/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-07-09 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  20. # [02:29] * plinss changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0127.html'
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  146. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/09-css-irc
  147. # [18:01] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  148. # [18:01] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  149. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  150. # [18:02] <astearns_> zakim must be resting
  151. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  152. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  153. # [18:02] <dael> scribenick: dael
  154. # [18:02] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
  155. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, astearns_, SylvaIng
  156. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, SteveZ, dael, lmclister, glenn_, tommyliu, Alan, {Darktears}, dauwhe, plh, Ms2ger, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, renoirb, abucur__, mvujovic____, slightlyoff__,
  157. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... mihnea___, sylvaing__, astearns_, amtiskaw_____, plinss, projector, shepazu, paul___irish, logbot, shans, fantasai, pdurbin, krijnhoetmer, leaverou, TabAtkins_, ed, hober,
  158. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... birtles, sylvaing, SimonSapin_, kangil_, decadance, alexmog, cabanier, anssik, Teoli__, nikos, _martinwolf, achicu_____, Bert_, Hixie_, gsnedders, krit, cbiesinger__,
  159. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... jacobg_____
  160. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P4
  161. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  162. # [18:02] <SimonSapin_> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  163. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dauwhe
  164. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin_; got it
  165. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P3
  166. # [18:03] * SimonSapin_ is now known as SimonSapin
  167. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  168. # [18:03] <Zakim> I already had ??P4 as SimonSapin_, SimonSapin
  169. # [18:03] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  170. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> whatever
  171. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P11
  172. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Zakim, no, ??P4 is SimonSapin
  173. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand 'no, ??P4 is SimonSapin', Ms2ger
  174. # [18:03] * Ms2ger bah
  175. # [18:03] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
  176. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see dael, astearns_, SylvaIng, SimonSapin_, plinss, dauwhe, ??P3, ??P11
  177. # [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see adenilson, Zakim, RRSAgent, SteveZ, dael, lmclister, glenn_, tommyliu, Alan, {Darktears}, dauwhe, plh, Ms2ger, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, renoirb, abucur__, mvujovic____,
  178. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... slightlyoff__, mihnea___, sylvaing__, astearns_, amtiskaw_____, plinss, projector, shepazu, paul___irish, logbot, shans, fantasai, pdurbin, krijnhoetmer, leaverou, TabAtkins_,
  179. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... ed, hober, birtles, sylvaing, SimonSapin, kangil_, decadance, alexmog, cabanier, anssik, Teoli__, nikos, _martinwolf, achicu_____, Bert_, Hixie_, gsnedders, krit, cbiesinger__
  180. # [18:04] <fantasai> zakim, SimonSapin_ is SimonSapin
  181. # [18:04] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  182. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.617.300.aaaa
  183. # [18:04] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
  184. # [18:04] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  185. # [18:04] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  186. # [18:04] * Joins: kawabata (~uid24584@public.cloak)
  187. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Plh
  188. # [18:04] * fantasai suspects aaaa is me
  189. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glenn
  190. # [18:04] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  191. # [18:04] <fantasai> Zakim, aaaa is me
  192. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  193. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.425.366.aabb
  194. # [18:04] <Zakim> -??P11
  195. # [18:05] <adenilson> That is probably me.
  196. # [18:05] * Joins: murakami (~769ad103@public.cloak)
  197. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hober
  198. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P25
  199. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  200. # [18:05] * Joins: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak)
  201. # [18:05] <kawabata> Zakim, ??P11 is me.
  202. # [18:05] <Zakim> I already had ??P11 as hober, kawabata
  203. # [18:05] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  204. # [18:05] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  205. # [18:05] <kawabata> Zakim, ??P25 is me.
  206. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  207. # [18:06] <adenilson> Zakim: P11 is me.
  208. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P29
  209. # [18:06] * Joins: bkardell_ (~uid10373@public.cloak)
  210. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  211. # [18:06] <Zakim> +BrianKardell
  212. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P30
  213. # [18:07] <alex_antennahouse> I'm probably the "IPcaller"
  214. # [18:07] <murakami> Zakim, ??P30 is me.
  215. # [18:07] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
  216. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P36
  217. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: Let's start. Hello eveyone. Anything to add?
