/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-07-16 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The grid-auto-flow grammar is confusing and stupid. Lots of weird complexity just to avoid letting people say "grid-auto-flow: dense;".
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> Mind if I just swap the grammar over to "[ row | column ] || [ dense | stack ]", and then talk about it in the prose as defining the auto-flow direction (defaulting to "row" when unspecified) and the auto-flow strategy (defaulting to sparse when unspecified)?
# [00:12] <TabAtkins> Because I think dense and stack really are comparable in effect here, and should be grouped together in the grammar.
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# [17:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't think dense and stack are comparable...
# [17:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think row | column | stack chooses the axis
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# [17:47] <astearns> TabAtkins: I don't get understand how scale seems independent to you when you're applying it after rotate
# [17:48] <astearns> s/get//
# [17:48] <astearns> (I'm not arguing it should be, I just think your new-found 'independence' is less than it might seem)
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# [17:53] * astearns changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0245.html'
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# [17:55] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-css-irc
# [17:55] <plinss> zakim, this is style
# [17:55] <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [17:55] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:55] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aabb
# [17:55] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
# [17:55] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
# [17:55] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
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# [17:56] <Zakim> + +44.203.575.aacc
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.617.300.aadd
# [17:56] <fantasai> Zakim, aadd is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [17:56] <florian> Zakim, aacc is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glenn
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaee
# [17:56] <dauwhe> Zakim, aaee is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
# [17:56] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [17:57] <Zakim> -glenn
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P27
# [17:57] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aabb
# [17:57] * Joins: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak)
# [17:57] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [17:57] <fantasai> woah, the transforms thread totally exploded yesterday
# [17:58] <adenilson> Zakim, P27 is me.
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named 'P27'
# [17:58] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [17:58] * Ms2ger noticed that too
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaff
# [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:58] <adenilson> Zakim, +??P27 is me.
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, adenilson, I do not recognize a party named '+??P27'
# [17:58] <Zakim> +??P31
# [17:58] <alex_antennahouse> I'm that IPcaller I think
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P31 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [17:58] <Ms2ger> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [17:58] <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, dael, plinss, +1.206.675.aaaa, gregwhitworth, florian, fantasai, dauwhe, ??P27, MaRakow, SylvaIng, +1.631.398.aaff, [IPcaller], SimonSapin
# [17:58] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P27 is me.
# [17:58] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [17:59] <Ms2ger> Zakim, [IPcaller] is alex_antennahouse
# [17:59] <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P35
# [17:59] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P39
# [17:59] <abinader> Zakim, ??P39 is me.
# [17:59] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
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# [18:00] * liam zakim, call liam-617
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:00] * Zakim ok, liam; the call is being made
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Liam
# [18:00] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:00] <dael> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
# [18:01] <Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0289.html
# [18:01] <dael> bert: Maybe check the text of the eratta that we created last week? If we can't agree in two minutes we can postpone to another time.
# [18:01] <dael> bert: That's my responce to SimonSapin's message.
# [18:01] <dael> bert: So shall I explain now?
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:02] <Ms2ger> s/eratta/errata/
# [18:02] <dael> Bert: WE decided that in the background of the canvas would not be taken from the root or body if they have display: none. If they have visability: hidden everything is normal
# [18:02] <dael> Bert: SimonSapin was writting the text originally, but here's the text I came up with. I proposed to add two sentences [reads proposal]
# [18:03] * sgalineau s/does anyone have anything to add to the agenda/would anyone like to step in front of the line/
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aagg
# [18:03] <dael> SimonSapin: When you said undefined, does it mean the spec doesn't define or it's not in the bg?
# [18:03] * smfr BEEP
# [18:03] <Zakim> +glenn
# [18:03] <dael> Bert: I don't think we defined...
# [18:03] <Zakim> - +1.281.305.aagg
# [18:03] <smfr> Zakim: who’s noisy?
# [18:03] * MaRakow it's a distress signal!
# [18:03] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:03] * liam zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:03] * liam :) oops
# [18:03] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (20%), dael (9%), plinss (4%), +1.631.398.aaff (10%), ??P35 (62%)
# [18:03] * sgalineau howcome is on his boat. sinking.
# [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ??P35
# [18:04] <Zakim> ??P35 should now be muted
# [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aahh
# [18:04] * Zakim liam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 22 (4%), krit (4%), plinss (18%), +1.631.398.aaff (13%), adenilson (19%), ??P35 (22%), Bert (13%)
# [18:04] * TabAtkins zakim, aahh is me
# [18:04] * Zakim +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:04] * MaRakow or maybe Bert is actually swearing profusely
# [18:04] <dael> bert: SimonSapin qustion was what does bg undefined mean?
# [18:04] * sgalineau yeah Bert swears like a truck driver
# [18:04] <dael> Bert: I didn't find any rule in the spec that says what the canvas bg is other than taking it from the root element.
# [18:04] <dael> fantasai: I think we say it's transparent and it means it's whatever it'll be if everything is transparent. It's treated as bg transparent.
# [18:05] <dael> dbaron: Wasn't the point of agreement last time is that when it's display: none normal rules apply?
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: What?
