/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-07-02 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 02 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:29] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/02-css-irc
# [17:29] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:29] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
# [17:29] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:30] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0021.html'
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# [17:50] * fantasai waves
# [17:50] <glazou> hi fantasai
# [17:50] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [17:51] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:51] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [17:52] * plh regrets from me
# [17:52] <glazou> ok plh
# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:53] <Zakim> + +1.617.477.aaaa
# [17:53] <Zakim> - +1.617.477.aaaa
# [17:53] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [17:53] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.477.aaaa
# [17:53] <glazou> a short call for the MIT apparently :-)
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:55] <Zakim> +??P5
# [17:55] <Zakim> -??P5
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [17:55] <Zakim> Attendees were
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# [17:56] <glazou> wow
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# [17:56] <glazou> Orange says the phone number above is unreachable
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# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +33.1.34.51.aaaa
# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [17:58] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.617.477.aabb
# [17:58] <fantasai> Zakim, aabb is fantasai
# [17:58] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:59] <fantasai> ? from Antenna House?
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [17:59] <Zakim> +Lea
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# [17:59] <glazou> fantasai, Alex Critchfield
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P22
# [17:59] <fantasai> glazou, IRC nick?
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P25
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P25 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.240.421.aacc
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ?P22 is adenilson
# [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P24
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is AH_Miller
# [18:00] <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it
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# [18:00] <alex_antennahouse> hello everyone
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P22 is adenilson
# [18:00] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
# [18:01] <fantasai> Zakim, [IPcaller] is alex_antennahouse
# [18:01] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> zakim, aadd is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:01] <murakami> Zakim, ??P24 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
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# [18:01] * TabAtkins What's the "tell zakim your phone number permanently" link?
# [18:01] <MaRakow> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
# [18:02] <astearns> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
# [18:02] <astearns> TabAtkins: ^
# [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [18:03] <TabAtkins> Danke, astearns
# [18:03] <SimonSapin> unfortunately http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 has no equivalent for SIP
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.720.897.aaff
# [18:03] <glazou> right
# [18:03] <glenn> zakim, aaff is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
# [18:03] <tantek> +1 on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0453.html
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: Let's start
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: First thing, before the extra items, I sent a message about the re-chartering
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: I remind you that both individual members and invited experts must rejoin.
# [18:04] <dael> glazou: YOu have 45 days or else you're removed automatically
# [18:04] <fantasai> tantek, ?
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: Any extra items to discuss?
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aagg
# [18:05] <dael> Topic: CSS3 Text Issues
# [18:05] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0439.html
# [18:05] <fantasai> tantek, nm
# [18:05] <dael> glazou: I think there's a message that fantasai sent from Jonathan Kew
# [18:05] <TabAtkins> Sorry, I was muted a second ago. Agenda+ for max/min-font-size?
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# [18:05] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aahh is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +koji; got it
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# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: Basically we have an issue on if we should display control characters. Currently browsers don't and this message argues we should to expose broken pages and get them fixed
# [18:06] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P26
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: koji and I don't have a strong opinion so we want working group opinions. If we make the change it will require a change to all impl
# [18:06] <abinader> Zakim, ??P26 is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [18:06] <dael> ??: Is this proposed as a style property?
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> s/??/glenn/
# [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:07] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: We're not prop as a style prop. We don't see a use case for control, this is about default behaviour
# [18:07] <leaverou> isn’t this something that should be defined in the host language?
# [18:07] <dael> glenn: I would suggest a defaul of presenting control char is wrong. I think the author could choose to display
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: The point of the thread was authors don't want diplay, they do it accidently. You never want control characters to display. There's silent data corruption because they're left accidently
# [18:08] <fantasai> leaverou, no, not really. If the host language wnats them to go away, it should preprocess them away. CSS is what says how text is displayed
# [18:08] <dael> TabAtkins: If the default stays as don't display, it doesn't solve the request and having an author able to choose doesn't help either.
# [18:09] <dael> glenn: For ex in unicode there's many control char...
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: No.
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: We're talking about the block of 32 after ascii
# [18:09] <fantasai> fantasai: default-ignorable characters are not affected
# [18:09] <dael> glenn: C1 controls only.
# [18:09] <dael> glenn: So there's no semantic controls assigned to those?
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: Certainly not on the web.