  218. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aacc
  219. # [18:08] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0137.html
  220. # [18:08] <dael> fantasai: There was a message from simon on CSS-background that seems straightforward. If we have time we can look at that.
  221. # [18:09] <dael> ??:I don't have anything, but I was wondering what the policy was. The last item is what I'm interested in and I have to leave early. Any way to shuffle?
  222. # [18:09] <dael> plinss: We can certainly shuffle, but TabAtkins_ is the one that mentioned it and he's not here.
  223. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  224. # [18:09] <dael> bkardell_: We can maybe do it next week
  225. # [18:09] <Zakim> +koji
  226. # [18:09] <astearns_> s/??/bkardell/
  227. # [18:09] <dael> bert: WE started the prep for food and stuff, the room is reserved.
  228. # [18:10] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  229. # [18:10] <Zakim> +dbaron
  230. # [18:10] <dael> bert: I made the page on the wiki with registration. Please fill in your name. the name is needed for network acccess
  231. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> What's that last item? In the car now, so I can talk for a bit in irc.
  232. # [18:10] <fantasai> color parsing
  233. # [18:10] <dael> bert: I put a few hotels around here, but you might want to look in surrounding towns. I don't know if people want rental cars, but you can maybe set up carpools
  234. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> Kk. Of your okay with me being irc-only, I can talk.
  235. # [18:10] * Joins: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak)
  236. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> Also I'm on a phone keyboard.
  237. # [18:11] <dael> bert: If you have any information to share, use the wiki. Or topics for discussion.
  238. # [18:11] <dael> bert: That's all I had to announce. Were there any questions?
  239. # [18:11] <sylvaing__> is there a wiki page for this meeting?
  240. # [18:11] <dael> bkardell_: No question, but thanks for putting it together.
  241. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  242. # [18:11] <Bert_> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014
  243. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins_, are you driving?
  244. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> No. ^_^
  245. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> That's illegal in California.
  246. # [18:11] <dael> bert: The page still has holes to be filled in, but there's some info already.
  247. # [18:11] <sylvaing__> Ah, the page is not yet linked from the meeting planning page
  248. # [18:12] <dael> plinss: Thanks
  249. # [18:12] <dael> plinss: It looks like TabAtkins_ i on IRC
  250. # [18:12] <dael> Topic: Exposing Color Parsing
  251. # [18:12] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0106.html
  252. # [18:12] <dael> plinss: TabAtkins_ sent this in about exposing some functions for color parsing. bkardell_ you said you were interested, do you want to speak?
  253. # [18:12] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aacc
  254. # [18:12] <dael> bkardell_: He said in his e-mail he was planning on looking at deeper integration with CSS OM and I was curious what exactly this might intail
  255. # [18:13] <Zakim> +AH_Miller
  256. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aadd
  257. # [18:13] <dael> bkardell_: According to this you can make your own color format and that means you could expxess color format in ways that we're reflected in CSS or were but what form would they stringify...
  258. # [18:13] <dael> bkardell_: It may be difficult with just IRC
  259. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Ah, the "deeper integration" is what I talked about at the January f2f.
  260. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> The JS Value Objects-based proposal.
  261. # [18:14] <dael> plinss: I presume with your own format it's just stringify and parsing and you'd get a POC format that you could assign directly
  262. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> But that's still blocked on JS, so no need to worry about that for now.
  263. # [18:14] <dael> plinss: Since TabAtkins_ is only partly here, any other opinions?
  264. # [18:14] <dael> plinss: Is this worth pursuing?
  265. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: There's 2 things. One is exposing the parsing of CSS color from a string to RGB numbers and I think that's fine.
  266. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Yup, plinss. "var x = RGBAColor.fromMySpecialColor(foo, bar); el.style.color = x; /* stringifies to an rgba() function automatically */"
  267. # [18:15] <dael> SimonSapin: The new color format, that's adding support for things that would be added in style sheets.
  268. # [18:15] <sylvaing__> TabAtkins, what are 'foo' 'bar'
  269. # [18:15] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  270. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing__: Whatever you want - that's an author-defined function.
  271. # [18:15] <dael> bkardell_: The proposal inc both. It says authors can define their own color format by adding to RGB with appropriate color tags. If we're talking about the prop that's part of it.