# [18:05] <dael> dbaron: I thought this errata is backwards.
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: I think if there is not root element box, then bg position is undefined, so we made a root element that's display: none propigate transparent up
# [18:06] <dael> dbaron: Didn't we say all browsers show bg in that case?
# [18:06] * leaverou does anybody else have trouble connecting to the call?
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I thought they said it doesn't
# [18:06] <dael> ??: It's split. In IE if body is non we paint
# [18:06] * sgalineau leaverou, took me a couple of attempts
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: You paint with visibility: hidden
# [18:06] <dael> ??: that could be right
# [18:06] <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
# [18:07] <gregwhitworth> leaverou: took one extra call, it just started ringing again
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: There's 2 options. You propigate transparent up because the box isn't there, or we use original containing block. Most impl use the first option. This is a really wierd case.
# [18:07] <dael> dbaron: Okay.
# [18:07] <fantasai> s/original/initial/
# [18:07] * leaverou been trying for 10 minutes now, but my internet connection isn’t great so it might be that :(
# [18:07] <dael> bert: So I should make next text that says canvas bg is transparent rather than undefined?
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: with display: none on the body, when we propigate do we use the body's dimentions to set the positioning? I don't think so.
# [18:08] * sgalineau leaverou, what exotic locale today?
# [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: It says it's positioned as per the root element. It's strange, but you don't use the body, use the root
# [18:08] <Zakim> -??P35
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: In that case, it's defined to say you propigated up even if it's display: none. I don't know what impl do.
# [18:08] * leaverou sgalineau: haha, just the Greek island of Lesvos, where I’m from originally :)
# [18:08] <dael> SimonSapin: I don't think the prop if there's display: none.
# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P35
# [18:09] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/bert/ (twice)
# [18:09] * sgalineau leaverou, oh so you have a hard time connecting from your greek island { empathy-margin: 0; }
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I would word it as if no box is gen in the render tree such as in the case of display: none since there may be other ways to make something not create a box.
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: I can see your point.
# [18:09] <dael> dbaron: I think if it's not from a root, it should also be not a body
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: That's fine.
# [18:10] <dbaron> s/from a root/propagated from a root element that's display:none/
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: If you work to remove body in html, what would you prop for? Would that me the same?
# [18:10] <dbaron> s/be not a body/not be for a body that's display:none/
# [18:10] <dael> bert: I think the same
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: That's more the case that's likely to happen
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: If you remove an element from the render tree, it renders like it was never there.
# [18:10] <Bert> s/bert/simonsapin/
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen_: So you should display the same way.
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: So if you render with no elements, okay.
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen_: I could have a div.
# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: We don't special case HTML, We special case the root body.
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen_: So If I remove body in HTML and ingect a span with a pink bg that's suposed to propigate up, I don't think that works right now.
# [18:11] <dael> dbaron: I would think that works.
# [18:11] <fantasai> s/root body/root, and we special-case a <body> child of the root/
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: I was paying with something like that and thought there was interop, but I might be wrong.
# [18:12] <dael> plinss: So do we have concrete text?
# [18:12] <dael> Bert: I should re-write after what I've heard.
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: Rossen_ that has to work because you can't have a canvas bg on arbitraty docs.
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: I tried it with that special case with the inline ele and the root.
# [18:12] <fantasai> s/can't/can't otherwise/
# [18:13] <dael> SimonSapin: I think bert's prop is fine with undef. replaced by transparent
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I also want to make the change about not having the box.
# [18:13] <dael> Bert: Let me try it again with those changes.
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: But not having a box doesn't mean you can't get prop. Why would it be the same as no element?
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: We need a box to pos the images inside.
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: Okay?
# [18:14] <dael> Rossen_: umm...okay.
# [18:14] <dael> plinss: So Bert will come back with new text next week
# [18:14] <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/root-box-003.htm
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: Is someone willing to take an action to fix the test in the test suite?
# [18:14] <dael> dbaron: Maybe we dropped it, I have a link [above] but it may be broken.
# [18:14] <dael> action fantasai address the text suite
# [18:14] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:14] <trackbot> Created ACTION-634 - Address the text suite [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-07-23].
# [18:15] <dael> Topic: Error handling rules in grid layout
# [18:15] <dael> Rossen_: We're fine with fantasai and TabAtkins proposal
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: Other opinions? Objections?
# [18:15] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept proposal
# [18:15] * sgalineau lost the internets and is not even on a Greek island. wants his money back.
# [18:15] <dael> Topic: Transforms Shorthand
# [18:15] * Zakim sees Topic:, Transforms, Short on the speaker queue
# [18:16] * Ms2ger lol
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: The prop has evolved fromt he e-mail. It's more we we propose the translate(?). These behave how you would expect in real life.
# [18:16] <dbaron> it would be nice to see the proposal that's on the table and be able to discuss on the list
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: If you have a translate involved it applied after the fact. If we name approp to look like translate, it behaves in a way that behaves according to the author's mental models.
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: It also lets us independantly animate translate and rotate and the like.
# [18:17] <astearns> +1 dbaron - I'd like a new thread with the full proposal detailed
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: We can also maybe later get addititive to work together, but for now this gets it to work in the intuitive way
# [18:18] <Zakim> -??P35
# [18:18] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Final prop grammer isn't written exactly, but I accepted krit prop to build in origan directly to match SVG. So, add the 3 prop.
