/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-05-27 / end

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  7. # [02:22] <dauwhe> TabAtkins: Mr. Random Nonsense also had a Google Group where he was the only poster: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/venividicognitus
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  24. # [07:40] * Topic is 'http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seoul-2014#agenda - https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/5412617925660825345'
  25. # [07:40] * Set by plinss on Wed May 21 02:02:30
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  29. # [08:58] <rodneyrehm> moin moin
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  61. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> dauwhe: That's just sad.
  62. # [19:22] <liam> only poster is OK. only poster and no listeners is sad.
  63. # [19:23] <liam> (if the poster is in fact human. I felt no sadness for the demise of Markov R Cheny, Rob Pike's Usenet bot)
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  66. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> It looks *slightly* too patterned to be a bot. But what do I know.
  67. # [19:33] <liam> yeah, i think it's probably human too
  68. # [19:34] <liam> but i'm not sure
  69. # [19:34] <liam> I had a paper to review for a conference once that i thought was written by a bot
  70. # [19:34] <liam> the conference chair later told me it was a human and all his email was written in the same style
  71. # [19:35] <liam> like a long-winded professor of philosophy with a severe case of ADHD
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  74. # [19:39] <krit> liam: TabAtkins: So he/she doesn't pass the Turing test?
  75. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> krit: It's a very close thing. They're not actively interacting with anyone yet, so hard to tell.
  76. # [19:46] <liam> krit: command not understood.
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  82. # [20:12] <dauwhe> liam: I spent some time in the Seoul airport randomly looking at Korean-language books. I never saw a drop cap, or any sort of first-line or first-letter treatment.
  83. # [20:16] <krit> dauwhe: it is not necessarily common in most latin-letter books as well. More genre specific maybe.
  84. # [20:16] <krit> dauwhe: or magazines
  85. # [20:20] <dauwhe> krit: very common in U.S. trade books and magazines (five of six books I just randomly grabbed). Trying to discover alignment rules for non-Latin scripts.
  86. # [20:20] <krit> dauwhe: so maybe more a "regional" thing :D
  87. # [20:21] <krit> dauwhe: It definitely occurs in books in german as well but it is not the majority
  88. # [20:21] <dauwhe> krit: Good to know! We've found examples from Arabic and Japanese, but nothing in Hangul.
  89. # [20:23] <dauwhe> krit: I had no idea when I signed up for this I'd be worrying about Korean typography, or ligatures in Arabic ^_^
  90. # [20:24] <krit> dauwhe: haha, that is the biggest problem about everything font/text related
  91. # [20:25] <krit> dauwhe: everyone does it differently.... even more chaotic if you look at the real regional languages that are spoken and written by a couple of thousand people
  92. # [20:27] <dauwhe> krit: Everyone needs to promise not to show me any examples of Klingon typography :)
  93. # [20:27] <krit> dauwhe: this was a really interesting talk about a thai language that is not part of unicode yet: http://unifont.org/lgm2014/
  94. # [20:28] <krit> dauwhe: not sure if klingons care enough about typography... so you might be lucky
  95. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I only see drop caps in a subset of fantasy books, and occasionally in some "fancier" newspapers, in English. It's not super-common.
  96. # [20:30] * dauwhe it's quite common in newspapers/magazines. The Sunday NYTimes magazine had a bug in their system that resulted in the cleartext xmltag:dropcap; being published.
  97. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Ha
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  101. # [21:19] <sgalineau> Definitely see dropcaps a lot in mags - NYT mag, The Atlantic, Wired, Rolling Stones...I think it's easy to miss them when they're used consistently, at a moderate size and without extra effects
  102. # [21:24] <sgalineau> netmag uses symbols as a dropcap regularly (a dot or a right-angled bracket)
  103. # [21:24] <sgalineau> like here http://blog.stationfour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/blog-3.jpg
  104. # [21:26] <sgalineau> The Economist, of course. Two-line dropcap has been the norm there for a long time though I haven't checked the print edition in a while
  105. # [21:26] <sgalineau> http://users.monash.edu.au/~lyeo/Dr_Leslie_Yeo/EHD_Flows_files/TeaLeafParadox_Economist_print2.jpg
  106. # [21:27] <sgalineau> People magazine: http://www.shineon-media.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/demipeople.jpg
  107. # [21:34] <sgalineau> To be honest, I too thought it wasn't super-common (even though I always loved the things). I suspect this is due to 90% of my reading happening online or through a Kindle. Completely skewed my perspective. Once I hit a newsstand for paper mags, this stuff was absolutely everywhere.