  272. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> They explicitly did "RGBAColor.prototype.fromMySpecialColor = function(foo, bar) { ... };"
  273. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> Sorry, scratch the ".prototype".
  274. # [18:16] <dael> plinss: I dont presume those color caps would be embeddible raw unless we really open parsing. This is only for authors programitically for whatever IO format, they can modify style sheets, but not add this as CSS source.
  275. # [18:16] <dael> bkardell_: It seems that if you did thi from the prosp of serialization type, it is worth being able to diff browser native and user defined?
  276. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> bkardell_: I am *not* talking about extending CSS itself (yet). This proposal is just to produce a Color object that has the right hooks that authors can use it for thier own needs, beyond just CSS.
  277. # [18:17] * sylvaing__ is now known as sgalineau
  278. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> (ACtually extending CSS for new color types will wait for custom functions.)
  279. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aaee
  280. # [18:17] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure you'd need to. We have serialization for color so if you do an entire stylesheet it would go back to RGB. It wouldn't attempt another model because they style sheet wouldn't know what that format is.
  281. # [18:17] <dael> plinss: Other op?
  282. # [18:17] <MaRakow> Zakim, aaee is me
  283. # [18:17] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  284. # [18:17] <sgalineau> TabAtkins: ah, check. I thought you were describing a proposal, not a practice
  285. # [18:17] <dael> SimonSapin: Sounds good. Let's do it.
  286. # [18:18] <Zakim> -??P3
  287. # [18:18] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing obj. Let's acept the prop and add to CSS Color 4 or the OM as approptiate
  288. # [18:18] <dael> Topic extrinsic sizing of controls
  289. # [18:18] <bkardell_> tabatkins: I'm wondering really if RGBAColor.serializationTypes would differentiate an author defined serializationType, for example
  290. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> Okay, I was going to ask what spec to put it in. Color works. ^_^
  291. # [18:18] <dael> fantasai: I was looking at the e-mail, I don't htink you meant extensic, I think you meant explicit.
  292. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> bkardell_: It doesn't differentiate, no.
  293. # [18:18] <dael> gregwhitworth: I'm ref to exterior width. I know vendors get antsy about what's on the interior
  294. # [18:19] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0143.html
  295. # [18:19] <dael> fantasai: So extrinisic isn't the word. I think this is in CSS2.1 we spec where the scrollbar goes and takes room. It's not super clear but it spec the Firefox behaviour
  296. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> bkardell_: But the default serializer is rgba(), and having the ability to serialize is distinct from the ability to parse.
  297. # [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Here's the responce.
  298. # [18:19] <dael> rossen: For all I know we have a bug there for not taking scrollbar out of min-width
  299. # [18:19] <Zakim> +??P3
  300. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> bkardell_: Like I said, in the future custom functions should take care of actually extending CSS. For example:
  301. # [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Min-width and width shouldn't be diff
  302. # [18:20] <dael> rossen: I agree I don't think 2.1 has text for that, but I agree the intent is they should be the same
  303. # [18:20] <dael> fantasai: They're def as eq. in their effects
  304. # [18:20] <dael> rossen: Scroll-bar size is taken out of use width
  305. # [18:20] <Zakim> -kawabata
  306. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> Eh, don't wanna write out an example right now. It'll look something like the Custom Pseudo-classes bit.
  307. # [18:20] <bkardell_> TabAtkins_: Yeah, it was mainly about is there utility in being able to thinking about future proposals...maybe I'll comment privately || on ML
  308. # [18:21] <dael> fantasai: min-width effects content box, but we take out the scrollbar once you form a containin block. So the content inside is in a smaller box.
  309. # [18:21] <Zakim> +??P25
  310. # [18:21] <dael> rossen: I think gregwhitworth 's example shows issues with IE and chrome. Other than that I don't think we need spec changes.
  311. # [18:21] <kawabata> Zakim, ??P25 is me.
  312. # [18:21] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  313. # [18:21] <dael> rossen: Unless gregwhitworth thinks otherwwise
  314. # [18:21] <dael> gregwhitworth: I wanted to make sure we're on the same page
  315. # [18:21] <dael> rossen: Point isvalid, we should converge. I thnk the spec is clear and we need to fix bugs.