# [18:18] <fantasai> +1 to dbaron from me, too
# [18:18] <sgalineau> +1 astearns, dbaron.
# [18:18] <dael> ??: Is this proposal to make the prop independant instead of multiplying?
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Those are the same
# [18:18] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:18] <dael> ??: There's magic from krit that confused me
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: I think anyone that is familiar with this is getting lost because these are trated independant and sep. You can impl them by turning them into sep.
# [18:19] <dael> ??: So you can't so a rotate and translate and get the same thing.
# [18:19] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:19] * dbaron gives up
# [18:19] <plinss> s/??:/smfr:/
# [18:19] <astearns> they are independent *only if* you specify that schmscale operates in the rotated coordinate result of the schmrotate
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Ignore your previous knowledge. Scaling from an origan gets the same thing.
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: You have a translate and a rotate?
# [18:19] <leaverou> Like I said on the list, strong +1 to Tab’s proposal
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: The implicit ordering..
# [18:20] <dbaron> leaverou, which of tab's proposals?
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: That ordering makes them look not connected.
# [18:20] <dael> smfr: Spen needs to say they're in an order. In impl terms they're not ind. Users expect independant.
# [18:20] <sgalineau> There is more than one proposal variant so not sure what Lea says +1 to :)
# [18:20] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not just for simple. If users use one thing they work. If they're trying to use more then one, they function seperately. This will be you translate an element, you rotate and element and these are sep.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: I think this prop needs to be written fully and the shorthand prop in it's entiretly should be there so we can compare.
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Their feedback because the current prop. The shorthandling prop doesn't work that well.
# [18:21] <astearns> I vote to kill the shorthand proposal preemtively
# [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: I've disavowed the original.
# [18:21] <sgalineau> fantasai +1
# [18:22] <MaRakow> +1 to writing it up, I'm confused.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Write it up and start a new thread. The thread is in lots of sub threads.
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: It's al getting people to understand it's not transforms.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: So get a new clean proposal.
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine with me.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Okay. And then we can discuss next week.
# [18:22] <SimonSapin> thanks fantasai :)
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: dbaron you were trying to make a point?
# [18:23] <leaverou> dbaron: Mainly, I just think the problem needs to be addressed. I haven’t made up an opinion on the specifics to be honest.
# [18:23] <dael> dbaron: I was trying to say it's no where ready to discuss. This is a massive thread with lots of prop and we need to know what we're talking about.
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. I can pull mine into a sep thread.
# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: After you draw up your prop, address the other options and explain why tehy're not addressed.
# [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that could be confusing because it will draw in concepts that don't need to be considered. I'll draw something up, we don't need more call.
# [18:24] <fantasai> s/addressed/being considered anymore/
# [18:24] <dael> Topic: CSS Color Classes
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: So last week we accepted color classes. I wrote them up and wanted to get review. The prop evolved a bit from the wiki. leaverou pointed out that people might want to manipulate in the color speace. Such as they might want to tweek the hue a bit and with my previous that was hard. I sep into diff color classes, one for each syntax.
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: They nterop well and I've gone to some effort to make sure it's easy to extend for authors.
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: If they want a new color class it's pretty easy to do and there's guidance in the spec for how to do that.
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: So I wanted review.
# [18:25] * sgalineau is offline until further notice
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Final bit is naming. Names are all short and easy to work with.
# [18:26] <leaverou> Where is the updated proposal? I can only see the original one in http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/color-object
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Hopefully they're fine, but may clash with author names. I think that's fine. I think if they clash they'll over-write. It'll be hard to mix old and new text.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: RGBcolors clashes with a DOM level. THat' clashes with us and webkit. I've been advicating for us to drop if possible. I explained the difficulties in the e-mail.
# [18:27] * plinss leaverou: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#apis
# [18:27] * leaverou thanks plinss!
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think the name will be a problem. I think if you didn't impl DOM lvl2, that's fine. If you did you can change that to something dumb and phase it would.
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we need a res.
# [18:27] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [18:27] <dbaron> I think we already agreed to deprecate (or worse) those interfaces
# [18:28] * Joins: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak)
# [18:28] <dael> Bert: RGBcolor is DOM 2, but it's CSS2 primitive. Does firefox and blink explose?
# [18:28] <leaverou> I still don’t understand why we need separate classes for color models that are just a transformation of RGB.
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we do. It's easy to obtain an RGB color value object assuming it's and RGB or Hex color
# [18:28] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: You can do an RGB color in Blink. However, usage is miniscle.
# [18:28] <Bert> s/bert/krit/
# [18:28] <SimonSapin> s/Bert/krit/ (I think)
# [18:29] <dael> leaverou: I don't understand why we need spec classes for color models. Why can't we modify the hue.
# [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: RGB colors dont have hues.
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: If you try and expose the union of all poss prop, you have clashes. Hex and % don't work together. HSL and RGB have no conflicts, but if we do something like HWB, the B conflicts. WE can expand, but that's less good.
# [18:30] <dael> leaverou: So for ex if you have RGB and you parse another color in and want to mod hue, do you have to keep comverting between the two...
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: Why would you convert just for the purpose of hue?
