's it. Thanks everyone.
# [18:58] * sgalineau all the dbarons speak at once
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I won't be around next week.
# [18:58] <dael> glazou: I have one more. Technically John Daggett is still in the WG
# [18:58] <dael> SteveZ: I thought he resigned
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: We left daily work, but the Mozilla rep, dbaron, never removed him
# [18:59] <dael> glazou: So he's a member.
# [18:59] <dael> SteveZ: Okay. so he can stay editor
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
# [18:59] <dael> SteveZ: dbaron would you find out if John wants to stay?
# [18:59] <dael> dbaron: I can ask.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [18:59] * Quits: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:59] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:59] <Zakim> -??P17
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:59] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:59] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:59] <dael> plinss: Thanks everyone. We'll talk next week.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:59] <Zakim> -??P1
# [18:59] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:59] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SGalineau
# [18:59] <Zakim> -AH_Miller
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:59] <Zakim> -murakami
# [18:59] * Parts: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [18:59] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:00] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:00] * Parts: kawabata (~uid24584@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, plinss, astearns, dauwhe, AH_Miller, SimonSapin, Rossen_, murakami, krit, Bert, bradk, TabAtkins, [Microsoft], gregwhitworth, SGalineau, Lea,
# [19:00] <Zakim> ... BrianKardell, hober, fantasai, kawabata, dbaron, SteveZ, zcorpan
# [19:00] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) (bradk)
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# [19:06] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0040.html
# [19:09] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:09] <fantasai> 11:14 <Rossen_> The current spec didn't really address the issue IMO
# [19:09] <fantasai> 11:16 <Rossen_> the problem happens when the flex items have undefined cross size, intrinsic ratio and stretch in the cross direction
# [19:09] <fantasai> 11:16 <Rossen_> the current spec considers only the case of the item having a "a definite cross size"
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# [19:18] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [19:18] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [19:22] <fantasai> We could have that happen at used value time, or at computed value time
# [19:22] <fantasai> (conversion of flex-basis: auto to flex-basis: <width>)
# [19:23] <fantasai> ...
# [19:23] * fantasai couldn't hear
# [19:23] <fantasai> ~_~
# [19:33] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [19:34] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Hm, everyone left the call.
# [19:39] <fantasai> ?
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> <f><i><a>...
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> <flexbox><item><abspos>
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> <containing-block><flexbox><item><abspos>
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# [20:02] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [20:03] <krit> fantasai: sent an email to www-style about CSS Masking could you read it?
# [20:05] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:08] <fantasai> ok
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# [20:15] <fantasai> krit: wr mask-source type?
# [20:15] <fantasai> krit: I think if we can have it just be mask-xyz rather than mask-source-xyz, that might be better, but otherwise don't have a good idea
# [20:15] <fantasai> :/
# [20:17] <fantasai> maybe mask-value: alpha | luminance | auto?
# [20:17] <fantasai> mask-border-value
# [20:17] <fantasai> meh
# [20:17] <fantasai> that's prolly confusing
# [20:17] * fantasai is wondering if there's a term more specific to what alpha and luminance are
# [20:20] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:26] <krit> fantasai: It was to come up even with mask-source-type in the first place
# [20:26] <krit> fantasai: and mask-image-type might sound like mask-image gets a shorthand
# [20:26] * Zakim krit, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:27] <krit> Zakim: I am sorry
# [20:28] <krit> fantasai: operation might be a description: mask-operation
# [20:28] <krit> fantasai: mask-border-operation?
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# [20:33] <fantasai> mask-channel?
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# [20:33] <fantasai> krit: also, mask-image-type might make it sound like you're describing the image type, not the mask type...
# [20:34] <krit> fantasai: true
# [20:34] <krit> fantasai: channel doesn't seem right, or at least just true for alpha masking
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# [21:09] <fantasai> krit: anyway, for mask-composit...
# [21:10] <fantasai> krit: there was some discussion originally, when we were discussing it, about different operators, but also the potential need for grouping
# [21:10] <fantasai> krit: Is that something that's might be necessary later?
# [21:11] <krit> fantasai: there were discussions about grouping layers for compositing, that is correct. Some like cabanier__ would like to see that to apply compositing to a set of images with another set of images
# [21:11] <krit> fantasai: that would affect the list in mask-image though
# [21:12] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0875.html
# [21:12] <fantasai> krit: right...
# [21:12] <fantasai> krit: is that something we need to think about now, then?
# [21:12] <krit> fantasai: I am not sure if it would necessarily affect the naming of mask-<type>
# [21:13] <fantasai> krit: oh, well def not
# [21:13] <krit> fantasai: if it would, then yes
# [21:13] <fantasai> krit: but the syntax of mask-composit
# [21:13] <fantasai> krit: or of layering in general
# [21:13] <krit> fantasai: no, don't think so
# [21:14] <fantasai> krit: what would grouping look like, if we added it?
# [21:15] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [21:15] <krit> fantasai: there wasn't a suggestion yet. maybe group(<image> <image>, <operation>) ??
# [21:15] <krit> fantasai: it is purely speculative
# [21:17] * fantasai ponders using mathematical symbols
# [21:18] <fantasai> (<image> + <image> - <image>) & <image>
# [21:18] <fantasai> but I think we stack in reverse order
# [21:18] <fantasai> so that's gonna be odd
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# [21:21] <fantasai> hm, maybe not
# [21:22] <fantasai> maybe notation would go forward
# [21:22] <fantasai> just like normal
# [21:22] <fantasai> but commas still separate a reverse-ordered list
# [21:23] <fantasai> and then we can make filter functions be equivalent to parentheses and have an image-description sub-language in CSS!
# [21:23] <fantasai> woo
# [21:24] * fantasai goes to clean up the kitchen and get out of here
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# [23:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [23:12] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
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# [23:26] <krit> fantasai: well, maybe lets discuss this at the next F2F :P
# [23:27] <krit> fantasai: I am sure everyone will be happy to have a sub-language in CSS
# Session Close: Thu May 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)