/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-05-15 / end

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  92. # [19:28] <liam> astearns_, ping_?
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  95. # [19:47] <astearns_> liam: heya
  96. # [19:47] <liam> astearns_, time for a quick chat (IRC is fine) about footnotes?
  97. # [19:48] <astearns_> liam: very short - I'm off to the airport soon
  98. # [19:48] <liam> i was wondering about describing "float: footnote" in terms of named flows into a predefined region/flow-thingy called "footnotes"
  99. # [19:49] <liam> so as to be able to support multiple footnote regions in the future
  100. # [19:49] <astearns_> I am in favor of a footnote area, rather than overloading some sort of float:bottom with footnotes
  101. # [19:49] <liam> ok, thanks, was just that quick sanity check i needed
  102. # [19:50] <astearns_> ok - I'm not entirely convinced we need to bake something into CSS specifically for footnotes, though :)
  103. # [19:53] <liam> i think we do, willing to be convinced otherwise
  104. # [19:53] <liam> constraints re. overflow, same page as reference, duplicate footnotes, inline/block based on available space & size, could all be lower-level concepts though
  105. # [19:54] <liam> footnotes are currently part of GCPM and are implemented, but the spec is really sucky
  106. # [19:55] <liam> it's a "oh, we need footnotes for this book, let's do just enough for that and overload float because I like overloading float" sort of deal and won't work well for i18n or for marginalia
  107. # [19:55] <liam> anyway, don't let me keep you from the airport :-)
  108. # [19:57] <astearns_> sorry - was on the phone for a sec
  109. # [19:58] <astearns_> I definitely see the need for footnotes in print formatters
  110. # [19:58] <liam> i'm with frank roman, the printed word is not dead
  111. # [19:58] <astearns_> whether that feature migrates to browsers is a separate question
  112. # [19:58] <liam> it just looks that way because it doesn't move.
  113. # [19:58] <astearns_> heh
  114. # [19:59] <liam> ebook readers also need to handle footnotes, although not clear on the best way yet
  115. # [19:59] <astearns_> the only thing clear to me there is that the current methods aren't the best way :)
  116. # [19:59] <liam> pop-ups are not always a good answer, esp. for tablet-size or larger, as you really want to glance at the note while reading
  117. # [19:59] <liam> yes
  118. # [20:00] <astearns_> I'm mostly happy to defer to dauwhe on footnotes, since he actually uses them
  119. # [20:01] <liam> i'm hoping to write up some of the issues (as i've been doing on my blog for drop caps, http://barefootliam.blogspot.ca/ with dauwhe watching) but wanted to check with you about regions
  120. # [20:01] <liam> regions for footnotes i mean
  121. # [20:01] <astearns_> it seems like book.js and some win8 reading apps have been able to handle footnotes using just regions and javascript
  122. # [20:02] <astearns_> the regions apis are sufficient to do footnotes (and other marginalia) fairly well
  123. # [20:02] <astearns_> but then ereaders would need to allow script
  124. # [20:02] <dauwhe> I wasn't paying attention to IRC, and all of the sudden we're talking about footnotes.
  125. # [20:02] <liam> dauwhe, :)
  126. # [20:03] <liam> had not seen bookjs, looking
  127. # [20:03] <dauwhe> I'm happy with any approach that has sound foundations.
  128. # [20:03] <astearns_> I must go, unfortunately. I'll be back tomorrow on Seoul time
  129. # [20:04] <dauwhe> astearns: happy travels. I'll probably be the last one to Seoul--my flight arrives late Sunday evening :(
  130. # [20:05] <dauwhe> liam: I would like some syntax in CSS so people don't have to "roll their own" with regions, and we don't want to entirely alienate the formatters.
  131. # [20:05] <liam> +1
  132. # [20:06] <liam> but i'd also be happy to have that defined in terms of lower-level facilities like regions and same-page constraints
  133. # [20:06] <dauwhe> I'm thinking one way to proceed would be to keep very simple footnotes in GCPM with something resembling the current syntax...
  134. # [20:07] <dauwhe> and then add multiple regions, sidenotes, multi-col issues in the next level
  135. # [20:07] <liam> and want it to be possible to have 2 or more streams of footnotes with a separator between them when both are present
  136. # [20:07] <dauwhe> agree.
  137. # [20:07] <liam> i'm ok with multiple footnote streams in next level, sure, but don't want the design today to preclude doing it in a sane way, that's the difficulty with the current design
  138. # [20:09] <liam> similarly table & column footnotes, e.g. multilingual side-byside docs, can't just say float: footnote;
  139. # [20:10] <dauwhe> yep. don't want to spec ourselves into a corner.
  140. # [20:12] * liam hoping to send some notes to www-style this week on footnotes, citing the work you've done & some of the use cases people are solving today in XSL-FO (as I'm partly here to help make CSS ready for XSL-FO people to use!)
  141. # [20:13] * dauwhe great. I really want to hear from Murakami, as I have no insight into implementation.
  142. # [20:13] <liam> yeah, i've worked on footnote code in the past, it was exciting :)
  143. # [20:14] <liam> infinite loops in corner cases!
  144. # [20:14] <dauwhe> I should go back and read Knuth about it.
  145. # [20:18] <liam> watch that Don Knuth really tried too hard to reduce typesetting to mathematics - there's stuff in TeX that doesn't work for unattended formatting, because you get to undefined parts of dynamic programming curves or whatever
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The end :)