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  110. # [21:43] * dauwhe sgalineau: sounds like Douglas Waterfall will be at my preso on Thursday (I'm on a panel with Chris Kitchener). Chris said I should pitch CSS drop caps to Douglas.
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  114. # [21:59] <liam> sgalineau, yes, very widely used, but as you say, they can become almost invisible when they work properly
  115. # [21:59] <sgalineau> liam: yes. That and the fact that they do not exist on the web and it's easy to think of them as an exotic rarity after a while
  116. # [22:00] <sgalineau> liam: when in fact it's easy to prove they're quire prevalent
  117. # [22:00] <liam> yes
  118. # [22:01] <sgalineau> going through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_magazines_by_circulation for the US, finding examples of them in all the top mags
  119. # [22:01] <liam> a very early css draft had text saying to get a 3 line drop cap you just mulitply the size by three, and i sent back detailed comments and a diagram that i was told was on a w3c whiteboard somewhere for a long time
  120. # [22:01] <sgalineau> National Geographic, Reader's Digest...it's dropcaps all the way down
  121. # [22:02] <liam> sgalineau, once a feature like that has support in InDesign and Quark, you can expect it to be widespread... you can tell when magazines switched to InDesign by when they started using hung punctuation, by and large
  122. # [22:04] * sgalineau admits he still hasn't used InDesign. Will probably be punished by astearns.
  123. # [22:04] <liam> i think Atex probably supported drop caps too, for newspapers and magazines in the 1980s and onwards
  124. # [22:04] <liam> indesign is like Windows Notepad but with formatting :-) :-)
  125. # [22:05] <sgalineau> I'll assume you're referring to Notepad's popularity...
  126. # [22:06] <liam> :-) the relevant thing is indesign + quark represent a huge proportion of trade publishing; there's some other software used for magazines/newspapers, and for financial and tech docs of course (including Adobe FrameMaker)
  127. # [22:07] <liam> and of course systems like AntennaHouse XSL-FO formatter
  128. # [22:07] <liam> (which is why I joined CSS - to try and help bridge the gap between what people are doing today with XSL-FO and what CSS could do)
  129. # [22:08] <dauwhe> As I said, a majority of our books use them in some form... if not dropped then raised.
  130. # [22:09] * liam nods
  131. # [22:10] <astearns> dauwhe: definitely talk to Douglas Waterfall about drop caps, but expect that he'll be more interested in what works in browsers now than future features
  132. # [22:11] <dauwhe> Right now I'm a bit concerned about excluding around the dropped character. Will depend on the character (whether it has descender or not).
  133. # [22:11] <liam> my partner and i have been working through the 50 "Canada Reads" winners - but so far two Penguin imprints and one Coach House Press (which actually used a stock image they bought from me, by coincidence)
  134. # [22:12] <liam> yes. Douglas Waterfall might be able to get examples from India?
  135. # [22:12] <liam> you have to exclude the bounding box in general, unless you have the ability to turn the glyph outline into an exclusion shape
  136. # [22:12] <astearns> liam: perhaps - he works with Indian programmers mostly, not Indian typographers :)
  137. # [22:12] <liam> astearns, yeah, point :)
  138. # [22:13] <liam> drop caps in CSS means they'll come to epub though. along with footnotes maybe!
  139. # [22:14] <dauwhe> liam: can't exclude around em-square or most regular letters won't work. Using floats in CSS, I sometimes have to put a negative bottom margin on the drop cap to let text run around the bottom.