  316. # [18:22] <dael> rossen: Anything else on this?
  317. # [18:22] <dael> gregwhitworth: Nope.
  318. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Nope. If we want to clarify 2.1 we can.
  319. # [18:22] <dael> zakim, who is noisy?
  320. # [18:22] <dael> topic: CSS Ruby
  321. # [18:22] <Zakim> dael, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P3 (9%), fantasai (69%), [IPcaller] (19%)
  322. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: The update is that we've been working on the box model, partic anon box.
  323. # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I've been doing thaton the list mozilla is impl the rules so we're getting good feedback
  324. # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: My goal is to get Boris to agree the rules are correct and than get a new WD. THere stuff with Ruby layout I haven't drafted.
  325. # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: We've also defined white space by making anon boxes that are similar to exisiting, but they don't pair. If there's pairs, they get paired with anon boxes in another layer
  326. # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: For nested I'm trying to handle with layout rules rather then trying something fancy in box generation.
  327. # [18:24] * sgalineau is someone in a restaurant kitchen?
  328. # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: That'st he overview. If there's interest I can do more details.
  329. # [18:24] <dael> plinss: Okay. No questions?
  330. # [18:24] <dael> plinss: I know everyone is excited about Ruby
  331. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Is there anyone that wants to review taht I should wait for feedback?
  332. # [18:25] <dael> s/taht/that
  333. # [18:25] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  334. # [18:25] <kawabata> I'll check it closely.
  335. # [18:25] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P3 (27%), dauwhe (4%), plinss (33%), fantasai (18%)
  336. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Okay. I'll wrap up edits with Boris and get a check from koroboto-san (sp?)
  337. # [18:25] <dael> Topic: Grid Layout
  338. # [18:25] <fantasai> s/koroboto/kawabata/
  339. # [18:25] <kawabata> kawabata. ;->
  340. # [18:25] <gregwhitworth> fantasai: I do think extrinsic is the correct term per the sizing spec as I don't want controls demensions to be determined by the contents if stated the the author
  341. # [18:25] <dael> rossen: I was in and out and counldn't review.
  342. # [18:26] * dbaron is clearly happy with bz's review of ruby anonymous box rules and doesn't feel the need to review them separately
  343. # [18:26] * fantasai :)
  344. # [18:26] <dael> rossen: I got fantasai e-mail, but I'm just not ready. If we want to make desc I'd ask to postpone. Is this just an awareness, that's fine. But if you want concensus, I'd prefer next week
  345. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: I'll explain, but not resolve.
  346. # [18:27] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  347. # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: For Grid we have 2 prop in any dimnestions there's grid coloumn start and end. These can be lines or a span of this many lines or names lines.
  348. # [18:27] <alex_antennahouse> skype crashed, calling in again
  349. # [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, mute ??P3
  350. # [18:27] * Zakim ??P3 should now be muted
  351. # [18:27] * dbaron thinks ??P3 was the kitchen noises
  352. # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: We have error handling if you spec, for say, a line that doesn't exist. Or a diff case if you're spanning for 5 and there's only 4. We had various rules for different cases for what if you don't have enough.
  353. # [18:28] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  354. # [18:28] <dael> fantasai: What we did was we realized we could have a simple rule that says there's an explicit grid and that's the one you set up. There's also an implicit grid where if you position an item with numbers such that it's no longer in that explicit grid, they're that implicit grid
  355. # [18:29] <dael> fantasai: We decided we could simplify by saying if you can't find a named line, assume that the implicit grid has those lines and count in there. It's simple and consistant.
  356. # [18:29] <dael> fantasai: It can give you odd results, but that's good because it gives you things that are noticibly off.
  357. # [18:29] <dael> fantasai: Those are the main advantages of this new set of rules. We're looking for review from anyone with an opinion
  358. # [18:30] <dael> rossen: I don't see anything wrong witht he approach, I have to sit down and work through the cases and see if this is sufficent.
  359. # [18:30] <dael> rossen: If it is I'm fine.
  360. # [18:30] <dael> fantasai: If you're interested, send you comments, otherwise well close with rossen's opinon next week.
  361. # [18:30] <dael> plinss: It sounds reasonable approach, any times there's an error the author won't get it. I think this is as good as we'll get.