# [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: If they were havign them stay invisable isn't great.
# [18:09] <dael> glenn: So I wouldn't obj to the C1 char but it seems a special case.
# [18:10] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: It is because all the others are marked by unicode to ignore. These aren't so at the moment by ignoring them we somewhat violating unicode.
# [18:10] <Zakim> +??P11
# [18:10] * fantasai wants to hear from browser vendors
# [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: Since other parts of the tech stack don't ignore them, but browsers do we should help them realize there was a mistake.
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:11] <koji> I believe his proposal includes C0 too
# [18:11] * leaverou wonders how many websites would start looking broken if this change goes through
# [18:11] <dael> glazou: Is there anything else to say about this? I'm a bit lost.
# [18:11] <dael> glenn: [reads koji comment]
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: Includes all the characters that aren't default to ignore or CSS whitespace
# [18:12] <dael> glenn: Is there a default display for C1 control characters?
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: No, but I think that we would say they must render some kind of glyph, be that a missing character glyph or the corrisponding symbol or what...
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: As an ex my box right now renders c0 as their tiny name in a diagonal row across an m-box.
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Might be a special font. Browsers can have default fonts that render or they get a last resort character.
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: Basically render and be treated as visible for render and line breaking
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: Key thing is do we display or continue to ignore? I'd like to hear from broswers.
# [18:13] <dael> glenn: I think we should hear from unicode or i18n
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: unicode says display
# [18:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, Wikipedia uses these separate code points: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/control_pictures/list.htm
# [18:14] <dael> koji: I talked to unicode list and they said we should display in identities like URL and says the effects shouldn't applyt o CSS rendering
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: We're a higher level protical so we can do what's appropriate.
# [18:14] <koji> http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2014-July/000801.html
# [18:14] <dael> glenn: But if we think appropriate is the opposite of them, it's worht considering
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: Any opinion from browser vendors? Do they need more time? Not care?
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: As much as a represent a browser vendor, which is only slightly, I'm fine witht he change
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: Do you want them to display?
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd rather have them display. Or be default ignorable so they're ignored by everything. This halfway is no good
# [18:15] <dael> fantasai: Microsoft?
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen_: I have to check with the font guy.
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: Opinions for Apple or Mozilla? Opinion, more time?
# [18:16] <dael> dbaron: Jonathan works for us so I think that's a clear opinion. There might be other who disagree with him.
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: But not you
# [18:16] <dael> dbaron: I don't have a trong opinion, but tend to agree as long as it works.
# [18:17] <dael> fantasai: Anything from Apple or Opera?
# [18:17] <dael> s/trong/strong
# [18:17] <fantasai> <silence]
# [18:17] <dael> glazou: Apperantly not.
# [18:17] * fantasai didn't understand that
# [18:18] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:18] <dael> koji: On the unicode ML was that the spec said everything except default ignorable should be displayed visiable
# [18:18] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:18] <dael> koji: So if we go and display the discussion might not stop there and we'd need more
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: What else?
# [18:19] <koji> http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/DerivedCoreProperties.txt
# [18:19] <dael> koji: Unicode says desplay everything that isn't default ignore. If you look at ^ url you have the list of default ignorable
# [18:19] <fantasai> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/index.htm
# [18:19] <dael> koji: So characters with glyphs assigned, there's be plenty to display
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: I thinkw e display those in chrome.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: We do unknown glyphs. Same for FFF. sometimes there's a glyph in the corner.
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: Unless there's more to discuss, I'd like to move on
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: My take-away is we'll change to say control characters are displayed unless mmicrosoft says otherwise. Is that correct?
# [18:20] <dael> group: yes
# [18:20] <dael> Topic: Flexbox Issues
# [18:20] <dael> glazou: There's 3 in the agenda
# [18:20] <fantasai> Since Apple and Opera have no opinion and Mozilla is strongly in favor
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: First, in the last F2F we thought that phraseing abspos text with the position as a point vs as a box are eq. but they're not due to safe positioning
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: If safe is on there's a difference between where it displays witht he old text and the current text using points to align.