# [18:30] <dbaron> Firefox does have the RGBColor interface -- it's only exposed for computed style, though
# [18:31] <dael> leaverou: You might have RGB and want to change hue, but want to remain in RGB. It's the same color space, but a different way to refer.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: You have to adjust anyway. The conversion incures a bit more cost, but it's not huge.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: ONce you're adusting hue, you jsut want to use HSL
# [18:31] <MaRakow> +1 to leaverou
# [18:31] <dael> leaverou: Wouldn't it be more convenient if you can adjust hue in same color class w/o conversion.
# [18:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure it's work unioning. We end up with namespace issues.
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: It makes what you're doing less clear.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: I think you just call it red green and blue
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: But people are use to RGB. I think JS exposes as RGB.
# [18:32] <dael> MaRakow: Maybe jsut white and black?
# [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: But then you have H White and Black
# [18:32] <dael> leaverou: HWB is just whiteness and blackness.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: B clases with Blue.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't want a full name, because saturation and lightness aren't short. They're not easy to type.
# [18:33] <bradk> I wouldn't mind using .blue and .black instead of .b
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: If we're abbv one, we should abbv all since they're well established.
# [18:33] <dael> leaverou: But if you're typingt he whole word, isn't it easier.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It is easy to use.
# [18:34] <dael> leaverou: But you seem to think if you want to modify saturation or hue, you don't want to do it in RGB. You seem to think you should convert.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: So you think people would want to first adj the color and then the saturation?
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: You wouldn't want jsut and RGB.
# [18:34] <dael> leaverou: I'm saying they're the way of presenting the same data so I don't know why we're not making them the same model.
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: I understand and agree, but I obj to practical considerations.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: I think leaverou should write up and alt prop. and submit it as a reply to your proposal. I think leaverou has a bunch of valid concerns and we're not getting anywhere.
# [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: So we still need to address the RGB color naming issue.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: WE can do a different name. Let's poll at another point.
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm saying are we okay changing a depicated interface's name.
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Other opinions?
# [18:36] * fantasai defers to dbaron
# [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to changing the DOM level 2 name.
# [18:36] <bradk> .brightness is probably more clear than hsb.b anyway.
# [18:36] <dbaron> I think the objections would come from web content that breaks rather than from people who don't like it.
# [18:36] <fantasai> bradk, agreed...
# [18:36] <dael> smfr: This seems like a slippery slop to exposing more in JS. Is that something we want to do? I know color is special, but is this worth it for just colors.
# [18:37] <glenn> yes, i object to changing name of RGBColor interface
# [18:37] <fantasai> dbaron, I kindof see you as a representative of sensibleness wrt breaking web content :)
# [18:37] <leaverou> I think ultimately exposing all CSS values to JS would be valuable, but there is a more pressing need for some (e.g. colors) than others
# [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure. We could expose a bit more, but we don't want to go too far. All this could be exposed by a better OM that I prop in Jan. All this is backfill and we'll expose everything in several years. We can avoid most of the pressure, but colors are really common.
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Lots of people write color classes and it's common enough that it's worth exposing. There may be some others like maybe parsing links. Maybe gradient, that's an edge. I think we can maintain a high bar of what to expose so we don't write alternate OM for all of CSS that we replace in a few years.
# [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now color is all I'm interested in.
# [18:38] <Zakim> +SylvaIng
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: I think we can write pieces we're interested in now and integrate them in 6 months.
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Ultimatly what we do will be incompat witht he entire OM prop. It can look similar, but not be the same.
# [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: That's in a timescale that we can adjust the bits we're designing now to fit in better with other things
# [18:39] * sgalineau yes, my cat was playing with the wires coming out of the cable box. AND?
# [18:39] <dael> plinss: So going back to class name, so at some point we need to embrase JS modules. So if we have a naming conflict, this might be the time.
# [18:39] * fantasai that needs to shift up above TJ's comment
# [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: We haven't impl this just yet.
# [18:40] <dael> plinss: No one has impl this yet either. It's dependancy
# [18:40] * leaverou sgalineau: LOL, my kitten keeps doing that too
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know how soon we'll want to do modules. We will eventually need to go into the web IDL.
# [18:40] <dael> ??: I do obj to changing the name of RGBcolor.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Why?
# [18:40] <dbaron> s/??/glenn/
# [18:40] <astearns> s/??/glenn/
# [18:40] <dael> glenn: It's impl and deplyed.
# [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: And on it's way out.
# [18:41] <dael> glenn: When it's gone we can revisit, but until then I object.
# [18:41] * sgalineau leaverou, it's extra funny when you're on the phone with the cable company and find the cat tangled in there. 'So none of the LEDs are on but there is a cat in there. is that normal?'
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. WE can address in the thread.
# [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: We can move on.
# [18:41] <dael> Topic: Animations Issues
# [18:41] <sgalineau> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25667
# [18:41] <dael> sylvaing: So theres a bunch of stuff. A few feature requests.
# [18:41] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0376.html
# [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: Someone was asking about a new animation timing keyword for boucning effects. I think for level 1 we defer unless there's a strong opinion.
# [18:42] <smfr> defer
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: On defering it?