  362. # [18:31] <dael> rossen: I'd better to keep the error as dominat and simple as possible. We don't want the "help" them too much. We want to to be outragious so that it's obviously an error. Let me sit down and I'll have a better opinon next itme.
  363. # [18:31] <dael> fantasai: b/c we have a rule with jsut numbers and not names, if you say 7th and there's only 5, we create a 7th.
  364. # [18:32] <dael> fantasai: If you think of named lines creating an implicit grid, we just do the name thing. We add named lines until you have the right number.
  365. # [18:32] <dael> plinss: The problem is if people are adding named, there's a pattern and the author wll expect a pattern, but I don't htink we want to create an algorythm for that.
  366. # [18:32] <dael> rossen: I agree, especially int he error case.
  367. # [18:33] <dael> rossen: It makes sense.
  368. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: Yep.
  369. # [18:33] <dael> rossen: While we're on grid, related. Do we have anything for flex box? Where do we stand?
  370. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: We fixed a bunch of issues. A lot was responces to change. Some was other noticed errors.
  371. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: There's 2 issues that aren't quite sorted.
  372. # [18:33] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325
  373. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: Here's the DoC
  374. # [18:34] <dael> fantasai: We have an open issue on intrensic aspect ratio items and minimum sizing
  375. # [18:34] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-19
  376. # [18:34] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-16
  377. # [18:34] <dael> fantasai: There was a couple we fixed and need review, I think issue 19. 16 is open. And then static pos stuff we haven't sorted.
  378. # [18:34] <dael> rossen: For the auto postion abspos?
  379. # [18:34] <dael> fantasai: Yeah. That's issue 12.
  380. # [18:34] <dael> rossen: Okay
  381. # [18:34] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-12
  382. # [18:35] <dael> rossen: It doesn't sound far from done.
  383. # [18:35] <Zakim> -??P3
  384. # [18:35] <dael> fantasai: It's those 3 to look through. 16 and 19 need review because they're confusing issues.
  385. # [18:35] <dael> fantasai: I think 16 has comments from dholbert
  386. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P3
  387. # [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Once we're through those we'll have a complete DoC to review with the WG and do a new LC. We really appriciate comments because there's a lot of tricky things
  388. # [18:36] <Zakim> -??P3
  389. # [18:36] <dael> rossen: Thanks. Sorry to hyjack the agenda
  390. # [18:36] <dael> Topic: Korean vs Japanese Justification
  391. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P3
  392. # [18:36] <Zakim> -kawabata
  393. # [18:36] <dael> fantasai: koji is trying to get comments from the Korean community
  394. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P20
  395. # [18:37] <dael> fantasai: There are Japanese and Chinese docs that are fomatted similarly. Korean isn't though. Most modern docs are in hangul, but some have Chinese charaters.
  396. # [18:37] <dael> fantasai: So Chinese charaters are a part of Korean, but not commen. Korean does have spaces and uses spaces to just like Latin.
  397. # [18:38] <dael> fantasai: Chinese and Japanese don't use spaces to justify. What happens in a line of Japaeses you'll have only 0 or 1 spaces and if you use spaces to jusitfy you have huge spaces. Instead you space between characters.
  398. # [18:38] <dael> fantasai: This has created a problem between Korean and Japanese documents where Korean wants to use the spaces to just.
  399. # [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I think one rowser spaces between Chinese and Japanese, but not Hangul which creates some problems. We're looking fro a comprimise that's appropriate for untagged content. If it's tagged you're fine, but when it's untagged that's what we're stuck on. While the spec won't requrire anything, we wanted to have a suggestion
  400. # [18:39] <fantasai> s/problems/problems with mixed-script text/
  401. # [18:40] <dael> SteveZ: Question. Clearly the existance of either Hangul or the various kana in Japanese gives you a hint of the language, but that req pre-scanning
  402. # [18:40] <dael> fantasai: So far we're tried to avoid heuristic detection. If we built that in it would be a sig. paradym shift.
  403. # [18:40] <dael> fantasai: We're trying to avoid heyristic and only rely on tags and prop.
  404. # [18:40] <dael> SimonSapin: Would it make sense to look at lang?