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: In the old text if the box was really big it would shift to the side, but now it stays truely centered.
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: This might not be aproblem, we're not sure. We're brinigng up that there is a difference we didn't know about before. WE plan to review the abspos text in general and make it better, so we may review then
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: We're just brining up that some change may be needed and need approval.
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: So which way is the text and what's the planned change?
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: We pos the child as it's the sole item in the flex and that gave us a box to position in. The new text was that the sttic pos should be a point and rephrase in terms of finding a point and aligning the abspos to that.
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: b/c the old text honored safe align and the new doesn't, we're not sure which to handle and which we want to end up with in order to make sure it's specified clearly
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now the only definition is unclear about exactly what the static position is
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen_: So you're suggesting we need to clear up what the staticpos means?
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we'll need to do that unless fantasai included a simplier approach. It's a hey we'll need to revisit this as we narrow things down.
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Next issue
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: This needs discussion. We disucessed that flex-basis: auto is odd because it overlaps with width so you have to say flex-basis: auto and width: auto
# [18:25] <fantasai> This is the issue : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0008.html
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: It's also wierd that computed and used of auto mean something different.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: We discussed renamining flex-basis: auto. WE provisionally are using main-size
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: We're leaving the short hand as is because it's used to widely.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: So is the name change okay and does anyone have the ability to track what the actual usage of flex-basis: auto is and if it's paired with non-auto width
# [18:26] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:27] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aagg
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now chrome is showing a disterbingly high number. I think a lot of torotrials ignored our note not to use. Hopefully there's isn't much paired with non-auto width because that'st he realy problem.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: If anyone has a way to track this, that would be awesome. If not, we might just change and see how much breakage there is.
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Any thougths or suggestions better than main-size
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_: This is in the current ED?
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_: I was looking at it and...
# [18:28] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaii
# [18:28] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Do you see it now?
# [18:28] <abinader> Zakim, ??P17 is me
# [18:28] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
# [18:28] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_: Yeah.
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_: That sounds pretty good.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [18:29] <dbaron> I'm happy with the change assuming it sticks.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: If there's no obj for now we can stick with it and if someone comes up with a better idea, post to the ML thread
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen_: So to clarify you see a bunch of flex-basis usage, but can't track values?
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen_: I'll see if I can run a quiry
# [18:30] * Quits: cwdoh_ (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: If you can, check to see if you can find flex-basis: auto paired with non-auto width
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It would be good to know how much flex-basis: auto there is, but we also what to know how much will change when we say it's auto not look at width.
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: Is this a change fairly soon?
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: We just changed the spec yesterday. There's no impl yet.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: The other name option was match-size
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I didn't like it because it seemed to imply that it should look at another element, but it's not a strong objection.
# [18:31] * dbaron thinks match-size is slightly shorter than matchbox
# [18:31] * dbaron thinks match-size is slightly shorter than matchbox-size :-)
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen_: I think main-size is good. I'm sure there will be a lot of action once we get close to another round of calls. Then we'll get 10 other names
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: Seems people are happy witht he general content
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen_: Yes.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: so resolve accepting the change pending usage data and future bikeshedding?
# [18:32] <dael> glazou: Any obj?
# [18:32] <dael> RESOLVED: accepting the change pending usage data and future bikeshedding
# [18:33] <dael> glazou: Next one?
# [18:33] <dael> s/accepting/accept
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Next is fantasai or dbaron?
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_: There's another flex?
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: No, there were just 3 links
# [18:33] <dael> Topic: How far from bases should ruby text be?
# [18:33] <dael> fantasai: dbaron do you want to do this on the ml?
# [18:34] <dael> glazou: gregwhitworth sent this, but sent regrets, so I think we should move to item 5 for now.
# [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0486.html
# [18:34] <dael> Topic: Selector Parsing
# [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron^: yeah, let's discuss on ml
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: The issue is that the unicode range token we just discovered has a long running source of potential bugs
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> div u+a { color: read; }
# [18:34] <fantasai> s/sent this/sent item 4/
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay, pretend that was a real color
# [18:35] <fantasai> s/read/red/
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: This looking like div with a u decendant and an a sybling. This parses as a div ident
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: and then a white space
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: then a unicode range token witht he value a
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: This happens any time you have an underline tag slector followed by a syb combinator followed by a-f
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: So the selector will be invalid accidently
# [18:36] <dael> glazou: So does that mean current browsers fail?
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Chrome and firefox at least call that invalid, IE does not. Selector parsing is defined loosly. At least 2 browsers consider it invalid
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: This is with CSS minifiers that removes space around combinators except in this one case.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Suggestion is to fix this by killing the unicode range and instead use something like <An+B>
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll be just as ugly and complex, but we know it's possible and you can't put one together that works.