# [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: Yes.
# [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah, I think that's fine.
# [18:42] * Quits: taoniud (~uid37335@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: So any objections?
# [18:42] * leaverou sgalineau: Hahahahaha! One trick is to distract them with straws, they love playing with them just as much as with cables
# [18:42] <dael> RESOLVED: defer to level 2
# [18:42] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0282.html
# [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: Next is also a prop feature that I think we should defer.
# [18:43] <dael> sylvaing: This one is interesting because it's about timing. You can see in the ex if you ask for a 3 step animation, the last step may not be visable because yougo forward. They other overshoot the animation.
# [18:44] <dael> sylvaing: TabAtkins prop some syntatic sugar. I agree with someone that said the name isn't clear. It deos address the problem. There is a problem, I'm not sure this is the solution. I think this is level 2
# [18:44] <leaverou> +1 for step-mid, I’ve ran into this issue a few times as well. One of them was actually yesterday!
# [18:44] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with level 2. I'm assuming that'll happen at some point. A diff name is segment function.
# [18:44] <dael> Bert: I think at Paris F2F we resolved...at a key time this should already be...let me open an image.
# [18:44] <astearns> s/Bert/krit/
# [18:44] <krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/images/cumulative-transform-graph-1.png
# [18:45] <dael> krit: Maybe something different. This image you can see each step sets a new frame. The next step is the new frame. In your ex it seems the 60 fram should appear.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're not doing a fill-forward and jsut taking an element that should do something over 6 seconds and goes away, the current bahviour makes it jump past 0 or makes it go away right at 60. So you'd have to overshoot to 80 to make the 60 appear. If you're doing fillfoward, you're fine.
# [18:46] <dael> sylvaing: There are ways to do it, but the default doesn't get you what you want.
# [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: It's all achievable, but to do it it's slightly hacky.
# [18:46] <dael> sylvaing: So any obj to moving this to level 2?
# [18:47] <dael> sylvaing: Then maybe we can see if there's obj to starting level 2
# [18:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we should start level 2. Usual practice is to have level 2 only as a div spec that only maintains the changes.
# [18:47] <dbaron> s/div spec/diff spec/
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: So, backing up. Obj to defer to lvl 2?
# [18:47] <dbaron> yeah, a diff spec for level 2 sounds fine
# [18:47] <dael> RESOLVED: Defer to level 2
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: So any obj to starting level 2?
# [18:48] <dael> sylvaing: I can start on it. Level 1 gets priority.
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: WE can also do a wiki to collect things. Maybe start with a wiki and then once you have time to spec do that.
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Is that a resource issue, or are you obj?
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: I'm not obj. I'm just offering a quick way to sketch.
# [18:48] <dael> RESOLVED: Begin work on Levle 2 of Animations
# [18:49] <dael> s/Levle/Level
# [18:49] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0054.html
# [18:49] <dael> sylvaing: This one is minor. It's a comment from krit about ambig when you repeat animations. I prop to just accept the edit. I think that's obvious, but want to make sure.
# [18:49] <dael> sylvaing: So I'll let people read.
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Everyone fine with the edit?
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: I'm assuming you're okay with it?
# [18:50] <dael> sylvaing: I'm okay with it. In this case the 3 sec animation takes over.
# [18:50] <dael> RESOLVED: Accept the edit
# [18:50] <sgalineau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0248.html
# [18:51] <dael> sylvaing: Next one is more itneresting. It popped up a few times and Brian mentioned it recently. I started editing already. It has to do with a start time of an animation when yous tart an animation and there's no @keyframe yet. So do you start when you have the keyframe or a different time. I think it's when you have both the animation prop and the keyframe.
# [18:51] <dael> sylvaing: I think you start from the beginning when you have both.
# [18:52] <dael> sylvaing: I think in some impl if you insert the keyframe later it didn't start.
# [18:52] <dael> sylvaing: So if you start animation with foo 0sec and keyframe at 10sec it starts.
# [18:52] <dael> smfr: So does the snapshotting rule come into play and you have an animation with no keyframe?
# [18:53] <dael> sylvaing: So you're asking if an animation has run and then you mess with keyframes do you start at the beginning?
# [18:53] * liam has to drop off
# [18:53] * liam zakim, drop liam
# [18:53] * Zakim Liam is being disconnected
# [18:53] <Zakim> -Liam
# [18:53] <dael> smfr: When you define as a set of keyframes, is it just the @keyframes block rule, or do they have to be valid keyframes within?
# [18:53] <dael> sylvaing: I think to start you need animations and a matching @keyframe
# [18:53] <dael> smfr: So empty @keyframe is okay?
# [18:54] <leaverou> can’t hear what’s being said very well, but fwiw I think it’s much more author-friendly to play the animation when the @keyframes rule is inserted, instead of nothing happening. Whether it starts from the beginning or not, don’t think matters that much
# [18:54] <dael> sylvaing: Yes. and if you start adding @keyframes later, it doesn't restart.
# [18:54] <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaff
# [18:54] <dael> smfr: Right, okay.
# [18:54] <dael> plinss: Is this at all in web animations spec?
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know.
# [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure what's in the web animations.
# [18:54] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:55] <dael> dbaron: What's in an @keyframes rule is pretty CSS specific, so I suspect it's not.