  405. # [18:41] <dael> fantasai: This is when lang isn't present
  406. # [18:41] <dael> SteveZ: Anyone looking at the page could tell you what language. It'll seem strange to the user that they sytem can't
  407. # [18:41] <dael> fantasai: If the WG wants to go that route we can. I think there was a text-script prop before wher eyou auto-detect the dom. script and if it's wrong you can tag, but so far we've avoided auto.
  408. # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: I'd rather encourage people to tag their lang correctly
  409. # [18:42] <fantasai> s/auto/auto-detection/
  410. # [18:42] <bkardell_> +1 to dbaron's comment
  411. # [18:42] <SimonSapin> +1 dbaron
  412. # [18:42] * Joins: taoniud (~uid37335@public.cloak)
  413. # [18:42] <dbaron> s/tag their lang/language-tag their content/
  414. # [18:43] * Parts: Alan (~Alan@public.cloak)
  415. # [18:43] <dael> SteveZ: I think...I agree that haven't tagging on something is the best way to go, but we've already learned people copy from others and do the min to get it look right and I think browsers in Korea may get tuned to make a Korean assumption and it works if you don't take it out of the context.
  416. # [18:43] <Zakim> - +1.425.366.aabb
  417. # [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I think that used to be true, but no longer.
  418. # [18:43] <dael> SteveZ: You think authors are tagging?
  419. # [18:43] <dael> fantasai: I think browsers aren't shipping biased versions of layout versions
  420. # [18:43] <dael> SteveZ: It's not much of a bias to say assume Korean.
  421. # [18:43] <fantasai> s/versions/engines/
  422. # [18:43] <dael> fantasai: It's still a bias.
  423. # [18:43] <dael> ??: There's lang setting in the OS
  424. # [18:44] <dael> fantasai: We don't use the OS because it would make our page look different depending on what computer you're looking at. We want to depand only on page content.
  425. # [18:44] <bkardell_> lang setting comment was me
  426. # [18:44] <dael> plh: Firefox as a fallback basis on local of user. That's legicy and I don't think we should add a new beaviour
  427. # [18:45] <fantasai> s/plh/SimonSapin/
  428. # [18:45] <fantasai> s/as a/has a character encoding/
  429. # [18:45] <dael> plinss: I agree. If we want to encourage authors we can define the default as the worst behavior.
  430. # [18:45] <dael> dbaron: There's enough pages without langague tag that we can't do something horrible, but we can do something like make hyphens not work.
  431. # [18:45] <bkardell_> this doesn't seem horrible if there is no way to tell
  432. # [18:45] <dbaron> s/hyphens/hyphenation/
  433. # [18:45] <dael> fantasai: So we can make spacing look not optimal, but that's the worst.
  434. # [18:46] <dael> SteveZ: So is plinss suggesting something that doesn't work in either and dbaron says that's not an option?
  435. # [18:46] <dael> fantasai: I think dbaron is saying don't break stuff, but you won't get the best behaviour if you don't tag
  436. # [18:47] <dael> plinss: I was trying to encourage authors to tag, which means as little magic and markup as possible
  437. # [18:47] <dael> ??: Can you treat justification so it doesn't work without language tagging?
  438. # [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I think the default should be better where it doesn't work for CJK and does for latin. We can't make it worse than it is. All space sep. lang work now.
  439. # [18:48] <dael> SteveZ: If the current state is it doesn't work for non-space-sep lang. we can leave it to make eople tag
  440. # [18:48] <dael> fantasai: We dropped inter-character value so there's a bunch of pages that spec inter-character, but since we dropped that and assumed auto would handle it, we have to make sure auto does
  441. # [18:48] <dael> SteveZ: This sounds like a problem we made.
  442. # [18:49] <dael> fantasai: A bit. BUt I don't think Firefox supports it so it's not comepletely us.
  443. # [18:49] <dael> SteveZ: WE dropped inter-characcter because?
  444. # [18:49] <Zakim> -BrianKardell
  445. # [18:49] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  446. # [18:49] <dael> fantasai: The arguement was auto should be able to do it. We have a couple of solutions that approx the right thing, but not quite perfect. The discussion is of the possiible comp., what's the best
  447. # [18:49] <Zakim> -??P29
  448. # [18:49] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  449. # [18:50] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  450. # [18:50] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  451. # [18:50] <dael> SteveZ: I haven't thought about it a lot, it seems inter-character should come back
  452. # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: inter-char isn't needed if you tag correctly, but people are using intercharacter to fix their layout, thier pages.