# [18:37] <fantasai> I am strongly in favor of doing this.
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is the right way because it's an odd parsing case taht doens't look like anything else in CSS>
# [18:38] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:38] <fantasai> unicode-range is only used in one place in the entire language, shouldn't be causing problems anywhere else
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I can see how special purpose tokens can cause problems here or in the future.
# [18:38] <bkardell_> let's just get rid of <u> :)
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: So I way we replace with a production and make sure the two spec that care, font and font-loading, get updated appropriatly
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I think this is a good idea.
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Some people on thread seem okay, but I want to head obj
# [18:39] <dael> glenn: Do you haev a concrete prop for replacement syntax? You said something like <An+B> I was wondering if you have actual proposal
# [18:39] <leaverou> +1 for the change
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I have it in my head, but not in the spec. If I have difficulties I can bring it back tot he list
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: We have people in favor. Anyone not?
# [18:39] <bkardell_> +1
# [18:39] <dael> glazou: I'm in favor
# [18:39] <glenn> +0
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: It seems like a bunch of work to impl so we may not do it immediatly and may do a patch and latter do it the right way. It's easy to fix doing context-dependant.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: It's easy with implementations, but I'm for solving it.
# [18:40] <dael> dbaron: Context-dependant tokenization is worth avoiding in the long run.
# [18:41] <dael> RESOLVED: Remove the unicode range token from syntax and replace with a unicode production similar to <An+B>.
# [18:41] <fantasai> Update CSS Syntax, CSS Fonts, and CSS Font Loading accordingly.
# [18:41] <dael> glazou: That was shorter than expected. Rossen_ can you do greg's item?
# [18:41] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: I think TabAtkins was saying he has something to say.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I have an agenda+
# [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: So let's do that and if we still have time I'll talk
# [18:42] <dael> Topic: TabAtkins 's +
# [18:42] * fantasai also has agenda+ for display: contents
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is a resonable request, such as when I'm doing a large text and want it bigger but not bigger than the screen. It should be sized in viewport units, but not larget han the viewport.
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: It seems reasonable, but I'm wondering if there's issue
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a min and max property and you resolve in the same way max and min are done. If it violates max, resolve and if it violates min resolve again
# [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: So in my case if you want really big text, but not overflow.
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I think this is reasonable to have. The only alt is if we introduce max and min functions so you can put it inline.
# [18:43] <leaverou> {min,max}-font-size have been requested quite a lot by authors
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: I agree with solving with either the property or the max/min
# [18:44] <tantek> copyfitting!
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: They're not incompatable. We could always add the scond later
# [18:44] <dael> dauwhe: Is there accessability concern?
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: I think the opposite. Min font size can be useful so that whatever fancy units don't get smaller than 15 px
# [18:44] <dael> dauwhe: It sounds like this could help the ebook world.
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: So are there any obj or any reasons why we haven't adopted this becides the possible duplication?
# [18:45] <hober> max-font-size: 80vh; min-font-size: 12pt;
# [18:45] <dael> ??: I'd be interested in seeing how we're supposed to use it. So min size is so it stays readble, but your'e resolving on max?
# [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Min wins all conflicts. That matches existing
# [18:46] <dael> ??: If you're doing the example from leaverou 12 would be favored?
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: You use the font size prop to set and this places a limit
# [18:46] <dael> ??: So you use all three in combo?
# [18:46] <fantasai> s/to set/to set the font size/
# [18:46] <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: Yes. You set min max and font size and know that when you set the font it will never go above or below your min/max
# [18:46] <fantasai> s/font size prop/font-size property/
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Keeping the same sematics as min/max width seems sensible. max prevents overflow and min prevents unreasonable smallness so for accessiblility honoring min when it conflicts max is sensible
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai do you object to the prop, or want to give another try to funt?