# [18:55] <dael> plinss: I haven't looked at the keyframes part of web animations. I'm just wondering if there's ways to affect through the API. I jsut want the specs to stay consistant.
# [18:55] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:55] <dael> sylvaing: Web animations wanted the nothing happens if you insert @keyframes after. I'm not sure entirely, so I'll check with them.
# [18:56] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:56] <dael> sylvaing: I hd one more. Can we resolve that insert @keyframe rule if it wasn't there starts an animation?
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: So is there objections?
# [18:56] <dael> RESOLVED: insert @keyframe rule if it wasn't there starts an animation
# [18:56] <leaverou> besides the case where the @keyframes rule is inserted through JS on a webpage, it also applies to authoring environments like dabblet that update the page as the user types
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: I'm assuming the remaining is more than 30sec?
# [18:57] <dael> sylvaing: It'll take a few minutes. We can do that next time.
# [18:57] <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aaaa
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:57] <Zakim> -abinader
# [18:57] <dael> plinss: That's it for this week then. I won't be here next week, but I think glazou will be back. Bye!
# [18:57] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:57] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [18:57] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SylvaIng
# [18:57] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [18:57] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:57] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:57] <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [18:57] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:57] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:57] <Zakim> -Lea
# [18:57] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:57] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:57] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:57] * Quits: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak) ("")
# [18:57] <Zakim> -florian
# [18:57] <Zakim> -dael
# [18:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:57] <Zakim> Attendees were krit, dael, plinss, +1.206.675.aaaa, +1.631.398.aabb, gregwhitworth, +44.203.575.aacc, +1.617.300.aadd, fantasai, florian, glenn, +1.917.207.aaee, dauwhe, MaRakow,
# [18:57] <Zakim> ... SylvaIng, +1.631.398.aaff, SimonSapin, adenilson, alex_antennahouse, dbaron, abinader, Bert, Liam, SteveZ, [Apple], +1.281.305.aagg, +1.281.305.aahh, TabAtkins, Lea, Rossen_,
# [18:57] <Zakim> ... BradK
# [18:57] * Quits: alex_antennahouse (~458c94ae@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
# [18:57] * Parts: bradk (~bradk@public.cloak) (bradk)
# [18:57] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [18:58] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:59] <leaverou> TabAtkins: are you in the room btw?
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> yeah
# [19:00] <leaverou> quick question
# [19:00] <leaverou> according to the current state of the Values spec
# [19:00] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:00] <leaverou> is attr() supposed to be used in url()?
# [19:00] <leaverou> or is it not allowed there?
# [19:00] <fantasai> shouldn't be allowed there
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> ...depends.
# [19:01] <fantasai> (makes no sense to allow it there)
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> As of a few weeks ago, it's allowed, with the changes to Syntax we agreed on.
# [19:01] <leaverou> I know there’s a url type (I think), but I’m interested in the cases where you concatenate strings with an attribute value
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> You can't concat strings in CSS, though.
# [19:01] <leaverou> that’s great, I think that would be very useful once it’s implemented!
# [19:01] <fantasai> I don't think that was intended as a change
# [19:01] <fantasai> ...
# [19:01] <leaverou> what about content: “foo” “bar”; then? Is that only for the content prop?
# [19:02] <fantasai> that's only for the content prop
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It falls out by virtue of making url() a function that takes a <string>.
# [19:02] <fantasai> string concatenation doesn't work, generally, in CSS
# [19:02] <leaverou> I see
# [19:02] <leaverou> do you think it wouldn’t be useful?
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> Possibly, sure.
# [19:02] <fantasai> seems like it could be, for attr() and variables!
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> Need some use-cases, is all.
# [19:03] <fantasai> but it's not a thing we have right now
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> And one of the biggest ones wasn't possible until just recently (urls).
# [19:03] <leaverou> the one I had in mind right now (but pretty sure I’ve come acrodss many more) is attr() values in data URIs. That would be super useful for SVG urlencoded data URIs
# [19:03] <leaverou> and not just attr() values, also variables, even counters
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> counter() is just a <string>, so sure.
# [19:04] <leaverou> yup
# [19:04] <leaverou> introducing a function for it would be awful though. too many parens!
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> Gotta be like calc. I'd oppose adding new generic syntax to properties. :/
# [19:05] <leaverou> yeah, I suspsected as much
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> Sass has a concat function. Seems to be okay there.
# [19:05] <leaverou> Not sure why, as SASS accepts concatenation with +
# [19:05] <leaverou> never had to use the concat function in SASS
# [19:06] <fantasai> we could probably do string concat with +
# [19:06] <fantasai> it's unambiguous cuz of quotes
# [19:07] <fantasai> Values L4 ? :)
# [19:07] <leaverou> wouldn’t it require changes to the syntax spec too?
# [19:07] * fantasai unsure
# [19:07] <leaverou> TabAtkins would know
# [19:08] <leaverou> I haven’t been following that spec at all
# [19:08] <fantasai> I don't think it would affect anything
# [19:08] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:08] <leaverou> then it would be great!!
# [19:08] <fantasai> unless Syntax for some reason chokes on plus signs
# [19:09] <leaverou> if there’s no ambiguity, wouldn’t that be a bug in Syntax?
# [19:10] * fantasai scans 2.1's gramar
# [19:10] <fantasai> 2.1 looks like it handles it fine
# [19:10] <leaverou> yay! :D
# [19:10] <fantasai> so it would in fact be a regression
# [19:11] <leaverou> should I send something to the list? has it been discussed before?
# [19:11] <fantasai> alright, goals for the next week: css3-background DoC and css3-text DoCs complete...
# [19:11] <fantasai> leaverou: no, hasn't been discussed, please send it tagged for values 4
# [19:11] <leaverou> ok, will do!
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> No, Syntax has no problem.