  453. # [18:50] <dael> SteveZ: they didn't understand the effects of lang tagging
  454. # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: yeah.
  455. # [18:51] <fantasai> s/SteveZ/glenn/
  456. # [18:51] <dael> koji: I think I'm tending toward inter-character, but I'm awaiting the replies from Korean community. There's a poss we want it back.
  457. # [18:51] <dael> koji: It may be correct or not, but we need a littler more disctinction.
  458. # [18:51] <dael> plinss: It sounds like we loop back with more feedback
  459. # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: If there's ideas for a comprimise for default rendering, comment on the threat.
  460. # [18:52] <dael> Topic: CSS Background issue
  461. # [18:52] <Zakim> -??P20
  462. # [18:52] <dael> SimonSapin: It's about backgrounds of the canvas.
  463. # [18:52] <Zakim> +??P10
  464. # [18:52] <dael> SimonSapin: What happens if we spec none of visibility hidden. It's not clear in the spec what should happen, but we have strong introp that the BG is still show with display on, but not with visibility hidden.
  465. # [18:53] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  466. # [18:53] <dael> dbaron: There's a test case Hixie wrote a while ago. There was one for display-none and filed it against all the browsers.
  467. # [18:53] <dael> SimonSapin: We should have a corrisponding statement in the spec
  468. # [18:53] <dael> dbaron: Sure.
  469. # [18:53] <MaRakow> Do you happen to have a link to that test case?
  470. # [18:53] <dael> plinss: Okay. Everyone agree?
  471. # [18:54] <dael> Rossen_: Any reference to the test cases?
  472. # [18:54] <Zakim> -dbaron
  473. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0144.html
  474. # [18:54] <dael> SimonSapin: Here's the link with simple test cases.
  475. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> wrong link, sorry
  476. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0137.html
  477. # [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I don't have much opinion, but whatever we do should be consistant with how we do writing mode direction and overflow propagation.
  478. # [18:55] <dael> plinss: If you're in a display: none situation, will any of the prop have an effect.
  479. # [18:55] <dael> plinss: All you'd draw is a canvas
  480. # [18:56] <dael> fantasai: You can detect with overflow: scroll and than it may have an effect depending on propigation.
  481. # [18:56] <fantasai> s/with/
  482. # [18:56] <dael> SimonSapin: Do we only get writing mode direction fromt he root element?
  483. # [18:56] <dael> Rossen_: I think for IE we always propigate from body or HTML
  484. # [18:56] <fantasai> s/than it may/theat might/
  485. # [18:56] <fantasai> s/propigation/implementation/
  486. # [18:57] <fantasai> s/propigate/propagate/
  487. # [18:57] * Parts: cbiesinger__ (~sid8099@public.cloak)
  488. # [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: We treat it the same way tot he root element which HTML spec that we take those and leave body so it has a chance to redefine for overflow or writing. If HTML doesn't have it we take it from body
  489. # [18:57] <dael> SimonSapin: The spec says don't do that.
  490. # [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: Which?
  491. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#direction
  492. # [18:57] <dael> SimonSapin: Link above
  493. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> "Note that the direction property of the HTML BODY element is not propagated to the viewport. That special behavior only applies to the background and overflow properties."
  494. # [18:57] <dael> Rossen_: That spec was written 5 years after we did that impl. Maybe it now says something different, but that's what we do.
  495. # [18:58] <Zakim> +dbaron
  496. # [18:58] <dael> Rossen_: It's interesting that it deviates from how we handle overflow I would expect same.
  497. # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: We had a legacy constraint that we were hoping wasn't there for direction
  498. # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: We wanted authors to tag the root
  499. # [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: If you haven't impl writing-mode, maybe. If you've had it from a long time then you have an issue and if you write ignoring that you can avoid the issue.
  500. # [18:59] <dael> fantasai: This is direction. It's been around since the 90s.
  501. # [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Everyone's impl it.
  502. # [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: Right.
  503. # [18:59] <dael> plinss: Any conclusions?