  140. # [22:16] <liam> no, glyph bounding box not em square
  141. # [22:16] <liam> yes, -ve margin needed for same reason some of the bruce rogers examples have too much space under the initial, because he didn't have a proper titling font to hand
  142. # [22:16] <liam> or chose not to use one to illustrate that point
  143. # [22:17] <dauwhe> glyph bounding box would be a good start.
  144. # [22:18] <sgalineau> someday, shape-outside could be derived from a glyph. it's doable today, with some hoops
  145. # [22:18] <sgalineau> agree that glyph bounding box + proper baseline alignment seems the starting point
  146. # [22:20] <liam> in my blog diagrams i should have done ones showing the glyph bb and character advance metrics as well as drop cap align points, but it was getting messy as it was
  147. # [22:20] <dauwhe> I need to work up some examples where the drop cap font is very different from the text font.
  148. # [22:20] <sgalineau> oh wait, what's the diff between glyph bounding box and em-square?
  149. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> The glyph bounding box is usually not an em wide or tall, and not a square?
  150. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> The em square is a square 1em to the side.
  151. # [22:20] <dauwhe> draw the smallest box the actual letter will fit in.
  152. # [22:20] <liam> TabAtkins, right
  153. # [22:21] <sgalineau> check. so the width would be the advance of the glyph, for instance
  154. # [22:21] <liam> well, that should indeed be the width but it's not the same as the width of the bounding box
  155. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Probably, but I'm not sure whether the advance is always the width used for the glyph bounding box or not.
  156. # [22:21] <liam> e.g. consider an italic "f"
  157. # [22:22] <sgalineau> right. there is a fun definition to come up with here...
  158. # [22:22] <liam> (or a regular "f" in Bembo)
  159. # [22:22] <liam> or the tail of the Q in Simoncini Caslon
  160. # [22:22] <SimonSapin> if the glyph bounding box is based on "ink", it’s not necessarily the same as the advance metric
  161. # [22:23] <sgalineau> as an approximation, the computed width/height of a <span> containing only that glyph?
  162. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's related to the measure.
  163. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> advance, rather.
  164. # [22:23] <sgalineau> I ended up using canvas to get the width for my dropcap shapes prototype
  165. # [22:23] <dauwhe> we need a whiteboard.
  166. # [22:23] <liam> getting it right for J and Q and f requires either access to the glyph bounding box (generally available in font APIs) or the actual glyph outline
  167. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> sgalineau: By finding the last column that changes value in at least one pixel when you draw the glyph?
  168. # [22:24] <sgalineau> or TextMetrics.width
  169. # [22:24] <sgalineau> nah, used TextMetrics
  170. # [22:25] <liam> that will be the advance width i imagine
  171. # [22:25] <sgalineau> I think so
  172. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah, likely.
  173. # [22:25] <liam> try with a 5-line italic "f" to see.
  174. # [22:25] <sgalineau> given the shenanigans involved in figuring out the baseline I didn't want to also iterate over image data
  175. # [22:26] <liam> yeah, the drop cap code i wrote years ago has heuristics to get the x height and cap height
  176. # [22:27] <liam> and did binary search to get the font size, because the screen renderer rounded sizes to the nearest pixel and "blue zone" hints could also move the x and cap heights around
  177. # [22:27] * sgalineau always loved how 'heuristics' makes 'crazy guessing' sound nearly scientific
  178. # [22:27] <liam> :) :)
  179. # [22:28] <dauwhe> I've been working on finding a formula for getting the correct size for the float approach. Easy for the drop cap size. Much harder to get the proper line height on the float.
  180. # [22:28] <dauwhe> Different browsers do very different things with text in a float.
  181. # [22:28] <liam> especially if the text lines aren't all the same size
  182. # [22:28] <liam> e.g. there's a superscript, or a font size change
  183. # [22:29] <dauwhe> Layout programs generally have a parameter that tells where the first text baseline is in relation to the box.
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The end :)