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> The only thing it does with + is combine it with a number if the next character is a digit.
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Otherwise it's just a delim.
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> Syntax doesn't "choke" on anything. ^^_
# [19:12] * fantasai didn't think so
# [19:12] * fantasai thought that was an xplicit design goal
# [19:12] <fantasai> , v&u looks old, too
# [19:13] * fantasai can't remember why we haven't republished
# [19:13] <fantasai> republish all the things next week? :/
# [19:14] <fantasai> might be possible if I end up spending Mon/Tue/Wed at the office
# [19:14] <TabAtkins> Let's do it.
# [19:14] <fantasai> ok, we'll try :)
# [19:14] <fantasai> unless my cousin needs help
# [19:14] <leaverou> :)
# [19:14] <leaverou> I had another question if you guys have a minute
# [19:14] <fantasai> in which case, that takes priority ^^
# [19:15] <leaverou> hope your cousin is ok fantasai
# [19:15] <fantasai> I think she's doing great atm, but might need help around the house next week
# [19:23] <leaverou> so, my other question was, has a content() / text() function been considered (=the element’s text content as a string)? Are there implementation roadblocks for something like that? Authors often end up duplicating the element’s text in data-content attributes due to the lack of such a function
# [19:24] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:25] <fantasai> leaverou: I think there's one in gcpm
# [19:25] <fantasai> leaverou: We'd probably want to revive css3-content and put such a thing in that, thouh
# [19:26] <leaverou> good, I thought there might have been implementation issues blocking it (like with the :contains() pseudo that was removed)
# [19:27] <SimonSapin> I don’t think this would have the same kind of perf problem as :contains()
# [19:28] <leaverou> why?
# [19:33] <SimonSapin> when content() is used and some text changes, you only have to re-compute the computed value that involve content(). :contains() is a selector, so it could trigger restyling large parts of the document
# [19:34] <SimonSapin> and selector matching is expensive
# [19:35] <leaverou> ah, I see
# [19:35] <leaverou> thanks!
# [19:36] <SimonSapin> but now that I think about it, content() with dynamic updates could still be more costly than what we have so far in CSS
# [19:36] <SimonSapin> so I don’t know :)
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# [19:48] <leaverou> SimonSapin: Wouldn’t the same issue exist with attribute changes? We already have attr()
# [19:51] <SimonSapin> leaverou: with attr(foo) you only need too restyle the element whose attribute changed
# [19:52] <leaverou> I see. if that’s such a huge concern, maybe we can add something that only takes into account the text nodes that are direct children of the element in question
# [19:52] <SimonSapin> with `:contains(foo) *`, potentially the entire document
# [19:53] <SimonSapin> content() is different though, so I don’t know how much of a problem it is in practice
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# [21:03] <liam> leaverou, there are several variants of content in gcpm (w3c and whatwg versions too), and in whether the element is removed from the flow when you use it (Håkon's original proposal) or whether it can be just copied, and whether you get a string or (more usefully) a structure
# [21:04] <leaverou> this isn’t only useful in print media though...
# [21:04] <liam> the structured one, element() gets used for running headers and footers e.g. if you have mathml in the title of a chapter or article
# [21:05] <liam> no, i agree
# [21:05] <liam> there are other things in gcpm that aren't print or paged media or even generated content specific really, it was a sort of dustbin :)
# [21:05] <dauwhe> The element() in the current ED of GCPM is problematic, because the name is used elsewhere.
# [21:06] <leaverou> yeah, I remember that :P
# [21:06] <leaverou> liam: I was in that F2F :P
# [21:06] <liam> leaverou, yes, I rememberyou there
# [21:06] <liam> (the *third* time I ask someone's name I usually remember it!)
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# [21:11] * liam prefers concat() to overloading + by the way, as it reduces surprises
# [21:12] <liam> and for content: I'd really like to be able to generate a sequence of individually-styled css boxes, as today for print you end up with divspanitis
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# [21:22] <fantasai> liam: do you mean like overflow: fragment; or like Bert's templates?