# [18:47] <tantek> do we have font-size:auto yet?
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: No, it makes sense. You may want to do things seperatly, so seperation gives better usability
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: cool.
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
# [18:48] <fantasai> s/min max and font size/min max on the document and use font-size to set the font size throughout the document, knowing that/
# [18:48] <dael> RESOLVED: andd min and max font-size properties
# [18:48] <dael> s/andd/add
# [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Is John still fonts editor?
# [18:48] <tantek> nice - well done all
# [18:49] <dael> glazou: He asked to leave temporarily.
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# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: then I can do editing.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: Fonts is in CR so do we add to 3 or 4?
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: I think the syntax should be level 3, but this is a new feature. Maybe toss it in an ED?
# [18:49] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
# [18:49] <dael> MaRakow: Elsewise we'd have to go back to LC?
# [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, until we remove LC as a level.
# [18:50] <MaRakow> s/MaRakow/??
# [18:50] <tantek> new ED, implementations, test cases, interop, slip it into a Fonts CR iteration
# [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: So I will add the properties to an ED that I will start and whenever we made the edits, we'll make sure they happen on the 3 CR. If we do this right it'll be informative change.
# [18:50] <dael> glazou: So if there's a new ED, we need a resolution. Any obj to start a new ED for Fonts 4?
# [18:51] <dael> RESOLVED: New ED for Fonts 4
# [18:51] * fantasai thinks she agrees with tantek in this particular case, it's a slight enough addition
# [18:51] <dael> glazou: I guess that closes this issue. Anything in the last 9 minutes?
# [18:51] <dael> Topic: display: contents
# [18:51] * tantek thinks we should just keep bending the process until it breaks, and then you can hand the breakage to me to go fight in the AB ;)
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins and I were discussing and TabAtkins brought up we have display-box that takes non, normal, and content. The purpose of splitting was to create a dedicated switch for turning on/off
# [18:52] <glazou> tantek, kill section 2.5.1 please
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: This violates that goal. So it's the same prolem as witht he display. So the proposal is to move content out of display-box so that it's just about hiding or showing since that needs to be a seperate switch.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: Esp since contents is seperate of display type
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# [18:52] <fantasai> mail describing the issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0023.html
# [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: None also belongs, but there's reasons to leave it. So this is so we can have an item hiddena nd can easily toggle without having to know everything about it
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: We think it would be okay so that whatever property is holding display: none can have mulit hidden. Right now we have display: none that prevents from displaying, and another where it hides, but makes it create them for the purpose of counters and the like.
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: We think we can do mulitple hiding and one shown and stillg et away witht he use case.
# [18:54] <dael> fantasai: I think you don't want multi hiding, but for this discussion, this is just moving contents into the display property
# [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: display is a ED until I finish the edits I was supposed to make in Jan. Since we're going to pub a WD it should be approved
# [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins, display module is already fpwd
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: I don't want you to precive and recieve as a flame, I have a feeling this goes far beyond what web authors will understand.
# [18:55] <fantasai> www.w3.org/TR/css-display-3/
# [18:55] <dael> glazou: I'm not saying we don't need the feature, I think we are reaching levels of complexity in our solutions that are beyond the users ability.
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: I thinkw e need to think more and find something more useable and readable
# [18:56] <dael> dbaron: About what?
# [18:56] <dael> glazou: all the display-* properties
# [18:56] <tantek> glazou, on it: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Process#Remove_2.5.1
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: This is taking a value out of a prop that's basically show or don't show thte box. That's a clear switch that authors want and it needs to be sep from the box display type
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: We're asking to put it back intot he display property
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: When you say show/don't show, you mean effect or don't effect the layout?
# [18:57] <glazou> thanks tantek
# [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: This is the display: none value pushed into a seperate prop
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: But still computes those things inside?