  504. # [19:00] <dael> SimonSapin: For writing-mode and direction prop this propigation only applies to prinicple writing mode which is only used for paged media
  505. # [19:00] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#principal-writing-mode
  506. # [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: Would you expect different for regions?
  507. # [19:00] <dbaron> s/prinicple/principal/
  508. # [19:00] <dael> fantasai: Regions wouldn't need principal writing mode. It has its own thing.
  509. # [19:01] <plh> (fyi: the note was including in the FPWD of writing modes back in 2010, but it's not part of CSS2.1)
  510. # [19:01] <dael> plinss: We're low on time and should wrap up. I think we agree we want to spec current behavious, at least for background prop. Where is that?
  511. # [19:01] <dael> fantasai: backgrounds and boards 3
  512. # [19:01] <dael> plinss: not 2.1 erratta?
  513. # [19:01] <dael> fantasai: We could do that.
  514. # [19:01] <dael> Rossen_: 2.1 erratta would be nice.
  515. # [19:01] <dael> plinss: So we'll call it 2.1 errata
  516. # [19:02] <dael> fantasai: bert can you do that?
  517. # [19:02] <dael> bert: I can if I know the text. What is it?
  518. # [19:02] <dael> fantasai: SimonSapin can you write one?
  519. # [19:02] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay.
  520. # [19:02] <plh> is it possible to have a test case for this erratum?
  521. # [19:02] <dael> fantasai: SimonSapin will write prop text, we can ratify it, and you can make the errata
  522. # [19:02] <dael> plinss: Anything we want to do with propigation of the other prop, or leave it for now?
  523. # [19:02] <dael> Rossen_: Let's do it separate
  524. # [19:03] <dael> plinss: Okay.
  525. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
  526. # [19:03] <dael> plinss: That's the end of the hour and the agenda. Thanks everyone and we'll talk again next week.
  527. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  528. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  529. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  530. # [19:03] <Zakim> -AH_Miller
  531. # [19:03] <Zakim> -koji
  532. # [19:03] <kawabata> bye
  533. # [19:03] <Zakim> -??P36
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  535. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Plh
  536. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  537. # [19:03] <Zakim> -hober
  538. # [19:03] <Zakim> -fantasai
  539. # [19:03] <Zakim> -astearns_
  540. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dael
  541. # [19:03] <Zakim> -??P3
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  546. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  547. # [19:03] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aadd
  548. # [19:03] <Zakim> -murakami
  549. # [19:03] <Zakim> -??P10
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  553. # [19:03] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
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  560. # [19:05] <Zakim> -glenn
  561. # [19:06] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
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  563. # [19:10] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, SylvaIng, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  564. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  565. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, astearns_, SylvaIng, plinss, dauwhe, SimonSapin, +1.617.300.aaaa, Plh, glenn, fantasai, +1.425.366.aabb, hober, gregwhitworth, kawabata, [IPcaller],
  566. # [19:10] <Zakim> ... BrianKardell, murakami, +1.631.398.aacc, SteveZ, koji, dbaron, AH_Miller, +1.631.398.aadd, +1.206.992.aaee, MaRakow, Rossen_
  567. # [19:11] <plh> zakim, bye
  568. # [19:11] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  569. # [19:13] <SimonSapin> fantasai: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/#propdef-grid-area "Note: The resolution order for this shorthand is row-start/column-start/row-end/column-end, which goes CCW for LTR pages, the opposite direction of the related 4-edge properties using physical directions, like margin.", was there a reason for not making it like physical shorthands?
  570. # [19:14] <SimonSapin> or TabAtkins ^
  571. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> Yes, we discussed that at the last f2f a bit.
  572. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> First, it *is* like physical directions, on RTL pages.
  573. # [19:16] <SimonSapin> eh, ok
  574. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Second, row-start to column-end is a dumb ordering that makes no sense.
  575. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Why do it, then?
  576. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Just straight up, it sounds dumb. And for this case on particular, it's totally dumb.
  577. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: ?
  578. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Because you want to be able to specify the position by itself, typically be placing the start edges, and with the dumb ordering that would require using the first and last of for arguments. With the current order, you just use the first two and omit the latter two.
  579. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I think you misread what I wrote.
  580. # [19:20] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ok, sounds good
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The end :)