# [21:23] <liam> probably more like templates
# [21:23] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:23] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [21:24] <liam> e.g. consider, for a table of contents, Chapter 6, _Argyle Socks_ . . . . . . . . _page_ 92
# [21:24] <liam> where the row of dots and the italic page and the 92 come from a single "a" element using content: leader() " page " counter(page, attr(href))
# [21:25] <fantasai> that... doesn't require anything more than basic Generated Content
# [21:25] <fantasai> GCPM can do that already
# [21:25] <fantasai> don't need templates for it
# [21:25] <liam> so today it's <ul class="tocentry">Chapter 6, Argyle Socks<a href="#c6">92</a></ul>
# [21:26] <liam> if you don't mind extra elements you can indeed do it now
# [21:26] <liam> and that's not really a big deal for print today as there's not I think an expectation that exactly the same HTML would work for print, epub, Web
# [21:27] <fantasai> toc generation is fairly complicated
# [21:27] <liam> but, if you want to apply letterspcing to the dots in . . . (with leader) and/or colour them differently, and have _page_ in italic and the page number in roman, I don't see how to do it from the markup I just gave
# [21:27] <fantasai> I'm not sure it really belongs in CSS, either..
# [21:27] <liam> yes
# [21:28] * liam is planning to write up back-of-the-book index generation soon too; it's complex but there's already an extension to CSS to do it for XSL-FO
# [21:29] <liam> i'm not suggesting generating the toc markup in css
# [21:29] <fantasai> I'm somewhat of the opinion that tocs and indices are better off done as a transformation that affects the DOM
# [21:29] <liam> indexes are typically done with a transformation, yes, but then you have to do part of that based on rendering output
# [21:29] <fantasai> yes
# [21:29] <fantasai> target-counter() etc. should help with that
# [21:30] <liam> e.g. socks, argyle: 7, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28, 32
# [21:30] <liam> should read, socks, argyle: 7, 26--28, 32
# [21:30] * fantasai nods
# [21:31] <liam> yeah, we're close to being able to do it
# [21:31] <shepazu> oh Wise and Powerful TabAtkins, do you have some time to chat?
# [21:31] <liam> but again styling the entries (e.g. definitions in bold, refs to figures in italic) may need some thought.
# [21:32] <liam> fantasai, at any rate that doesn't help me with letterspaced dot leaders in content: leader() counter() without having the counter letterspaced
# [21:33] * fantasai glompfs shepazu
# [21:34] <liam> shepazu, rescue fantasai from liam :-)
# [21:35] <fantasai> liam: I think, actually, that one would generally want to controll the spacing of leaders independently of letter-spacing anything else
# [21:35] * shepazu doesn' t know what a glompf is, but enjoys it anyway :)
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# [21:35] <liam> fantasai, yes, that's the point :)
# [21:37] * shepazu hugs fantasai, how are you?
# [21:37] <liam> it turns out the implementations i'm using cope with makrup like page<a href="#c6"> so you just add elements as needed
# [21:37] * fantasai helpfully notes that glomp is generally defined as a flying-tackle-hug
# [21:37] * fantasai is good, but is cut off from half the internet
# [21:37] <liam> also, if you check mount -a, you'll see that /user/fantai/glomps/shepazu is mounted with type glompfs
# [21:38] * shepazu liked fantasai's adventures in the Far Orient on FB
# [21:38] * fantasai notes that FB is one of the Forbidden Realms
# [21:38] * fantasai therefore can't post there
# [21:39] <fantasai> also, Thais really like selfies. My hosts therefore helpfully documented *everything* with pictures
# [21:39] <fantasai> ^^;;
# [21:39] * shepazu wonders where fantasai is now, and whence and whither?
# [21:39] <fantasai> <-- is usually too lazy to bother with photos
# [21:39] <fantasai> next stop, London (via Frankfurth)
# [21:39] <shepazu> go Frankfurther!
# [21:40] <fantasai> heh
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# [21:55] <shepazu> where is a TabAtkins when you need one?
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# [21:58] <TabAtkins> Doing wineries with friends all day, so not available to chat.
# [21:58] <shepazu> TabAtkins, ok, have fun, let's chat another time
# [21:59] * leaverou is now known as leaverou_away
# [22:11] <shepazu> fantasai, what's the right way to propose a new feature to the CSS WG?
# [22:11] <shepazu> public email list? blog post?
# [22:12] <shepazu> showing up to a CSS WG f2f with C4 strapped to my chest and a sweaty trigger finger?
# [22:12] <liam> w3t meme of course!
# [22:12] <shepazu> I should have guessed
# [22:12] <liam> (email + blog post seems common approach)
# [22:13] <liam> i.e. plain text email with background info/use cases on web if needed, but can't assume everyone will go look.
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# [22:28] <shepazu> liam, yeah, good suggestion
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# [22:37] <dauwhe> liam: have you seen http://www.princexml.com/forum/topic/1756/index-generation-using-princexml-8
# [22:37] <dauwhe> liam: folks creating indexes with collapsed page ranges in Prince, with JS
# [22:39] <liam> dauwhe, yes
# [22:39] <liam> Mike Day calls it a "creative hack"
# [22:41] <dauwhe> it certainly required lots of clever workarounds where Prince didn't support particular JS constructs.
# [22:41] <dauwhe> what could CSS do that would make that kind of thing easier, without reinventing XSL or something like that?
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# [22:43] <liam> well, we don't have to reinvent XSL-FO since we still have it :-) and the indexing stuff isn't about flows, just retrieve-marker and collapsing ranges really
# [22:44] <liam> we think the xsl stuff works for most cases
# [22:45] <liam> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-xslfo20-20120117/#d2e22830
# [22:48] <liam> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-xslfo20-20120117/#d2e23280 has a couple of example indexes [not, not indices :-)] and 7 properties; I think CSS would end up with fewer properties because it has :before/:after and content:
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The end :)