# [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: The normal is no behaviour change. We think we can add a value that does compute inside and just doesn't display
# [18:58] <dael> Rossen_: It's pretty hacky
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# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: That's not what we're discussing now. The issue is we have a prop in a WD that takes these three values. It's show or don't show the box, but it has a value that's a display type. That should be in the display property. We want to move it from the show/don't show the box to the this is how we display propertry
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I just want a resolution on that. We can discuss the rest later.
# [18:59] <bradk> Doh! One hour late.
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: So does anyone object to moving the content property
# [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds like not
# [18:59] <fantasai> s/content property/contents value/
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: It's prob okay. I'm sure we'll revisit.
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Anyone else?
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: You all just really don't case?
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: It's time so people want to go away
# [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a time-out.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: So do we resolve?
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: No obj?
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: Doesn't sound like there's support or objection
# [19:00] <dael> glazou: Yes.
# [19:01] <dael> Rossen_: I don't see why we'd block keep on working. It sound slike they're still going on that spec and we'll be discussing it again
# [19:01] <dael> glazou: That's a suggestion to defer?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: I'd like a resolution that content goes on display or display-box. We have it in the WD and people are apperently there's impl so does this go to display or display none-ness
# [19:02] <dael> SimonSapin: The proposal sounds good. To move it to display prop.
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: Obj?
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: Support? Comments? Everyone can live iwth it?
# [19:02] <dael> Rossen_: For the time being
# [19:02] <fantasai> s/people are apparently there's impl/people are apparently implementing this, according to the last F2F discussion/
# [19:02] <dael> RESOLVED: Move conent to the display property
# [19:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:02] <fantasai> s/conent/contents/
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:02] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:02] <dael> glazou: So this is the end of the call. Thank you and bye everyone!
# [19:02] <Zakim> -AH_Miller
# [19:02] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:02] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:03] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:03] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:03] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [19:03] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaii
# [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
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# [19:03] <Zakim> -abinader
# [19:03] <Zakim> -murakami
# [19:03] <fantasai> Seriously, next time I'm not going to be like "so we want to make this change", I'm going to be "do you want result A or result B"
# [19:03] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Lea
# [19:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were +33.1.34.51.aaaa, glazou, dauwhe, +1.617.477.aabb, fantasai, dael, Stearns, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.240.421.aacc, AH_Miller, adenilson, +1.281.305.aadd,
# [19:03] <Zakim> ... alex_antennahouse, TabAtkins, murakami, +1.206.992.aaee, MaRakow, BrianKardell, plinss, +1.720.897.aaff, glenn, +1.631.398.aagg, koji, dbaron, abinader, Rossen_, hober,
# [19:03] <Zakim> ... +1.631.398.aaii
# [19:03] <fantasai> then people have to *choose*
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# [19:04] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) (bradk)
# [19:07] * fantasai doesn't think "I'm not sure I like your spec, but I'm not sure I don't like it, so I'm not going to have an opinion and I'm not going to say I don't care" is very encouraging to progressing the discussion
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# [20:38] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [20:41] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [20:41] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [20:44] * liam gives fantasai and Understatement Award :)
# [20:46] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [20:51] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
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# [21:41] * fantasai is honored by this award and somewhat surprised at not receiving the Ranty award instead
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# [22:56] * astearns gives fantasai the Ranty award, which is only given to those who complain about not receiving it
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# [23:26] <Ms2ger> Bah, why don't I get one?
# [23:28] <tantek> nice try Ms2ger
# [23:29] * astearns gives Ms2ger the me-too award
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# [23:29] <Ms2ger> :D
# [23:47] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [23:52] <liam> astearns, watch out - http://www.trendski.com/2011/02/academy-awards-longest-speeches.html
# [23:52] <liam> :)
# [23:54] <astearns> liam: while I have seen Ms2ger with my own eyes, I have never actually heard him speak. So it might be worth it.
# [23:54] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [23:54] <liam> :D
# [23:54] <Ms2ger> I think liam has heard me speak, actually
# [23:55] <Ms2ger> At least, if this is the liam with the bare feet from the CSSWG meeting in Paris
# [23:55] <liam> yes it is
# [23:57] <liam> (surprising sometimes how many people remember me for my lack of footwear)
# [23:59] <Ms2ger> It's something easy to identify you by, at least :)
# Session Close: Thu Jul 03 00:00:00 2014

The end :)